Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
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The stamps are probably real but the cancellation most likely is not.
Quote from a specialised site:
"The SA and SS issues can be found used, but there is considerable doubt as to the origin and validity of used copies. Currently scholarship seems to indicate no legitimate use of these issues prior to the final collapse of the German postal system in April 1945."
I suppose a certificate is needed to warrant the used catalogue value.
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I would agree!
The cancel looks a tiny bit artificial?
Maybe, just me?
-Ari
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Taken from page 165 of the typographed booklet "The Stamps of the Third Reich" by A. Harper and W. Scheck (1966)
Your scan is not 100% clear, but as far as I could see, the cancel reads "BERLIN" (... something) and date 23.4.45
Most of the post offices listed in the text were closed by that date, leaving only Wilmersdorf, W.15 and perhaps N.4, N.W.7 and W.8
Judging from the cancellation and the last sentence in the text, W.8 might be the most obvious one, but the writers also warn for cancels applied later...
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Thanks Jan Simon for the info.
When I have time I'll slip them through Image Sleuth and see if if the cancellations are clearer.
When I found them I thought they have to be fakes as what are the chances that genuine items turn up at an auction lot bought in Montrose, Angus Scotland!
They will still make a nice addition to my Germany collection.
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In the 1993/94 edition of Michel the stamps (Mi.909-10) are listed c.t.o. at DM 90.-, only slightly higher,than mint (DM 75.-).(€ 1.- equals roughly DM 2.-)
In 2005 they were listed as used at € 2400.-.
In the current Michel there is a note,that it is assumed that all cancelled stamps are fakes,cancelled
in the years after the war.
Used stamps are no longer listed and certified by BPP-experts.
Sic transit gloria mundi !
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Hello everyone,
To inform you about this very difficult chapter I include hereby some pages from the German Postal Specialist about the SA/SS covers with BERLIN C25 and BERLIN C43 Postmarks.
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Here some other samples :
Translation :
Almost all SA/SS letters were written after the collapse with the help of willing postal officials.
It cannot be confirmed with certainty whether this letter was actually sent.
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Front and Back of a letter from 20-04-1945 , Cancellation BERLIN C25 with a arrival cancellation on 21-04-1945
Front and Back of a letter from 20-04-1945 , Cancellation BERLIN C25
LOOK CLOSELY AT THE HANDWRITING OF BOTH ENVELOPES........
SAME HANDWRITING AND ALMOST SAME ADDRESS AND SAME TIME OF THE CANCELLATION (13:00 hours)
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Interesting article, but to me it seems highly conjectural. Theories that are only based on the fact that it was not impossible. To me that is something completely different from actual proof. In the article it says on page 56 'it was possible' and 'it could be done', which is all fine, but it does not mean it really happened. The story that the postal clerks were all trained and educated in the Prussian system does not necessarily mean corruption or crime did not exist in good old Prussia. It is a pretty silly and weak argument, I think. There were prisons in Prussia, quite a few actually, so that must mean some people did things they ought not do. And especially in a time when the veneer of civilization had disappeared and anarchy and barbarism prevailed, would everybody be inclined to keep up with the old rules? If someone offered money, or better perhaps, food or other stuff you or your family could use, would you still say sorry, the regulations of the postal department forbid that I hand over this cancelling device? On the other hand, why is the theory that some rogue stamp dealer buddies raided a post office, took the registration labels and cancellers and left, not pursued? It is as likely (or unlikely) as any other theory.
Anyway, long story short, as Werner stated
"In the current Michel there is a note,that it is assumed that all cancelled stamps are fakes,cancelled
in the years after the war.
Used stamps are no longer listed and certified by BPP-experts. "
Meaning to me that in the years after this article was published, the consensus among experts has become that there are no genuine used stamps Mi# 909/910, and often the Walch / Strobel article is quoted as justification. I have not seen that, but it must have some compelling arguments.
Looking at the evidence, all one can say is that a large number of almost identical covers exist, written by a very small group of people and supposedly sent to addresses or people that do not exist. If that does not scream out loud "fake", what does?
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JanSimon,
I began the post with :
"To inform you about this very difficult chapter I.........."
I personally think that 99.5 % of those cancelled stamps are back-dated.
I have many of those articles written by a lot of different authors and nobody can really say if it is genuine or not.
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03:00:49pm
Real or to Scam?
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Auctions - Approvals
re: Fake or Fortune 2
The stamps are probably real but the cancellation most likely is not.
Quote from a specialised site:
"The SA and SS issues can be found used, but there is considerable doubt as to the origin and validity of used copies. Currently scholarship seems to indicate no legitimate use of these issues prior to the final collapse of the German postal system in April 1945."
I suppose a certificate is needed to warrant the used catalogue value.
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Approvals
re: Fake or Fortune 2
I would agree!
The cancel looks a tiny bit artificial?
Maybe, just me?
-Ari
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Auctions - Approvals
re: Fake or Fortune 2
Taken from page 165 of the typographed booklet "The Stamps of the Third Reich" by A. Harper and W. Scheck (1966)
Your scan is not 100% clear, but as far as I could see, the cancel reads "BERLIN" (... something) and date 23.4.45
Most of the post offices listed in the text were closed by that date, leaving only Wilmersdorf, W.15 and perhaps N.4, N.W.7 and W.8
Judging from the cancellation and the last sentence in the text, W.8 might be the most obvious one, but the writers also warn for cancels applied later...
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10:20:39am
re: Fake or Fortune 2
Thanks Jan Simon for the info.
When I have time I'll slip them through Image Sleuth and see if if the cancellations are clearer.
When I found them I thought they have to be fakes as what are the chances that genuine items turn up at an auction lot bought in Montrose, Angus Scotland!
They will still make a nice addition to my Germany collection.
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05:43:08am
re: Fake or Fortune 2
In the 1993/94 edition of Michel the stamps (Mi.909-10) are listed c.t.o. at DM 90.-, only slightly higher,than mint (DM 75.-).(€ 1.- equals roughly DM 2.-)
In 2005 they were listed as used at € 2400.-.
In the current Michel there is a note,that it is assumed that all cancelled stamps are fakes,cancelled
in the years after the war.
Used stamps are no longer listed and certified by BPP-experts.
Sic transit gloria mundi !
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re: Fake or Fortune 2
Hello everyone,
To inform you about this very difficult chapter I include hereby some pages from the German Postal Specialist about the SA/SS covers with BERLIN C25 and BERLIN C43 Postmarks.
3 Members
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re: Fake or Fortune 2
Here some other samples :
Translation :
Almost all SA/SS letters were written after the collapse with the help of willing postal officials.
It cannot be confirmed with certainty whether this letter was actually sent.
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re: Fake or Fortune 2
Front and Back of a letter from 20-04-1945 , Cancellation BERLIN C25 with a arrival cancellation on 21-04-1945
Front and Back of a letter from 20-04-1945 , Cancellation BERLIN C25
LOOK CLOSELY AT THE HANDWRITING OF BOTH ENVELOPES........
SAME HANDWRITING AND ALMOST SAME ADDRESS AND SAME TIME OF THE CANCELLATION (13:00 hours)
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like this post.
Login to Like.
Auctions - Approvals
re: Fake or Fortune 2
Interesting article, but to me it seems highly conjectural. Theories that are only based on the fact that it was not impossible. To me that is something completely different from actual proof. In the article it says on page 56 'it was possible' and 'it could be done', which is all fine, but it does not mean it really happened. The story that the postal clerks were all trained and educated in the Prussian system does not necessarily mean corruption or crime did not exist in good old Prussia. It is a pretty silly and weak argument, I think. There were prisons in Prussia, quite a few actually, so that must mean some people did things they ought not do. And especially in a time when the veneer of civilization had disappeared and anarchy and barbarism prevailed, would everybody be inclined to keep up with the old rules? If someone offered money, or better perhaps, food or other stuff you or your family could use, would you still say sorry, the regulations of the postal department forbid that I hand over this cancelling device? On the other hand, why is the theory that some rogue stamp dealer buddies raided a post office, took the registration labels and cancellers and left, not pursued? It is as likely (or unlikely) as any other theory.
Anyway, long story short, as Werner stated
"In the current Michel there is a note,that it is assumed that all cancelled stamps are fakes,cancelled
in the years after the war.
Used stamps are no longer listed and certified by BPP-experts. "
Meaning to me that in the years after this article was published, the consensus among experts has become that there are no genuine used stamps Mi# 909/910, and often the Walch / Strobel article is quoted as justification. I have not seen that, but it must have some compelling arguments.
Looking at the evidence, all one can say is that a large number of almost identical covers exist, written by a very small group of people and supposedly sent to addresses or people that do not exist. If that does not scream out loud "fake", what does?
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re: Fake or Fortune 2
JanSimon,
I began the post with :
"To inform you about this very difficult chapter I.........."
I personally think that 99.5 % of those cancelled stamps are back-dated.
I have many of those articles written by a lot of different authors and nobody can really say if it is genuine or not.
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