Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
12:46:38pm
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OK - one question - are you willing to pay the $10 USD S/H fee that it costs to LEGALLY send that stamp to you in Canada?
A stamp is classified as "goods" whether it costs a nickel, a hundred dollars, or is a gift.
"Goods" sent across borders fall under the UPU. So that one stamp will require special packaging to make it a parcel, a customs form, and if the seller is going to use stamps a trip to the post office because anything with a customs form attached where stamps are used as a form of payment MUST be handed to a window clerk.......
Why not just stick it in an envelope like many dealers do ? Because it is illegal.
Victimless crime ???? I think the college admissions fiasco in the states here is a victimless crime - it's been done for a long time in different ways but always with the same results and then professors have to deal with finding a way to graduate the little darlings - ask me how I know.....
They will never catch me - see above. If the government decides to crack down on something they are very good at it.......
Anyway - would you still purchase the stamp if you had to pay the cost to have it legally shipped into Canada....
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Although my stamp auctions here on StampoRama are open to all, I do have my store on another site limited to just USA residents. There are two reasons for this.
The first was that the high postage costs to ship stamps (merchandise) outside of the United States requires that I charge a high shipping fee to cover my own costs. I used to allow everyone to purchase from my store on this other site, but was continually bombarded by questions as to my high shipping fee. Most understood my reason once I spent the time typing out a long response explaining the reason, but some still pleaded with me to BREAK THE LAW because they did not wish to pay this shipping fee. If someone was to garner the attention of any authorities that decided to crack down on shipments of merchandise leaving the United States without the proper customs form attached and with the required method of shipment (First Class International Package), it would be me, not the person to who the letter was addressed. In other words, they were asking me to take on all liability so that they could have a lower shipping cost.
A few who questioned my high shipping fee got very belligerent about it and ended up being very abusive in their email responses. I very quickly got fed up with that.
The other reason that I stopped offering international shipments on this other site is because I was set up there as a store. A buyer could not purchase some items and come back another day and purchase some more and combine shipping; as soon as a purchase was made of however many stamps, they immediately had to pay for the entire order including shipping. A potential buyer could not place items in their shopping cart and come back another day and add more items to the cart without having to worry about someone else buying some of the stamps that they had picked out. Since I was continually adding items, they often wanted to purchase new items every couple of days but just could not justify numerous lower amount purchases, with each one having a high shipping fee.
If anyone wonders why I have a six-month period over which one can purchase items I place for auction here on StampoRama before payment must be made (with only one shipping charge for all), this is the reason why. The shipping charge is still high, but if you can accumulate auction wins for extended period of time, it allows one to lower the percentage of the order that is going to pay for shipping.
International orders do take more time to package for shipment because I must generate the customs form and attach it to the photomailer in which I send international shipments. Other than that, it is really no issue.
I think most that limit international shipments do so because they assume that no one outside of the United States will be willing to pay the high shipping costs. I prefer to the let the buyer make his own decision and leave it up to each person to make up their own mind what they are willing to pay in a shipping cost. Whatever you do though, DO NOT COMPLAIN ABOUT THE SHIPPING FEES! This is not a complaint about you since you have purchased items from me, it is intended for others.
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05:01:48pm
I DO NOT WANT ANYONE TO BREAK THE LAW!!! I will pay the real cost, but it would be nice if the sellers would wait for a reasonable amount to build up rather than sending me an invoice for $0.25. I always pay when invoiced so it's up to you, but I really try to deal with people who either wait or get in touch asking me what I prefer. If I spend a small amount and then don't find anything from you for at least a month please invoice me and I will gladly pay THE FULL LEGAL AMOUNT! I don't want to seem angry, but I really am willing to pay the extra $10 to get stamps I really want. It's only money! I promise I will never and have never got upset over shipping costs, but why not let the buyer have the choice of paying or not paying instead of telling me I can't buy your items. But, on the other hand, I understand the other side since I wouldn't like being hassled by cheapskates not willing to pay!
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Although Carol is vehement in her opinion I am not entirely convinced she has it right.
I have been looking through some of the USPS rules on-line and don’t see what she is trying to paraphrase. There certainly seems to be more restrictions (hence paperwork and higher costs) for “items of a commercial nature” but I haven’t seen the general word “goods” applied yet, nor a definition that might include sending a low-value stamp to someone in Canada who has given you nominal consideration in the form of a trader stamp or cash money.
And when I asked at our post office about this and it being a UPU rule that must apply to us they looked at me blankly and said “never heard of it, it’s probably part of the US trade wars”.
Does anyone have a specific reference they can point to on this issue rather than general opinion? And has anyone asked for clarification specific to our Activities? Finally, if this is the case, does this not spell the end of US-based eBay, Amazon, etc dealing with Canadians?
Seems like an important issue we should all be concerned with getting right.
Looking forward to more Objective info (and no inflammatory self-righteous commentary) since we are all friends here, right?
Dave
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I think Michael numbers has it at his fingertips - if not let someone else tilt at windmills here. I'm sick to death of defending what has appeared countless times on all of the stamp websites including this one.
I never did homework for my kids - not going to start doing it for others now.
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06:27:33pm
I trust all sellers on SoR to do what is right, I have bought from many of you and am extremely happy with the service. I always pay what is asked and will always do so, since I do not sell I trust the sellers to do what they consider to be right and legal. You really are a great group of people who have provided me with hundreds of great items. I think that rather than not sell internationally it would be easier to tell the international buyers the true cost and if we prefer not to pay it well we can pass on your item. Then the choice is ours. I also buy a lot of things on other sites and the one thing that turns me away from a sale is not high shipping (unless it is outrageous), what gets me is the comment "shipping to be determined later". No one should buy an item unless they know the cost at the time of purchase. Just my humble opinion.
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Lemaven says:-
"And when I asked at our post office about this and it being a UPU rule that must apply to us they looked at me blankly and said “never heard of it, it’s probably part of the US trade wars""
The UK is a member of the UPU.
There is no such rule applicable to "goods" or "merchandise" in the UK. We are only asked the type of goods within to determine whether they are on the restricted goods list like chemicals or lithium batteries etc etc etc.
It would appear therefore that this expensive shipping cost has been instigated by the United States postal authorities.
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OK, I did a little homework, as I was curious about this.
Here is the official wording, as this was snipped from the United States Postal Service website...
Here is the definition of "non-negotiable"...
If you sell or exchange stamps worldwide, you need a Customs Form to be legal.
Linus
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07:03:02pm
Does anyone on SoR work for customs? If an item comes to me with a customs form I would notice and I don't remember seeing any, I could be wrong since I buy many items on E-Bay and they usually go through customs and sometimes get held up for two weeks or so. I remember a small piece of Sandwich Glass that was held up in customs in Montreal for over two weeks while they tried to figure out what it was! I very rarely have had stamps go through customs. There is one major E-Bay seller I have bought large stamp lots from several times and never has customs been involved. I don't think people are intentionally breaking the law, I think that (like me) they had no idea. Please charge me the legal rate and I will pay - I don't want you to not sell to me because I am foreign - I want your stamps!
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Joe,
You purchased a Batum stamp from me a couple of months ago. It was shipped with customs forms (3 copies) attached to the photo-mailer envelope in a see-through glue-backed packet.
Remember?
Richard Pauls (okstamps)
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07:31:02pm
Yes, Richard, I do remember - I thought about that just after I posted the last comment. It was not the typical stamp buy since it was a great treasure and required as much care as possible. I also bought some wonderful pieces from Greg that required more care than normal. I've bought some amazing pieces from SoR and they hold special places in my collections. I've looked at the Batum stamp many times and enjoy it over and over again. What I'm not sure about is whether I have ever paid for the custom's forms for a 25 cent stamp. By the way I have recently bought 3 really nice Canadian pieces from you and am perfectly willing to pay for the customs form to get the pieces. If I weren't willing to pay the fees I shouldn't buy the stamps. Again, great thanks to all of you for the great stamps, whether they be part of a penny auction or stamps that have large costs attached!
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Different countries handle the importation of merchandise in many various ways. As a resident of the United States, I have purchased large volumes of philatelic material from various auction houses and stamp dealers in Europe and especially from one auction house in England. I have received many large heavy boxes from this auction house over the years. I have never had to pay a single penny in customs duties and am not aware that our customs officials even pay any attention to these shipments.
I also lived in the Netherlands for over two years in the late 1990s. Everything that was shipped to me from outside of the Netherlands was hit with customs duties. Everything was examined and everything was taxed. Even the new issues that I got from the United States Postal Service were hit with a customs duty. But what really upset me was when the hard drive on my computer crashed. I had purchased this computer before moving to the Netherlands from a company in the United States and that hard drive was still under warranty. So I sent the faulty hard drive back to them and they sent a new one to me free of charge (or so I thought). I knew that the new hard drive had arrived when a delivery man knocked on my door and said that I owed what amounted to $200 in customs duties for this "free" replacement drive. They had examined the customs form where the shipper had to declare the value of the item enclosed. They then calculated the amount due in customs duties which I believe was at least 40% of the declared value.
Not sure how Canada handles items with customs forms attached. It may depend upon the type of item or the total value or a combination of the two.
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I agree that it should be the buyer's option to buy at a high postage cost. A stamp you list for 10c may have a flaw you may have missed, making it a $100 stamp. As a variety hunter, I'm going to want that stamp.
I've received dozens of deliveries over the last few years that have been opened for inspection by Customs. To date, nothing has been removed, and no charges have been levied, indicating that, perhaps, Australian Customs aren't aware of the UPU's stupid laws.
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The following link will allow you to calculate postage from the US to any country served by the USPS. Remember that stamps are NOT non-negotiable .. you will see the cost to Canada to legally ship a stamp is $10.50 (even when you fill in the value at 1 cent). These rates were set by the UPU, not the USPS. It's called globalization.
UPU Imposed Postage Rates
Moderator Note: Edited to fix link.
(Modified by Moderator on 2019-10-25 23:14:21)
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"...stamps are NOT non-negotiable"
Not true under the SOR system!
I have an Approval book out (not a solicitation to sell...just personalizing a general fact) that lists the stamps on a particular page at 5c each. My fellow SOR members either pay that amount to get the stamp or they don't. There is no provision for them to say "I like Page 3, Item 6 but I'll pay you 3c for it not 5c" then me replying, "no, but I'll take 4c". Same with my Auctions. Price stated - pay it or bugger off! Therefore, they are truly non-negotiable!
So now I can buy a 10c stamp from Carol (if that's what she asks, and that's what I pay, with no negotiations involved). And she can put it in an envelope with a US Global stamp on it, not charging me $10.50 and not fearing the Postal Gestapo will be knocking at her door in the middle of the night.
This is the great thing about "laws". They are open to interpretation, not absolutely carved in stone. Otherwise, why would lawyers exist? And why do laws get over-turned?
Interesting debate with many facets.
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Wow, just wow...... give up - they are not non-negotiable documents or correspondence. Keep in mind this is UPU - not the USPS. It is being phased in and in a few years all countries will be covered.
You can argue all you want but don't try it with a postal inspector or the customs people - they honestly don't have much of a sense of humor when it comes to their job. Off the job - yes. On the job - no.
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It is rare that I even discuss this topic anymore, because it is the same song and dance repeated like a broken record. And this is exactly why I stopped selling to people residing outside of the United States.
The rules/laws changed in January 2018. It has been discussed at length at that time on this Discussion Board, and it has been fully documented in Linn's Stamp News. No arguing from people outside the United States is going to change it. Remember that it was the countries outside the United States that complained to the Universal Postal Union that international postage rates for mail from the United States were too low, and YOUR countries wanted more money from the United states Postal Service. The UPU agreed, and the higher rates were put upon us.
The UPU is imposing the higher rates on other countries as well, on a staggered schedule. International parcels from Germany to the US cost at least $30.00 as is charged by sellers in Germany.
That is why President Trump notified the UPU that the United States was going to exit the UPU treaty, and enter into separate treaties with the postal entities in the world. A few other countries that got hit with the higher rates sided with the United States and also stated their intentions to withdraw from the UPU. Canada interceded, and offered to act as mediator. This was agreed upon by the president.
It was just announced a couple of months ago, and it was documented in Linn's, that an agreement was reached that was satisfactory to all parties that will permit the US, and other nations, to set international postage rates with individual countries. It will also mean that China will have to raise its international postage rates,something which the United States was subsidizing to the tune of many millions of dollars each year.
It still stands that ALL merchandise MUST be sent from the United States via a package service. That includes First Class Package International, Priority Mail International, and Priority Mail Express International. So, for Canada, you are looking at postage rates for sending merchandise to you starting at $10.50 USD up to $64.50 USD.
Just because your postal clerks don't know anything about our postal service doesn't matter. AND, it has nothing to do with "trade wars".
okstamps is correct when he states that it is he who will bear the brunt of abiding by some peoples' wishes if he sticks the stamps in an envelope and sends at the $1.15 international LETTER rate. Of course the buyer will have a hissy fit if the stamp doesn't arrive (probably confiscated by customs in his country), and file a complaint with PayPal to get his money back. Think of this also, if your country opens the envelope and finds, merchandise in it that is taxable in your country, then you have tried to circumvent paying taxes owed to your country. That makes the merchandise contraband, makes you a smuggler.
I was telling the people who were bitching me out almost daily for my shipping fees that if they didn't like them that they should complain to their government and the UPU. That is where the problem began, not in the US.
Things have been much pleasanter with my sales since I stopped international sales. Again, all of this is why I stopped selling internationally, which was roughly 1/3 of all my sales. So, those outside the US, please stop telling us in the US what is the right thing to do, when you don't have a clue what you're talking about. Plus, we don't have to justify our postage rates to you or anyone else, especially since this was all brought on by money hungry, taxation voracious countries. If you don't like the rates charged by a seller, then don't buy from that seller.
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This dilemma explains why I receive so much post from the US, at $1.15, with no supporting paperwork. (I then have to figure out where I got it from!) If there's no paperwork, customs may suppose that the items are a gift, which they will turn a blind eye to.
I still maintain that customs and border control have bigger fish to fry. Is anyone aware of a case where the sender of stamps has been charged and convicted of breaking this stupid set of rules?
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Dear people living in Canada. Your post office laws are very similar to those in the United States as regards mailing internationally.
Canada Post: Letter Post (USA and International) states what can be sent as a letter:
Acceptable Items
Items composed of paper:
Paper or other material with the general characteristics of paper (e.g., tickets, photographs, etc.).
Enclosures
Only paper enclosures which meet the requirements for Letter-post (U.S.A. and International)
So, for mailing merchandise (called "goods" by Canada Post) outside of Canada, of which collectible stamps is "goods", you must use Canada Post Parcel Services.
https://www.canadapost.ca/tools/pg/manual/PGletpost-e.asp
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David, your comments, insinuating that the laws are stupid and people don't get caught, so why follow them, are contrary to the code of ethics published by the Internet Philatelic Dealer's Association, of which, the last time I knew, you were an officer.
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"There is no such rule applicable to "goods" or "merchandise" in the UK"
That is incorrect.
From the Royal Mail Manual (all SIC):
You DON’T need to complete a Customs declaration form if you’re sending: • Letters, postcards and documents alone
You DO need to complete a Customs declaration form if you’re sending: Small packets and packages containing goods to countries not marked ‘EU’ and listed under the Europe Zone on page 31
Also from the Royal Mail, here is what can be sent via letter rates:
Letter - Greetings cards, personal letters, postcards, bills
Large letter - A4 documents, certificates, magazines, CD or DVD in cased, some large greeting cards
Everything else is considered to be a parcel.
For the customs form, "Commercial item" means any goods exported/imported in the course of a business transaction, whether or not they are sold for money or exchanged
So, I am sure that all postal services will contain similar language in all their rules relating to international mail. This is because it is required by the UPU Convention.
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"what gets me is the comment "shipping to be determined later". No one should buy an item unless they know the cost at the time of purchase."
Agreed, and Stamporama rules address that issue. If the shipping rates are not specified in the item description be it auction, approval or classified ad, then the seller is permitted to charge only the EXACT amount of postage needed to mail the order. The seller cannot add any other handling fees. The postage paid by the buyer, in this situation, must equal the amount of postage paid on the shipment (postage stamps and/or meter) and nothing more.
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Michael, get off your high horse. None of my comments in this thread can be considered contrary to IPDA ethics, and I urge you to consider not impugning my name or position.
What I've said is:
Charge me $10 if I want the stamp
The UPU rules are stupid
It's a waste of Custom's time and resources.
Does anyone disagree on these points??
Dave Sheridan
Director - Australia - IPDA
IPDA Code of Ethics
By completing the Application for Membership form and becoming a member of the Association, all members are deemed to have pledged themselves to comply with the IPDA Code of Ethics – these are as follows:
To always purchase and sell philatelic material at reasonable and fair prices, giving due consideration to prevailing market conditions and factors and any risk that may be involved in buying philatelic material
To refrain from knowingly dealing in or holding stocks of stolen philatelic material
To refrain from knowingly dealing in counterfeit philatelic material except where the member has publicly and clearly stated that the item(s) for sale are counterfeit
To provide buyers of all material with a written description which, to the best of the members knowledge, accurately and completely describes the condition, identification and specification of the items for sale
To be truthful in all dealings with sellers and buyers and in all advertising and displays of philatelic material
When requested, give customers advice on philatelic matters which to the best of the members knowledge is correct, and, to refrain from making false or misleading statements, and, to always refer the customer to another source of information when the matter is not in the members area of knowledge or expertise
To publicly guarantee a full refund of the purchase price of any philatelic material purchased whenever a customer expresses dissatisfaction with the material supplied
To conduct oneself so as not to bring discredit to the Association or to diminish the prestige of the membership of the IPDA
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US customs does have bigger fish to fry but many laws are like that. They are not 100% enforced evenly. If you get caught you can pay the consequences. Many have flaunted various laws, often with a sense of pride. They rationalize as unfair, etc. If you send something by UPS (even paper docs) you cannot bypass since you have to fill out a forms for customs before they accept it. The USPS should demand a declaration for all international shipments.
It is like the saying character is defined by what you do when no one is looking.
Now the law is related to postal rules. But in years past I know some shipped mailings to a border town and then transport across border to submit into Canada mail. Products are imported and exported all the time legally outside the postal system.
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Advocating opposition to a law perceived as unpopular/unjust is not necessarily unethical. It might be very ethical. Depends on your viewpoint.
Its how all that patriotic blood gets shed ...
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Advocating opposition to a law perceived as unpopular/unjust is not necessarily unethical. It might be very ethical. Depends on your viewpoint. Its how all that patriotic blood gets shed ... "
Agreed - that is exactly what the US did when it threatened to pull out of the UPU and got other countries to join us. And we got them (UPU) to agree to major changes to their plan which will be enacted over the next few years. Unfortunately I do not think that our rate will go down, but other rates will go up, particularly China which gets international mail rates that are incredibly low.
Opposition needs to be addressed to the only party that can change anything which is the UPU, located in Bern, Switzerland. We have to remember that we are dealing with International law here.
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I commented on this before - in fact I think I started a thread on it quite some time ago. I am slowly phasing out selling to countries outside of the US because of this. It is not worth my time and effort when I have a sale under $5.00 - for handful of stamps to go thru the effort of packaging in a large envelope with a customs form. I have been letting a few sales go thru to previous buyers in a few select countries - in small envelopes. If it is a larger order - I am breaking the shipment into two envelopes. However I still have had a few lost shipments. I think I will stop selling outside of the US in 2020. Steve
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11:34:11am
When I started this thread I had no idea how complicated the topic was. I had no idea that to buy stamps from the States the seller had to legally use packing large enough to be able to attach a customs form, the cost of which is $10. The only comment I would like to make is as follows. If a seller intends to follow this, as he/she is legally supposed to, then please announce it in your sale preamble. I quite often go to the approval books and buy a few stamps, get invoiced for a few dollars and pay up ASAP. I would probably not do that if it cost $10 more above the shipping cost. You might say "just buy more stamps". That's not always possible since the person I'm about to buy from might only have stamps from my area rarely and it's not fair to make them wait months for payment until I can find more stamps from their books or auctions. I had no idea this was such a complicated topic and I'm thinking the end result will be no one selling stamps cross-border. I really enjoy SoR and, no insult intended, I want to stay in Canada. Maybe all members in Canada will only be able to legally sell to each other. I buy many items from E-Bay from the US, I assume the laws are being ignored there as well.
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I wasn't going to but I will weigh in here. In my opinion filling out a customs form honestly (maybe some of you lie?) with the correct value is an open invitation for theft, and don't say it doesn't happen. It certainly does both for letters and parcels. Likewise registered mail and insured mail both domestic and international seem to mysteriously get lost in the mail. I sold Joe a SIZEABLE amount of stamps and sent them to Canada registered. I did NOT put the real value on the registered slip. If I did, they never would have arrived. I was worried about the shipment because I DID NOT send it regular first class to Canada. I wanted a way to track it. I stopped selling anything other than stamps overseas not due to customs stuff which ebay clearly cares nothing about, but due to too many dishonest or inferior (not that I think much of our system) postal systems. Too many times things never showed up. Nope, not me. I'm not going to fill out "please steal me" forms. That's my two cents.
Greg
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05:46:41pm
Greg adds a new side to this - and yes I did get a wonderful selection of stamps from him - Thanks Greg. For a while stuff coming to me was going missing, mostly DVDs from Amazon and once from E-Bay. I was talking to the lady at the local post office and she said there was a suspicion that someone local was helping him/herself to the occasional treat. In a one year period I lost at least 3 parcels.It's possible that the proper labeling of items might not have the effect we are looking for! Again, I am willing to pay the cost, just not for a minimal order. So please advertise what you are going to charge and if you decide you don't wish to sell outside the U.S., it's your choice. But how about a compromise? Only sell to Canada with an order of $25 or more - that might work! Then maybe we wouldn't mind the extra money. Also give us enough time to find more stuff before invoicing if you intend to go the legal route. Just a suggestion!
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""There is no such rule applicable to "goods" or "merchandise" in the UK""
Micheal thanks for saying that there is in the Royal Mail Manual.
I have never seen a copy of the Royal Mail Manual on public display in a Post Office. Therefore to me it did not exist!!
The Price Lists issued to the public NEVER mention what is allowed other than one reference to the prohibited goods list. They only give the dimensions allowable, the weights and the costs you will incur.
ALL the post office clerks know what I am shipping. I only put customs labels on parcels and like Greg I never put the "real value" on. What is the "real value"? Is it what it cost me or is it the amount the customer paid?
The philosophical part.
Lets be honest. The Postal Services are a mess. They do not train their employees properly so how can the public know what is right and what is "wrong". They all fail to deliver a percentage of letters and parcels. They know that a percentage of their employees are "undesirables". They know they can never be 100% so who cares?
Every large business has problems. Some have good management some have bad management.
As long as it is not life threatening don't get wound up about it.
Its only a stamp, a letter, a few bucks.
Listen to this:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kE186w91YVU
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Am I the last person on earth who grew up when the word "Ethics" meant something?
Think I need some time away from here.
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No Carol, there are a lot of us who try to comply with the law and the right way to live, but I guess there are probably more that think "well no one will notice" so it's ok not to be ethical.
Sad times.
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"Am I the last person on earth who grew up when the word "Ethics" meant something?
Think I need some time away from here."
So sad!!
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"... They know that a percentage of their employees are "undesirables". They know they can never be 100% so who cares? ..."
Who cares?
The US Postal Inspection Service was founded in ...
... wait for it ...
(Okay, thanks for that, WikiGod, you've made my day.)
So ... who cares?
In my experience, the USPIS polices the employees a whole lot more than it polices the customers.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
https://www.uspis.gov/about/history-of-uspis/ ... op cit
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"In my experience, the USPIS polices the employees a whole lot more than it polices the customers."
Royal Mail "sacked" 25 "employees" in one day at one sorting office for theft. By the end of the week they had sacked a further 50 "employees" at the same sorting office.
None were reported to the police.
I said "employees", they were all agency workers.
As I said bad management and who cares?
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07:23:07pm
Things are starting to get a bit nasty, I think everyone should go up a couple posts and click on the link that Ian posted. It might make us calm down a little bit! Nothing in life is so serious that we wouldn't be a little bit better off if we just laughed at ourselves a little bit!
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Exactly why I don't get involved with discussions like this one. Pointless. To each their own.
Greg
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"What is the "real value"? Is it what it cost me or is it the amount the customer paid?"
It is the purchase price paid by the customer. That's one reason why you should include a packing slip/invoice. The purchase price is the basis by which receiving customs officers assess any duties/taxes for your buyer to pay. If you don't state a value, customs may assess an arbitrary value, possibly costing your customer more than they should pay. Not telling the truth can be expensive for your customers.
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Our company ships and receives hardware from around the world. As part of the process (applies for incoming as well), the shipper has to provide a commercial invoice.
If you hand carry commercial material from one country to the next you should have a commercial invoice with you.
The value declared is the selling price since the duty would be assess on what you paid. If you are shipping "free of charge" (recipient not paying), you can put the cost to you. This is how businesses work using traditional shipping methods. The is normal business for everyone except the USPS. They really should not accept international shipments without documentation. I have shipped documents to other countries but you still declare it as "paper" (no commercial value) through anyone but USPS.
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I always include a copy of the invoice and list the value as the price the customer paid for the stamps. With the First Class International Service and customs form, I automatically get a tracking number. Once the item has been mailed, I provide the tracking number to the customer.
In my experience, I have never had an item go missing that was sent in this manner. If the item does disappear, the tracking will give some idea where the disappearance occurred.
The only items I have had "disappear" was one item close to twenty years ago that I sent to Canada and then one about two years ago that was sent to Egypt. Both were sent regular First Class Airmail as a letter. Therefore, no tracking. I say "disappear" because in such cases one does not know if the envelope did not arrive or if it did arrive but the person receiving it claimed it didn't. In both cases I had to refund the full amount paid including the shipping charge.
When I first started selling outside the United States only by First Class Package International service close to two years ago, all my sales to places outside of Australia, Canada and Western Europe stopped. I guess individuals in those countries did not wish to pay the high postage cost. I have had not problems with shipments to Australia, Canada, and Western Europe, with the tracking providing a very precise description of the location of the item every step of the way including the minute the item was delivered.
I have no issues with the present system, which includes the customs form, and intend to continue selling in the manner in which I am now. My shipping methods and costs are clearly described in my auction descriptions giving a potential customer the option to pass my offerings by because they believe the shipping cost is too high or to jump in and pick up some superb stamps.
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For what it's worth...
I confirmed Michael###'s quote from the Canada Post Guide in using letter-post for mailings to the U.S. vs the requirement for a more expensive package. To repeat...
Acceptable Items - Items composed of paper - Paper or other material with the general characteristics of paper (e.g., tickets, photographs, etc.) Unacceptable Items - blahblahblah, goods, blahblahblah
I looked at all my stamps and found, without exception, they were composed of "paper or other materials with the general characteristics of paper". (Some Tonga banana stamps looked suspect...) So, I assumed that stamps would fall under the category "etc", and were not specifically excluded (only tickets and photos were specified). Rather, that this is a general guide left to the "reasonable-man" test - that if you are sending something made of paper (e.g. a stamp, an ex-lover's tear-stained tissue, etc) it should be ok - subject to the government's right to always challenge miscreants and scofflaws ("Yer Honour, clearly tear stains, although encased in paper, do not in themselves constitute paper!")
I was unable to confirm on-line with Canada Post a definition that stamps were considered to be made of paper. Undoubtedly, a lawyer told them - quite rightly - that providing an overly comprehensive list would imply that anything not specified was therefore not acceptable. Hence, a couple examples and an "etc". Sounds reasonable to me (and I'm assuming would be to the hypothetical "reasonable man").
Canada Post offered a snail-mail address for my inquiry, but I'm hoping most of us will live long enough for a reply. So I phoned them. I talked to someone (Gareth?) on their general inquiry line, then another person (Dianne?) on their customer service line, then yet another (Rajna?) in their philatelic material department. I was given advice (such as it is described below) and generally instructed by all three to consult with the manager of my local Canada Post Office ("definitely not a private postal outlet" they all advised). That's where I met the helpful Stephanie.
Here's what I they told me (and I'm paraphrasing their responses which were pretty well unanimous):
1. I can't confirm or deny anything in writing. I have no authorization to make statements on behalf of Canada Post other than what is in our official documents (i.e. are stamps made of paper, and do they meet the test of being paper for the purposes of being included as "etc").
2. We send Canadian stamps to people worldwide who subscribe to our services. We use the same mailing service as always - nothing has changed. What international UPU rule are you referring to? We've never heard of it.
3. How long have you and your friends been exchanging stamps? (That's how I described SOR members - sorry if anyone feels they aren't my friend and therefore I used an illegal term) Are you part of a group of amateur stamp collectors or are you a registered business? Do you sometimes trade and sometimes accept money? How much sales revenue do you receive annually?
I answered 5-20 years depending on the member, just regular nerdy amateur stamp collectors, yes we trade and sell to each other, I might pay and/or receive about $100-200 annually - generally I net out $0 after my buys and sells.
I can say that everyone was pleasant, but I felt almost humiliated by my inquiry. "Are stamps not made out of paper?" one asked, "then why are you confused by our definition? It's pretty clear. We can't spell out everything for everyone!"
Another said "I don't know what new UPU rules you are talking about, but if your group has been trading and selling small amounts of stamps for a number of years you should just keep doing what you have always done until someone tells you otherwise".
BTW, the phone service instructs before connection with an agent that all calls are recorded for customer service and training purposes. So these folks know Big Brother is listening and I therefore have no reason to suspect they are part of a worldwide criminal conspiracy. So are they all just united in stupidity and the absence of ethics? Or is this actually just a UPU/USPS issue that Canadians politely ignore?
Again, no idea about the U.S. situation, and I cast no aspersions - you should do what you believe your Government orders you to do.
But I'd be interested in feedback from other Canadian members who have looked into this beyond a superficial reading and simplistic interpretation of a government-issued "rule book".
Have fun, Dave.
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03:36:20pm
Re: Stamps being made out of paper, how about the glue. The glue is made from animal bi-products, I think! Maybe that means we Canadians will have to deal only in stamps with the glue removed.
I am now very proud to be a Canadian. It sounds like Canada will now be the haven for stamp dealers and book (paper!) dealers from everywhere!
I find it really hard to believe that the US government (?) would really care about people selling a few stamps. Except for the possibility of a few people in the "stamp trade" I doubt if anyone in SoR is making much money out of this hobby! Maybe someone in authority could be convinced to change the "law" so that an upper limit on stamp income is mentioned. To pay a $10 duty charge on $0.10 worth of stamps is inane! I know you are saying "the law is the law", but with a whole bunch of work laws can be changed or amended. If Canada can allow stamps (paper) to be mailed, how about our powerful neighbor to the South?
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03:50:52pm
I know I'm out to lunch here without a leg to stand on but.... I just found a wonderful approval book on Russia and Poland with quite a few stamps I wanted. I got to a great Poland BOB stamp, tried to buy it and nothing happened. The person doesn't sell outside the US. I know it's their right, but why not give the option if I am willing to pay the shipping cost? I know I have no right to complain, but I was really p***** off!!!! How about a code on the page where the books are listed so I won't even bother to look in the future?
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When you open an approval page it goes to a page that tells you if the dealer ships to other countries, how much shipping charges are,, and any other terms and conditions be they short or lengthy. That first page answers all of the questions you should be asking before you look at the stamps.
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04:46:32pm
I discovered that afterwards, also I doubt if many people read the first page before looking at the book - from now on I will!
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All I can say is to contact the seller and ask if they are willing to make an exception and sell to you. Say that you understand the shipping charged to you will be high, but you are willing to pay it. If someone contacted me like that for the items I sell, I would consider, and I have done so, making an exception for that buyer.
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I think that Dave and Ian are basically correct in that I've never had trouble mailing an envelope of stamps to Canada.
To add my 2 cents: I've traded with Canadians (whom I've met on SoR). When I take an envelope of stamps to send to a Canadian I take the envelope to the USPO here to make sure of the weight and to ask if the US stamps on the envelope can be lightly canceled. I always get asked what is in the envelope and when I say "used postage stamps for a collector" the clerk say "OK" and the letter is sent without further question.
(Edie) Edith Robbins
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It is an interesting discussion, and I think that this is a textbook case where civil disobedience can be expected as it concerns a law that makes no sense, especially not in this modern world where free trade is (or at least used to be) the norm.
An interesting quote to ponder over: "One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws." (Martin Luther King jr. 1963)
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The debate is always about what is an "unjust" law.
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"one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws."
Ah, put who pays for the disobedience? The taxpayers.
Postal services pay each other to deliver international mail. I forget the term used for this. However, say that it costs Canadian Customs and Canada Post $5.00 to handle and deliver an envelope/parcel containing merchandise from the United States. The sender in the US pays $1.15, which is what some here are saying that they do. The US postal service keeps it's share of that postage paid to deliver the item to the border. Canada gets the rest. In this example, Canada is short-paid, but per UPU convention has to deliver the mail. The result is higher postal rates in Canada to pay for the shortage.
This works the other way too. Mail from China to the US has been grossly underpaid whereby the US has had to subsidize the cost of handling mail coming from China to the US. This costs the US a couple hundred million dollars each year.
Mail from the US to China has a higher postage rate, and China gets to keep much more of the postage paid so that it does not lose money. However, the US taxpayers pay more in higher postage rates to make up for that shortage.
This is the crux of the problem that the UPU tried to resolve by imposing higher postal rates and stricter rules for mailing merchandise against affluent nations. Obviously it backfired.
The new agreement is supposed to even this playing field, and give flexibility for each country to set its rates in a more equitable manner. How this will work out is anyone's guess.
Underpaying costs everyone more. Would you walk into a store, pick up a $4 gallon of milk, leave $1 on the counter and leave because you believe that's the $4 is too high? Someone has to pay the shortage. The store will raise its prices,and everyone pays more. Still, there's a word for not paying the price of something that you get in a store, or in a restaurant, etc.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
25 Oct 2019
12:46:38pm
It finally happened! I've bought some wonderful stuff on the SoR auctions and found a stamp I really wanted and saw a red notice at the bottom that said I cannot buy because the seller only sold to the continental US, unfortunately I'm in Canada. This is the first time this has happened on SOR and I was, and still am, a little ticked. Is it fairly common and luckily this is my first time running into it? Call me....annoyed. I know this is up to the seller, but I really wanted that stamp!
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04:01:12pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: only sells to U.S.
OK - one question - are you willing to pay the $10 USD S/H fee that it costs to LEGALLY send that stamp to you in Canada?
A stamp is classified as "goods" whether it costs a nickel, a hundred dollars, or is a gift.
"Goods" sent across borders fall under the UPU. So that one stamp will require special packaging to make it a parcel, a customs form, and if the seller is going to use stamps a trip to the post office because anything with a customs form attached where stamps are used as a form of payment MUST be handed to a window clerk.......
Why not just stick it in an envelope like many dealers do ? Because it is illegal.
Victimless crime ???? I think the college admissions fiasco in the states here is a victimless crime - it's been done for a long time in different ways but always with the same results and then professors have to deal with finding a way to graduate the little darlings - ask me how I know.....
They will never catch me - see above. If the government decides to crack down on something they are very good at it.......
Anyway - would you still purchase the stamp if you had to pay the cost to have it legally shipped into Canada....
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re: only sells to U.S.
Although my stamp auctions here on StampoRama are open to all, I do have my store on another site limited to just USA residents. There are two reasons for this.
The first was that the high postage costs to ship stamps (merchandise) outside of the United States requires that I charge a high shipping fee to cover my own costs. I used to allow everyone to purchase from my store on this other site, but was continually bombarded by questions as to my high shipping fee. Most understood my reason once I spent the time typing out a long response explaining the reason, but some still pleaded with me to BREAK THE LAW because they did not wish to pay this shipping fee. If someone was to garner the attention of any authorities that decided to crack down on shipments of merchandise leaving the United States without the proper customs form attached and with the required method of shipment (First Class International Package), it would be me, not the person to who the letter was addressed. In other words, they were asking me to take on all liability so that they could have a lower shipping cost.
A few who questioned my high shipping fee got very belligerent about it and ended up being very abusive in their email responses. I very quickly got fed up with that.
The other reason that I stopped offering international shipments on this other site is because I was set up there as a store. A buyer could not purchase some items and come back another day and purchase some more and combine shipping; as soon as a purchase was made of however many stamps, they immediately had to pay for the entire order including shipping. A potential buyer could not place items in their shopping cart and come back another day and add more items to the cart without having to worry about someone else buying some of the stamps that they had picked out. Since I was continually adding items, they often wanted to purchase new items every couple of days but just could not justify numerous lower amount purchases, with each one having a high shipping fee.
If anyone wonders why I have a six-month period over which one can purchase items I place for auction here on StampoRama before payment must be made (with only one shipping charge for all), this is the reason why. The shipping charge is still high, but if you can accumulate auction wins for extended period of time, it allows one to lower the percentage of the order that is going to pay for shipping.
International orders do take more time to package for shipment because I must generate the customs form and attach it to the photomailer in which I send international shipments. Other than that, it is really no issue.
I think most that limit international shipments do so because they assume that no one outside of the United States will be willing to pay the high shipping costs. I prefer to the let the buyer make his own decision and leave it up to each person to make up their own mind what they are willing to pay in a shipping cost. Whatever you do though, DO NOT COMPLAIN ABOUT THE SHIPPING FEES! This is not a complaint about you since you have purchased items from me, it is intended for others.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
25 Oct 2019
05:01:48pm
re: only sells to U.S.
I DO NOT WANT ANYONE TO BREAK THE LAW!!! I will pay the real cost, but it would be nice if the sellers would wait for a reasonable amount to build up rather than sending me an invoice for $0.25. I always pay when invoiced so it's up to you, but I really try to deal with people who either wait or get in touch asking me what I prefer. If I spend a small amount and then don't find anything from you for at least a month please invoice me and I will gladly pay THE FULL LEGAL AMOUNT! I don't want to seem angry, but I really am willing to pay the extra $10 to get stamps I really want. It's only money! I promise I will never and have never got upset over shipping costs, but why not let the buyer have the choice of paying or not paying instead of telling me I can't buy your items. But, on the other hand, I understand the other side since I wouldn't like being hassled by cheapskates not willing to pay!
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re: only sells to U.S.
Although Carol is vehement in her opinion I am not entirely convinced she has it right.
I have been looking through some of the USPS rules on-line and don’t see what she is trying to paraphrase. There certainly seems to be more restrictions (hence paperwork and higher costs) for “items of a commercial nature” but I haven’t seen the general word “goods” applied yet, nor a definition that might include sending a low-value stamp to someone in Canada who has given you nominal consideration in the form of a trader stamp or cash money.
And when I asked at our post office about this and it being a UPU rule that must apply to us they looked at me blankly and said “never heard of it, it’s probably part of the US trade wars”.
Does anyone have a specific reference they can point to on this issue rather than general opinion? And has anyone asked for clarification specific to our Activities? Finally, if this is the case, does this not spell the end of US-based eBay, Amazon, etc dealing with Canadians?
Seems like an important issue we should all be concerned with getting right.
Looking forward to more Objective info (and no inflammatory self-righteous commentary) since we are all friends here, right?
Dave
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05:32:20pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: only sells to U.S.
I think Michael numbers has it at his fingertips - if not let someone else tilt at windmills here. I'm sick to death of defending what has appeared countless times on all of the stamp websites including this one.
I never did homework for my kids - not going to start doing it for others now.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
25 Oct 2019
06:27:33pm
re: only sells to U.S.
I trust all sellers on SoR to do what is right, I have bought from many of you and am extremely happy with the service. I always pay what is asked and will always do so, since I do not sell I trust the sellers to do what they consider to be right and legal. You really are a great group of people who have provided me with hundreds of great items. I think that rather than not sell internationally it would be easier to tell the international buyers the true cost and if we prefer not to pay it well we can pass on your item. Then the choice is ours. I also buy a lot of things on other sites and the one thing that turns me away from a sale is not high shipping (unless it is outrageous), what gets me is the comment "shipping to be determined later". No one should buy an item unless they know the cost at the time of purchase. Just my humble opinion.
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06:41:38pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: only sells to U.S.
Lemaven says:-
"And when I asked at our post office about this and it being a UPU rule that must apply to us they looked at me blankly and said “never heard of it, it’s probably part of the US trade wars""
The UK is a member of the UPU.
There is no such rule applicable to "goods" or "merchandise" in the UK. We are only asked the type of goods within to determine whether they are on the restricted goods list like chemicals or lithium batteries etc etc etc.
It would appear therefore that this expensive shipping cost has been instigated by the United States postal authorities.
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re: only sells to U.S.
OK, I did a little homework, as I was curious about this.
Here is the official wording, as this was snipped from the United States Postal Service website...
Here is the definition of "non-negotiable"...
If you sell or exchange stamps worldwide, you need a Customs Form to be legal.
Linus
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
25 Oct 2019
07:03:02pm
re: only sells to U.S.
Does anyone on SoR work for customs? If an item comes to me with a customs form I would notice and I don't remember seeing any, I could be wrong since I buy many items on E-Bay and they usually go through customs and sometimes get held up for two weeks or so. I remember a small piece of Sandwich Glass that was held up in customs in Montreal for over two weeks while they tried to figure out what it was! I very rarely have had stamps go through customs. There is one major E-Bay seller I have bought large stamp lots from several times and never has customs been involved. I don't think people are intentionally breaking the law, I think that (like me) they had no idea. Please charge me the legal rate and I will pay - I don't want you to not sell to me because I am foreign - I want your stamps!
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re: only sells to U.S.
Joe,
You purchased a Batum stamp from me a couple of months ago. It was shipped with customs forms (3 copies) attached to the photo-mailer envelope in a see-through glue-backed packet.
Remember?
Richard Pauls (okstamps)
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
25 Oct 2019
07:31:02pm
re: only sells to U.S.
Yes, Richard, I do remember - I thought about that just after I posted the last comment. It was not the typical stamp buy since it was a great treasure and required as much care as possible. I also bought some wonderful pieces from Greg that required more care than normal. I've bought some amazing pieces from SoR and they hold special places in my collections. I've looked at the Batum stamp many times and enjoy it over and over again. What I'm not sure about is whether I have ever paid for the custom's forms for a 25 cent stamp. By the way I have recently bought 3 really nice Canadian pieces from you and am perfectly willing to pay for the customs form to get the pieces. If I weren't willing to pay the fees I shouldn't buy the stamps. Again, great thanks to all of you for the great stamps, whether they be part of a penny auction or stamps that have large costs attached!
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re: only sells to U.S.
Different countries handle the importation of merchandise in many various ways. As a resident of the United States, I have purchased large volumes of philatelic material from various auction houses and stamp dealers in Europe and especially from one auction house in England. I have received many large heavy boxes from this auction house over the years. I have never had to pay a single penny in customs duties and am not aware that our customs officials even pay any attention to these shipments.
I also lived in the Netherlands for over two years in the late 1990s. Everything that was shipped to me from outside of the Netherlands was hit with customs duties. Everything was examined and everything was taxed. Even the new issues that I got from the United States Postal Service were hit with a customs duty. But what really upset me was when the hard drive on my computer crashed. I had purchased this computer before moving to the Netherlands from a company in the United States and that hard drive was still under warranty. So I sent the faulty hard drive back to them and they sent a new one to me free of charge (or so I thought). I knew that the new hard drive had arrived when a delivery man knocked on my door and said that I owed what amounted to $200 in customs duties for this "free" replacement drive. They had examined the customs form where the shipper had to declare the value of the item enclosed. They then calculated the amount due in customs duties which I believe was at least 40% of the declared value.
Not sure how Canada handles items with customs forms attached. It may depend upon the type of item or the total value or a combination of the two.
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re: only sells to U.S.
I agree that it should be the buyer's option to buy at a high postage cost. A stamp you list for 10c may have a flaw you may have missed, making it a $100 stamp. As a variety hunter, I'm going to want that stamp.
I've received dozens of deliveries over the last few years that have been opened for inspection by Customs. To date, nothing has been removed, and no charges have been levied, indicating that, perhaps, Australian Customs aren't aware of the UPU's stupid laws.
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08:29:04pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: only sells to U.S.
The following link will allow you to calculate postage from the US to any country served by the USPS. Remember that stamps are NOT non-negotiable .. you will see the cost to Canada to legally ship a stamp is $10.50 (even when you fill in the value at 1 cent). These rates were set by the UPU, not the USPS. It's called globalization.
UPU Imposed Postage Rates
Moderator Note: Edited to fix link.
(Modified by Moderator on 2019-10-25 23:14:21)
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re: only sells to U.S.
"...stamps are NOT non-negotiable"
Not true under the SOR system!
I have an Approval book out (not a solicitation to sell...just personalizing a general fact) that lists the stamps on a particular page at 5c each. My fellow SOR members either pay that amount to get the stamp or they don't. There is no provision for them to say "I like Page 3, Item 6 but I'll pay you 3c for it not 5c" then me replying, "no, but I'll take 4c". Same with my Auctions. Price stated - pay it or bugger off! Therefore, they are truly non-negotiable!
So now I can buy a 10c stamp from Carol (if that's what she asks, and that's what I pay, with no negotiations involved). And she can put it in an envelope with a US Global stamp on it, not charging me $10.50 and not fearing the Postal Gestapo will be knocking at her door in the middle of the night.
This is the great thing about "laws". They are open to interpretation, not absolutely carved in stone. Otherwise, why would lawyers exist? And why do laws get over-turned?
Interesting debate with many facets.
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10:13:24pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: only sells to U.S.
Wow, just wow...... give up - they are not non-negotiable documents or correspondence. Keep in mind this is UPU - not the USPS. It is being phased in and in a few years all countries will be covered.
You can argue all you want but don't try it with a postal inspector or the customs people - they honestly don't have much of a sense of humor when it comes to their job. Off the job - yes. On the job - no.
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11:45:50pm
re: only sells to U.S.
It is rare that I even discuss this topic anymore, because it is the same song and dance repeated like a broken record. And this is exactly why I stopped selling to people residing outside of the United States.
The rules/laws changed in January 2018. It has been discussed at length at that time on this Discussion Board, and it has been fully documented in Linn's Stamp News. No arguing from people outside the United States is going to change it. Remember that it was the countries outside the United States that complained to the Universal Postal Union that international postage rates for mail from the United States were too low, and YOUR countries wanted more money from the United states Postal Service. The UPU agreed, and the higher rates were put upon us.
The UPU is imposing the higher rates on other countries as well, on a staggered schedule. International parcels from Germany to the US cost at least $30.00 as is charged by sellers in Germany.
That is why President Trump notified the UPU that the United States was going to exit the UPU treaty, and enter into separate treaties with the postal entities in the world. A few other countries that got hit with the higher rates sided with the United States and also stated their intentions to withdraw from the UPU. Canada interceded, and offered to act as mediator. This was agreed upon by the president.
It was just announced a couple of months ago, and it was documented in Linn's, that an agreement was reached that was satisfactory to all parties that will permit the US, and other nations, to set international postage rates with individual countries. It will also mean that China will have to raise its international postage rates,something which the United States was subsidizing to the tune of many millions of dollars each year.
It still stands that ALL merchandise MUST be sent from the United States via a package service. That includes First Class Package International, Priority Mail International, and Priority Mail Express International. So, for Canada, you are looking at postage rates for sending merchandise to you starting at $10.50 USD up to $64.50 USD.
Just because your postal clerks don't know anything about our postal service doesn't matter. AND, it has nothing to do with "trade wars".
okstamps is correct when he states that it is he who will bear the brunt of abiding by some peoples' wishes if he sticks the stamps in an envelope and sends at the $1.15 international LETTER rate. Of course the buyer will have a hissy fit if the stamp doesn't arrive (probably confiscated by customs in his country), and file a complaint with PayPal to get his money back. Think of this also, if your country opens the envelope and finds, merchandise in it that is taxable in your country, then you have tried to circumvent paying taxes owed to your country. That makes the merchandise contraband, makes you a smuggler.
I was telling the people who were bitching me out almost daily for my shipping fees that if they didn't like them that they should complain to their government and the UPU. That is where the problem began, not in the US.
Things have been much pleasanter with my sales since I stopped international sales. Again, all of this is why I stopped selling internationally, which was roughly 1/3 of all my sales. So, those outside the US, please stop telling us in the US what is the right thing to do, when you don't have a clue what you're talking about. Plus, we don't have to justify our postage rates to you or anyone else, especially since this was all brought on by money hungry, taxation voracious countries. If you don't like the rates charged by a seller, then don't buy from that seller.
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re: only sells to U.S.
This dilemma explains why I receive so much post from the US, at $1.15, with no supporting paperwork. (I then have to figure out where I got it from!) If there's no paperwork, customs may suppose that the items are a gift, which they will turn a blind eye to.
I still maintain that customs and border control have bigger fish to fry. Is anyone aware of a case where the sender of stamps has been charged and convicted of breaking this stupid set of rules?
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12:26:45am
re: only sells to U.S.
Dear people living in Canada. Your post office laws are very similar to those in the United States as regards mailing internationally.
Canada Post: Letter Post (USA and International) states what can be sent as a letter:
Acceptable Items
Items composed of paper:
Paper or other material with the general characteristics of paper (e.g., tickets, photographs, etc.).
Enclosures
Only paper enclosures which meet the requirements for Letter-post (U.S.A. and International)
So, for mailing merchandise (called "goods" by Canada Post) outside of Canada, of which collectible stamps is "goods", you must use Canada Post Parcel Services.
https://www.canadapost.ca/tools/pg/manual/PGletpost-e.asp
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12:28:48am
re: only sells to U.S.
David, your comments, insinuating that the laws are stupid and people don't get caught, so why follow them, are contrary to the code of ethics published by the Internet Philatelic Dealer's Association, of which, the last time I knew, you were an officer.
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01:21:55am
re: only sells to U.S.
"There is no such rule applicable to "goods" or "merchandise" in the UK"
That is incorrect.
From the Royal Mail Manual (all SIC):
You DON’T need to complete a Customs declaration form if you’re sending: • Letters, postcards and documents alone
You DO need to complete a Customs declaration form if you’re sending: Small packets and packages containing goods to countries not marked ‘EU’ and listed under the Europe Zone on page 31
Also from the Royal Mail, here is what can be sent via letter rates:
Letter - Greetings cards, personal letters, postcards, bills
Large letter - A4 documents, certificates, magazines, CD or DVD in cased, some large greeting cards
Everything else is considered to be a parcel.
For the customs form, "Commercial item" means any goods exported/imported in the course of a business transaction, whether or not they are sold for money or exchanged
So, I am sure that all postal services will contain similar language in all their rules relating to international mail. This is because it is required by the UPU Convention.
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01:53:46am
re: only sells to U.S.
"what gets me is the comment "shipping to be determined later". No one should buy an item unless they know the cost at the time of purchase."
Agreed, and Stamporama rules address that issue. If the shipping rates are not specified in the item description be it auction, approval or classified ad, then the seller is permitted to charge only the EXACT amount of postage needed to mail the order. The seller cannot add any other handling fees. The postage paid by the buyer, in this situation, must equal the amount of postage paid on the shipment (postage stamps and/or meter) and nothing more.
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re: only sells to U.S.
Michael, get off your high horse. None of my comments in this thread can be considered contrary to IPDA ethics, and I urge you to consider not impugning my name or position.
What I've said is:
Charge me $10 if I want the stamp
The UPU rules are stupid
It's a waste of Custom's time and resources.
Does anyone disagree on these points??
Dave Sheridan
Director - Australia - IPDA
IPDA Code of Ethics
By completing the Application for Membership form and becoming a member of the Association, all members are deemed to have pledged themselves to comply with the IPDA Code of Ethics – these are as follows:
To always purchase and sell philatelic material at reasonable and fair prices, giving due consideration to prevailing market conditions and factors and any risk that may be involved in buying philatelic material
To refrain from knowingly dealing in or holding stocks of stolen philatelic material
To refrain from knowingly dealing in counterfeit philatelic material except where the member has publicly and clearly stated that the item(s) for sale are counterfeit
To provide buyers of all material with a written description which, to the best of the members knowledge, accurately and completely describes the condition, identification and specification of the items for sale
To be truthful in all dealings with sellers and buyers and in all advertising and displays of philatelic material
When requested, give customers advice on philatelic matters which to the best of the members knowledge is correct, and, to refrain from making false or misleading statements, and, to always refer the customer to another source of information when the matter is not in the members area of knowledge or expertise
To publicly guarantee a full refund of the purchase price of any philatelic material purchased whenever a customer expresses dissatisfaction with the material supplied
To conduct oneself so as not to bring discredit to the Association or to diminish the prestige of the membership of the IPDA
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re: only sells to U.S.
US customs does have bigger fish to fry but many laws are like that. They are not 100% enforced evenly. If you get caught you can pay the consequences. Many have flaunted various laws, often with a sense of pride. They rationalize as unfair, etc. If you send something by UPS (even paper docs) you cannot bypass since you have to fill out a forms for customs before they accept it. The USPS should demand a declaration for all international shipments.
It is like the saying character is defined by what you do when no one is looking.
Now the law is related to postal rules. But in years past I know some shipped mailings to a border town and then transport across border to submit into Canada mail. Products are imported and exported all the time legally outside the postal system.
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07:38:18am
re: only sells to U.S.
Advocating opposition to a law perceived as unpopular/unjust is not necessarily unethical. It might be very ethical. Depends on your viewpoint. Its how all that patriotic blood gets shed ...
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08:36:37am
Auctions - Approvals
re: only sells to U.S.
Advocating opposition to a law perceived as unpopular/unjust is not necessarily unethical. It might be very ethical. Depends on your viewpoint. Its how all that patriotic blood gets shed ... "
Agreed - that is exactly what the US did when it threatened to pull out of the UPU and got other countries to join us. And we got them (UPU) to agree to major changes to their plan which will be enacted over the next few years. Unfortunately I do not think that our rate will go down, but other rates will go up, particularly China which gets international mail rates that are incredibly low.
Opposition needs to be addressed to the only party that can change anything which is the UPU, located in Bern, Switzerland. We have to remember that we are dealing with International law here.
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Approvals
re: only sells to U.S.
I commented on this before - in fact I think I started a thread on it quite some time ago. I am slowly phasing out selling to countries outside of the US because of this. It is not worth my time and effort when I have a sale under $5.00 - for handful of stamps to go thru the effort of packaging in a large envelope with a customs form. I have been letting a few sales go thru to previous buyers in a few select countries - in small envelopes. If it is a larger order - I am breaking the shipment into two envelopes. However I still have had a few lost shipments. I think I will stop selling outside of the US in 2020. Steve
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
26 Oct 2019
11:34:11am
re: only sells to U.S.
When I started this thread I had no idea how complicated the topic was. I had no idea that to buy stamps from the States the seller had to legally use packing large enough to be able to attach a customs form, the cost of which is $10. The only comment I would like to make is as follows. If a seller intends to follow this, as he/she is legally supposed to, then please announce it in your sale preamble. I quite often go to the approval books and buy a few stamps, get invoiced for a few dollars and pay up ASAP. I would probably not do that if it cost $10 more above the shipping cost. You might say "just buy more stamps". That's not always possible since the person I'm about to buy from might only have stamps from my area rarely and it's not fair to make them wait months for payment until I can find more stamps from their books or auctions. I had no idea this was such a complicated topic and I'm thinking the end result will be no one selling stamps cross-border. I really enjoy SoR and, no insult intended, I want to stay in Canada. Maybe all members in Canada will only be able to legally sell to each other. I buy many items from E-Bay from the US, I assume the laws are being ignored there as well.
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Auctions - Approvals
re: only sells to U.S.
I wasn't going to but I will weigh in here. In my opinion filling out a customs form honestly (maybe some of you lie?) with the correct value is an open invitation for theft, and don't say it doesn't happen. It certainly does both for letters and parcels. Likewise registered mail and insured mail both domestic and international seem to mysteriously get lost in the mail. I sold Joe a SIZEABLE amount of stamps and sent them to Canada registered. I did NOT put the real value on the registered slip. If I did, they never would have arrived. I was worried about the shipment because I DID NOT send it regular first class to Canada. I wanted a way to track it. I stopped selling anything other than stamps overseas not due to customs stuff which ebay clearly cares nothing about, but due to too many dishonest or inferior (not that I think much of our system) postal systems. Too many times things never showed up. Nope, not me. I'm not going to fill out "please steal me" forms. That's my two cents.
Greg
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
26 Oct 2019
05:46:41pm
re: only sells to U.S.
Greg adds a new side to this - and yes I did get a wonderful selection of stamps from him - Thanks Greg. For a while stuff coming to me was going missing, mostly DVDs from Amazon and once from E-Bay. I was talking to the lady at the local post office and she said there was a suspicion that someone local was helping him/herself to the occasional treat. In a one year period I lost at least 3 parcels.It's possible that the proper labeling of items might not have the effect we are looking for! Again, I am willing to pay the cost, just not for a minimal order. So please advertise what you are going to charge and if you decide you don't wish to sell outside the U.S., it's your choice. But how about a compromise? Only sell to Canada with an order of $25 or more - that might work! Then maybe we wouldn't mind the extra money. Also give us enough time to find more stuff before invoicing if you intend to go the legal route. Just a suggestion!
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03:20:42pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: only sells to U.S.
""There is no such rule applicable to "goods" or "merchandise" in the UK""
Micheal thanks for saying that there is in the Royal Mail Manual.
I have never seen a copy of the Royal Mail Manual on public display in a Post Office. Therefore to me it did not exist!!
The Price Lists issued to the public NEVER mention what is allowed other than one reference to the prohibited goods list. They only give the dimensions allowable, the weights and the costs you will incur.
ALL the post office clerks know what I am shipping. I only put customs labels on parcels and like Greg I never put the "real value" on. What is the "real value"? Is it what it cost me or is it the amount the customer paid?
The philosophical part.
Lets be honest. The Postal Services are a mess. They do not train their employees properly so how can the public know what is right and what is "wrong". They all fail to deliver a percentage of letters and parcels. They know that a percentage of their employees are "undesirables". They know they can never be 100% so who cares?
Every large business has problems. Some have good management some have bad management.
As long as it is not life threatening don't get wound up about it.
Its only a stamp, a letter, a few bucks.
Listen to this:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kE186w91YVU
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04:02:30pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: only sells to U.S.
Am I the last person on earth who grew up when the word "Ethics" meant something?
Think I need some time away from here.
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Approvals
re: only sells to U.S.
No Carol, there are a lot of us who try to comply with the law and the right way to live, but I guess there are probably more that think "well no one will notice" so it's ok not to be ethical.
Sad times.
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06:35:58pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: only sells to U.S.
"Am I the last person on earth who grew up when the word "Ethics" meant something?
Think I need some time away from here."
So sad!!
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re: only sells to U.S.
"... They know that a percentage of their employees are "undesirables". They know they can never be 100% so who cares? ..."
Who cares?
The US Postal Inspection Service was founded in ...
... wait for it ...
(Okay, thanks for that, WikiGod, you've made my day.)
So ... who cares?
In my experience, the USPIS polices the employees a whole lot more than it polices the customers.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
https://www.uspis.gov/about/history-of-uspis/ ... op cit
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07:22:59pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: only sells to U.S.
"In my experience, the USPIS polices the employees a whole lot more than it polices the customers."
Royal Mail "sacked" 25 "employees" in one day at one sorting office for theft. By the end of the week they had sacked a further 50 "employees" at the same sorting office.
None were reported to the police.
I said "employees", they were all agency workers.
As I said bad management and who cares?
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
27 Oct 2019
07:23:07pm
re: only sells to U.S.
Things are starting to get a bit nasty, I think everyone should go up a couple posts and click on the link that Ian posted. It might make us calm down a little bit! Nothing in life is so serious that we wouldn't be a little bit better off if we just laughed at ourselves a little bit!
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Auctions - Approvals
re: only sells to U.S.
Exactly why I don't get involved with discussions like this one. Pointless. To each their own.
Greg
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12:16:55am
re: only sells to U.S.
"What is the "real value"? Is it what it cost me or is it the amount the customer paid?"
It is the purchase price paid by the customer. That's one reason why you should include a packing slip/invoice. The purchase price is the basis by which receiving customs officers assess any duties/taxes for your buyer to pay. If you don't state a value, customs may assess an arbitrary value, possibly costing your customer more than they should pay. Not telling the truth can be expensive for your customers.
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re: only sells to U.S.
Our company ships and receives hardware from around the world. As part of the process (applies for incoming as well), the shipper has to provide a commercial invoice.
If you hand carry commercial material from one country to the next you should have a commercial invoice with you.
The value declared is the selling price since the duty would be assess on what you paid. If you are shipping "free of charge" (recipient not paying), you can put the cost to you. This is how businesses work using traditional shipping methods. The is normal business for everyone except the USPS. They really should not accept international shipments without documentation. I have shipped documents to other countries but you still declare it as "paper" (no commercial value) through anyone but USPS.
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re: only sells to U.S.
I always include a copy of the invoice and list the value as the price the customer paid for the stamps. With the First Class International Service and customs form, I automatically get a tracking number. Once the item has been mailed, I provide the tracking number to the customer.
In my experience, I have never had an item go missing that was sent in this manner. If the item does disappear, the tracking will give some idea where the disappearance occurred.
The only items I have had "disappear" was one item close to twenty years ago that I sent to Canada and then one about two years ago that was sent to Egypt. Both were sent regular First Class Airmail as a letter. Therefore, no tracking. I say "disappear" because in such cases one does not know if the envelope did not arrive or if it did arrive but the person receiving it claimed it didn't. In both cases I had to refund the full amount paid including the shipping charge.
When I first started selling outside the United States only by First Class Package International service close to two years ago, all my sales to places outside of Australia, Canada and Western Europe stopped. I guess individuals in those countries did not wish to pay the high postage cost. I have had not problems with shipments to Australia, Canada, and Western Europe, with the tracking providing a very precise description of the location of the item every step of the way including the minute the item was delivered.
I have no issues with the present system, which includes the customs form, and intend to continue selling in the manner in which I am now. My shipping methods and costs are clearly described in my auction descriptions giving a potential customer the option to pass my offerings by because they believe the shipping cost is too high or to jump in and pick up some superb stamps.
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re: only sells to U.S.
For what it's worth...
I confirmed Michael###'s quote from the Canada Post Guide in using letter-post for mailings to the U.S. vs the requirement for a more expensive package. To repeat...
Acceptable Items - Items composed of paper - Paper or other material with the general characteristics of paper (e.g., tickets, photographs, etc.) Unacceptable Items - blahblahblah, goods, blahblahblah
I looked at all my stamps and found, without exception, they were composed of "paper or other materials with the general characteristics of paper". (Some Tonga banana stamps looked suspect...) So, I assumed that stamps would fall under the category "etc", and were not specifically excluded (only tickets and photos were specified). Rather, that this is a general guide left to the "reasonable-man" test - that if you are sending something made of paper (e.g. a stamp, an ex-lover's tear-stained tissue, etc) it should be ok - subject to the government's right to always challenge miscreants and scofflaws ("Yer Honour, clearly tear stains, although encased in paper, do not in themselves constitute paper!")
I was unable to confirm on-line with Canada Post a definition that stamps were considered to be made of paper. Undoubtedly, a lawyer told them - quite rightly - that providing an overly comprehensive list would imply that anything not specified was therefore not acceptable. Hence, a couple examples and an "etc". Sounds reasonable to me (and I'm assuming would be to the hypothetical "reasonable man").
Canada Post offered a snail-mail address for my inquiry, but I'm hoping most of us will live long enough for a reply. So I phoned them. I talked to someone (Gareth?) on their general inquiry line, then another person (Dianne?) on their customer service line, then yet another (Rajna?) in their philatelic material department. I was given advice (such as it is described below) and generally instructed by all three to consult with the manager of my local Canada Post Office ("definitely not a private postal outlet" they all advised). That's where I met the helpful Stephanie.
Here's what I they told me (and I'm paraphrasing their responses which were pretty well unanimous):
1. I can't confirm or deny anything in writing. I have no authorization to make statements on behalf of Canada Post other than what is in our official documents (i.e. are stamps made of paper, and do they meet the test of being paper for the purposes of being included as "etc").
2. We send Canadian stamps to people worldwide who subscribe to our services. We use the same mailing service as always - nothing has changed. What international UPU rule are you referring to? We've never heard of it.
3. How long have you and your friends been exchanging stamps? (That's how I described SOR members - sorry if anyone feels they aren't my friend and therefore I used an illegal term) Are you part of a group of amateur stamp collectors or are you a registered business? Do you sometimes trade and sometimes accept money? How much sales revenue do you receive annually?
I answered 5-20 years depending on the member, just regular nerdy amateur stamp collectors, yes we trade and sell to each other, I might pay and/or receive about $100-200 annually - generally I net out $0 after my buys and sells.
I can say that everyone was pleasant, but I felt almost humiliated by my inquiry. "Are stamps not made out of paper?" one asked, "then why are you confused by our definition? It's pretty clear. We can't spell out everything for everyone!"
Another said "I don't know what new UPU rules you are talking about, but if your group has been trading and selling small amounts of stamps for a number of years you should just keep doing what you have always done until someone tells you otherwise".
BTW, the phone service instructs before connection with an agent that all calls are recorded for customer service and training purposes. So these folks know Big Brother is listening and I therefore have no reason to suspect they are part of a worldwide criminal conspiracy. So are they all just united in stupidity and the absence of ethics? Or is this actually just a UPU/USPS issue that Canadians politely ignore?
Again, no idea about the U.S. situation, and I cast no aspersions - you should do what you believe your Government orders you to do.
But I'd be interested in feedback from other Canadian members who have looked into this beyond a superficial reading and simplistic interpretation of a government-issued "rule book".
Have fun, Dave.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
28 Oct 2019
03:36:20pm
re: only sells to U.S.
Re: Stamps being made out of paper, how about the glue. The glue is made from animal bi-products, I think! Maybe that means we Canadians will have to deal only in stamps with the glue removed.
I am now very proud to be a Canadian. It sounds like Canada will now be the haven for stamp dealers and book (paper!) dealers from everywhere!
I find it really hard to believe that the US government (?) would really care about people selling a few stamps. Except for the possibility of a few people in the "stamp trade" I doubt if anyone in SoR is making much money out of this hobby! Maybe someone in authority could be convinced to change the "law" so that an upper limit on stamp income is mentioned. To pay a $10 duty charge on $0.10 worth of stamps is inane! I know you are saying "the law is the law", but with a whole bunch of work laws can be changed or amended. If Canada can allow stamps (paper) to be mailed, how about our powerful neighbor to the South?
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
06 Nov 2019
03:50:52pm
re: only sells to U.S.
I know I'm out to lunch here without a leg to stand on but.... I just found a wonderful approval book on Russia and Poland with quite a few stamps I wanted. I got to a great Poland BOB stamp, tried to buy it and nothing happened. The person doesn't sell outside the US. I know it's their right, but why not give the option if I am willing to pay the shipping cost? I know I have no right to complain, but I was really p***** off!!!! How about a code on the page where the books are listed so I won't even bother to look in the future?
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04:29:09pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: only sells to U.S.
When you open an approval page it goes to a page that tells you if the dealer ships to other countries, how much shipping charges are,, and any other terms and conditions be they short or lengthy. That first page answers all of the questions you should be asking before you look at the stamps.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
06 Nov 2019
04:46:32pm
re: only sells to U.S.
I discovered that afterwards, also I doubt if many people read the first page before looking at the book - from now on I will!
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05:32:53pm
re: only sells to U.S.
All I can say is to contact the seller and ask if they are willing to make an exception and sell to you. Say that you understand the shipping charged to you will be high, but you are willing to pay it. If someone contacted me like that for the items I sell, I would consider, and I have done so, making an exception for that buyer.
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09:36:49pm
re: only sells to U.S.
I think that Dave and Ian are basically correct in that I've never had trouble mailing an envelope of stamps to Canada.
To add my 2 cents: I've traded with Canadians (whom I've met on SoR). When I take an envelope of stamps to send to a Canadian I take the envelope to the USPO here to make sure of the weight and to ask if the US stamps on the envelope can be lightly canceled. I always get asked what is in the envelope and when I say "used postage stamps for a collector" the clerk say "OK" and the letter is sent without further question.
(Edie) Edith Robbins
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re: only sells to U.S.
It is an interesting discussion, and I think that this is a textbook case where civil disobedience can be expected as it concerns a law that makes no sense, especially not in this modern world where free trade is (or at least used to be) the norm.
An interesting quote to ponder over: "One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws." (Martin Luther King jr. 1963)
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re: only sells to U.S.
The debate is always about what is an "unjust" law.
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11:59:21am
re: only sells to U.S.
"one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws."
Ah, put who pays for the disobedience? The taxpayers.
Postal services pay each other to deliver international mail. I forget the term used for this. However, say that it costs Canadian Customs and Canada Post $5.00 to handle and deliver an envelope/parcel containing merchandise from the United States. The sender in the US pays $1.15, which is what some here are saying that they do. The US postal service keeps it's share of that postage paid to deliver the item to the border. Canada gets the rest. In this example, Canada is short-paid, but per UPU convention has to deliver the mail. The result is higher postal rates in Canada to pay for the shortage.
This works the other way too. Mail from China to the US has been grossly underpaid whereby the US has had to subsidize the cost of handling mail coming from China to the US. This costs the US a couple hundred million dollars each year.
Mail from the US to China has a higher postage rate, and China gets to keep much more of the postage paid so that it does not lose money. However, the US taxpayers pay more in higher postage rates to make up for that shortage.
This is the crux of the problem that the UPU tried to resolve by imposing higher postal rates and stricter rules for mailing merchandise against affluent nations. Obviously it backfired.
The new agreement is supposed to even this playing field, and give flexibility for each country to set its rates in a more equitable manner. How this will work out is anyone's guess.
Underpaying costs everyone more. Would you walk into a store, pick up a $4 gallon of milk, leave $1 on the counter and leave because you believe that's the $4 is too high? Someone has to pay the shortage. The store will raise its prices,and everyone pays more. Still, there's a word for not paying the price of something that you get in a store, or in a restaurant, etc.
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