Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
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Never. LOL. I have a Stanley Gibbons stamp color key. The scan is closest to purple-brown. I have the stamp in an album, I'll check it later but the scan looks pretty good.
The album copy matches the SG purple-brown.
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03:21:36pm
Newfoundland #51 and 52 I assume!! Good luck with that!! I supposedly have both but they both look the same to me! Yours look different to me but which is which? Your guess is as good, or maybe better, than mine!
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Reverse scan?
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I'm not an expert, but on my monitor the stamp on the right looks like a definite #52, while the one on the left might be also (after all, they've had over a century to lose "post office fresh" colour). I have never seen a colour guide that identified umber brown, but I am confident it is significantly different from the violet brown of a #52. My perception, for what it might be worth.
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1899.....uh no.
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Reverse might help your question!
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06:43:55pm
"Reverse might help your question!"
How is that going to help with the colour of the stamp? I'm not trying to be offensive 1899 but all we are concerned about here is the colour of the stamp, there are only brown (51a), umber brown (51) and violet brown (52) to worry about - no other differences! Unless we had it on cover or with a readable postmark, 51 was released in 1887 and 52 in 1896, a re-release with usually a brighter colour.
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@Harvey
Offset color if there is some!
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I'd expect umber brown to have a darker, burnt, appearance. The stamp on the right looks purple brown to me, but the cancel on the other stamp makes it almost impossible to determine the shade. The dark cancel plays havoc with the eye's perception
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01:44:00am
Newfoundland 51a brown / 51 umber brown
(images thanks to City Stamp Montreal)
Umber brown is a specific shade of brown that sets it apart from the broader, more general category of "brown." Umber brown typically has a darker, richer tone with subtle undertones that give it a distinct character. It often leans toward a warm, earthy hue, sometimes with hints of red, yellow, or even a slight grayish quality, depending on whether it's raw umber (more yellowish) or burnt umber (deeper and reddish). Think of it as a refined, nuanced version of brown—like the color of fertile soil or aged wood.
In contrast, "brown" is a wide-ranging term that covers any number of shades, from light tan to deep chocolate, without specific undertones or defining features. It’s the catch-all category, while umber brown is a more deliberate, sophisticated member of that family.
On its own, "umber" refers to a natural earth pigment or the color derived from it. The term comes from the Latin umbra, meaning "shadow," which hints at its darker, muted nature. Originally, it described a clay-like material containing iron and manganese oxides, used since ancient times in art and dyes. The color "umber" is typically a dark, earthy brown with a warm or slightly cool undertone, depending on its preparation—raw umber being more subdued and yellowish, while burnt umber, heated to intensify it, shifts richer and redder.
And to add more fuel to the fire, here is a certified (V.G. Greene) #52, violet brown (again, City Stamp Montreal)
And the three together,
Roy
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You are awesome Roy!
Thats a lot of info...
In this case, I am not too sure if a reverse scan will help...
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Everyone sees colors differently! Asking for an opinion is madness because you'll get a different answer at almost every third post.
Identifying colors can be dizzying to say the least and is complicated by all of the color keys out there with names like umber and every other superlative name to describe a color shade for instance pigeon blood pink. Whomever thought of giving that color descriptive term to a shade of pink needs their head examined with a tack hammer. But find one and you've hit a small lottery if you can find the right buyer.
Try buying paint or stain at home depot, hardware or a paint store sometime and you'll understand what I mean. There is at least 3 different brands of paints with the color swatches with names given to the color shade to describe the base color the pigment is added to it. Then to complicate matters even more try matching a color to an existing color in your home. Different companies use their own proprietary pigment, ink and superlative name to describe the color then it is patented then every few years change the descriptive color term/name.
Here is another good example for all of you automotive enthusiast's out there and here is to all the Mopar/Dodge fans plum crazy purple. Yet another for the model car builders who use Testors paint Candy Emerald Green. Do you all get the picture?
Now someone asked. Why is looking at the back of the stamp helpful to identify a color?
It is because with the papers that were used at the time the stamp in this discussion was first printed the paper absorbed copious amounts of ink that can sometimes be seen more clearly from the back because of that transfer rather than the front where ink from the cancel has absorbed into the stamp from the front. Which is the case for the stamp that is the topic of discussion.
It is a used stamp and who really knows what kind of environmental changes it has been through being over 100 years old? Soaking it off of the original cover/envelope/post card or some other form of postal media changes the original color. Let's not forget sunlight, smoke, oxidation of the original ink, molds, mildew, humidity and chemicals can change the colors. But I don't need to tell you experts out there. Or maybe I do?
Take your best (SWAG) scientific wild arse guess with the resources you have and continue chasing those rabbits like the rest of us do and keep on collecting.
Jeremy
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Well said Sarge!
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Yessir Sarge (oops not supposed to salute sergeants)...in any case. I will follow you anywhere!
,
Also, I've added rear pics per requests. BTW, the one on the left is the unused one.
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@Harvey
Reference your posting dated: 27 Apr 2025 06:43:55pm
No offense, but what part of "might help" that you do not understand?
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02:26:31pm
I was very leery about responding to this but decided to go for it anyway. You have to work on your tact (look it up) a bit when you respond to messages here, you tend to be a bit offensive at times. Please don't be too offended by this, I'm just stating my opinion.
To go back to the topic, I find colour shades very difficult. Possibly it's my eyes acting up a bit. It is also very difficult to judge by uploaded images since most monitors show colours and shades a bit differently.
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I'll leave this here. Falkland Islands KGVI 5/-, in three different shades. From top to bottom: Indigo & Pale Yellow-Brown, Blue & Chestnut and Steel-Blue & Buff-Brown. The top one is £1,100 CV, the second £95, the third £500. It's important to work them out!
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That would be a tough set!
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Dave,
What color guide, guides, gauge, gauges, catalog or catalogs did you use to identify and positively identify the colors? I have found it to be an arduous task sometimes to nail down some of the color shades especially with used multi colored stamps like the ones you have shown us in your post. I have found it much easier with unused stamps unless of course it sticks out like a sore thumb.
For instance Scott# 236 in violet or red violet. Those colors are very easy for me to distinguish the difference in shade variety. When it comes to other colors such as the shades of blues and pinks or carmines I find it hard on the eyes as I'm sure many of us do.
What is you method/secret?
Bigcreekdad,
Thank you for posting the backs of your stamps. Like I said posting the backs sometimes helps. But as is the case with the stamps you have posted I didn't find it helpful at all. But that is how it goes sometimes you cant win them all. Thanks for playing.
Jeremy
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"What is you method/secret?"
I use the specialised Falklands catalogue (Heijtz). I'm fortunate to have the author as an internet friend, and after comparing the shades by eye I asked him for confirmation. Yes, the differences are subtle, but side-by-side, they make sense. I have difficulty with red shades, but not with brown, so we all have challenges!
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I think...
If we all combine what we can see with our own eyes, we will have the best color gauge there ever was! 
-Ari
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My collection is British Empire 1910-1936, and for that era, this is still my go-to colour guide. It's the only one that allows you to see the colour in a stamp format.
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09:19:51am
Fantastic, thanks very much for showing!!!
EDIT: It just proves how useless computer monitors are for showing colour shades. Many of these look the same to me!! Of course it could also be my 73 year old eyes!
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I NEEEEED one of those!! How much are they??
-Ari
P.S. Joe, your eyes, have maybe better color id than me, so I think you are fine! 
(Am very gauge reliant on some spectrums, don't get me started on Vermillion!
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"How much are they??"
They can be picked up at auction from time to time. I have a couple, and they cost me around A$50 each.
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The last time I saw one sold it went for £12 on ebay.
Here are the other 2 parts:-
and the info from within.
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If I'd have seen this one, I'd be the proud owner of 3!
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That one is overpriced for the condition, not to mention the ridiculous Ebay Global postage charge to Australia of £22!!
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Who the heck ever heard of umber brown? I thought the one on the right might be violet brown. But after 30 minutes of looking around, I give up!
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03:19:58pm
re: I hate trying to ID colors....brown, umber brown or violet brown..... ?
Never. LOL. I have a Stanley Gibbons stamp color key. The scan is closest to purple-brown. I have the stamp in an album, I'll check it later but the scan looks pretty good.
The album copy matches the SG purple-brown.
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Back when I had a bunch! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
27 Apr 2025
03:21:36pm
re: I hate trying to ID colors....brown, umber brown or violet brown..... ?
Newfoundland #51 and 52 I assume!! Good luck with that!! I supposedly have both but they both look the same to me! Yours look different to me but which is which? Your guess is as good, or maybe better, than mine!
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re: I hate trying to ID colors....brown, umber brown or violet brown..... ?
Reverse scan?
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05:22:22pm
re: I hate trying to ID colors....brown, umber brown or violet brown..... ?
I'm not an expert, but on my monitor the stamp on the right looks like a definite #52, while the one on the left might be also (after all, they've had over a century to lose "post office fresh" colour). I have never seen a colour guide that identified umber brown, but I am confident it is significantly different from the violet brown of a #52. My perception, for what it might be worth.
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re: I hate trying to ID colors....brown, umber brown or violet brown..... ?
1899.....uh no.
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re: I hate trying to ID colors....brown, umber brown or violet brown..... ?
Reverse might help your question!
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Back when I had a bunch! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
27 Apr 2025
06:43:55pm
re: I hate trying to ID colors....brown, umber brown or violet brown..... ?
"Reverse might help your question!"
How is that going to help with the colour of the stamp? I'm not trying to be offensive 1899 but all we are concerned about here is the colour of the stamp, there are only brown (51a), umber brown (51) and violet brown (52) to worry about - no other differences! Unless we had it on cover or with a readable postmark, 51 was released in 1887 and 52 in 1896, a re-release with usually a brighter colour.
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re: I hate trying to ID colors....brown, umber brown or violet brown..... ?
@Harvey
Offset color if there is some!
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re: I hate trying to ID colors....brown, umber brown or violet brown..... ?
I'd expect umber brown to have a darker, burnt, appearance. The stamp on the right looks purple brown to me, but the cancel on the other stamp makes it almost impossible to determine the shade. The dark cancel plays havoc with the eye's perception
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BuckaCover.com - 80,000 covers priced 60c to $1.50 - Easy browsing 500 categories
28 Apr 2025
01:44:00am
re: I hate trying to ID colors....brown, umber brown or violet brown..... ?
Newfoundland 51a brown / 51 umber brown
(images thanks to City Stamp Montreal)
Umber brown is a specific shade of brown that sets it apart from the broader, more general category of "brown." Umber brown typically has a darker, richer tone with subtle undertones that give it a distinct character. It often leans toward a warm, earthy hue, sometimes with hints of red, yellow, or even a slight grayish quality, depending on whether it's raw umber (more yellowish) or burnt umber (deeper and reddish). Think of it as a refined, nuanced version of brown—like the color of fertile soil or aged wood.
In contrast, "brown" is a wide-ranging term that covers any number of shades, from light tan to deep chocolate, without specific undertones or defining features. It’s the catch-all category, while umber brown is a more deliberate, sophisticated member of that family.
On its own, "umber" refers to a natural earth pigment or the color derived from it. The term comes from the Latin umbra, meaning "shadow," which hints at its darker, muted nature. Originally, it described a clay-like material containing iron and manganese oxides, used since ancient times in art and dyes. The color "umber" is typically a dark, earthy brown with a warm or slightly cool undertone, depending on its preparation—raw umber being more subdued and yellowish, while burnt umber, heated to intensify it, shifts richer and redder.
And to add more fuel to the fire, here is a certified (V.G. Greene) #52, violet brown (again, City Stamp Montreal)
And the three together,
Roy
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re: I hate trying to ID colors....brown, umber brown or violet brown..... ?
You are awesome Roy!
Thats a lot of info...
In this case, I am not too sure if a reverse scan will help...
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11:29:46am
re: I hate trying to ID colors....brown, umber brown or violet brown..... ?
Everyone sees colors differently! Asking for an opinion is madness because you'll get a different answer at almost every third post.
Identifying colors can be dizzying to say the least and is complicated by all of the color keys out there with names like umber and every other superlative name to describe a color shade for instance pigeon blood pink. Whomever thought of giving that color descriptive term to a shade of pink needs their head examined with a tack hammer. But find one and you've hit a small lottery if you can find the right buyer.
Try buying paint or stain at home depot, hardware or a paint store sometime and you'll understand what I mean. There is at least 3 different brands of paints with the color swatches with names given to the color shade to describe the base color the pigment is added to it. Then to complicate matters even more try matching a color to an existing color in your home. Different companies use their own proprietary pigment, ink and superlative name to describe the color then it is patented then every few years change the descriptive color term/name.
Here is another good example for all of you automotive enthusiast's out there and here is to all the Mopar/Dodge fans plum crazy purple. Yet another for the model car builders who use Testors paint Candy Emerald Green. Do you all get the picture?
Now someone asked. Why is looking at the back of the stamp helpful to identify a color?
It is because with the papers that were used at the time the stamp in this discussion was first printed the paper absorbed copious amounts of ink that can sometimes be seen more clearly from the back because of that transfer rather than the front where ink from the cancel has absorbed into the stamp from the front. Which is the case for the stamp that is the topic of discussion.
It is a used stamp and who really knows what kind of environmental changes it has been through being over 100 years old? Soaking it off of the original cover/envelope/post card or some other form of postal media changes the original color. Let's not forget sunlight, smoke, oxidation of the original ink, molds, mildew, humidity and chemicals can change the colors. But I don't need to tell you experts out there. Or maybe I do?
Take your best (SWAG) scientific wild arse guess with the resources you have and continue chasing those rabbits like the rest of us do and keep on collecting.
Jeremy
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re: I hate trying to ID colors....brown, umber brown or violet brown..... ?
Well said Sarge!
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re: I hate trying to ID colors....brown, umber brown or violet brown..... ?
Yessir Sarge (oops not supposed to salute sergeants)...in any case. I will follow you anywhere!,
Also, I've added rear pics per requests. BTW, the one on the left is the unused one.
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re: I hate trying to ID colors....brown, umber brown or violet brown..... ?
@Harvey
Reference your posting dated: 27 Apr 2025 06:43:55pm
No offense, but what part of "might help" that you do not understand?
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Back when I had a bunch! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
29 Apr 2025
02:26:31pm
re: I hate trying to ID colors....brown, umber brown or violet brown..... ?
I was very leery about responding to this but decided to go for it anyway. You have to work on your tact (look it up) a bit when you respond to messages here, you tend to be a bit offensive at times. Please don't be too offended by this, I'm just stating my opinion.
To go back to the topic, I find colour shades very difficult. Possibly it's my eyes acting up a bit. It is also very difficult to judge by uploaded images since most monitors show colours and shades a bit differently.
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re: I hate trying to ID colors....brown, umber brown or violet brown..... ?
I'll leave this here. Falkland Islands KGVI 5/-, in three different shades. From top to bottom: Indigo & Pale Yellow-Brown, Blue & Chestnut and Steel-Blue & Buff-Brown. The top one is £1,100 CV, the second £95, the third £500. It's important to work them out!
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08:06:38am
re: I hate trying to ID colors....brown, umber brown or violet brown..... ?
That would be a tough set!
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12:02:53pm
re: I hate trying to ID colors....brown, umber brown or violet brown..... ?
Dave,
What color guide, guides, gauge, gauges, catalog or catalogs did you use to identify and positively identify the colors? I have found it to be an arduous task sometimes to nail down some of the color shades especially with used multi colored stamps like the ones you have shown us in your post. I have found it much easier with unused stamps unless of course it sticks out like a sore thumb.
For instance Scott# 236 in violet or red violet. Those colors are very easy for me to distinguish the difference in shade variety. When it comes to other colors such as the shades of blues and pinks or carmines I find it hard on the eyes as I'm sure many of us do.
What is you method/secret?
Bigcreekdad,
Thank you for posting the backs of your stamps. Like I said posting the backs sometimes helps. But as is the case with the stamps you have posted I didn't find it helpful at all. But that is how it goes sometimes you cant win them all. Thanks for playing.
Jeremy
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re: I hate trying to ID colors....brown, umber brown or violet brown..... ?
"What is you method/secret?"
I use the specialised Falklands catalogue (Heijtz). I'm fortunate to have the author as an internet friend, and after comparing the shades by eye I asked him for confirmation. Yes, the differences are subtle, but side-by-side, they make sense. I have difficulty with red shades, but not with brown, so we all have challenges!
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re: I hate trying to ID colors....brown, umber brown or violet brown..... ?
I think...
If we all combine what we can see with our own eyes, we will have the best color gauge there ever was!
-Ari
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re: I hate trying to ID colors....brown, umber brown or violet brown..... ?
My collection is British Empire 1910-1936, and for that era, this is still my go-to colour guide. It's the only one that allows you to see the colour in a stamp format.
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Back when I had a bunch! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
01 May 2025
09:19:51am
re: I hate trying to ID colors....brown, umber brown or violet brown..... ?
Fantastic, thanks very much for showing!!!
EDIT: It just proves how useless computer monitors are for showing colour shades. Many of these look the same to me!! Of course it could also be my 73 year old eyes!
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re: I hate trying to ID colors....brown, umber brown or violet brown..... ?
I NEEEEED one of those!! How much are they??
-Ari
P.S. Joe, your eyes, have maybe better color id than me, so I think you are fine!
(Am very gauge reliant on some spectrums, don't get me started on Vermillion!
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re: I hate trying to ID colors....brown, umber brown or violet brown..... ?
"How much are they??"
They can be picked up at auction from time to time. I have a couple, and they cost me around A$50 each.
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09:25:21am
re: I hate trying to ID colors....brown, umber brown or violet brown..... ?
The last time I saw one sold it went for £12 on ebay.
Here are the other 2 parts:-
and the info from within.
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re: I hate trying to ID colors....brown, umber brown or violet brown..... ?
If I'd have seen this one, I'd be the proud owner of 3!
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re: I hate trying to ID colors....brown, umber brown or violet brown..... ?
That one is overpriced for the condition, not to mention the ridiculous Ebay Global postage charge to Australia of £22!!
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