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Sales, Swaps, Auction & Approvals/Approvals Disc. : Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

 

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rrraphy
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Retired Consultant APS#186030

28 Feb 2022
02:15:00am
Moving on from the Fog...

This has been a hot button of mine, for some time. World-wide Books are often very well put together, but some are also a complete disorganized mess.
World-wide was initially banned as a category. Now, they are popular with sellers and can be an excuse for a Book of random floor droppings stuck to pages.

World-wide DOES NOT mean anything goes. The rule governing World-wide is very SPECIFIC:

"C19. All items in any approval book must be directly related to philately and [b]be in the chosen approval book category[/b]. World-wide and other non-listed categories must be posted in the "World Wide" category, [b]and must be neatly arranged by country and/or topic.[/b] "



Worldwide, AND neatly arranged by country or topic.

-----------

While I am at it, here is something that would also help, with very little effort on the part of the sellers: It is an old rule that was removed, I am not sure why.

It said (I am paraphrasing as I don't have a copy of the old rules): The title of the Approval Book must clearly describe the content of the book. It also said that the title should be specific, and bracket the content so as to direct the buyers, without forcing them to look at each page.
This was meant to discourage titles such as "Europe" or even "Russia" (which has 8000+ stamps listed), or "Nicaragua" (5000+ stamps) and encourage putting a better description of content, such as content, year-ranges, condition (m, or used) etc...(eg: Russia 1940-1950, used). I would really like to see this rule about the Book TITLE description re-instated and enforced. The description is for the Buyer!

The Stamporama experience should be a positive one for Buyers, as well as Sellers. It can be, with very little extra effort. I have heard too many time the excuse that you don't have to look at... if you voice an objection. How about fixing what is broken, as well as enforcing what is being ignored.

rrr....

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BrightonPete
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Praying for Ukraine

28 Feb 2022
07:25:51am
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

The other thing I notice is the description of the book. One word doesn't say a thing to me!

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

28 Feb 2022
07:47:15am
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

any chance you could include the object of your annoyance in your message, or are you trying to recreate the experience of having to look hard in the stock card yard? Save us some time and effort, which I thought was your goal.

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Brechinite

28 Feb 2022
08:33:02am

Auctions - Approvals
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

As a point of interest.

The amount of space in the Book Title space is too short.

I tried a more descriptive title but could only get "Switzerland Sets, Used, 2002 to 1990, Pro Juventute Sets Used, 1995 to". I was unable to put in 1978.

Yet my title only took up half the space of the bar visible.

Therefore some better descriptions may be limited by the system.

OK you can get it all into the book description but that doesn't help the buyer when searching for books in the New books section.



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BrightonPete
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Praying for Ukraine

28 Feb 2022
09:11:43am
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Au contraire, mon ami, Ian! I look for countries of interest to me then look in the book description to see what is included. "Mix" doesn't tell me anything, but "Switzerland Sets, Used, 2002 to 1990, Pro Juventute Sets Used, 1995 to 1978" would tell me a lot!

Are other members that rushed to look at what's inside that they miss the description?

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BrightonPete
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Praying for Ukraine

28 Feb 2022
09:15:14am
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Why isn't the title JUST the country name or topic?

The description line is for just that - the description of what is included in the book!

That's how I have always viewed it.

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rrraphy
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Retired Consultant APS#186030

28 Feb 2022
03:09:54pm
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Dave, having already felt the wrath of objections to my being specific in my criticism, I will not do so (except in private).

1. As far as disorganized World-wide books, just search on keyword worldwide and look at the chaos. How difficult is it to take a handful of 100 stamps, sort them by topic or country before sticking them on a page. This will also avoid the scattered multiple copies issue. But I bet you, no one is doing so to annoy me, just they are not aware of the rule, and this was feared which is why we banned worldwide. Policing worldwide is a LOT of extra work for the moderator. Note that "rule bending" is being done due to lack of knowledge. I had never experienced anything but cooperation when I explained the rules to sellers listing Approval Books. Sellers were all cooperative, (even the few who were technologically challenged). Unfortunately, bad example breeds more bad books, so you need to work with the few problem listers, from the very beginning.

2. As far as my suggestion for the title guideline, SOR discarded the old rule guidelines for Title Description, so I cannot blame anyone listing today for being creative, or self serving, or mysterious. First I suggest we re-institute a guideline and a rule for the title. That was my suggestion. Most books titles are fine, but some....At Wits End

Ian is correct that the title length is truncated. This was done for a reason. In the early days, we saw titles that were "~10" lines long, with life stories and superlative adjectives (a no no) in the title! Title was becoming an advertising promotion. Length also made the listing very unruly, and tacky. So a limit was instituted, and a specific un-doctored description was required. You can use abbreviations to describe the content clearly and precisely.
Alternatively, Tim could increase the length allowed for the title, I have no objection, except more work for Tim, but I am in favor of having it capped, and still on the short side. It is a title, not a life story.
I think you can work around the limitation we currently have, but I do admit Ian that it is restrictive.

Once we have a clear Title rule or guideline in place, then Dave, I will gladly and privately point to books that would benefit from the title "police". Right now to re-iterate, we no longer have a rule or even a guideline for the title description.



rrr...

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StampCollector
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28 Feb 2022
04:37:41pm
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Somehow I get the feeling that members think that since they pay a fee they should be allow to use the site as they please.
Give them a warning and if that fails, delete the unruly book.

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michael78651

01 Mar 2022
12:16:26am
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

"I tried a more descriptive title but could only get "Switzerland Sets, Used, 2002 to 1990, Pro Juventute Sets Used, 1995 to". I was unable to put in 1978."



Using abbreviations, removing unneeded punctuation marks and using symbols instead of words helps cut down on the wordage, for example:

Swiss Sets Used, 2002-1990, Pro Juventute Sets Used, 1995-1978"
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Brechinite

01 Mar 2022
04:25:22am

Auctions - Approvals
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Aye Micheal, yes it could be done as you suggested but I was trying to make the point that the Book Title space is restrictive.
The more information that is put in the title the better it is for Buyers. Especially as there appears to me more space available for the title in the New Books section with the new layout.
I am not suggesting that it should be increased by lines and lines of extra text but an extra 10 characters would not go amiss.

I know that the book description can accomodate numerous characters but this is only seen when one clicks onto the book.

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Jansimon
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collector, seller, MT member

01 Mar 2022
08:30:51am

Approvals
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Wer Großes will, muß sich zusammenraffen:
In der Beschränkung zeigt sich erst der Meister,
Und das Gesetz nur kann uns Freiheit geben.


(He who’d do great things must display restraint;
The master shows himself first in confinement,
And law alone can grant us liberation.)

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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michael78651

01 Mar 2022
12:13:23pm
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Ian, my example saved 13 characters/spaces.

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ConnieB
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01 Mar 2022
02:40:49pm

Approvals
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Sorry. I'm guilty of not reading the WW rule recently or closely when I created my recent WW approval book. I will correct my errors.

With so many areas causing worry and aggravation in our lives these days, this situation does not need to add more chaos and irritation. I'm sorry to have offended anyone. Peace, generosity, kindness, honesty, integrity, and enjoyment of good stamps are the characteristics that I hope people will notice in me and in the work I do.

In the interests of peace, please don't quickly jump to publicly using labels that malign others and their intentions.

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rrraphy
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Retired Consultant APS#186030

01 Mar 2022
03:04:19pm
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Ian: re

"I was trying to make the point that the Book Title space is restrictive.
The more information that is put in the title the better it is for Buyers. Especially as there appears to me more space available for the title in the New Books section with the new layout.
"


It is restrictive, by design Ian. Yes we could ask to add 10 or 20 spaces, but it is more work for Tim. I don't think it warrants a high priority number!

I think you can easily work around the limitation we currently have even if it is a tad bit restrictive.

rrr...

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Brechinite

01 Mar 2022
07:02:10pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

rrraphy:- No worries as our Australian cousins say.

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Soundcrest
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02 Mar 2022
09:33:04am

Auctions - Approvals
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

I suppose its just me but I really don't see much of a difference between a mish mash book in no order with a title of Worldwide and a mish mash book in no order in a book called German Commeratives for example. I will be the first to say I do not know how people collect and mount their stamps. When I actively collected Germany, I used Scotts Germany albums and had home made pages for the Germany Michel listed stamps. I had a couple of German revenue albums as well. If I were to go back into Germany it would be for Michel listed stamps and Norton revenues (just one of the revenue catalogs ). Assuming there were such stamps in any of the German books out there (5 of 6 people that have books have no catalog numbers) I would miss them. This is due to what I see on page one. If there are no numbers, I'm done. This is because my home made pages have no pictures on them so I would have to dig out my reference books to see if what the person had in their book was a Michel S282 (my catalogs are all marked up as to what I have). Do I know what a Michel S282 looks like? No. Put the number S282 on your listing and I would double check to see if it was actually that stamps based on the description and you then have a sale if it matches. Yes there are dozens of catalogs and no size fits all. If there was a move to go to a universal catalog (Stampworld) on this site I would not be adverse to it. Its free to everyone and I use it quite often as well as Colnect because I cannot afford all the catalogs from every publisher. (I'd love to be able to afford a Higgins & Gage and a complete Barefoot catalog but its not going to happen.) Yet, if I put a Stampworld catalog number into a listing, It does not even get a view for the most part.

People are fairly successful in selling out of worldwide books vs books that have a more descriptive title and as long as that is the case, I do not think anyone will change their practices, unless the w/w books are dropped if they have more than a couple of countries in them. The books are helpful for the times that you have any kind of colony issues, be it French or British. Likewise the missing catalog number. If people are successful sellers without them, they will not use them, though it boggles my mind that people can look up a stamp to see what it is worth, but not use the number on the line in the book. I tried the worldwide books a few times to see if people would purchase from them that normally do not buy my auctions. Like most of my tests of late, this one failed as well. No new buyers. So, for me anyway, worldwide books, even with every single stamp/set identified is not worth the effort. I also tried British in alphabetical order with all stamps for 10 cents each. Nope. Yes about 40% but that's not much better a result than a regular book that I do put catalog numbers in. So, I'll stick to the way I do approval books - and just hope I picked countries that there is an interest in. I will now go back to work for the day......

Greg

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cardstamp
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02 Mar 2022
10:45:16am

Approvals
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Just two observations after reading thru all of this:

In all of the years creatingg and selling with approval books here - I NEVER USED THE WORLDWIDE category. I can not even think of a case where I would even want to use it.

I always try to use a meaningful book description by at least putting in a date range of what is included in the title. If the country is limited in nature (such a Mozambique Company) there would be nothing else to add to the title.

Steve

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rrraphy
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Retired Consultant APS#186030

25 Apr 2022
12:21:43am
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

As of now, of the newly listed Approval books 42 are Worldwide, out of 87. Some do state WW and some state nothing of value to the buyer, such as Number 5 or just a date, but they are WW as well.
None of the WW sellers (except a handful) has organized the material except in a totally random fashion.

To say that I am disappointed with the direction Approval has continued to evolve, under this lack of management would be understating my feelings. Seems like I am one of the few who still seem to care.

Soon I will shut up but it is just a shame to see this once unique product encouraged to spiral into mediocrity.

rrr...

This is our Rule governing WW:

"C19. All items in any approval book must be directly related to philately and be in the chosen approval book category. World-wide and other non-listed categories must be posted in the "World Wide" category, and must be neatly arranged by country and/or topic.
"



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Brechinite

25 Apr 2022
05:39:26am

Auctions - Approvals
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

35 of these worldwide books that rrraphy is highlighting is from one seller.

I have always said that as long as 10% or less of the Approval Books listed are in the Worldwide category then we should be able to cope and allow Worldwide Books.

Last week Worldwide Books were 12.5% of the total and today it is 15.6%

The figure is now above 10% then maybe we should re-think this category.

As a first step may I suggest that the Management Team spend a little time enforcing Rule C19.

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

25 Apr 2022
09:21:45am
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

on your last posting, I privately wrote you and invited you to send me the URLs for those things that offended your sensibilities. CRICKETS!!!!

Instead of spending your time ranting, why not help those who are willing to work with you.

if your intent is to protect the sanctity of the approvals, then facilitate that. If it's just to get out your annoyance for the world to see, carry on.

David

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Brechinite

25 Apr 2022
09:43:42am

Auctions - Approvals
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

amsd:- are you berating me or rrraphy or both?

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rrraphy
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Retired Consultant APS#186030

25 Apr 2022
12:25:47pm
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

amsd: How hard is it to look at the first page of every WW or undefined titled Approval Books? For heaven sake, it takes less time than my copying just one or a few of the 42 URL.
Stop passing the buck. When I report, I get shut off. When I complain, I get admonished. It takes less time to look at a few first pages of Approvals than writing me private messages. But it does not solve the issue which is inherent to having a catch all category. My complaint is about the policy that allows it, not the sellers, who may not know better.

Want to simplify the task of the moderator, who currently is doing nothing, just eliminate WW as was initially set up, for a reason, and enforce a requirement that books should have titles describing accurately the content and be organized. Books should follow our categories, which include some grouped categories, such as Other Europe, Middle east etc...and not be poetic title puzzles.

Ian: 10% ww is your number, but if there were a way to easily verify that they are organized as per rule C19, I could live with it, or even a higher number as long as the content is described on page 1 and organized. But that is NOT going to work. Not without a lot of work by inexistant moderators.

The problem is that WW, as we have now (for reasons that escape me, it was conceptually not allowed for cause), needs inspection of every page for rule C19 to work.
And clearly we don't have moderators with this kind of time on their hands, or motivation, and moderated for a long while, I know it is too much to ask. So I say it is time to go back to basics and require books to fit our categories system and not bridge across groups, while WW or non specific books are not allowed. And the title should describe the content specifically. Voila...moderators can go back to sleep, or do other tasks of higher priority, after a simple rule change, and a brief enforcement phase.

Incidentally WW books with 24 pages and with 24 S/S are less offensive than books with 10 pages of randomly thrown stamps on the pages, bottom of the shoe box and floor droppings could, for some, be a good description. But even 24 pages of S/S of FDC or whatever "large items" should be grouped in some form of order and fit into a limited number of categories. Duplicates should not be scattered etc,,etc... still a moderator nightmare. As a volunteer organization with few moderators, let us make their life easier!

Let's go back to our earlier rule.

rrr...

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d1stamper
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25 Apr 2022
12:44:57pm

Approvals
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Do the auctioneers look after the Approval books or just the Auctions.


The page listing of the management team only lists people looking after the Auctions.


Doug

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

25 Apr 2022
12:55:43pm
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

we do both, Doug


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d1stamper
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25 Apr 2022
01:11:13pm

Approvals
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Maybe it time to make a change. Take on another volunteer to look after only Approval books.

Doug

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michael78651

25 Apr 2022
07:27:43pm
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Are you volunteering, Doug?

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hfbaker
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25 Apr 2022
09:34:52pm
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Out of curiosity, I took a quick look at the word wide approval books. Quite honestly, I don't see a problem. Most of the books are organized by country and many of them are selling quite well. I see a lot of desirable material being offered at very reasonable prices. Even the disorganized books contained a low percentage of common material.

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DannyS
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25 Apr 2022
09:57:26pm
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

I think we are getting a bit over-agitated by WW books. I guess there is quite a bit of work put into even unsorted books. Just the scanning must take a lot of time. Best to just look on these unsorted books as being similar to trays of loose stamps dealers put out at stamp shows. At 5 cents a piece I find it hard to take umbrage. If you have time and you find it relaxing look through a few WW books. If they cause your blood pressure to rise, stop immediately and find something else to look at.

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cougar
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28 Apr 2022
02:30:33pm
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

" I really don't see much of a difference between a mish mash book in no order with a title of Worldwide and a mish mash book in no order in a book called German Commeratives for example."



Based on the way I collect and organize my stamps, there is definitely a difference.

A book titled "Germany" I may not even open, unless it is very recent used stamps listed.

With the WW approval books posted , there are a few things to keep in mind:

1. The seller probably saw a good trade off between spending time organizing stamps and checking their catalog values, and listing them all at 5 cents a piece. In the lot there are possibly stamps from obscure countries and places which could not be listed in any other way, except in the Auctions section.

2. Considering the above, you night be able to find stamps you need in these books, that you will not find elsewhere and you may get them at a bargain price.

3. The disadvantage for the buyer is, they receive a large lot of unorganized stamps that will take a longer time to clear off the desk and put away into albums, stockbooks or glassine envelopes.

4. For the seller, the disadvantage is that they cannot get top prices for their stamps and likely many will remain unsold. I believe that one can sell a higher percentage of stamps in approval books organized by country and period , as opposed to listing the same stamps in a mish-mash book, and achieve better pricing too.
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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

30 Apr 2022
12:18:31pm
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

We are going to try an experiment....

Doug (D1Stamper) will serve as an auctioneer in the approvals area for three months. He will concentrate on the tidying the place up a bit.

Doug will have full authority of an auctioneer.

in our conversations, he has indicated that he will be aiming to keep all new books upstanding, organized.

Welcome him and please let him get his feet wet before writing with anything other than your congratulations and thanks.

David

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michael78651

30 Apr 2022
01:40:02pm
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Welcome, Doug. David will send you a kevlar jacket in a couple of weeks.

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philb
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30 Apr 2022
05:07:20pm

Auctions
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Is David in supply now ?Happy

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collector, seller, MT member

30 Apr 2022
05:59:15pm

Approvals
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Is it kevlar nowadays? I thought it ought to be asbestos :-)

Welcome Doug!

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dell4c

30 Apr 2022
06:16:57pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Why not poll the members if they want any changes to how the approvals run. I have personally had lots of sales from worldwide books and am offended that an ongoing rant is just causing me more work when the people who I sell to have not registered any complaints. If you want to drive away sellers this is an excellent start on doing it

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Brechinite

30 Apr 2022
06:42:02pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

DannyS post above has something I have seldom seen on Stamporama that I can recall, namely 10 Likes.

Here is his post in full:-

"I think we are getting a bit over-agitated by WW books. I guess there is quite a bit of work put into even unsorted books. Just the scanning must take a lot of time. Best to just look on these unsorted books as being similar to trays of loose stamps dealers put out at stamp shows. At 5 cents a piece I find it hard to take umbrage. If you have time and you find it relaxing look through a few WW books. If they cause your blood pressure to rise, stop immediately and find something else to look at."



I may not agree with the statement BUT I could live with it.
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michael78651

30 Apr 2022
08:18:54pm
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

"Why not poll the members if they want any changes to how the approvals run. "



We are not making changes to how the approvals work. The rules remain unchanged.
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rrraphy
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Retired Consultant APS#186030

30 Apr 2022
09:24:01pm
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Bob (dell4c), As ranter-in-chief At Wits End, let me say that as the only one here who was involved in the concept and the creation of Approval Books at SOR, and as one who also moderated it for over 2 years, I do feel a certain responsibility for keeping this unique platform from falling into utter mediocrity.

Worldwide is NOT the problem. Worldwide without the sellers following ANY of the (relaxed) rules is.


---------------------------------
As a reminder:
C19. All items in any approval book must be directly related to philately and be in the chosen approval book category. World-wide and other non-listed categories must be posted in the "World Wide" category, and must be neatly arranged by country and/or topic.

C20. Each item must be identified by number. The number must be positioned so that it is clearly visible and does not overlap any other item. Numbers should preferably be located on the left side of or directly underneath the item to which it relates.

C21. Multiple copies of an item are limited to three, except for offerings such as: collectible cancellation types, pre-cancels, color shades, etc., and must be placed together on the same page.
------------------------------------------------------

Your books are terrific and have always respected the rules. I never had any problem with them, or books similarly organized.

The problem arises in my mind from the need to check Worldwide Books closely, something our moderators have not done well if at all.
I do understand why, as it takes a lot of time.
That is why Worldwide was a banned category from the Approval Books at inception 5 years ago. We feared that WW books would become excuses for just throwing floor droppings into Approval Books. Some have.

WW was re-allowed later and this was followed by a general relaxation of the books rules, in particular rules about titles, organization etc... have been relegated to suggestions. under "Tips for Better Sales". I suppose it is all meant to facilitate the job of the Approval moderator.

Problem as I see it is one of balancing buyers and sellers conflicting needs, and keeping some standards. If books degrade a lot, fewer sales will result. If we tighten the rules a lot, fewer sellers will post books. The demands on the platform moderator should not be unreasonable as well.

If some of the rules we still have in place were respected and enforced, the ranter-in-chief would maybe shut up Rock On.

rrr...

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02 May 2022
12:26:28am

Approvals
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

I took a quick look at the World Wide books to see what all the fuss is about. My thoughts or comments from what I saw:

1) Please don't post stamps on white pages (background). You need contrast to see the condition of the stamp.

2) A few people just dump their stamps onto the page as if they used a backhoe. Neat and orderly would surely improve sales.

3) A few sellers are cramming their stamps onto a page so almost every stamp is overlapping. Aaarrghh!

Generally most sellers are taking time and care to post their stamps in a orderly fashion. Much appreciated!

Larry

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cardstamp
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03 May 2022
10:41:25am

Approvals
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Since I am someone that has sold thousands of stamps here over the years in Approval Books - I finally decided I need to add my opinion to this thread which I have been following. In all of the years as a seller here - I NEVER Once have created an approval book that was placed in the Worldwide Category. It has been awhile since I took a look at books in that category and I was shocked today to see some of them. If I wanted to do what others have done I could dump about 100 books in a week that look like that. I have thousands of leftover stamps and I could just slap them on pages and create books. I would never do that since I have always followed the rules. For example I may have a handful of stamps left from one country and a handful for a few others but not enough to make a meaningful book of at least 100 stamps - so I just hold onto those stamps until I have enough new material to merge the leftovers to create an appropriate book. It takes me quite some to put together my books and if I wanted to I could just dump everytihng into worldwide like I see others are doing. I have not had anyone complain about my books here in years and I would be open to constructive critisim but I feel kind of upset that I am taking the time to follow the rules and do things in an organized fashion and others are doing whatever they want. That's just how I feel... Steve

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ren437
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03 May 2022
02:35:20pm
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

I have purchased quite a few SOR stamps over the years and most of them have been from approval books. I don't mind looking at worldwide books, but some of them really are a mess. How hard can it be to at least sort out the stamps by country before starting to fill up the approval book?

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psgStamper
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03 May 2022
06:21:38pm
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

As a collector, I do not have a wealth of stamps from a single country that I could fill up an approval book. However, I do have enough stamps from a single country to fill a page or two. I have listed stamps in this manner in the "Worldwide" category where the approval book will contain stamps from several countries. Each page(s) are exclusive to a single country usually with Scott #'s or minimally in Scott order. Each page is also identified as to the country. There are probably quite a few collectors who also cannot readily fill a book with a single country. I feel this is a good use of the "Worldwide" category. As a side note, I must add that I usually do not look at books that are simply a hodgepodge of different country stamps with no order. It is simply too much trouble to try to determine which stamps I might be interested in. Just my two cents worth...
Paul

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Tom in Exton, PA

04 May 2022
07:42:51am
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Simple solution. Start a category called "Floor Sweepings".Big Grin

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Brechinite

04 May 2022
12:23:19pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

We have a saying in Old Caledonia:

"One mans muck is another mans brass"

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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

05 May 2022
11:18:33am
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

i wanted to update folks on our experiment:

Doug has been working hard, looking at approval books. He is telling those with rule-averse contents to make all FUTURE books conform to the rules. He is not asking people to revise existing books.

I know he's having some trouble with some people, and when he encounters that, he's deactivating new books.

As before, i'm asking you to let Doug do his job quietly or with applause and thanks.

David

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philb
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05 May 2022
08:34:57pm

Auctions
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

By all means, let the man do his job .

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06 May 2022
11:31:45pm
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

I hope we do approach regulation with a light touch. When I look through the worldwide books I think there could be other ways of encouraging a more organized way of displaying the sellers wares. A smaller minimum count for single country books could be one answer. This would be especially so with single topic books. Many of the worldwide books could easily supply 25 items of sports, arts, animals and flora. Just a thought on making it easier for members to trade their duplicates and unwanted stamps.

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07 May 2022
12:33:00am

Approvals
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

I disagree Danny, we need to be strict and vigorously enforce the rules. The offending sellers will quickly realize that their efforts were wasted and that the only way their books will be accepted is if they follow the rules. They will get the point really fast.

I just looked at one of the latest High Value Books $$$ created and almost every stamp is damaged. The rule clearly states:

Not contain damaged, altered, fake, counterfeit, etc. items.

I'll reach out to Doug and see if he can do something about it, but this makes me angry that a few sellers figure they can do whatever they want and suffer no consequences.

Larry

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07 May 2022
11:11:40pm
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Larry, my suggestion of smaller minimum counts on the books came from the feeling I have that it would help those members who really do want to just trade duplicates. What we seem to have now is a range of members who range between two extremes. At one end would be those who just enjoy collecting for collecting's sake and at the other would be those whose hobby is the buying and selling of stamps. Neither is wrong and many would fit somewhere in between. This has nothing to do with the condition of the stamps on offer. I see in the current auction we have common low value stamps with obvious problems. On the other hand for many of us there is certainly a place for space-fillers with very expensive stamps. I am one of those who find it hard to discard damaged common stamps, but I do force myself to. If an item is visibly damaged then buyers should ignore it and sellers should display a damaged notification. I suspect we are in agreement on that.

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09 May 2022
02:37:00am

Approvals
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Yes Danny, I agree with many of the things you have said.

Larry

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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

09 May 2022
09:36:26am
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

On damaged stamps, the rules are clear:

C22. Stamps with defects must be identified by entering the word "Damaged" in the description. This includes repairs, thins, creases, pulled or torn perforations, scuffs, tears, stains, extraneous writing or markings in ink or marker (other than owner/authentication marks), etc. Defective items are not permitted in High Value ($$$) Books.

If it's damaged, you must ID it as such. And, really, unless it's a pretty rare stamp, just toss the sucker. Or, as some people have done, use them as resource material in color or paper variations.

David, the auctioneer

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Tom in Exton, PA

09 May 2022
10:53:57pm
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

or send them off to the Holocaust Project to be used in collages!

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HolocaustStamps

10 May 2022
09:43:34am
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Thanks for the plug Tommy!

With Covid winding down (for now) things are opening up again. Too late to get a school involved, so I am working with my local library to set up a space for the summer so kids can just drop in and clip/glue stamps to a template (like a colouring book).

Hopefully I can show some decent progress over the next 3-4 months.

Cheers, Dave.

P.S. Some people have told me "I'd like to donate stamps I don't need, but the US-Canada postal rates are usurious". Just to let you know, Steve Wilner ("cardstamp") has sent a regular envelope stuffed to the one ounce limit (so just requiring the one stamp) - every 2-3 weeks for the past two years or more!

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cougar
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12 May 2022
12:22:31am
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

"I could dump about 100 books in a week that look like that. "



Better have the stamps listed in a disorderly book, than not at all.

The main issues I have had before with approval books were related to poor image quality, white backgrounds, unidentified thins.
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12 May 2022
10:21:20am

Approvals
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Dave,
Thanks - "I think" for sharing my secret of how I send you donations. When I get contacted by the postal authorities for doing this - I know who to blame - someone reading this here may be a "spy" ! Steve

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HolocaustStamps

12 May 2022
04:38:08pm
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

No worries Steve. I think the one person who might have ratted you out is no longer a member.

Dave

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12 May 2022
06:52:46pm

Auctions
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

My Nephews a postal inspector in North Carolina...it paid better than being a State Trooper in Virginia..hes not looking for us..he takes videos of employees unable to work lifting weights in their garage or roofing their house.

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28 May 2022
03:30:06pm
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Well here I am waiting for the Liverpool- Real Madrid soccer match to start, (delayed due to crowd into getting into ground) so thought ok , I'll spend some money on the approvals. Wrong, books disorganised, multiples of the same stamp on different pages, faults not noted.
No mention of whether the stamps without postmarks are mint, mint hinged, previously hinged or used without postmark or gum.
Stamps in absolutely no order despite all being one price.
Really folks if you are serious about selling stamps start at the shop window, my money is staying in my pocket for another day.
Looks like the soccer may be starting, despite the hundreds of fans who are still outside the stadium.

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28 May 2022
04:27:38pm
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

In my experience, it’s uncomfortable to be approval book moderator, pitting yourself against other members, so stay tough, Doug and wear that Kevlar jacket mentioned earlier.

For me the only thing that worked was to simply create form letters that listed what was wrong with an approval book. If a book is not up to snuff, don’t send messages trying to cajole, wheedle, beg or grovel, simply disable the book and then send them the official sounding form letter telling them what rules are not being followed and what they have to do to correct it. If they don’t like it, too bad. You break a rule, there are consequences, end of subject. The book is not activated until it is fully in compliance.

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28 May 2022
05:41:09pm

Auctions
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Its over now Sheepshanks !

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28 May 2022
05:53:06pm
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Yep, Liverpool lost to a keeper who had a brilliant game, behind a defence that really worked well as a team.

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rrraphy
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Retired Consultant APS#186030

29 May 2022
02:52:12pm
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

I understand that we no longer have an Approval Book Moderator.
I would have expected the courtesy of Management to inform the rest of us.

It is a shame, because I noticed some definite improvements for a while, and now once more it is a mess! Thanks Doug for your temporary and effective efforts while you moderated Approvals.

From Sheepshank just yesterday (edited):

"Well ... so I thought ok , I'll spend some money on the approvals. Wrong, books disorganised, multiples of the same stamp on different pages, faults not noted.
No mention of whether the stamps without postmarks are mint, mint hinged, previously hinged or used without postmark or gum.
Stamps in absolutely no order despite all being one price.
Really folks if you are serious about selling stamps start at the shop window, my money is staying in my pocket for another day."




Theresa (Philatelia) , who moderated Approvals for a while said it best (edited):

"In my experience, it’s uncomfortable to be approval book moderator, pitting yourself against other members, so stay tough, Doug and wear that Kevlar jacket mentioned earlier.
..... If a book is not up to snuff, don’t send messages trying to cajole, wheedle, beg or grovel, simply disable the book and then send them the official sounding form letter telling them what rules are not being followed and what they have to do to correct it. If they don’t like it, too bad. You break a rule, there are consequences, end of subject. The book is not activated until it is fully in compliance "

.

What went wrong? And let me add that doing nothing is not a solution.

From JohnnyStamps (edited)

": we need to be strict and vigorously enforce the rules. The offending sellers will quickly realize that their efforts were wasted and that the only way their books will be accepted is if they follow the rules. They will get the point really fast.
I just looked at one of the latest High Value Books $$$ created and almost every stamp is damaged. The rule clearly states:
Not contain damaged, altered, fake, counterfeit, etc. items.

...... this makes me angry that a few sellers figure they can do whatever they want and suffer no consequences"

.

rrr...

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APS #213005

29 May 2022
06:24:47pm
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Apparently. this discussion thread is the place for those who want to moan, groan and complain that things aren't to their own personal liking -

so be it.

Just make sure you KEEP it here so the rest of us can ignore it.



Now -

3 of us (all approval book moderators - NONE of which is Ralph) are working out some NEW & IMPROVED sellers' rules for the Approvals platform. THIS is what we have been busy with.

Some time this coming week we should have it all in place.


In the meantime, please feel free to continue your idle ranting.

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Gudgie

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29 May 2022
08:34:14pm
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

I’ve read this forum since it began 3 months ago. I’ve not posted or conversed with anyone who contributed to it. I thought the opening contribution by rraphy sailed a little close to the wind in what he said, and I did not recognise many of the problems he complained about. I felt he was getting worked up about a small issue, but many members on here continually complain about very minor issues.

I said “I did not recognise many of the problems”. I did not say all of what he said in his contribution. I recognised complaints to moderators, or board members go unanswered. I’ve complained to moderators, and correspondence goes unacknowledged and unanswered.

I buy lots of stamps but never look at World Wide so this thread wasn’t of great interest to me. I’ve seen some awful books, and I stay clear of those sellers. If an image shows a stamp with all 4 perfs., and the price is right, I’m happy to run with it. To be honest, I’ve rarely been disappointed in anything I’ve bought on SoR.

I get more annoyed by professional stamp vendors who ignore rules continually. There is a place for covers, for cinderellas, and for most countries, but the same sellers continually waste my time scrolling through hundreds of these items before I find a stamp. No action is taken against them. I’ve complained privately and not received the courtesy of a response.

Rrraphy saw a rule being broken, and the people who broke the rule were not sanctioned. He complained privately but received no response from moderators. What should he then do?

It would have been simple to advise members that 3 Approval Book moderators have worked to address issues raised in this discussion, and they hoped to present a solution in the next week. Instead musicman waded in with all guns blazing. Musicman’s diatribe reminds me of an online stamp “Club” based in Australia where no criticism of any aspect of the “Club” is tolerated by the owner, and which all self respecting collectors stay miles away from.

It’s tough being an unpaid volunteer. You do all the work and take all the flak. I appreciate musicman does help out, working as a moderator, and he is trying to address points which rrraphy raised. The details he gave, lost in his diatribe, in my opinion are 3 months too late.

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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

29 May 2022
09:37:36pm
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

John

thanks for your comments.

I don't think you've written me privately; if you have, I don't recall.

Ralph and I have spoken several times privately; both of us have initiated those conversations. Ralph also compalins often and loudly in public fora; I tend not to reply to those, mostly because we've covered those complaints before, many, many, many times.

I've suggested to Ralph, both privately and publicly, that any time he wants to send me an offending page, I'll take a look. Ralph does not want to do that; he far prefers others do that work.

We had a new volunteer helping out for a while, but his personal life required he step away.

We also have a number of members whose age contributes to difficulties. Those whose hands shake and whose sight is diminished have a tough time.

One of our moderators took a vacation; another is working on a project. I've done some moderating, but not a whole lot, and the few approvals I've viewed mostly met the rules (imperfectly, but since we're the ones enforcing the rules, we determine how stringent to be). But, Right now, the three auctioneers have been trying to deal with the approval issue.

There are many who would agree with your appraisal:

"I thought the opening contribution by rraphy sailed a little close to the wind in what he said, and I did not recognise many of the problems he complained about. I felt he was getting worked up about a small issue"

I do.

David








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rrraphy
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Retired Consultant APS#186030

29 May 2022
09:51:54pm
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

The problem Musicman is that while members can ignore my "ranting" I think Management should take action when informed about problems or when they work at moderating themselves instead of just wearing a name tag.
I was under the impression we had a new moderator, and when I contacted him again, as I had in the past, to report some new rule violations, I was notified privately that he no longer was the moderator. For a while, things had improved dramatically, showing a moderator working at the job can acheive significant improvements. And then, things went sour again, which is why I attempted to report to him again,
Management, you included, could have bothered to inform the rest of us, instead of advising us to disregard my complaints. It would not be necessary to post again with information about why things had degraded, and I don't enjoy having to do it, in spite of what you may think.

Note that I was only responding to several other members' posts!

And attacking the messenger instead of solving the problem is a defensive move that fools no one.

rrr...

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Retired Consultant APS#186030

29 May 2022
10:03:56pm
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

David: re

" I've suggested to Ralph, both privately and publicly, that any time he wants to send me an offending page, I'll take a look. Ralph does not want to do that; he far prefers others do that work."



It is true, because I find I just cannot work with you. It was pointless.
I worked quite well with others, who can testify to it here, if they want.
rrr...

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Brechinite

30 May 2022
05:05:29am

Auctions - Approvals
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

It was interesting to read that there may be upcoming changes to the Rules governing the Approvals to be announced this week.

We already have "Rules". They are good or bad depending on the individuals own perception.

Rules, like most things, only work if they are enforced.

May I suggest a couple of things.

a) Remove the Worldwide Category as it appears to be the more contentious category.

b) Put in a minimum price of say 10 cents per stamp.

c) Put in a minimum Book Value of say $15.00. (Many Clubs have a minimum Book Value placed on their Club Books)

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30 May 2022
08:15:31am

Auctions - Approvals
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Interesting ideas Ian, but they present some problems as far as I can see with my own sales. A minimum price of 10 cents per stamp, is there a way to determine what percentage of stamps here sell for less than 10 cents? I suspect at least half. Of late I could not even sell stamps for a penny at auction - so I discontinued penny auctions. All auctions may be discontinued by the end of June as the auction market at least for me, is almost non existent.

I don't bother making up worldwide books due to the fallout that they seem to get. People who do have them seem to do well with them if the stamps are cheap enough. While people complain about them, how many people who currently buy from them would buy from other books if the w/w were not available? Part of the problem with books is the requirements for a book in the first place. If for argument sake I was looking for stamps from a country where it is just about impossible to have 100 stamps from that country, where might I look if there was no worldwide category? Worldwide SHOULD exist but should have geographic specifics attached to it, AND stamps should be in country order within the area. I don't see where that is a difficult thing to do.

It will be interesting to see what "new rules" are set out for the sellers here. Personally, I feel all books should be indexed, and if Scott catalogs are the problem (cost prohibitive), I get that, except how are sellers assigning a value to a stamp in a book if they are not looking them all up to begin with. Is it random? Could a person find a $10 stamp in a book priced at a dime with no catalog number? I seriously doubt that. I would be willing to bet that almost everyone who has books in anything except world wide 5 cent mish mash books has access to a set of Scotts. If I was a buyer for my own collection, and was looking for a specific stamp, there is no way I would spend the time going through a book that did not have catalog numbers. Perhaps people don't collect as I did anymore.

Greg

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Flemming

30 May 2022
09:22:09am
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

I'm just a collector but one day I may be a seller to clean out my duplicates, and worldwide would definetly be one of the categories I would need as I wouldn't have enough stamps worth posting to complete a book for a single country. I also expect a lot of the stamps would be in the 5 cent price range.

When I look to buy from a book I rely on the catalog number. My want lists are by catalog number and if a book doesn't have catalog numbers I skip it. For some of the countries I collect, water marks are critical, and without a catalog reference you don't know what you're getting. I have taken chances and hence the duplicates Smug The catalog number also provides a quick reference if I think a stamp is overpriced. I have seen examples where stamps are listed on the auction at 150-200% catalog value.

So based on my criteria -- no catalgo number, no lookie -- I don't see the worldwide books that people are complaining about, and quite frankly I don't care. I respect rules and I think people should follow them when assembling their books to maintain a level of quality in SR, but if they sell their stamps all mixed up with questionable quality, then who's to argue.

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30 May 2022
12:27:02pm
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Greg:

"If for argument sake I was looking for stamps from a country where it is just about impossible to have 100 stamps from that country, where might I look if there was no worldwide category? Worldwide SHOULD exist but should have geographic specifics attached to it, AND stamps should be in country order within the area. I don't see where that is a difficult thing to do.
"



Countries where it is hard to assemble 100 stamps were always exempted. The seller just had to get the ok of the administrator. I issued books of say 80 stamps for Cilicia, or Saar for example, where reaching 100 would be a tough task. It was always allowed to group countries within defined regions.
So to return to my example, one could issue a book called French/Middle East, and group Cilicia with Alouites, Alexandretta etc...and list them in the title. Note that we also went from 200 to 100 to make it easier.
And within our category system, having Approvals with more than one country as always allowed, and always have been, as long as the countries are defined in the title, and grouped by region. So Belgium, Italy, Luxembourg could all be grouped under "Other Europe".
So the argument for the 100 stamps is just an excuse. Really, if you cannot put a book of related material of 100 items (including duplicates) within a norrower context, should you even try to sell in an Approval?
By the way Worldwide is only a problem because it encourages folks to produce books with their floor droppings. This has been proven, again and again.

Greg, in a book with a combined set of related countries, it was also required to group the stamps, within price brackets. So that books would have some level of organization to them. Grouping by country, and grouping of the duplicates.
More specific titles, were always intended to guide the buyer, withiout having to search forever in random books.
By the way, it was always felt that one should NOT regulate pricing.

rrr...

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Retired Consultant APS#186030

30 May 2022
01:13:18pm
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Since the rules are being looked at, as per Musicman, here is the original set of rules written by Bobby Barhhart at the start of Approvals in 2016, and then modified after some experience was accumulated by the development team. There were further modification on a number of issues, such as retiring books etc, but the essence of the rules is here, and simple to understand. All this is preserved in documentation under "Approval Project/Original". I suggest you take a look at history instead of reinventing the wheel.

"#1 All items (stamps, sets, S/S, FDC, etc...) are clearly visible as scanned and numbered from 1 to n on each page?
NOTE: Please make sure that you indicate clearly any known defects. Please scan at a high enough resolution to clearly show the listed material.

Yes No

#2 Each item (stamps, sets, S/S, FDC, etc...) has its own individual number, clearly associated with it?
NOTE: No numbering by rows; no hidden numbers. Please make an effort to structure your books in an organized fashion.

Yes No


#3 The book offers a SUBSTANTIAL selection with a MINIMUM of 100 items (mix of stamps, sets, S/S, FDC, etc.) in the chosen collectible area and no more than 3 copies of any individual item?
NOTE: The Moderator may grant an exception for some books (offering a combination of stamps, sets, S/S, covers, etc.), and for countries or topics where a limited stamp selection may make the minimum item requirement difficult to achieve. Exceptions to the "3 Copies Rule" can also be claimed for cancellation varieties, if notated. To get an exception for your book, you must contact the Moderator to obtain a waiver before you publish your book. Books consisting exclusively of covers, sheets, S/S, complete sets, etc., must meet a minimum of 24 items, and are subject to Moderator review.

Yes No
#4 The book offers stamps in WELL DEFINED, collectible topics that are clearly described in its TITLE and listed in the corresponding Approval Books Category?
NOTE: Please do NOT compile books with unrelated material, "floor sweepings", and do NOT combine unrelated countries or topics, etc.. Your book must fit one of our categories. Make sure the title contains enough information, such as year range, catalog number range, condition, topical subject, etc. to define precisely its content.

Yes No
If your answer to all these questions is YES, then you may publish your book.

If you are unsure of an answer, you may message the Approval Books Moderator for an opinion.

If the Moderator determines that your published book is not in compliance with these simple rules, your book may be deactivated until it is edited appropriately, or you submit a request for a waiver from one of more of the rules.

WARNING: Do not relist old material as new after short periods of time. This defies the purpose of the New Books list and is unfriendly towards other member-sellers and buyers alike. Approval Books must remain active for a reasonable duration, not just a short time. Approval books are not to be used as quick auction substitutes, nor as "stores".

Sellers must monitor their book sales. Approval Books must be deactivated when depleted (> 90% sold), when no sales have occurred for several months, or after ONE year from the date the book was published.

Stamporama reserves the right to revoke selling privileges of members who violate the Approval Book Rules."
"




rrr....
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Brechinite

30 May 2022
02:12:24pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

" All auctions may be discontinued by the end of June as the auction market at least for me, is almost non existent."



Greg

I am saddened to read the above.

I have gleaned some info on the auctions from the reports available.

March and April Sales were quite similar with a slight improvement in price per item realised in April.

However delving deeper into the information available for Auctions it would appear that 5 Sellers account for over 50% of items listed.

With a daily average of Items available ie 7100 that 3550 are listed by 5 Sellers and 3550 listed by 24 Sellers. If you are one of the 24 then the suggestion is that your items are not being noticed as they are "swamped" by the 5.

The whole issue of Sales on this site whether it be Auctions or Approvals is down to one single issue. Whatever one "moans or groans" about what is wrong with the system fades into insignificance of the underlying cause.

Lack of Members.


Edit.

At the moment of typing 70 visitors are listed but only 10 logged in,

In the past few weeks I never ever seen 20 or more members logged in at the same time.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!

30 May 2022
02:51:46pm
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

"In the past few weeks I never ever seen 20 or more members logged in at the same time."



There are probably less than you think! I, for one, quite often don't log out and I bet I'm not the only one! Sorry about that!!

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Brechinite

30 May 2022
04:02:12pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Harvey

One day last week when I checked in I was the only one logged on!!

When you consider that there are 499 members mentioned on the Home Page. Where are they all??????

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Brechinite

30 May 2022
06:48:29pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

In a previous post I stated

"With a daily average of Items available ie 7100 that 3550 are listed by 5 Sellers and 3550 listed by 24 Sellers. If you are one of the 24 then the suggestion is that your items are not being noticed as they are "swamped" by the 5."



I must amend that statement to read ie 7100 that 3700 are listed by 3 sellers and 3400 listed by 26 Sellers.


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30 May 2022
09:24:52pm

Auctions
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Ian i often wonder about the 500 members...they pay their dues..yet the vast majority do not seem to bid or post in the discussions.. seems weird if you belong to something... oh well.

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Al
Collector, Moderator

31 May 2022
06:17:24am
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

This thread is starting to take a longer time to load.

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31 May 2022
06:56:26am

Auctions - Approvals
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Ian, swamped is a good word. I also believe you can talk about filters till you are blue in the face so to speak, and no one is going to use them, or probably better put, many people will not use them. I noticed a drop off right away when the run forever option was put out there. The spread sheet really is easy. I had been using it for years. More than the swamping though, I am thinking the economy is paying a critical part in the drop off. Auctions at every venue I list at have been almost nil over the past couple of months. My other things, that are not stamps have remained steady. I also think that a collector will always collect, but what they collect will change. The person who would spend $10 a week so to speak and get say, 25 stamps for their collection, will now still get 25 stamps, but they only have $5 to spend. That being said, those 3-5 cent mish mash books become appealing especially if the collector decides to take up a topical, and does not mind CTO stamps in their collection. They also will not care about condition. I am sure you have seen old time albums with stamps from back in the early 1900s. The condition of what was saved is beyond belief. Yet it filled a space in their album. I don't think the average collector is collecting thinking they are creating a nest egg for the future. I hope not anyway unless they are really collecting very high end stamps. They are collecting for the fun of it, which is why I never understood the anger over a stamp in a book that was failed to have "short perf" or some other crazy thing mentioned as part of the condition, especially when we are talking about stamps that catalog for under a dollar. I guess thats just me, as this topic constantly comes up in discussion. If I was to get back into collecting, I probably lean toward US Match & Medicine and Non Scott US REvenues. If you are familiar with M&M, to find them completely undamaged is VERY difficult and quite possibly would cost at least 100% Scott. Collectors will purchase repaired or damaged stamps in this area. I certainly would if the price was right. Same with the dated Red & Green US revenues. Try finding the highest denominations that have not been perfin cancelled. To some that sort of cancel is an eyesore on a stamp. For those looking to complete their reds and greens, they would take them in that condition knowing there are no others available. I won't make a book of them. I only know one collector who would be interested....

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02 Jun 2022
11:10:27am

Approvals
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

I have been following this thread and have refrained from saying anything new. I have noticed since last year when the membership rules started that I had been putting up new approval books for a small group of my regular buyers. I rarely see a new buyer for any of my books. That worked OK for the year but as time has gone on and I create new books - there is only so much brand new items that have not been seen before - so with the same group of buyers - the sales have gone down for me. The regulars I have pick out the "new" items but the rest just sit there. The last few months have been the worse since the second year of membership started - did we have a drop in the number of members ?

As others have said the first few days of a new book see 90% of the sales. I started taking down books before they reach the threshold of closing soon. I either move some of the stamps to my other selling site, keep the leftovers and merge with other stamps to create a future new book or just donate the stamps that are just no longer worth the effort to keep and try to sell again. Lately no matter what book I put up the sales have been much lower than they used to be. I feel like I am waisting my time putting them together. Add the fact that now with the new reporting of sales over $600 for the year will be rpeorted on a 1099 - I am starting to think that maybe I will have to scale down in the future.

Steve

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02 Jun 2022
07:25:42pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Steve I'm still thinking its the economy or more directly inflation. Unless you have a reasonably good income 20-30% increase in things over last year hurts. Something has to be cut out of the budget. I see it on eBay and hip as well for stamps. The other things I sell have not seen a drop off. Keep in mind too all those covid checks that were handed out like play money to people who didn't need them. What that provided was a boost to retail which is what we are a part of. Without those checks sales come back to earth.

I have scaled back and will do so until things change, but honestly I do not see that happening any time soon. I will just keep my feet wet in the water here. Because I make up small books a collection might give me 3-4 books. Smaller books are also easier to break down and redo so to speak if necessary. Giving uncle upwards of 12% does not help either as it amounts to a decrease in already reduced revenues. My wife likes the fact that i have cut out about 10 hours of work a week Personally I think next year you will see more international sellers than domestic ones. It remains to be seen what happens to the collectibles market across all things. I am certainly winning auction lots for resale in postcards at prices that are 1/3 of what I would have spent a year ago. I stopped bidding on stamp lots as I have a lot that needs to be gone through.

Greg

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cougar
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03 Jun 2022
12:56:09am
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

"Unless you have a reasonably good income 20-30% increase in things over last year hurts. Something has to be cut out of the budget."



Greg, you are hitting it right on the head. In my neck of the woods, as probably everywhere else in Canada and the US, food went up by 20-30%. A box of juice I could find at $2.50/piece with some luck - now I need the same luck to buy it at $3.50, because the regular price would be $3.99-$4.99. And this goes across everything - fruits, vegetables, food for my dog. Gas that we could get at $1.20/liter or less is now $2.09 / liter.

So when we have hundreds of transactions a month and they are all inflated in this way, the final card balance is surprising to say the least. If wages don't follow suit, people feel unsafe and cut off all unnecessary purchases. We just don't know where all this is going to take us. The prediction here is that by the end of summer gas will hit $3/ liter and above - again affecting all other prices along the chain. All goods are transported from somewhere and mostly or exclusively with fossil fuels.
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03 Jun 2022
03:09:20am

Auctions - Approvals
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Jules, yes, food prices have soared here. When the price is the same, the package weight is less. For some things, there has been minimum increases due to the fact that we live in farm country, so produce, eggs and milk have not seen much in the way of an increase. We have a huge freezer in the garage so we buy the sales. But gas prices do affect everything, and I too have read of the expected $10 a gallon gas in California this summer. I've lived through the inflation 70's so I have seen this before. The real issue is, how do you end it.

I've mentioned before that an old dealer that got me into the game back in 1980 once told me - you can't eat stamps. You are selling something that no one really needs, just wants. And when it comes down to putting food on the table or a stamp into an album, you can't eat stamps. My weekly sales here, and I know I have cut back which is part of it, is about 25% of what it was a year ago. No complaints, I expected it. But to beat your head against the wall and just put more stamps up for sale expecting a huge increase in sales, to me anyway, is non productive. Simply take a break, and wait for things to get better. This is the beauty of the "auction store". Once you understand the spreadsheet, and the fact that you must be careful not to relist a sold item, the amount of work is minimal on a weekly basis. Before long I think most sellers will figure that out. You then look at it with thought of "if it sells, it sells. If not there is always the potential of next week"

Greg




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03 Jun 2022
10:43:09am

Approvals
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Greg,
You are probably right - it all ls boiling down to Inflation. I have been selling on and off online (started with EBAY then BIDSTART) for about 14 years. This is the first time in all of these years where there has been inflation like we have now. I think now that I am well over the new threshold of $600 for a 1099 - I will go slower the rest of the year with adding new books here and putting up new material in Hip as well. Steve

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HolocaustStamps

04 Jun 2022
08:12:46am
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Reading these comments, I'm absolutely gob-smacked that governments chase after folks who have revenues of $600 of stamps sold (ignoring the acquisition and distribution costs). Many of whom may use the money to buy stamps from other folks (so ultimately a trade/exchange mechanism).

Meanwhile, they let their cronies invest millions/billions in off-shore tax havens to evade taxes, and use Super-PACs to pay for haircuts and spray tans; or let cults call themselves religions to get tax-exempt status and become real estate empires.

It just seems wrong, wrong, wrong.

Moderators: If this is deemed too political feel free to remove it. But I'm disgusted that these recent policies have many well-intentioned "small-fry" folks in a group like this rethinking their service to others while the 1% become the 0.5%...I just have to say it. No apologies.

Dave.

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04 Jun 2022
11:43:34am
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Dave, I think you may have a misunderstanding of the implications of the $600 revenue reporting requirement. This only requires you to file a Schedule C (profit or loss from a business). You will be able to deduct your acquisition and distribution costs. It is quite likely that your net income from this "business" will be near zero. The IRS does not have the resources to question the expense deductions of small volume retail sales operations.

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Tom in Exton, PA

04 Jun 2022
11:43:54am
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

"Reading these comments, I'm absolutely gob-smacked that governments chase after folks who have revenues of $600 of stamps sold (ignoring the acquisition and distribution costs). Many of whom may use the money to buy stamps from other folks (so ultimately a trade/exchange mechanism)."



The law was always there, just not enforced, nearly voluntary. And pretty much so because it was a cash business that was hard to track. Enter in easy to track cashless transactions like Paypal, eBay etc. Now it's documented and enforceable.

I'm doing a fair number a month on eBay. Note that I won't be taxed for this entire amount. I will have to file a schedule C for my 1099 income (which I do anyway for my consulting), and I will have to document my expenses. That's why I spend very little cash, I might have $10 in my wallet in case I want a soda or something, and I use my debit card for everything. Aside from that, I have a folder that sits on my desk for receipts.

End of year, everything from eBay fees to postage, printer cartridges, internet bill, my laptop and cell phone (apportioned) are all legitimate expenses. Replenishment of inventory, some of which lands in my collection, too. Hopefully I can explain away any taxability on this income.
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APS #213005

04 Jun 2022
12:52:46pm
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Is it possible we could close this thread and continue it in a new thread?
It's gotten REALLLLLY long!

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HolocaustStamps

04 Jun 2022
01:08:47pm
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

I'm with you Randy! Here's my last kick at the can, then I'm shutting up...

And to Harry's point...I understand that if it is business income the expenses can be also reported. My point (perhaps understated rather than misunderstood) is that the government is requiring reporting/paperwork for such a small amount, regardless of whether it is from an actual "business" or just some person selling off personal stuff no longer needed/wanted.

I still assert governments could use their energies more productively (regardless if it is a new or resurrected policy, to Tom's point).

Dave.

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05 Jun 2022
01:41:14am
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

"I still assert governments could use their energies more productively"



I totally agree, Dave, but they don't. The big fish are too strong for them, so they go after the fry.

What bothers me is, they ask you to do things that require a lot of time and some bookkeeping knowledge, they ask you to complete forms, mail things, respond to their questions and on and on while NOBODY IS PAYING YOU FOR THE TIME WASTED. They however are paid for every minute spent on our files, and from our money too.
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Al
Collector, Moderator

05 Jun 2022
05:52:26am
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

I assume the companies that pay taxes want others in the less regulated economy to do so as well especially the small and medium business without the money to dodge taxes. Let's take every brick and mortar stamp store. They usually have a local business license and pay local, state, and federal taxes and compete with online sellers but that is not the only reason they are disappearing. In some stamp shows, local tax authorities have forced dealers to pay local sales taxes

If every online seller contacted a CPA many will find they are operating as a business and should pay taxes. Do you think many would? All these new rules are an attempt to collect taxes on a not well documented transactions but with mega sites like ebay they have a method to see commercial transactions that could be taxed. I would not be surprised if they require a tax identification number for all sellers.

Even SOR has to pay taxes so part of the operating expense.

It would be less paperwork if they made it a simple value added sales tax where the tax is paid at time of transaction and not paid later as part of some income tax filing that allows deductions or graduated tax rates.

My state requires payment of sales tax for out of state purchases.

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michael78651

05 Jun 2022
11:13:55am
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

"In some stamp shows, local tax authorities have forced dealers to pay local sales taxes"



That's not accurate. Businesses collect sales taxes from the buyers, and submit the collected taxes to the proper entity/entities depending on each state's requirements. For some states it is a bookkeeping nightmare. Businesses do not pay sales taxes on their sales. Sales are income, and subject to business income taxes. They do pay sales taxes on items that they purchase that are not bought for resale. If the sales tax is not paid to the seller, then the business has to declare purchases not intended for resale on their sales tax submittal, and pay the appropriate sales tax at that time.

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hfbaker
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05 Jun 2022
04:30:21pm
re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

" would not be surprised if they require a tax identification number for all sellers."



They do.

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rrraphy

Retired Consultant APS#186030
28 Feb 2022
02:15:00am

Moving on from the Fog...

This has been a hot button of mine, for some time. World-wide Books are often very well put together, but some are also a complete disorganized mess.
World-wide was initially banned as a category. Now, they are popular with sellers and can be an excuse for a Book of random floor droppings stuck to pages.

World-wide DOES NOT mean anything goes. The rule governing World-wide is very SPECIFIC:

"C19. All items in any approval book must be directly related to philately and [b]be in the chosen approval book category[/b]. World-wide and other non-listed categories must be posted in the "World Wide" category, [b]and must be neatly arranged by country and/or topic.[/b] "



Worldwide, AND neatly arranged by country or topic.

-----------

While I am at it, here is something that would also help, with very little effort on the part of the sellers: It is an old rule that was removed, I am not sure why.

It said (I am paraphrasing as I don't have a copy of the old rules): The title of the Approval Book must clearly describe the content of the book. It also said that the title should be specific, and bracket the content so as to direct the buyers, without forcing them to look at each page.
This was meant to discourage titles such as "Europe" or even "Russia" (which has 8000+ stamps listed), or "Nicaragua" (5000+ stamps) and encourage putting a better description of content, such as content, year-ranges, condition (m, or used) etc...(eg: Russia 1940-1950, used). I would really like to see this rule about the Book TITLE description re-instated and enforced. The description is for the Buyer!

The Stamporama experience should be a positive one for Buyers, as well as Sellers. It can be, with very little extra effort. I have heard too many time the excuse that you don't have to look at... if you voice an objection. How about fixing what is broken, as well as enforcing what is being ignored.

rrr....

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BrightonPete

Praying for Ukraine
28 Feb 2022
07:25:51am

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

The other thing I notice is the description of the book. One word doesn't say a thing to me!

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
28 Feb 2022
07:47:15am

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

any chance you could include the object of your annoyance in your message, or are you trying to recreate the experience of having to look hard in the stock card yard? Save us some time and effort, which I thought was your goal.

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Brechinite

28 Feb 2022
08:33:02am

Auctions - Approvals

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

As a point of interest.

The amount of space in the Book Title space is too short.

I tried a more descriptive title but could only get "Switzerland Sets, Used, 2002 to 1990, Pro Juventute Sets Used, 1995 to". I was unable to put in 1978.

Yet my title only took up half the space of the bar visible.

Therefore some better descriptions may be limited by the system.

OK you can get it all into the book description but that doesn't help the buyer when searching for books in the New books section.



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BrightonPete

Praying for Ukraine
28 Feb 2022
09:11:43am

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Au contraire, mon ami, Ian! I look for countries of interest to me then look in the book description to see what is included. "Mix" doesn't tell me anything, but "Switzerland Sets, Used, 2002 to 1990, Pro Juventute Sets Used, 1995 to 1978" would tell me a lot!

Are other members that rushed to look at what's inside that they miss the description?

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BrightonPete

Praying for Ukraine
28 Feb 2022
09:15:14am

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Why isn't the title JUST the country name or topic?

The description line is for just that - the description of what is included in the book!

That's how I have always viewed it.

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rrraphy

Retired Consultant APS#186030
28 Feb 2022
03:09:54pm

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Dave, having already felt the wrath of objections to my being specific in my criticism, I will not do so (except in private).

1. As far as disorganized World-wide books, just search on keyword worldwide and look at the chaos. How difficult is it to take a handful of 100 stamps, sort them by topic or country before sticking them on a page. This will also avoid the scattered multiple copies issue. But I bet you, no one is doing so to annoy me, just they are not aware of the rule, and this was feared which is why we banned worldwide. Policing worldwide is a LOT of extra work for the moderator. Note that "rule bending" is being done due to lack of knowledge. I had never experienced anything but cooperation when I explained the rules to sellers listing Approval Books. Sellers were all cooperative, (even the few who were technologically challenged). Unfortunately, bad example breeds more bad books, so you need to work with the few problem listers, from the very beginning.

2. As far as my suggestion for the title guideline, SOR discarded the old rule guidelines for Title Description, so I cannot blame anyone listing today for being creative, or self serving, or mysterious. First I suggest we re-institute a guideline and a rule for the title. That was my suggestion. Most books titles are fine, but some....At Wits End

Ian is correct that the title length is truncated. This was done for a reason. In the early days, we saw titles that were "~10" lines long, with life stories and superlative adjectives (a no no) in the title! Title was becoming an advertising promotion. Length also made the listing very unruly, and tacky. So a limit was instituted, and a specific un-doctored description was required. You can use abbreviations to describe the content clearly and precisely.
Alternatively, Tim could increase the length allowed for the title, I have no objection, except more work for Tim, but I am in favor of having it capped, and still on the short side. It is a title, not a life story.
I think you can work around the limitation we currently have, but I do admit Ian that it is restrictive.

Once we have a clear Title rule or guideline in place, then Dave, I will gladly and privately point to books that would benefit from the title "police". Right now to re-iterate, we no longer have a rule or even a guideline for the title description.



rrr...

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StampCollector

28 Feb 2022
04:37:41pm

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Somehow I get the feeling that members think that since they pay a fee they should be allow to use the site as they please.
Give them a warning and if that fails, delete the unruly book.

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michael78651

01 Mar 2022
12:16:26am

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

"I tried a more descriptive title but could only get "Switzerland Sets, Used, 2002 to 1990, Pro Juventute Sets Used, 1995 to". I was unable to put in 1978."



Using abbreviations, removing unneeded punctuation marks and using symbols instead of words helps cut down on the wordage, for example:

Swiss Sets Used, 2002-1990, Pro Juventute Sets Used, 1995-1978"
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Brechinite

01 Mar 2022
04:25:22am

Auctions - Approvals

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Aye Micheal, yes it could be done as you suggested but I was trying to make the point that the Book Title space is restrictive.
The more information that is put in the title the better it is for Buyers. Especially as there appears to me more space available for the title in the New Books section with the new layout.
I am not suggesting that it should be increased by lines and lines of extra text but an extra 10 characters would not go amiss.

I know that the book description can accomodate numerous characters but this is only seen when one clicks onto the book.

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Jansimon

collector, seller, MT member
01 Mar 2022
08:30:51am

Approvals

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Wer Großes will, muß sich zusammenraffen:
In der Beschränkung zeigt sich erst der Meister,
Und das Gesetz nur kann uns Freiheit geben.


(He who’d do great things must display restraint;
The master shows himself first in confinement,
And law alone can grant us liberation.)

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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michael78651

01 Mar 2022
12:13:23pm

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Ian, my example saved 13 characters/spaces.

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ConnieB

01 Mar 2022
02:40:49pm

Approvals

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Sorry. I'm guilty of not reading the WW rule recently or closely when I created my recent WW approval book. I will correct my errors.

With so many areas causing worry and aggravation in our lives these days, this situation does not need to add more chaos and irritation. I'm sorry to have offended anyone. Peace, generosity, kindness, honesty, integrity, and enjoyment of good stamps are the characteristics that I hope people will notice in me and in the work I do.

In the interests of peace, please don't quickly jump to publicly using labels that malign others and their intentions.

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rrraphy

Retired Consultant APS#186030
01 Mar 2022
03:04:19pm

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Ian: re

"I was trying to make the point that the Book Title space is restrictive.
The more information that is put in the title the better it is for Buyers. Especially as there appears to me more space available for the title in the New Books section with the new layout.
"


It is restrictive, by design Ian. Yes we could ask to add 10 or 20 spaces, but it is more work for Tim. I don't think it warrants a high priority number!

I think you can easily work around the limitation we currently have even if it is a tad bit restrictive.

rrr...

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Brechinite

01 Mar 2022
07:02:10pm

Auctions - Approvals

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

rrraphy:- No worries as our Australian cousins say.

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Soundcrest

02 Mar 2022
09:33:04am

Auctions - Approvals

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

I suppose its just me but I really don't see much of a difference between a mish mash book in no order with a title of Worldwide and a mish mash book in no order in a book called German Commeratives for example. I will be the first to say I do not know how people collect and mount their stamps. When I actively collected Germany, I used Scotts Germany albums and had home made pages for the Germany Michel listed stamps. I had a couple of German revenue albums as well. If I were to go back into Germany it would be for Michel listed stamps and Norton revenues (just one of the revenue catalogs ). Assuming there were such stamps in any of the German books out there (5 of 6 people that have books have no catalog numbers) I would miss them. This is due to what I see on page one. If there are no numbers, I'm done. This is because my home made pages have no pictures on them so I would have to dig out my reference books to see if what the person had in their book was a Michel S282 (my catalogs are all marked up as to what I have). Do I know what a Michel S282 looks like? No. Put the number S282 on your listing and I would double check to see if it was actually that stamps based on the description and you then have a sale if it matches. Yes there are dozens of catalogs and no size fits all. If there was a move to go to a universal catalog (Stampworld) on this site I would not be adverse to it. Its free to everyone and I use it quite often as well as Colnect because I cannot afford all the catalogs from every publisher. (I'd love to be able to afford a Higgins & Gage and a complete Barefoot catalog but its not going to happen.) Yet, if I put a Stampworld catalog number into a listing, It does not even get a view for the most part.

People are fairly successful in selling out of worldwide books vs books that have a more descriptive title and as long as that is the case, I do not think anyone will change their practices, unless the w/w books are dropped if they have more than a couple of countries in them. The books are helpful for the times that you have any kind of colony issues, be it French or British. Likewise the missing catalog number. If people are successful sellers without them, they will not use them, though it boggles my mind that people can look up a stamp to see what it is worth, but not use the number on the line in the book. I tried the worldwide books a few times to see if people would purchase from them that normally do not buy my auctions. Like most of my tests of late, this one failed as well. No new buyers. So, for me anyway, worldwide books, even with every single stamp/set identified is not worth the effort. I also tried British in alphabetical order with all stamps for 10 cents each. Nope. Yes about 40% but that's not much better a result than a regular book that I do put catalog numbers in. So, I'll stick to the way I do approval books - and just hope I picked countries that there is an interest in. I will now go back to work for the day......

Greg

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cardstamp

02 Mar 2022
10:45:16am

Approvals

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Just two observations after reading thru all of this:

In all of the years creatingg and selling with approval books here - I NEVER USED THE WORLDWIDE category. I can not even think of a case where I would even want to use it.

I always try to use a meaningful book description by at least putting in a date range of what is included in the title. If the country is limited in nature (such a Mozambique Company) there would be nothing else to add to the title.

Steve

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rrraphy

Retired Consultant APS#186030
25 Apr 2022
12:21:43am

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

As of now, of the newly listed Approval books 42 are Worldwide, out of 87. Some do state WW and some state nothing of value to the buyer, such as Number 5 or just a date, but they are WW as well.
None of the WW sellers (except a handful) has organized the material except in a totally random fashion.

To say that I am disappointed with the direction Approval has continued to evolve, under this lack of management would be understating my feelings. Seems like I am one of the few who still seem to care.

Soon I will shut up but it is just a shame to see this once unique product encouraged to spiral into mediocrity.

rrr...

This is our Rule governing WW:

"C19. All items in any approval book must be directly related to philately and be in the chosen approval book category. World-wide and other non-listed categories must be posted in the "World Wide" category, and must be neatly arranged by country and/or topic.
"



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Brechinite

25 Apr 2022
05:39:26am

Auctions - Approvals

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

35 of these worldwide books that rrraphy is highlighting is from one seller.

I have always said that as long as 10% or less of the Approval Books listed are in the Worldwide category then we should be able to cope and allow Worldwide Books.

Last week Worldwide Books were 12.5% of the total and today it is 15.6%

The figure is now above 10% then maybe we should re-think this category.

As a first step may I suggest that the Management Team spend a little time enforcing Rule C19.

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
25 Apr 2022
09:21:45am

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

on your last posting, I privately wrote you and invited you to send me the URLs for those things that offended your sensibilities. CRICKETS!!!!

Instead of spending your time ranting, why not help those who are willing to work with you.

if your intent is to protect the sanctity of the approvals, then facilitate that. If it's just to get out your annoyance for the world to see, carry on.

David

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Brechinite

25 Apr 2022
09:43:42am

Auctions - Approvals

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

amsd:- are you berating me or rrraphy or both?

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rrraphy

Retired Consultant APS#186030
25 Apr 2022
12:25:47pm

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

amsd: How hard is it to look at the first page of every WW or undefined titled Approval Books? For heaven sake, it takes less time than my copying just one or a few of the 42 URL.
Stop passing the buck. When I report, I get shut off. When I complain, I get admonished. It takes less time to look at a few first pages of Approvals than writing me private messages. But it does not solve the issue which is inherent to having a catch all category. My complaint is about the policy that allows it, not the sellers, who may not know better.

Want to simplify the task of the moderator, who currently is doing nothing, just eliminate WW as was initially set up, for a reason, and enforce a requirement that books should have titles describing accurately the content and be organized. Books should follow our categories, which include some grouped categories, such as Other Europe, Middle east etc...and not be poetic title puzzles.

Ian: 10% ww is your number, but if there were a way to easily verify that they are organized as per rule C19, I could live with it, or even a higher number as long as the content is described on page 1 and organized. But that is NOT going to work. Not without a lot of work by inexistant moderators.

The problem is that WW, as we have now (for reasons that escape me, it was conceptually not allowed for cause), needs inspection of every page for rule C19 to work.
And clearly we don't have moderators with this kind of time on their hands, or motivation, and moderated for a long while, I know it is too much to ask. So I say it is time to go back to basics and require books to fit our categories system and not bridge across groups, while WW or non specific books are not allowed. And the title should describe the content specifically. Voila...moderators can go back to sleep, or do other tasks of higher priority, after a simple rule change, and a brief enforcement phase.

Incidentally WW books with 24 pages and with 24 S/S are less offensive than books with 10 pages of randomly thrown stamps on the pages, bottom of the shoe box and floor droppings could, for some, be a good description. But even 24 pages of S/S of FDC or whatever "large items" should be grouped in some form of order and fit into a limited number of categories. Duplicates should not be scattered etc,,etc... still a moderator nightmare. As a volunteer organization with few moderators, let us make their life easier!

Let's go back to our earlier rule.

rrr...

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d1stamper

25 Apr 2022
12:44:57pm

Approvals

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Do the auctioneers look after the Approval books or just the Auctions.


The page listing of the management team only lists people looking after the Auctions.


Doug

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
25 Apr 2022
12:55:43pm

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

we do both, Doug


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d1stamper

25 Apr 2022
01:11:13pm

Approvals

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Maybe it time to make a change. Take on another volunteer to look after only Approval books.

Doug

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michael78651

25 Apr 2022
07:27:43pm

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Are you volunteering, Doug?

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hfbaker

25 Apr 2022
09:34:52pm

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Out of curiosity, I took a quick look at the word wide approval books. Quite honestly, I don't see a problem. Most of the books are organized by country and many of them are selling quite well. I see a lot of desirable material being offered at very reasonable prices. Even the disorganized books contained a low percentage of common material.

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DannyS

25 Apr 2022
09:57:26pm

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

I think we are getting a bit over-agitated by WW books. I guess there is quite a bit of work put into even unsorted books. Just the scanning must take a lot of time. Best to just look on these unsorted books as being similar to trays of loose stamps dealers put out at stamp shows. At 5 cents a piece I find it hard to take umbrage. If you have time and you find it relaxing look through a few WW books. If they cause your blood pressure to rise, stop immediately and find something else to look at.

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cougar

28 Apr 2022
02:30:33pm

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

" I really don't see much of a difference between a mish mash book in no order with a title of Worldwide and a mish mash book in no order in a book called German Commeratives for example."



Based on the way I collect and organize my stamps, there is definitely a difference.

A book titled "Germany" I may not even open, unless it is very recent used stamps listed.

With the WW approval books posted , there are a few things to keep in mind:

1. The seller probably saw a good trade off between spending time organizing stamps and checking their catalog values, and listing them all at 5 cents a piece. In the lot there are possibly stamps from obscure countries and places which could not be listed in any other way, except in the Auctions section.

2. Considering the above, you night be able to find stamps you need in these books, that you will not find elsewhere and you may get them at a bargain price.

3. The disadvantage for the buyer is, they receive a large lot of unorganized stamps that will take a longer time to clear off the desk and put away into albums, stockbooks or glassine envelopes.

4. For the seller, the disadvantage is that they cannot get top prices for their stamps and likely many will remain unsold. I believe that one can sell a higher percentage of stamps in approval books organized by country and period , as opposed to listing the same stamps in a mish-mash book, and achieve better pricing too.
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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
30 Apr 2022
12:18:31pm

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

We are going to try an experiment....

Doug (D1Stamper) will serve as an auctioneer in the approvals area for three months. He will concentrate on the tidying the place up a bit.

Doug will have full authority of an auctioneer.

in our conversations, he has indicated that he will be aiming to keep all new books upstanding, organized.

Welcome him and please let him get his feet wet before writing with anything other than your congratulations and thanks.

David

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michael78651

30 Apr 2022
01:40:02pm

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Welcome, Doug. David will send you a kevlar jacket in a couple of weeks.

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philb

30 Apr 2022
05:07:20pm

Auctions

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Is David in supply now ?Happy

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Jansimon

collector, seller, MT member
30 Apr 2022
05:59:15pm

Approvals

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Is it kevlar nowadays? I thought it ought to be asbestos :-)

Welcome Doug!

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dell4c

30 Apr 2022
06:16:57pm

Auctions - Approvals

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Why not poll the members if they want any changes to how the approvals run. I have personally had lots of sales from worldwide books and am offended that an ongoing rant is just causing me more work when the people who I sell to have not registered any complaints. If you want to drive away sellers this is an excellent start on doing it

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Brechinite

30 Apr 2022
06:42:02pm

Auctions - Approvals

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

DannyS post above has something I have seldom seen on Stamporama that I can recall, namely 10 Likes.

Here is his post in full:-

"I think we are getting a bit over-agitated by WW books. I guess there is quite a bit of work put into even unsorted books. Just the scanning must take a lot of time. Best to just look on these unsorted books as being similar to trays of loose stamps dealers put out at stamp shows. At 5 cents a piece I find it hard to take umbrage. If you have time and you find it relaxing look through a few WW books. If they cause your blood pressure to rise, stop immediately and find something else to look at."



I may not agree with the statement BUT I could live with it.
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michael78651

30 Apr 2022
08:18:54pm

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

"Why not poll the members if they want any changes to how the approvals run. "



We are not making changes to how the approvals work. The rules remain unchanged.
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rrraphy

Retired Consultant APS#186030
30 Apr 2022
09:24:01pm

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Bob (dell4c), As ranter-in-chief At Wits End, let me say that as the only one here who was involved in the concept and the creation of Approval Books at SOR, and as one who also moderated it for over 2 years, I do feel a certain responsibility for keeping this unique platform from falling into utter mediocrity.

Worldwide is NOT the problem. Worldwide without the sellers following ANY of the (relaxed) rules is.


---------------------------------
As a reminder:
C19. All items in any approval book must be directly related to philately and be in the chosen approval book category. World-wide and other non-listed categories must be posted in the "World Wide" category, and must be neatly arranged by country and/or topic.

C20. Each item must be identified by number. The number must be positioned so that it is clearly visible and does not overlap any other item. Numbers should preferably be located on the left side of or directly underneath the item to which it relates.

C21. Multiple copies of an item are limited to three, except for offerings such as: collectible cancellation types, pre-cancels, color shades, etc., and must be placed together on the same page.
------------------------------------------------------

Your books are terrific and have always respected the rules. I never had any problem with them, or books similarly organized.

The problem arises in my mind from the need to check Worldwide Books closely, something our moderators have not done well if at all.
I do understand why, as it takes a lot of time.
That is why Worldwide was a banned category from the Approval Books at inception 5 years ago. We feared that WW books would become excuses for just throwing floor droppings into Approval Books. Some have.

WW was re-allowed later and this was followed by a general relaxation of the books rules, in particular rules about titles, organization etc... have been relegated to suggestions. under "Tips for Better Sales". I suppose it is all meant to facilitate the job of the Approval moderator.

Problem as I see it is one of balancing buyers and sellers conflicting needs, and keeping some standards. If books degrade a lot, fewer sales will result. If we tighten the rules a lot, fewer sellers will post books. The demands on the platform moderator should not be unreasonable as well.

If some of the rules we still have in place were respected and enforced, the ranter-in-chief would maybe shut up Rock On.

rrr...

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JohnnyStamp

02 May 2022
12:26:28am

Approvals

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

I took a quick look at the World Wide books to see what all the fuss is about. My thoughts or comments from what I saw:

1) Please don't post stamps on white pages (background). You need contrast to see the condition of the stamp.

2) A few people just dump their stamps onto the page as if they used a backhoe. Neat and orderly would surely improve sales.

3) A few sellers are cramming their stamps onto a page so almost every stamp is overlapping. Aaarrghh!

Generally most sellers are taking time and care to post their stamps in a orderly fashion. Much appreciated!

Larry

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cardstamp

03 May 2022
10:41:25am

Approvals

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Since I am someone that has sold thousands of stamps here over the years in Approval Books - I finally decided I need to add my opinion to this thread which I have been following. In all of the years as a seller here - I NEVER Once have created an approval book that was placed in the Worldwide Category. It has been awhile since I took a look at books in that category and I was shocked today to see some of them. If I wanted to do what others have done I could dump about 100 books in a week that look like that. I have thousands of leftover stamps and I could just slap them on pages and create books. I would never do that since I have always followed the rules. For example I may have a handful of stamps left from one country and a handful for a few others but not enough to make a meaningful book of at least 100 stamps - so I just hold onto those stamps until I have enough new material to merge the leftovers to create an appropriate book. It takes me quite some to put together my books and if I wanted to I could just dump everytihng into worldwide like I see others are doing. I have not had anyone complain about my books here in years and I would be open to constructive critisim but I feel kind of upset that I am taking the time to follow the rules and do things in an organized fashion and others are doing whatever they want. That's just how I feel... Steve

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ren437

03 May 2022
02:35:20pm

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

I have purchased quite a few SOR stamps over the years and most of them have been from approval books. I don't mind looking at worldwide books, but some of them really are a mess. How hard can it be to at least sort out the stamps by country before starting to fill up the approval book?

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psgStamper

03 May 2022
06:21:38pm

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

As a collector, I do not have a wealth of stamps from a single country that I could fill up an approval book. However, I do have enough stamps from a single country to fill a page or two. I have listed stamps in this manner in the "Worldwide" category where the approval book will contain stamps from several countries. Each page(s) are exclusive to a single country usually with Scott #'s or minimally in Scott order. Each page is also identified as to the country. There are probably quite a few collectors who also cannot readily fill a book with a single country. I feel this is a good use of the "Worldwide" category. As a side note, I must add that I usually do not look at books that are simply a hodgepodge of different country stamps with no order. It is simply too much trouble to try to determine which stamps I might be interested in. Just my two cents worth...
Paul

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BenFranklin1902

Tom in Exton, PA
04 May 2022
07:42:51am

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Simple solution. Start a category called "Floor Sweepings".Big Grin

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Brechinite

04 May 2022
12:23:19pm

Auctions - Approvals

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

We have a saying in Old Caledonia:

"One mans muck is another mans brass"

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
05 May 2022
11:18:33am

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

i wanted to update folks on our experiment:

Doug has been working hard, looking at approval books. He is telling those with rule-averse contents to make all FUTURE books conform to the rules. He is not asking people to revise existing books.

I know he's having some trouble with some people, and when he encounters that, he's deactivating new books.

As before, i'm asking you to let Doug do his job quietly or with applause and thanks.

David

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philb

05 May 2022
08:34:57pm

Auctions

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

By all means, let the man do his job .

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DannyS

06 May 2022
11:31:45pm

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

I hope we do approach regulation with a light touch. When I look through the worldwide books I think there could be other ways of encouraging a more organized way of displaying the sellers wares. A smaller minimum count for single country books could be one answer. This would be especially so with single topic books. Many of the worldwide books could easily supply 25 items of sports, arts, animals and flora. Just a thought on making it easier for members to trade their duplicates and unwanted stamps.

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JohnnyStamp

07 May 2022
12:33:00am

Approvals

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

I disagree Danny, we need to be strict and vigorously enforce the rules. The offending sellers will quickly realize that their efforts were wasted and that the only way their books will be accepted is if they follow the rules. They will get the point really fast.

I just looked at one of the latest High Value Books $$$ created and almost every stamp is damaged. The rule clearly states:

Not contain damaged, altered, fake, counterfeit, etc. items.

I'll reach out to Doug and see if he can do something about it, but this makes me angry that a few sellers figure they can do whatever they want and suffer no consequences.

Larry

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DannyS

07 May 2022
11:11:40pm

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Larry, my suggestion of smaller minimum counts on the books came from the feeling I have that it would help those members who really do want to just trade duplicates. What we seem to have now is a range of members who range between two extremes. At one end would be those who just enjoy collecting for collecting's sake and at the other would be those whose hobby is the buying and selling of stamps. Neither is wrong and many would fit somewhere in between. This has nothing to do with the condition of the stamps on offer. I see in the current auction we have common low value stamps with obvious problems. On the other hand for many of us there is certainly a place for space-fillers with very expensive stamps. I am one of those who find it hard to discard damaged common stamps, but I do force myself to. If an item is visibly damaged then buyers should ignore it and sellers should display a damaged notification. I suspect we are in agreement on that.

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JohnnyStamp

09 May 2022
02:37:00am

Approvals

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Yes Danny, I agree with many of the things you have said.

Larry

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
09 May 2022
09:36:26am

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

On damaged stamps, the rules are clear:

C22. Stamps with defects must be identified by entering the word "Damaged" in the description. This includes repairs, thins, creases, pulled or torn perforations, scuffs, tears, stains, extraneous writing or markings in ink or marker (other than owner/authentication marks), etc. Defective items are not permitted in High Value ($$$) Books.

If it's damaged, you must ID it as such. And, really, unless it's a pretty rare stamp, just toss the sucker. Or, as some people have done, use them as resource material in color or paper variations.

David, the auctioneer

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BenFranklin1902

Tom in Exton, PA
09 May 2022
10:53:57pm

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

or send them off to the Holocaust Project to be used in collages!

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HolocaustStamps

10 May 2022
09:43:34am

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Thanks for the plug Tommy!

With Covid winding down (for now) things are opening up again. Too late to get a school involved, so I am working with my local library to set up a space for the summer so kids can just drop in and clip/glue stamps to a template (like a colouring book).

Hopefully I can show some decent progress over the next 3-4 months.

Cheers, Dave.

P.S. Some people have told me "I'd like to donate stamps I don't need, but the US-Canada postal rates are usurious". Just to let you know, Steve Wilner ("cardstamp") has sent a regular envelope stuffed to the one ounce limit (so just requiring the one stamp) - every 2-3 weeks for the past two years or more!

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cougar

12 May 2022
12:22:31am

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

"I could dump about 100 books in a week that look like that. "



Better have the stamps listed in a disorderly book, than not at all.

The main issues I have had before with approval books were related to poor image quality, white backgrounds, unidentified thins.
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cardstamp

12 May 2022
10:21:20am

Approvals

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Dave,
Thanks - "I think" for sharing my secret of how I send you donations. When I get contacted by the postal authorities for doing this - I know who to blame - someone reading this here may be a "spy" ! Steve

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HolocaustStamps

12 May 2022
04:38:08pm

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

No worries Steve. I think the one person who might have ratted you out is no longer a member.

Dave

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philb

12 May 2022
06:52:46pm

Auctions

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

My Nephews a postal inspector in North Carolina...it paid better than being a State Trooper in Virginia..hes not looking for us..he takes videos of employees unable to work lifting weights in their garage or roofing their house.

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sheepshanks

28 May 2022
03:30:06pm

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Well here I am waiting for the Liverpool- Real Madrid soccer match to start, (delayed due to crowd into getting into ground) so thought ok , I'll spend some money on the approvals. Wrong, books disorganised, multiples of the same stamp on different pages, faults not noted.
No mention of whether the stamps without postmarks are mint, mint hinged, previously hinged or used without postmark or gum.
Stamps in absolutely no order despite all being one price.
Really folks if you are serious about selling stamps start at the shop window, my money is staying in my pocket for another day.
Looks like the soccer may be starting, despite the hundreds of fans who are still outside the stadium.

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philatelia

28 May 2022
04:27:38pm

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

In my experience, it’s uncomfortable to be approval book moderator, pitting yourself against other members, so stay tough, Doug and wear that Kevlar jacket mentioned earlier.

For me the only thing that worked was to simply create form letters that listed what was wrong with an approval book. If a book is not up to snuff, don’t send messages trying to cajole, wheedle, beg or grovel, simply disable the book and then send them the official sounding form letter telling them what rules are not being followed and what they have to do to correct it. If they don’t like it, too bad. You break a rule, there are consequences, end of subject. The book is not activated until it is fully in compliance.

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philb

28 May 2022
05:41:09pm

Auctions

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Its over now Sheepshanks !

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sheepshanks

28 May 2022
05:53:06pm

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Yep, Liverpool lost to a keeper who had a brilliant game, behind a defence that really worked well as a team.

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rrraphy

Retired Consultant APS#186030
29 May 2022
02:52:12pm

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

I understand that we no longer have an Approval Book Moderator.
I would have expected the courtesy of Management to inform the rest of us.

It is a shame, because I noticed some definite improvements for a while, and now once more it is a mess! Thanks Doug for your temporary and effective efforts while you moderated Approvals.

From Sheepshank just yesterday (edited):

"Well ... so I thought ok , I'll spend some money on the approvals. Wrong, books disorganised, multiples of the same stamp on different pages, faults not noted.
No mention of whether the stamps without postmarks are mint, mint hinged, previously hinged or used without postmark or gum.
Stamps in absolutely no order despite all being one price.
Really folks if you are serious about selling stamps start at the shop window, my money is staying in my pocket for another day."




Theresa (Philatelia) , who moderated Approvals for a while said it best (edited):

"In my experience, it’s uncomfortable to be approval book moderator, pitting yourself against other members, so stay tough, Doug and wear that Kevlar jacket mentioned earlier.
..... If a book is not up to snuff, don’t send messages trying to cajole, wheedle, beg or grovel, simply disable the book and then send them the official sounding form letter telling them what rules are not being followed and what they have to do to correct it. If they don’t like it, too bad. You break a rule, there are consequences, end of subject. The book is not activated until it is fully in compliance "

.

What went wrong? And let me add that doing nothing is not a solution.

From JohnnyStamps (edited)

": we need to be strict and vigorously enforce the rules. The offending sellers will quickly realize that their efforts were wasted and that the only way their books will be accepted is if they follow the rules. They will get the point really fast.
I just looked at one of the latest High Value Books $$$ created and almost every stamp is damaged. The rule clearly states:
Not contain damaged, altered, fake, counterfeit, etc. items.

...... this makes me angry that a few sellers figure they can do whatever they want and suffer no consequences"

.

rrr...

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musicman

APS #213005
29 May 2022
06:24:47pm

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Apparently. this discussion thread is the place for those who want to moan, groan and complain that things aren't to their own personal liking -

so be it.

Just make sure you KEEP it here so the rest of us can ignore it.



Now -

3 of us (all approval book moderators - NONE of which is Ralph) are working out some NEW & IMPROVED sellers' rules for the Approvals platform. THIS is what we have been busy with.

Some time this coming week we should have it all in place.


In the meantime, please feel free to continue your idle ranting.

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Gudgie

P!ease ask by private message if you wish my home address.

29 May 2022
08:34:14pm

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

I’ve read this forum since it began 3 months ago. I’ve not posted or conversed with anyone who contributed to it. I thought the opening contribution by rraphy sailed a little close to the wind in what he said, and I did not recognise many of the problems he complained about. I felt he was getting worked up about a small issue, but many members on here continually complain about very minor issues.

I said “I did not recognise many of the problems”. I did not say all of what he said in his contribution. I recognised complaints to moderators, or board members go unanswered. I’ve complained to moderators, and correspondence goes unacknowledged and unanswered.

I buy lots of stamps but never look at World Wide so this thread wasn’t of great interest to me. I’ve seen some awful books, and I stay clear of those sellers. If an image shows a stamp with all 4 perfs., and the price is right, I’m happy to run with it. To be honest, I’ve rarely been disappointed in anything I’ve bought on SoR.

I get more annoyed by professional stamp vendors who ignore rules continually. There is a place for covers, for cinderellas, and for most countries, but the same sellers continually waste my time scrolling through hundreds of these items before I find a stamp. No action is taken against them. I’ve complained privately and not received the courtesy of a response.

Rrraphy saw a rule being broken, and the people who broke the rule were not sanctioned. He complained privately but received no response from moderators. What should he then do?

It would have been simple to advise members that 3 Approval Book moderators have worked to address issues raised in this discussion, and they hoped to present a solution in the next week. Instead musicman waded in with all guns blazing. Musicman’s diatribe reminds me of an online stamp “Club” based in Australia where no criticism of any aspect of the “Club” is tolerated by the owner, and which all self respecting collectors stay miles away from.

It’s tough being an unpaid volunteer. You do all the work and take all the flak. I appreciate musicman does help out, working as a moderator, and he is trying to address points which rrraphy raised. The details he gave, lost in his diatribe, in my opinion are 3 months too late.

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
29 May 2022
09:37:36pm

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

John

thanks for your comments.

I don't think you've written me privately; if you have, I don't recall.

Ralph and I have spoken several times privately; both of us have initiated those conversations. Ralph also compalins often and loudly in public fora; I tend not to reply to those, mostly because we've covered those complaints before, many, many, many times.

I've suggested to Ralph, both privately and publicly, that any time he wants to send me an offending page, I'll take a look. Ralph does not want to do that; he far prefers others do that work.

We had a new volunteer helping out for a while, but his personal life required he step away.

We also have a number of members whose age contributes to difficulties. Those whose hands shake and whose sight is diminished have a tough time.

One of our moderators took a vacation; another is working on a project. I've done some moderating, but not a whole lot, and the few approvals I've viewed mostly met the rules (imperfectly, but since we're the ones enforcing the rules, we determine how stringent to be). But, Right now, the three auctioneers have been trying to deal with the approval issue.

There are many who would agree with your appraisal:

"I thought the opening contribution by rraphy sailed a little close to the wind in what he said, and I did not recognise many of the problems he complained about. I felt he was getting worked up about a small issue"

I do.

David








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rrraphy

Retired Consultant APS#186030
29 May 2022
09:51:54pm

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

The problem Musicman is that while members can ignore my "ranting" I think Management should take action when informed about problems or when they work at moderating themselves instead of just wearing a name tag.
I was under the impression we had a new moderator, and when I contacted him again, as I had in the past, to report some new rule violations, I was notified privately that he no longer was the moderator. For a while, things had improved dramatically, showing a moderator working at the job can acheive significant improvements. And then, things went sour again, which is why I attempted to report to him again,
Management, you included, could have bothered to inform the rest of us, instead of advising us to disregard my complaints. It would not be necessary to post again with information about why things had degraded, and I don't enjoy having to do it, in spite of what you may think.

Note that I was only responding to several other members' posts!

And attacking the messenger instead of solving the problem is a defensive move that fools no one.

rrr...

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rrraphy

Retired Consultant APS#186030
29 May 2022
10:03:56pm

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

David: re

" I've suggested to Ralph, both privately and publicly, that any time he wants to send me an offending page, I'll take a look. Ralph does not want to do that; he far prefers others do that work."



It is true, because I find I just cannot work with you. It was pointless.
I worked quite well with others, who can testify to it here, if they want.
rrr...

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Brechinite

30 May 2022
05:05:29am

Auctions - Approvals

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

It was interesting to read that there may be upcoming changes to the Rules governing the Approvals to be announced this week.

We already have "Rules". They are good or bad depending on the individuals own perception.

Rules, like most things, only work if they are enforced.

May I suggest a couple of things.

a) Remove the Worldwide Category as it appears to be the more contentious category.

b) Put in a minimum price of say 10 cents per stamp.

c) Put in a minimum Book Value of say $15.00. (Many Clubs have a minimum Book Value placed on their Club Books)

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Soundcrest

30 May 2022
08:15:31am

Auctions - Approvals

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Interesting ideas Ian, but they present some problems as far as I can see with my own sales. A minimum price of 10 cents per stamp, is there a way to determine what percentage of stamps here sell for less than 10 cents? I suspect at least half. Of late I could not even sell stamps for a penny at auction - so I discontinued penny auctions. All auctions may be discontinued by the end of June as the auction market at least for me, is almost non existent.

I don't bother making up worldwide books due to the fallout that they seem to get. People who do have them seem to do well with them if the stamps are cheap enough. While people complain about them, how many people who currently buy from them would buy from other books if the w/w were not available? Part of the problem with books is the requirements for a book in the first place. If for argument sake I was looking for stamps from a country where it is just about impossible to have 100 stamps from that country, where might I look if there was no worldwide category? Worldwide SHOULD exist but should have geographic specifics attached to it, AND stamps should be in country order within the area. I don't see where that is a difficult thing to do.

It will be interesting to see what "new rules" are set out for the sellers here. Personally, I feel all books should be indexed, and if Scott catalogs are the problem (cost prohibitive), I get that, except how are sellers assigning a value to a stamp in a book if they are not looking them all up to begin with. Is it random? Could a person find a $10 stamp in a book priced at a dime with no catalog number? I seriously doubt that. I would be willing to bet that almost everyone who has books in anything except world wide 5 cent mish mash books has access to a set of Scotts. If I was a buyer for my own collection, and was looking for a specific stamp, there is no way I would spend the time going through a book that did not have catalog numbers. Perhaps people don't collect as I did anymore.

Greg

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Flemming

30 May 2022
09:22:09am

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

I'm just a collector but one day I may be a seller to clean out my duplicates, and worldwide would definetly be one of the categories I would need as I wouldn't have enough stamps worth posting to complete a book for a single country. I also expect a lot of the stamps would be in the 5 cent price range.

When I look to buy from a book I rely on the catalog number. My want lists are by catalog number and if a book doesn't have catalog numbers I skip it. For some of the countries I collect, water marks are critical, and without a catalog reference you don't know what you're getting. I have taken chances and hence the duplicates Smug The catalog number also provides a quick reference if I think a stamp is overpriced. I have seen examples where stamps are listed on the auction at 150-200% catalog value.

So based on my criteria -- no catalgo number, no lookie -- I don't see the worldwide books that people are complaining about, and quite frankly I don't care. I respect rules and I think people should follow them when assembling their books to maintain a level of quality in SR, but if they sell their stamps all mixed up with questionable quality, then who's to argue.

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rrraphy

Retired Consultant APS#186030
30 May 2022
12:27:02pm

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Greg:

"If for argument sake I was looking for stamps from a country where it is just about impossible to have 100 stamps from that country, where might I look if there was no worldwide category? Worldwide SHOULD exist but should have geographic specifics attached to it, AND stamps should be in country order within the area. I don't see where that is a difficult thing to do.
"



Countries where it is hard to assemble 100 stamps were always exempted. The seller just had to get the ok of the administrator. I issued books of say 80 stamps for Cilicia, or Saar for example, where reaching 100 would be a tough task. It was always allowed to group countries within defined regions.
So to return to my example, one could issue a book called French/Middle East, and group Cilicia with Alouites, Alexandretta etc...and list them in the title. Note that we also went from 200 to 100 to make it easier.
And within our category system, having Approvals with more than one country as always allowed, and always have been, as long as the countries are defined in the title, and grouped by region. So Belgium, Italy, Luxembourg could all be grouped under "Other Europe".
So the argument for the 100 stamps is just an excuse. Really, if you cannot put a book of related material of 100 items (including duplicates) within a norrower context, should you even try to sell in an Approval?
By the way Worldwide is only a problem because it encourages folks to produce books with their floor droppings. This has been proven, again and again.

Greg, in a book with a combined set of related countries, it was also required to group the stamps, within price brackets. So that books would have some level of organization to them. Grouping by country, and grouping of the duplicates.
More specific titles, were always intended to guide the buyer, withiout having to search forever in random books.
By the way, it was always felt that one should NOT regulate pricing.

rrr...

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rrraphy

Retired Consultant APS#186030
30 May 2022
01:13:18pm

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Since the rules are being looked at, as per Musicman, here is the original set of rules written by Bobby Barhhart at the start of Approvals in 2016, and then modified after some experience was accumulated by the development team. There were further modification on a number of issues, such as retiring books etc, but the essence of the rules is here, and simple to understand. All this is preserved in documentation under "Approval Project/Original". I suggest you take a look at history instead of reinventing the wheel.

"#1 All items (stamps, sets, S/S, FDC, etc...) are clearly visible as scanned and numbered from 1 to n on each page?
NOTE: Please make sure that you indicate clearly any known defects. Please scan at a high enough resolution to clearly show the listed material.

Yes No

#2 Each item (stamps, sets, S/S, FDC, etc...) has its own individual number, clearly associated with it?
NOTE: No numbering by rows; no hidden numbers. Please make an effort to structure your books in an organized fashion.

Yes No


#3 The book offers a SUBSTANTIAL selection with a MINIMUM of 100 items (mix of stamps, sets, S/S, FDC, etc.) in the chosen collectible area and no more than 3 copies of any individual item?
NOTE: The Moderator may grant an exception for some books (offering a combination of stamps, sets, S/S, covers, etc.), and for countries or topics where a limited stamp selection may make the minimum item requirement difficult to achieve. Exceptions to the "3 Copies Rule" can also be claimed for cancellation varieties, if notated. To get an exception for your book, you must contact the Moderator to obtain a waiver before you publish your book. Books consisting exclusively of covers, sheets, S/S, complete sets, etc., must meet a minimum of 24 items, and are subject to Moderator review.

Yes No
#4 The book offers stamps in WELL DEFINED, collectible topics that are clearly described in its TITLE and listed in the corresponding Approval Books Category?
NOTE: Please do NOT compile books with unrelated material, "floor sweepings", and do NOT combine unrelated countries or topics, etc.. Your book must fit one of our categories. Make sure the title contains enough information, such as year range, catalog number range, condition, topical subject, etc. to define precisely its content.

Yes No
If your answer to all these questions is YES, then you may publish your book.

If you are unsure of an answer, you may message the Approval Books Moderator for an opinion.

If the Moderator determines that your published book is not in compliance with these simple rules, your book may be deactivated until it is edited appropriately, or you submit a request for a waiver from one of more of the rules.

WARNING: Do not relist old material as new after short periods of time. This defies the purpose of the New Books list and is unfriendly towards other member-sellers and buyers alike. Approval Books must remain active for a reasonable duration, not just a short time. Approval books are not to be used as quick auction substitutes, nor as "stores".

Sellers must monitor their book sales. Approval Books must be deactivated when depleted (> 90% sold), when no sales have occurred for several months, or after ONE year from the date the book was published.

Stamporama reserves the right to revoke selling privileges of members who violate the Approval Book Rules."
"




rrr....
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Brechinite

30 May 2022
02:12:24pm

Auctions - Approvals

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

" All auctions may be discontinued by the end of June as the auction market at least for me, is almost non existent."



Greg

I am saddened to read the above.

I have gleaned some info on the auctions from the reports available.

March and April Sales were quite similar with a slight improvement in price per item realised in April.

However delving deeper into the information available for Auctions it would appear that 5 Sellers account for over 50% of items listed.

With a daily average of Items available ie 7100 that 3550 are listed by 5 Sellers and 3550 listed by 24 Sellers. If you are one of the 24 then the suggestion is that your items are not being noticed as they are "swamped" by the 5.

The whole issue of Sales on this site whether it be Auctions or Approvals is down to one single issue. Whatever one "moans or groans" about what is wrong with the system fades into insignificance of the underlying cause.

Lack of Members.


Edit.

At the moment of typing 70 visitors are listed but only 10 logged in,

In the past few weeks I never ever seen 20 or more members logged in at the same time.
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30 May 2022
02:51:46pm

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

"In the past few weeks I never ever seen 20 or more members logged in at the same time."



There are probably less than you think! I, for one, quite often don't log out and I bet I'm not the only one! Sorry about that!!

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Brechinite

30 May 2022
04:02:12pm

Auctions - Approvals

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Harvey

One day last week when I checked in I was the only one logged on!!

When you consider that there are 499 members mentioned on the Home Page. Where are they all??????

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Brechinite

30 May 2022
06:48:29pm

Auctions - Approvals

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

In a previous post I stated

"With a daily average of Items available ie 7100 that 3550 are listed by 5 Sellers and 3550 listed by 24 Sellers. If you are one of the 24 then the suggestion is that your items are not being noticed as they are "swamped" by the 5."



I must amend that statement to read ie 7100 that 3700 are listed by 3 sellers and 3400 listed by 26 Sellers.


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philb

30 May 2022
09:24:52pm

Auctions

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Ian i often wonder about the 500 members...they pay their dues..yet the vast majority do not seem to bid or post in the discussions.. seems weird if you belong to something... oh well.

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angore

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31 May 2022
06:17:24am

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

This thread is starting to take a longer time to load.

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Soundcrest

31 May 2022
06:56:26am

Auctions - Approvals

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Ian, swamped is a good word. I also believe you can talk about filters till you are blue in the face so to speak, and no one is going to use them, or probably better put, many people will not use them. I noticed a drop off right away when the run forever option was put out there. The spread sheet really is easy. I had been using it for years. More than the swamping though, I am thinking the economy is paying a critical part in the drop off. Auctions at every venue I list at have been almost nil over the past couple of months. My other things, that are not stamps have remained steady. I also think that a collector will always collect, but what they collect will change. The person who would spend $10 a week so to speak and get say, 25 stamps for their collection, will now still get 25 stamps, but they only have $5 to spend. That being said, those 3-5 cent mish mash books become appealing especially if the collector decides to take up a topical, and does not mind CTO stamps in their collection. They also will not care about condition. I am sure you have seen old time albums with stamps from back in the early 1900s. The condition of what was saved is beyond belief. Yet it filled a space in their album. I don't think the average collector is collecting thinking they are creating a nest egg for the future. I hope not anyway unless they are really collecting very high end stamps. They are collecting for the fun of it, which is why I never understood the anger over a stamp in a book that was failed to have "short perf" or some other crazy thing mentioned as part of the condition, especially when we are talking about stamps that catalog for under a dollar. I guess thats just me, as this topic constantly comes up in discussion. If I was to get back into collecting, I probably lean toward US Match & Medicine and Non Scott US REvenues. If you are familiar with M&M, to find them completely undamaged is VERY difficult and quite possibly would cost at least 100% Scott. Collectors will purchase repaired or damaged stamps in this area. I certainly would if the price was right. Same with the dated Red & Green US revenues. Try finding the highest denominations that have not been perfin cancelled. To some that sort of cancel is an eyesore on a stamp. For those looking to complete their reds and greens, they would take them in that condition knowing there are no others available. I won't make a book of them. I only know one collector who would be interested....

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cardstamp

02 Jun 2022
11:10:27am

Approvals

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

I have been following this thread and have refrained from saying anything new. I have noticed since last year when the membership rules started that I had been putting up new approval books for a small group of my regular buyers. I rarely see a new buyer for any of my books. That worked OK for the year but as time has gone on and I create new books - there is only so much brand new items that have not been seen before - so with the same group of buyers - the sales have gone down for me. The regulars I have pick out the "new" items but the rest just sit there. The last few months have been the worse since the second year of membership started - did we have a drop in the number of members ?

As others have said the first few days of a new book see 90% of the sales. I started taking down books before they reach the threshold of closing soon. I either move some of the stamps to my other selling site, keep the leftovers and merge with other stamps to create a future new book or just donate the stamps that are just no longer worth the effort to keep and try to sell again. Lately no matter what book I put up the sales have been much lower than they used to be. I feel like I am waisting my time putting them together. Add the fact that now with the new reporting of sales over $600 for the year will be rpeorted on a 1099 - I am starting to think that maybe I will have to scale down in the future.

Steve

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Soundcrest

02 Jun 2022
07:25:42pm

Auctions - Approvals

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Steve I'm still thinking its the economy or more directly inflation. Unless you have a reasonably good income 20-30% increase in things over last year hurts. Something has to be cut out of the budget. I see it on eBay and hip as well for stamps. The other things I sell have not seen a drop off. Keep in mind too all those covid checks that were handed out like play money to people who didn't need them. What that provided was a boost to retail which is what we are a part of. Without those checks sales come back to earth.

I have scaled back and will do so until things change, but honestly I do not see that happening any time soon. I will just keep my feet wet in the water here. Because I make up small books a collection might give me 3-4 books. Smaller books are also easier to break down and redo so to speak if necessary. Giving uncle upwards of 12% does not help either as it amounts to a decrease in already reduced revenues. My wife likes the fact that i have cut out about 10 hours of work a week Personally I think next year you will see more international sellers than domestic ones. It remains to be seen what happens to the collectibles market across all things. I am certainly winning auction lots for resale in postcards at prices that are 1/3 of what I would have spent a year ago. I stopped bidding on stamp lots as I have a lot that needs to be gone through.

Greg

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cougar

03 Jun 2022
12:56:09am

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

"Unless you have a reasonably good income 20-30% increase in things over last year hurts. Something has to be cut out of the budget."



Greg, you are hitting it right on the head. In my neck of the woods, as probably everywhere else in Canada and the US, food went up by 20-30%. A box of juice I could find at $2.50/piece with some luck - now I need the same luck to buy it at $3.50, because the regular price would be $3.99-$4.99. And this goes across everything - fruits, vegetables, food for my dog. Gas that we could get at $1.20/liter or less is now $2.09 / liter.

So when we have hundreds of transactions a month and they are all inflated in this way, the final card balance is surprising to say the least. If wages don't follow suit, people feel unsafe and cut off all unnecessary purchases. We just don't know where all this is going to take us. The prediction here is that by the end of summer gas will hit $3/ liter and above - again affecting all other prices along the chain. All goods are transported from somewhere and mostly or exclusively with fossil fuels.
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Soundcrest

03 Jun 2022
03:09:20am

Auctions - Approvals

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Jules, yes, food prices have soared here. When the price is the same, the package weight is less. For some things, there has been minimum increases due to the fact that we live in farm country, so produce, eggs and milk have not seen much in the way of an increase. We have a huge freezer in the garage so we buy the sales. But gas prices do affect everything, and I too have read of the expected $10 a gallon gas in California this summer. I've lived through the inflation 70's so I have seen this before. The real issue is, how do you end it.

I've mentioned before that an old dealer that got me into the game back in 1980 once told me - you can't eat stamps. You are selling something that no one really needs, just wants. And when it comes down to putting food on the table or a stamp into an album, you can't eat stamps. My weekly sales here, and I know I have cut back which is part of it, is about 25% of what it was a year ago. No complaints, I expected it. But to beat your head against the wall and just put more stamps up for sale expecting a huge increase in sales, to me anyway, is non productive. Simply take a break, and wait for things to get better. This is the beauty of the "auction store". Once you understand the spreadsheet, and the fact that you must be careful not to relist a sold item, the amount of work is minimal on a weekly basis. Before long I think most sellers will figure that out. You then look at it with thought of "if it sells, it sells. If not there is always the potential of next week"

Greg




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cardstamp

03 Jun 2022
10:43:09am

Approvals

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Greg,
You are probably right - it all ls boiling down to Inflation. I have been selling on and off online (started with EBAY then BIDSTART) for about 14 years. This is the first time in all of these years where there has been inflation like we have now. I think now that I am well over the new threshold of $600 for a 1099 - I will go slower the rest of the year with adding new books here and putting up new material in Hip as well. Steve

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HolocaustStamps

04 Jun 2022
08:12:46am

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Reading these comments, I'm absolutely gob-smacked that governments chase after folks who have revenues of $600 of stamps sold (ignoring the acquisition and distribution costs). Many of whom may use the money to buy stamps from other folks (so ultimately a trade/exchange mechanism).

Meanwhile, they let their cronies invest millions/billions in off-shore tax havens to evade taxes, and use Super-PACs to pay for haircuts and spray tans; or let cults call themselves religions to get tax-exempt status and become real estate empires.

It just seems wrong, wrong, wrong.

Moderators: If this is deemed too political feel free to remove it. But I'm disgusted that these recent policies have many well-intentioned "small-fry" folks in a group like this rethinking their service to others while the 1% become the 0.5%...I just have to say it. No apologies.

Dave.

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hfbaker

04 Jun 2022
11:43:34am

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Dave, I think you may have a misunderstanding of the implications of the $600 revenue reporting requirement. This only requires you to file a Schedule C (profit or loss from a business). You will be able to deduct your acquisition and distribution costs. It is quite likely that your net income from this "business" will be near zero. The IRS does not have the resources to question the expense deductions of small volume retail sales operations.

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BenFranklin1902

Tom in Exton, PA
04 Jun 2022
11:43:54am

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

"Reading these comments, I'm absolutely gob-smacked that governments chase after folks who have revenues of $600 of stamps sold (ignoring the acquisition and distribution costs). Many of whom may use the money to buy stamps from other folks (so ultimately a trade/exchange mechanism)."



The law was always there, just not enforced, nearly voluntary. And pretty much so because it was a cash business that was hard to track. Enter in easy to track cashless transactions like Paypal, eBay etc. Now it's documented and enforceable.

I'm doing a fair number a month on eBay. Note that I won't be taxed for this entire amount. I will have to file a schedule C for my 1099 income (which I do anyway for my consulting), and I will have to document my expenses. That's why I spend very little cash, I might have $10 in my wallet in case I want a soda or something, and I use my debit card for everything. Aside from that, I have a folder that sits on my desk for receipts.

End of year, everything from eBay fees to postage, printer cartridges, internet bill, my laptop and cell phone (apportioned) are all legitimate expenses. Replenishment of inventory, some of which lands in my collection, too. Hopefully I can explain away any taxability on this income.
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musicman

APS #213005
04 Jun 2022
12:52:46pm

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

Is it possible we could close this thread and continue it in a new thread?
It's gotten REALLLLLY long!

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HolocaustStamps

04 Jun 2022
01:08:47pm

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

I'm with you Randy! Here's my last kick at the can, then I'm shutting up...

And to Harry's point...I understand that if it is business income the expenses can be also reported. My point (perhaps understated rather than misunderstood) is that the government is requiring reporting/paperwork for such a small amount, regardless of whether it is from an actual "business" or just some person selling off personal stuff no longer needed/wanted.

I still assert governments could use their energies more productively (regardless if it is a new or resurrected policy, to Tom's point).

Dave.

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cougar

05 Jun 2022
01:41:14am

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

"I still assert governments could use their energies more productively"



I totally agree, Dave, but they don't. The big fish are too strong for them, so they go after the fry.

What bothers me is, they ask you to do things that require a lot of time and some bookkeeping knowledge, they ask you to complete forms, mail things, respond to their questions and on and on while NOBODY IS PAYING YOU FOR THE TIME WASTED. They however are paid for every minute spent on our files, and from our money too.
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angore

Al
Collector, Moderator
05 Jun 2022
05:52:26am

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

I assume the companies that pay taxes want others in the less regulated economy to do so as well especially the small and medium business without the money to dodge taxes. Let's take every brick and mortar stamp store. They usually have a local business license and pay local, state, and federal taxes and compete with online sellers but that is not the only reason they are disappearing. In some stamp shows, local tax authorities have forced dealers to pay local sales taxes

If every online seller contacted a CPA many will find they are operating as a business and should pay taxes. Do you think many would? All these new rules are an attempt to collect taxes on a not well documented transactions but with mega sites like ebay they have a method to see commercial transactions that could be taxed. I would not be surprised if they require a tax identification number for all sellers.

Even SOR has to pay taxes so part of the operating expense.

It would be less paperwork if they made it a simple value added sales tax where the tax is paid at time of transaction and not paid later as part of some income tax filing that allows deductions or graduated tax rates.

My state requires payment of sales tax for out of state purchases.

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michael78651

05 Jun 2022
11:13:55am

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

"In some stamp shows, local tax authorities have forced dealers to pay local sales taxes"



That's not accurate. Businesses collect sales taxes from the buyers, and submit the collected taxes to the proper entity/entities depending on each state's requirements. For some states it is a bookkeeping nightmare. Businesses do not pay sales taxes on their sales. Sales are income, and subject to business income taxes. They do pay sales taxes on items that they purchase that are not bought for resale. If the sales tax is not paid to the seller, then the business has to declare purchases not intended for resale on their sales tax submittal, and pay the appropriate sales tax at that time.

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hfbaker

05 Jun 2022
04:30:21pm

re: Another of the Approval Rules being totally disregarded. (and a suggestion)

" would not be surprised if they require a tax identification number for all sellers."



They do.

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