Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
06:43:54pm
I'm looking at two examples right now.
Using Scott 2009, Michel 2009 and SG 2007 catalogues for DDR (East Germany):
A Souvenir Sheet issued December 28th, 1962 - the block of 8 is listed at 40 Euro (which is $54 USD on today's exchange). SG lists it at 35 GBP ($55 USD). Scott lists the same block at $30 USD.
A Souvenir Sheet issued March 12th, 1963 is listed at 5 Euro ($6.50 USD). SG lists it at 4.50 GBP ($7 USD). Scott doesn't actually "list" it with a number but places it in a highlighted box that it was issued and values it at $3.75.
So a good question might be: If a "specialised" (for lack of a better word) collector uses Michel or SG because for the most part Scott doesn't list many issues of countries, if you are trading or selling, where do you find the middle ground for cv? Since there are significant values differences listed between the three catalogues. I've found SG and Michel are quite often within the same price range (as noted above) and Scott is significantly lower.
In order to purchase many of my DDR, I have to purchase from Europe and it's based on Michel. If I have duplicates to trade.....
This is just a theoretical question but I'm sure it's come up for many of us over the years as we end up having to use a number of catalogues to compensate for what is missing in Scott.
What are your thoughts?
Kelly
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I think you pretty much said it. If you are going to buy in the European market, then you will be buying under Michel or Gibbons. In the USA market, you'll be using Scott. Remember too that there are more stamps in the USA than in the other countries, and that drives prices up outside the USA. When prices start going up in the USA, it is often because of demand in another country where the supply in the USA is being bought up and shipped to the other country. The PR China Year of the Monkey issue is a good example.
There are issues that Scott, Gibbons and Michel don't list, and you can often find the stamp in one of the other catalogs. Obviously, that'll be the reference used. For specialized items and stamps not listed by Scott, I have never had any problem using Gibbons or Michel catalog values to sell the item.
I know that there are dealers that look at the values for a stamp in various catalogs to find the one with the highest price. I don't believe that Michel values reflect the market in the USA, and Scott doesn't reflect the market values for the same stamp in Europe.
Where the market value for stamps in the USA is generally lower than elsewhere, that is a good reason why many stamps get purchased by people outside the USA. When I get a larger than normal number of purchases from outside the USA, I can go and look, but I don't have to anymore. It usually means that the dollar has fallen against those currencies. However, the January 27 increase in postage fees for international mail is going to slow that down too.
About 35% of all my sales are to collectors and dealers outside the USA. I don't sell that much on SOR, so I'm not counting sales here, for which I have a targeted audience for what I sell here.
I guess I digressed a little bit, but I think it still shows the converse of what you were saying by my description of people outside the USA buying stamps here under the catalog that is dominant here.
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Hi Kelly,
This is an interesting question. There are a number of reasons for differences in catalog prices, but I don't claim to know all the reasons.
First, there is a home bias. Chinese stamps are valued most highly in China. Y&T will have the best values for France and Colonies etc.
Second, there are odd particularities in stamp collecting internationally which are reflected in the local catalogs. Chinese value CTO higher than postally used, Americans are obsessed with centering, and if you cannot read the town and date on a cancelled stamp it is worthless to German collectors.
Third, there are differences in what is the basis of pricing. I am not very familiar with SG, but Scott and Michel both claim to primarily use retail prices. Well, if that means an internet dealer in the U.S., where brick and mortar stores have all but disappeared, while German retail continues to include overhead for rent and insurance on a real store, you have a difference. Of course, Europe has a 20% value added tax, I believe, which on top of everything else certainly also is included in 'retail.'
Accordingly, when trading internationally one really should try using one uniform set of catalogs.
As for buying GDR based on Michel -- if I may offer advice -- do not buy individual issues if you can avoid it. Buy the complete year sets. The reason is that dealers will charge much less for the year set than for individual issues that will have to be pulled. The German word for year set is Jahrgang. You will find many competing offers for any GDR, Berlin, or Federal Republic year sets on ebay.de. The prices are severly depressed and paying 15% Michel catalog for year sets is about right.
Arno
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As far as I know, a number of things to consider here:
First of all, I have always been told that the Scott catalogue reflects to a large degree a certain feeling in the USA towards stamps: If it is not American, it is not worth anything. Ofcourse it is not as black and white as this, but nevertheless, I think there still is a lot of truth in it.
Secondly, all catalogues take into account the demand for certain countries. Call it fashion amongst collectors if you want. In the past few years all of a sudden Russia / Soviet Union became more wanted and more recently China. This shows in catalogue values. Perhaps not immediately, but in the end it does.
Finally, over here Michel c.v. are often used as reference. Selling prices are most of the time something between 30 and 50% of c.v. I do not know what the custom is in the US.
Oh, and if you need DDR stamps, there is ample supply of them. A quick search learned me that you can buy a very advanced collection, housed in five hingeless albums for 550 euros. Almost complete, for instance all early souvenir sheets (Mi Bl.7-24, including the sheetlet from 1962) are in it, except for Mi. Bl.14. and their c.v. alone is over 700 euros. Also included the complete years 1949-1954, which have a few high values.
Another collection I saw was 1959-1990 complete MNH for 200 euros.
Just to show that there is quite a difference between catalogue value and market value.
Jan-Simon
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08:03:06am
An early lesson I learned the first time I sought stamps in Europe occurred in Rotterdam. I had several weeks time there to seek out small stamp stores and began to purchase Netherlands and Netherlands Colonials thinking that Holland was a good place to buy Dutch stamps. However, in a conversation with either a friendly local collector or a helpful dealer, I discovered that Dutch stamps are simply in greater demand in the Netherlands.
DUH !!!
It is true that varieties were more readily available there or in Amsterdam, but the greater supply didn't force prices down except for the most common examples.
My next several trips allowed me to check and evaluate this amazing idea in London, Bremen, Hanover, Cadiz and I think Southampton where I found that I could fill in blank spaces for the local issues very easily, but the asked price was significantly more than the Scott, or the Minkus catalogs that I was using then listed the stamps for.
This seems so obvious to me today,
What causes the difference is not so much an intense chauvinism, but simply the factors of supply and demand at work.
In fact I found that the best place to buy US Stamps, even the earliest issues was overseas. The problem was that local foreign dealers simply didn't have very large stocks of US stamps.
One might think that with a small supply the asked prices would be higher, however that smaller supply was accompanied by an even smaller demand for US issues.
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I use the stamp catalogues for stamp identification and to confirm we (buyer and seller) are talking about the same stamp.
Thereafter, I shop by price, endeavouring to get full value for my dollar. If it's a stamp not often on the market and I want it, I pay.
John Derry
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Charlie,
Your story reminds me of the book that Herman Herst wrote, telling about his European travels and how reasonable it was to buy US stamps abroad, rather than here in the states. He was certainly quite the entrepenueral stamp dealer, with many interesting stories to tell about a period in time just before WWII, when there were thousands of stamp dealers around.
Mike
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11:59:26am
Yes, and I have read and probably still possess most of his books.
His last years were spent in or near Boca Raton. I have somewhere a pamphlet sized article about his mother and her adventures.
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29 Jan 2013
06:43:54pm
For any of us who work with various catalogues, we all know there is often differences in catalogue values listed between them. I'm amazed at how significant some of the differences are though. This comes into play when trying to trade or sell. For example, the majority of users here on SOR no doubt depend on Scott. But we also work from SG and Michel and from time to time you might see reference to Yverts.
I'm looking at two examples right now.
Using Scott 2009, Michel 2009 and SG 2007 catalogues for DDR (East Germany):
A Souvenir Sheet issued December 28th, 1962 - the block of 8 is listed at 40 Euro (which is $54 USD on today's exchange). SG lists it at 35 GBP ($55 USD). Scott lists the same block at $30 USD.
A Souvenir Sheet issued March 12th, 1963 is listed at 5 Euro ($6.50 USD). SG lists it at 4.50 GBP ($7 USD). Scott doesn't actually "list" it with a number but places it in a highlighted box that it was issued and values it at $3.75.
So a good question might be: If a "specialised" (for lack of a better word) collector uses Michel or SG because for the most part Scott doesn't list many issues of countries, if you are trading or selling, where do you find the middle ground for cv? Since there are significant values differences listed between the three catalogues. I've found SG and Michel are quite often within the same price range (as noted above) and Scott is significantly lower.
In order to purchase many of my DDR, I have to purchase from Europe and it's based on Michel. If I have duplicates to trade.....
This is just a theoretical question but I'm sure it's come up for many of us over the years as we end up having to use a number of catalogues to compensate for what is missing in Scott.
What are your thoughts?
Kelly
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07:42:34pm
re: Catalogue Comparisons for cvs
I think you pretty much said it. If you are going to buy in the European market, then you will be buying under Michel or Gibbons. In the USA market, you'll be using Scott. Remember too that there are more stamps in the USA than in the other countries, and that drives prices up outside the USA. When prices start going up in the USA, it is often because of demand in another country where the supply in the USA is being bought up and shipped to the other country. The PR China Year of the Monkey issue is a good example.
There are issues that Scott, Gibbons and Michel don't list, and you can often find the stamp in one of the other catalogs. Obviously, that'll be the reference used. For specialized items and stamps not listed by Scott, I have never had any problem using Gibbons or Michel catalog values to sell the item.
I know that there are dealers that look at the values for a stamp in various catalogs to find the one with the highest price. I don't believe that Michel values reflect the market in the USA, and Scott doesn't reflect the market values for the same stamp in Europe.
Where the market value for stamps in the USA is generally lower than elsewhere, that is a good reason why many stamps get purchased by people outside the USA. When I get a larger than normal number of purchases from outside the USA, I can go and look, but I don't have to anymore. It usually means that the dollar has fallen against those currencies. However, the January 27 increase in postage fees for international mail is going to slow that down too.
About 35% of all my sales are to collectors and dealers outside the USA. I don't sell that much on SOR, so I'm not counting sales here, for which I have a targeted audience for what I sell here.
I guess I digressed a little bit, but I think it still shows the converse of what you were saying by my description of people outside the USA buying stamps here under the catalog that is dominant here.
Login to Like
this post
re: Catalogue Comparisons for cvs
Hi Kelly,
This is an interesting question. There are a number of reasons for differences in catalog prices, but I don't claim to know all the reasons.
First, there is a home bias. Chinese stamps are valued most highly in China. Y&T will have the best values for France and Colonies etc.
Second, there are odd particularities in stamp collecting internationally which are reflected in the local catalogs. Chinese value CTO higher than postally used, Americans are obsessed with centering, and if you cannot read the town and date on a cancelled stamp it is worthless to German collectors.
Third, there are differences in what is the basis of pricing. I am not very familiar with SG, but Scott and Michel both claim to primarily use retail prices. Well, if that means an internet dealer in the U.S., where brick and mortar stores have all but disappeared, while German retail continues to include overhead for rent and insurance on a real store, you have a difference. Of course, Europe has a 20% value added tax, I believe, which on top of everything else certainly also is included in 'retail.'
Accordingly, when trading internationally one really should try using one uniform set of catalogs.
As for buying GDR based on Michel -- if I may offer advice -- do not buy individual issues if you can avoid it. Buy the complete year sets. The reason is that dealers will charge much less for the year set than for individual issues that will have to be pulled. The German word for year set is Jahrgang. You will find many competing offers for any GDR, Berlin, or Federal Republic year sets on ebay.de. The prices are severly depressed and paying 15% Michel catalog for year sets is about right.
Arno
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Approvals
re: Catalogue Comparisons for cvs
As far as I know, a number of things to consider here:
First of all, I have always been told that the Scott catalogue reflects to a large degree a certain feeling in the USA towards stamps: If it is not American, it is not worth anything. Ofcourse it is not as black and white as this, but nevertheless, I think there still is a lot of truth in it.
Secondly, all catalogues take into account the demand for certain countries. Call it fashion amongst collectors if you want. In the past few years all of a sudden Russia / Soviet Union became more wanted and more recently China. This shows in catalogue values. Perhaps not immediately, but in the end it does.
Finally, over here Michel c.v. are often used as reference. Selling prices are most of the time something between 30 and 50% of c.v. I do not know what the custom is in the US.
Oh, and if you need DDR stamps, there is ample supply of them. A quick search learned me that you can buy a very advanced collection, housed in five hingeless albums for 550 euros. Almost complete, for instance all early souvenir sheets (Mi Bl.7-24, including the sheetlet from 1962) are in it, except for Mi. Bl.14. and their c.v. alone is over 700 euros. Also included the complete years 1949-1954, which have a few high values.
Another collection I saw was 1959-1990 complete MNH for 200 euros.
Just to show that there is quite a difference between catalogue value and market value.
Jan-Simon
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this post
Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
30 Jan 2013
08:03:06am
re: Catalogue Comparisons for cvs
An early lesson I learned the first time I sought stamps in Europe occurred in Rotterdam. I had several weeks time there to seek out small stamp stores and began to purchase Netherlands and Netherlands Colonials thinking that Holland was a good place to buy Dutch stamps. However, in a conversation with either a friendly local collector or a helpful dealer, I discovered that Dutch stamps are simply in greater demand in the Netherlands.
DUH !!!
It is true that varieties were more readily available there or in Amsterdam, but the greater supply didn't force prices down except for the most common examples.
My next several trips allowed me to check and evaluate this amazing idea in London, Bremen, Hanover, Cadiz and I think Southampton where I found that I could fill in blank spaces for the local issues very easily, but the asked price was significantly more than the Scott, or the Minkus catalogs that I was using then listed the stamps for.
This seems so obvious to me today,
What causes the difference is not so much an intense chauvinism, but simply the factors of supply and demand at work.
In fact I found that the best place to buy US Stamps, even the earliest issues was overseas. The problem was that local foreign dealers simply didn't have very large stocks of US stamps.
One might think that with a small supply the asked prices would be higher, however that smaller supply was accompanied by an even smaller demand for US issues.
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The past is a foreign country, they do things different there.
30 Jan 2013
03:25:11pm
re: Catalogue Comparisons for cvs
I use the stamp catalogues for stamp identification and to confirm we (buyer and seller) are talking about the same stamp.
Thereafter, I shop by price, endeavouring to get full value for my dollar. If it's a stamp not often on the market and I want it, I pay.
John Derry
Login to Like
this post
re: Catalogue Comparisons for cvs
Charlie,
Your story reminds me of the book that Herman Herst wrote, telling about his European travels and how reasonable it was to buy US stamps abroad, rather than here in the states. He was certainly quite the entrepenueral stamp dealer, with many interesting stories to tell about a period in time just before WWII, when there were thousands of stamp dealers around.
Mike
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
31 Jan 2013
11:59:26am
re: Catalogue Comparisons for cvs
Yes, and I have read and probably still possess most of his books.
His last years were spent in or near Boca Raton. I have somewhere a pamphlet sized article about his mother and her adventures.
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