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Europe/Other : Yugoslavia: Listing of Kosovo in Scott catalog

 

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Milco
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05 Oct 2012
10:05:56am
Probably all of us know Scott catalog!? Yeah, and - not because I come (originally) from Yugoslavia, but because some fact I can not ignore, regarding policy of listing and selection of listing!

Here we can to the point which can not made me understand part of Philately, even that I know well, that all stamp catalogue in this world, are just one (simple language) "Private Dealer Catalog price list" and like that (private), they can list what they want!

Here we come to one more precise sample:

Scott list Serbian Autonomy of Kosovo, like separate country. It was correct (according my opinion), till the time when postage in use in the Kosovo are under UN responsibility.

But Scott company, continue/d with listing to the future, even that Autonomy Kosovo are NOT independent state! Kosovo is also NOT member of UPU! Like I say in this article, it is O.K, it is private company like others too, and they can how they like it!

But, if You continue to list some postage stamp, that are not legal according international low, why You don't do it also with postage stamp issued and used in Postal Circulation on Republika Srpska Krajina (Republic of Serbian Krajina - Serbian part of today Croatia?

It made me very disturbing and confused, and I ask if USA gov't, politics or some kind of loby in USA are "pressing and impressing" "higher interest" of USA?

best regards
Milco
http://picasaweb.google.com/balkanstamp

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Jansimon
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collector, seller, MT member

05 Oct 2012
10:41:35am

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re: Yugoslavia: Listing of Kosovo in Scott catalog

Milco,
the policy behind the listings in the Scott catalogue, in other words the editorial choices made by the Amos publishing company, are a mystery to all of us. There is only one answer to your question: there is no logic.
One could give countless examples of the strange choices made by the editors.

But there is one thing I need to stress here (and I do this in my capacity as discussion board moderator): it is not appreciated when political statements are made on this discussion board. And let me emphasize that it does not matter whether the statements are pro or anti USA, or any other country. This board is about stamps.

Jan-Simon

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michael78651
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05 Oct 2012
06:59:42pm
re: Yugoslavia: Listing of Kosovo in Scott catalog

I do not see any political discussion here. The question is whether or not there could be any political pressure on Scott to list or not list certain stamps from certain countries.

The answer to that question is yes. There have been times when political issues did cause Scott to not list stamps from some countries. For example, stamps from Cuba starting in 1963, North Viet Nam, North Korea, and Iran are good examples of where stamps were not listed due to the United States imposing a trade embargo against those countries.

I find this interesting that during the Viet Nam War, Scott refused to list several semi-postal stamps from German Democratic Republic, as the surtax value was sent to North Viet Nam to support the war effort. When the war was over, Scott listed the stamps. You can find them in German Democratic Republic listed between Scott #B134 and B173.

Several years ago, Scott changed their policy whereby they have listed the stamps from embargoed countries, but do not place any catalog value on the stamps, and include a warning note that importation of the stamps could be illegal. As embargo restrictions get relaxed, as in Cuba, Scott adds values.

Now regarding Kosovo, Scott tries to put all the stamps from a country together when possible. (They do not always do this, which is part of the inconsistency of Scott.) This is done as a convenience for catalog users to limit the need to jump from catalog to catalog. When the Kosovo issues first came out under the United Nations, they were listed only under the UN. When Kosovo got on its feet as a country, Scott moved the listings under the main country. The same is true for East Timor. The UN Administration stamps for both of those countries also remain under the UN listings.

Just as politics often play a role in the issuance of stamps, it can also play a role in how and when stamps are listed in the catalogs.

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DRYER
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The past is a foreign country, they do things different there.

06 Oct 2012
01:07:30pm
re: Yugoslavia: Listing of Kosovo in Scott catalog

Jan-Simon: it is not possible to remove "politics" from any discussion - even a discussion of one's sexual proclivities - and I agree with Michael that Milco is not making a "political statement". I do not envy you your burden as Discussion Board Moderator.

Michael: thank you for your informative, educational and appetizing slice of philatelic pie.

John Derry

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Joeg
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08 Oct 2012
09:13:15am
re: Yugoslavia: Listing of Kosovo in Scott catalog

By coincidence I had some intersection with this issue quite recently in my professional life. I work IT for a travel company, and we were tasked with giving Kosovo a separate status as a country in our reservations systems. This was hampered by the fact that the OAG (the company that manages the assignment of industry coding and standard abbreviations) has yet to officially designate the codes for Kosovo.

In dealing with my colleagues from that part of the world, I gained a true appreciation for the difficulties in establishing a "country" as a recognized entity in the world community. Nobody wants to make these changes in any kind of organized fashion - some change quickly, others more slowly, and some won't change at all unless someone else changes first. And you have the struggles with the politicos on the pro and con side, each with valid arguments for their position.

But we were talking about stamps... :-)

For the collecting world, deciding if a postal authority is legitimate or not is probably the most divisive argument we can have, more than the designation of perf variations, or whether or not a catalogue value should go up or down, or what exactly is the proper shade of "ochre". It's bad enough that we struggle with the line between postally used and CTO. Deciding if a stamp is real at all, or just political or financial opportunism, is enough to scare a collector into keeping their hands and wallets out of the discussion, at least until the dust settles. Especially in these socially-dynamic and changing times, one collector's postage stamp is another collector's Cinderella, and when you bring in the passions of political and ethnic identity, you can have quite a conversational minefield in no time flat.

With regards to the original question, I don't think Scott or Amos Publishing intends any kind of political statement by their placement of Kosovo in the catalogue. Since they publish only once per year, they must necessarily be conservative in their decision-making, and I'm not surprised that world events often outpace their editorial policy. Recognize that their decisions are most likely based on business sense and a desire to satisfy the majority of their customer base, and not out of any political agenda.

For myself, I wish you and your country luck in your journey. I would love to collect your country's stamps someday, and I happen to have a hole on my shelf that would fit a "K" album quite nicely!

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DRYER
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The past is a foreign country, they do things different there.

08 Oct 2012
01:21:23pm
re: Yugoslavia: Listing of Kosovo in Scott catalog

Joseph Goodwin:

Thank you for your insight into travel reservation codes. In my disordered mind the abbreviation ADHD is meaningless and perhaps you could expand on it.

With the possible exception of an election campaign poster, I am unable to imagine a "political statement" more powerful than a postage stamp. Jan-Simon is sitting on the proverbial powderkeg.

So, who is the ultimate authority that decides if a stamp is acceptable as postage?

Consider the little recognized Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus: I have received mail (in Canada) from the TRNC. I have used TRNC stamps from mail delivered to some other countries; but, not from the Republic of Cyprus or Greece which, I understand, do not deliver mail bearing TNRC postage. Moreover, I have been told that most, if not all, international mail from the TRNC is routed through Turkey.

Are my TRNC postage stamps illegitimate? Not for me.

There does not appear to be an international authority to dictate that the mail must go through irrespective of international borders. And, international borders in themselves make very inflammatory political statements. (Canada, for example, lays claim to much of what lies within the Arctic Circle, but doesn't deliver much mail up there and is vastly outmuscled by the "mail-delivery systems" of the USA and Russia.)

This discussion centres on but one of the countless attractive and irresistible facets of that gem - stamp collecting.

John Derry

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michael78651
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Moderator, MT Member

08 Oct 2012
04:08:49pm
re: Yugoslavia: Listing of Kosovo in Scott catalog

Countries have issued stamps that are very political in nature, and some have caused or fueled wars, or delivered a political message to the populace.

- Argentina Scott #1338 and #1411 - issued in 1983 depicted and declared the Falklands are being part of Argentina

- Italy has issued stamps reminding people to pay their income taxes - see Scott #651 (issued 1954), and #691 (issued 1955) for examples

- Sorry I don't remember exactly which stamps these are, but South American countries have redrawn international borders on their stamps, with the other country being offended and starting a war between the two.

- North Korea issued a stamp commemorating the seizure of the USS Pueblo

- North Viet Nam during the war, issued many sets of stamps depicted downed US fighter planes and captured US soldiers

Countries well know that the little pieces of paper that we collect can be used very effectively as little pieces of propaganda.


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Joeg
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08 Oct 2012
05:30:43pm
re: Yugoslavia: Listing of Kosovo in Scott catalog

ADHD - Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. One of the primary symptoms is a short attention span and inability to concentrate on one topic at length. Describes my collecting quite accurately!

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

09 Oct 2012
04:39:34am
re: Yugoslavia: Listing of Kosovo in Scott catalog

John, the H (hyperactivity) differentiates this from ADD, which is closer to what Joel describes. without the H, the person loses interest, and consequently focus, easily. The person wanders, internally and externally. Add the H, and the person is hyperactive and not only has trouble focusing, but remaining within his own skin. ADD is typically a problem only for the individual; ADHD typically involves all around.

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DaSaintFan
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09 Oct 2012
06:48:31pm
re: Yugoslavia: Listing of Kosovo in Scott catalog

- Sorry I don't remember exactly which stamps these are, but Sotuh American countries have redrawn international borders on their stamps, with the other country being offended and starting a war between the two.

========

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8040/7984138949_f25e073a6b.jpg

The one your referrring to is Nicaragua and Honduras,The one your referrring to is Nicaragua and Honduras

http://bigthink.com/strange-maps/381-the-stamp-that-almost-caused-a-war

I just remember reading about this not too long ago (because I was going through SOME of my Nicaraguan stamps). Basically, the artist made a mistake on the Nicaraguan border, and the border was drawn with some disputed territory marked off. The inkers didn't pay any particular notice and just inked it within the drawn boundaries.

The Honduras govt raised holy h-e-hockey sticks about the stamp (and yes, they even threatened an international fight over it), and Nicaragua actually issued an apology over what was a "legitimate" mistake.

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michael78651
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Moderator, MT Member

10 Oct 2012
12:13:42am
re: Yugoslavia: Listing of Kosovo in Scott catalog

I found the listing for the North Korean USS Pueblo stamp. It was issued in 2008 and is Scott #4759.

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michael78651
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Moderator, MT Member

10 Oct 2012
12:31:51am
re: Yugoslavia: Listing of Kosovo in Scott catalog

I also found the South American Issue that started a war. The notes are from the Mystic Stamp Company web site:

"In the Central American countries of Bolivia and Paraguay, stamps actually provoked a war! The conflict began when Bolivia issued a stamp claiming an undefined and long-disputed area of wilderness. This stamp was simply a map with this territory’s possession clearly labeled. Enraged by this bold claim, Paraguay countered by issuing a larger stamp, which even more clearly showed the territory and labeled-in Paraguay’s name. Also on the stamp were the words, "Has been, is, and will be." Soon afterwards a vicious war over the territory began. The war raged for many years with Paraguay eventually proving to be the victor. Several stamps were then issued proudly proclaiming the territory as Paraguay’s."


The instigating Bolivian stamps were issued in 1935, and are Scott #219-232, and C42-51.
The initial Paraguayan stamps were issued in 1932 and 1935 and are Scott #323-324.

The Buenos Aires Peace Conference finalized the borders between the two countries. Issued in 1939, Paraguay Scott #355-361, and C113-121. Bolivia did not issue any stamps to commemorate the end of the war.


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cdj1122
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..

23 Dec 2012
05:20:22pm
re: Yugoslavia: Listing of Kosovo in Scott catalog

Haven't there also been some hard feelings between India and Pakistan over exactly where the borders of Kashmir are, or were, or perhaps ought to be ?
I think that that was also dramatized by maps on some stamps of either country.

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michael78651
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Moderator, MT Member

23 Dec 2012
09:03:18pm
re: Yugoslavia: Listing of Kosovo in Scott catalog

Charlie, I do believe that border dispute is still in the present tense.

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Author/Postings
Members Picture
Milco

05 Oct 2012
10:05:56am

Probably all of us know Scott catalog!? Yeah, and - not because I come (originally) from Yugoslavia, but because some fact I can not ignore, regarding policy of listing and selection of listing!

Here we can to the point which can not made me understand part of Philately, even that I know well, that all stamp catalogue in this world, are just one (simple language) "Private Dealer Catalog price list" and like that (private), they can list what they want!

Here we come to one more precise sample:

Scott list Serbian Autonomy of Kosovo, like separate country. It was correct (according my opinion), till the time when postage in use in the Kosovo are under UN responsibility.

But Scott company, continue/d with listing to the future, even that Autonomy Kosovo are NOT independent state! Kosovo is also NOT member of UPU! Like I say in this article, it is O.K, it is private company like others too, and they can how they like it!

But, if You continue to list some postage stamp, that are not legal according international low, why You don't do it also with postage stamp issued and used in Postal Circulation on Republika Srpska Krajina (Republic of Serbian Krajina - Serbian part of today Croatia?

It made me very disturbing and confused, and I ask if USA gov't, politics or some kind of loby in USA are "pressing and impressing" "higher interest" of USA?

best regards
Milco
http://picasaweb.google.com/balkanstamp

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Jansimon

collector, seller, MT member
05 Oct 2012
10:41:35am

Approvals

re: Yugoslavia: Listing of Kosovo in Scott catalog

Milco,
the policy behind the listings in the Scott catalogue, in other words the editorial choices made by the Amos publishing company, are a mystery to all of us. There is only one answer to your question: there is no logic.
One could give countless examples of the strange choices made by the editors.

But there is one thing I need to stress here (and I do this in my capacity as discussion board moderator): it is not appreciated when political statements are made on this discussion board. And let me emphasize that it does not matter whether the statements are pro or anti USA, or any other country. This board is about stamps.

Jan-Simon

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michael78651

Moderator, MT Member
05 Oct 2012
06:59:42pm

re: Yugoslavia: Listing of Kosovo in Scott catalog

I do not see any political discussion here. The question is whether or not there could be any political pressure on Scott to list or not list certain stamps from certain countries.

The answer to that question is yes. There have been times when political issues did cause Scott to not list stamps from some countries. For example, stamps from Cuba starting in 1963, North Viet Nam, North Korea, and Iran are good examples of where stamps were not listed due to the United States imposing a trade embargo against those countries.

I find this interesting that during the Viet Nam War, Scott refused to list several semi-postal stamps from German Democratic Republic, as the surtax value was sent to North Viet Nam to support the war effort. When the war was over, Scott listed the stamps. You can find them in German Democratic Republic listed between Scott #B134 and B173.

Several years ago, Scott changed their policy whereby they have listed the stamps from embargoed countries, but do not place any catalog value on the stamps, and include a warning note that importation of the stamps could be illegal. As embargo restrictions get relaxed, as in Cuba, Scott adds values.

Now regarding Kosovo, Scott tries to put all the stamps from a country together when possible. (They do not always do this, which is part of the inconsistency of Scott.) This is done as a convenience for catalog users to limit the need to jump from catalog to catalog. When the Kosovo issues first came out under the United Nations, they were listed only under the UN. When Kosovo got on its feet as a country, Scott moved the listings under the main country. The same is true for East Timor. The UN Administration stamps for both of those countries also remain under the UN listings.

Just as politics often play a role in the issuance of stamps, it can also play a role in how and when stamps are listed in the catalogs.

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"Author: Seasons of Fantasies and Dreams, The Whitechapel Fog"

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The past is a foreign country, they do things different there.
06 Oct 2012
01:07:30pm

re: Yugoslavia: Listing of Kosovo in Scott catalog

Jan-Simon: it is not possible to remove "politics" from any discussion - even a discussion of one's sexual proclivities - and I agree with Michael that Milco is not making a "political statement". I do not envy you your burden as Discussion Board Moderator.

Michael: thank you for your informative, educational and appetizing slice of philatelic pie.

John Derry

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Joeg

08 Oct 2012
09:13:15am

re: Yugoslavia: Listing of Kosovo in Scott catalog

By coincidence I had some intersection with this issue quite recently in my professional life. I work IT for a travel company, and we were tasked with giving Kosovo a separate status as a country in our reservations systems. This was hampered by the fact that the OAG (the company that manages the assignment of industry coding and standard abbreviations) has yet to officially designate the codes for Kosovo.

In dealing with my colleagues from that part of the world, I gained a true appreciation for the difficulties in establishing a "country" as a recognized entity in the world community. Nobody wants to make these changes in any kind of organized fashion - some change quickly, others more slowly, and some won't change at all unless someone else changes first. And you have the struggles with the politicos on the pro and con side, each with valid arguments for their position.

But we were talking about stamps... :-)

For the collecting world, deciding if a postal authority is legitimate or not is probably the most divisive argument we can have, more than the designation of perf variations, or whether or not a catalogue value should go up or down, or what exactly is the proper shade of "ochre". It's bad enough that we struggle with the line between postally used and CTO. Deciding if a stamp is real at all, or just political or financial opportunism, is enough to scare a collector into keeping their hands and wallets out of the discussion, at least until the dust settles. Especially in these socially-dynamic and changing times, one collector's postage stamp is another collector's Cinderella, and when you bring in the passions of political and ethnic identity, you can have quite a conversational minefield in no time flat.

With regards to the original question, I don't think Scott or Amos Publishing intends any kind of political statement by their placement of Kosovo in the catalogue. Since they publish only once per year, they must necessarily be conservative in their decision-making, and I'm not surprised that world events often outpace their editorial policy. Recognize that their decisions are most likely based on business sense and a desire to satisfy the majority of their customer base, and not out of any political agenda.

For myself, I wish you and your country luck in your journey. I would love to collect your country's stamps someday, and I happen to have a hole on my shelf that would fit a "K" album quite nicely!

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The past is a foreign country, they do things different there.
08 Oct 2012
01:21:23pm

re: Yugoslavia: Listing of Kosovo in Scott catalog

Joseph Goodwin:

Thank you for your insight into travel reservation codes. In my disordered mind the abbreviation ADHD is meaningless and perhaps you could expand on it.

With the possible exception of an election campaign poster, I am unable to imagine a "political statement" more powerful than a postage stamp. Jan-Simon is sitting on the proverbial powderkeg.

So, who is the ultimate authority that decides if a stamp is acceptable as postage?

Consider the little recognized Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus: I have received mail (in Canada) from the TRNC. I have used TRNC stamps from mail delivered to some other countries; but, not from the Republic of Cyprus or Greece which, I understand, do not deliver mail bearing TNRC postage. Moreover, I have been told that most, if not all, international mail from the TRNC is routed through Turkey.

Are my TRNC postage stamps illegitimate? Not for me.

There does not appear to be an international authority to dictate that the mail must go through irrespective of international borders. And, international borders in themselves make very inflammatory political statements. (Canada, for example, lays claim to much of what lies within the Arctic Circle, but doesn't deliver much mail up there and is vastly outmuscled by the "mail-delivery systems" of the USA and Russia.)

This discussion centres on but one of the countless attractive and irresistible facets of that gem - stamp collecting.

John Derry

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michael78651

Moderator, MT Member
08 Oct 2012
04:08:49pm

re: Yugoslavia: Listing of Kosovo in Scott catalog

Countries have issued stamps that are very political in nature, and some have caused or fueled wars, or delivered a political message to the populace.

- Argentina Scott #1338 and #1411 - issued in 1983 depicted and declared the Falklands are being part of Argentina

- Italy has issued stamps reminding people to pay their income taxes - see Scott #651 (issued 1954), and #691 (issued 1955) for examples

- Sorry I don't remember exactly which stamps these are, but South American countries have redrawn international borders on their stamps, with the other country being offended and starting a war between the two.

- North Korea issued a stamp commemorating the seizure of the USS Pueblo

- North Viet Nam during the war, issued many sets of stamps depicted downed US fighter planes and captured US soldiers

Countries well know that the little pieces of paper that we collect can be used very effectively as little pieces of propaganda.


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Joeg

08 Oct 2012
05:30:43pm

re: Yugoslavia: Listing of Kosovo in Scott catalog

ADHD - Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. One of the primary symptoms is a short attention span and inability to concentrate on one topic at length. Describes my collecting quite accurately!

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
09 Oct 2012
04:39:34am

re: Yugoslavia: Listing of Kosovo in Scott catalog

John, the H (hyperactivity) differentiates this from ADD, which is closer to what Joel describes. without the H, the person loses interest, and consequently focus, easily. The person wanders, internally and externally. Add the H, and the person is hyperactive and not only has trouble focusing, but remaining within his own skin. ADD is typically a problem only for the individual; ADHD typically involves all around.

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DaSaintFan

09 Oct 2012
06:48:31pm

re: Yugoslavia: Listing of Kosovo in Scott catalog

- Sorry I don't remember exactly which stamps these are, but Sotuh American countries have redrawn international borders on their stamps, with the other country being offended and starting a war between the two.

========

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8040/7984138949_f25e073a6b.jpg

The one your referrring to is Nicaragua and Honduras,The one your referrring to is Nicaragua and Honduras

http://bigthink.com/strange-maps/381-the-stamp-that-almost-caused-a-war

I just remember reading about this not too long ago (because I was going through SOME of my Nicaraguan stamps). Basically, the artist made a mistake on the Nicaraguan border, and the border was drawn with some disputed territory marked off. The inkers didn't pay any particular notice and just inked it within the drawn boundaries.

The Honduras govt raised holy h-e-hockey sticks about the stamp (and yes, they even threatened an international fight over it), and Nicaragua actually issued an apology over what was a "legitimate" mistake.

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michael78651

Moderator, MT Member
10 Oct 2012
12:13:42am

re: Yugoslavia: Listing of Kosovo in Scott catalog

I found the listing for the North Korean USS Pueblo stamp. It was issued in 2008 and is Scott #4759.

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michael78651

Moderator, MT Member
10 Oct 2012
12:31:51am

re: Yugoslavia: Listing of Kosovo in Scott catalog

I also found the South American Issue that started a war. The notes are from the Mystic Stamp Company web site:

"In the Central American countries of Bolivia and Paraguay, stamps actually provoked a war! The conflict began when Bolivia issued a stamp claiming an undefined and long-disputed area of wilderness. This stamp was simply a map with this territory’s possession clearly labeled. Enraged by this bold claim, Paraguay countered by issuing a larger stamp, which even more clearly showed the territory and labeled-in Paraguay’s name. Also on the stamp were the words, "Has been, is, and will be." Soon afterwards a vicious war over the territory began. The war raged for many years with Paraguay eventually proving to be the victor. Several stamps were then issued proudly proclaiming the territory as Paraguay’s."


The instigating Bolivian stamps were issued in 1935, and are Scott #219-232, and C42-51.
The initial Paraguayan stamps were issued in 1932 and 1935 and are Scott #323-324.

The Buenos Aires Peace Conference finalized the borders between the two countries. Issued in 1939, Paraguay Scott #355-361, and C113-121. Bolivia did not issue any stamps to commemorate the end of the war.


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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
23 Dec 2012
05:20:22pm

re: Yugoslavia: Listing of Kosovo in Scott catalog

Haven't there also been some hard feelings between India and Pakistan over exactly where the borders of Kashmir are, or were, or perhaps ought to be ?
I think that that was also dramatized by maps on some stamps of either country.

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".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
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michael78651

Moderator, MT Member
23 Dec 2012
09:03:18pm

re: Yugoslavia: Listing of Kosovo in Scott catalog

Charlie, I do believe that border dispute is still in the present tense.

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