Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Got this response, guess I will not be purchasing from them again.
"hi, you have opened a case, which I will have to answer by 13th as Ebay will penalise me. Had you sent a normal message we could have waited. Am a little annoyed as Ebay use all sorts if Stats against us sellers which means I will go further down the page when people are looking for items lots of us are selling. A simple message would also have meant I could have scanned the posting receipt to show your order was posted on 4th September, by opening a case i cannot send images. Once posted I am in others hands and relying on them to deliver safely. "
Not arrived today either, mail from UK takes no more than two weeks normally.
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07:58:43pm
I hate to say it, but he's absolutely correct.
Once you "Open a case" (i.e. file a "not received" notice on ebay) it now goes by ebay's clock, and it's ticking. Either you receive it by ebay's deadline and cancel the case, or he will be forced to refund. If he doesn't, they will. And either way, it all goes into the negative metrics which can determine "Seller Status".
A simple "Message to seller" allows much more leeway. For example, an extension of time (happens to all of us sellers), substitution of an identical item, a refund or something else mutually agreeable.
We run an average of 150 auctions a week. Some stuff is always held up along the way and our customers let us know directly. Most of the time, it arrives the next day. Generally, we ask them to hold on a week longer, and if that date comes and no delivery, we refund ... with no case opened.
Roy
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Roy, I'm sure what you write is correct, but it was the tone of the reply that irritates. I had already said that I do not want a refund, and that I was giving longer time.
A better response would have been along the lines of, thanks for letting me know of non arrival. I wondered why I had not had your feedback. Appreciate your giving the mail more time.
Even if I had emailed direct, which is impossible, it has to go through ebay, where I'm sure their AI system would have "read" the message, with the same ending.
Hopefully it will arrive some time this week and all will be fine.
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Sorry, but the seller, tone or not, is absolutely correct here, and this is exactly why I decided just yesterday to close my Ebay store. The first resolve for an unhappy buyer is always to call the cops rather than contacting the seller.
Since Covid, the mail system is in disarray. I've sent a letter 500kms (up the road to us) that took 6 weeks to arrive. I've sent mail to the UK that arrived in 3 months. Buyers are impatient and unreasonable when it comes to understanding this.
I've sold on Ebay for 25 years, since inception. I've come and gone, but this time I'm leaving for good. I've received vindictive and incorrect negative feedback for a $3.95 sale, and I've been accused by the buyer of lying and not co-operating, because I didn't provide proof of posting. How do you do that for a standard domestic letter? Seriously, who needs the stress and aggravation?
I suppose I could demand that every sale, whether it's a dollar or a thousand dollars must be sent Registered and Signed For. The cost of that would both minimise my sales and weed out the whingers.
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10:09:03pm
@sheepshanks
Not to argue, but just to clarify a couple of points.
The issue at hand revolves around the difference between "Opening a case" (i.e using the link on ebay that "reports" a late or non-delivery) and using the link that simply allows communication between buyer and seller ("Contact Seller"), through ebay.
They are two different things. If you report the non-delivery to ebay (which is the link the seller says you used), the options you offered (wait longer, don't want a refund) are not available because you have now initiated a"Case" in the ebay reporting system and it marches to its own tune. The seller is offered the "opportunity" to make an immediate refund or he can let the case deadline approach. If he has not made the refund by the deadline, or the case is not closed by the buyer (because delivery finally occurred), ebay will make the refund on its own. This is very bad for the seller's rep on ebay. There is no negotiation possible, friendly or otherwise along this route.
The "Contact the Seller" allows communication between buyer and seller just like the Stamporama private messages feature. Yes, ebay does monitor these communications, mostly for the purpose of prohibiting "off-ebay" transactions, but does not otherwise get involved. You are correct, that a direct email is impossible (unless you know the other party through other means), but your belief that AI would shunt your message into the Reporting function is not a valid one. We engage in this kind of communication with buyers several times a month (our average number of ebay sales per month is around 500, so it's a very small percentage).
I hope that clears things up, including for those simply watching this thread.
Roy
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"I've sold on Ebay for 25 years, since inception. I've come and gone, but this time I'm leaving for good. I've received vindictive and incorrect negative feedback for a $3.95 sale, and I've been accused by the buyer of lying and not co-operating, because I didn't provide proof of posting. How do you do that for a standard domestic letter? Seriously, who needs the stress and aggravation?"
Dave, me too. Been a seller on ebay since the very beginning and have experienced the same sort of things that you have. I am not at a point where I'll close my store. I have learned as have you that the seller is always wrong. Long gone are the days you can negotiate with a buyer. I usually get an email that says they have not received an item , and I just refund them. Why even bother to discuss it. Ebay will ALWAYS side with a buyer. Worldwide postal employees are my employees and so I have treated these employees by not giving them raises when the price of a stamp goes up here in the US. After refunding them I always add them to my blocked buyer list as either the buyer is lying or the post office carrier is incompetent, so I will not give them a second chance. I know too that people have no tolerance for delay. Ebays time frame is incredibly small. Our PO has its mail picked up at 4:45 in the afternoon, and brought to a distribution center where it sits for who knows how long before being sent out, especially international mail. I have discontinued international shipping on ebay. Too difficult to do that on Hipstamp. I will say though that I do have my doubts about the buyers on ebay. Here on SOR, except for Australia and one to Canada, I have never had a lost shipment reported to me. Hipstamp, where I have more sales than ebay, maybe one or two a year. Ebay though is much higher so I am suspicious.
"A simple message would also have meant I could have scanned the posting receipt to show your order was posted on 4th September, by opening a case i cannot send images."
I am not sure what this seller means. If he does indeed have a tracking number then supplying it SHOULD end the issue. I can't imagine it could be anything else as what other kind of receipt could he have been given by the PO?
Greg
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" what other kind of receipt could he have been given by the PO? "
Any Post Office in the UK will provide a "Proof of Postage" receipt to the seller when asked. The receipt shows time and date of the shipment and the adress and zip code of the buyer. One can use it in a claim for non delivery against Royal Mail whether domestic or international. It gives the seller some protection against non delivery without having to charge buyers the extortionate rates for "International Signed For".
I stopped selling on ebay many, many, many months ago as the costs, payment system, poor postal systems and aggravations from some buyers were not worth it.
My wife stopped selling other items, other than stamps, on ebay for the rudeness and outrageous demands of buyers.
Unfortunately humans do the selling and the buying and there are many folkies who think they are the "centre of the universe" and demand levels of service that are outwith the control of the seller eg "I want the latest comemmorative stamps on my package". Aye good luck with that one as the local post offices do not stock them.
We have a saying in Old Caledonia:- Patience, perseverence and a wee drop oil and you'll keep your sanity.
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An open letter to our sellers- along with a request.
Your selling experiences, positive and negative, cannot be argued with- you know what works and what doesn't. I'd like to review what I'm getting from your sharing, and request clarification/correction for me to understand better.
The negative experiences seem to be centered around the buyer as a customer, and you as a vendor. Both are complaining about the other. Perhaps that is the way it has to be in the outside world- but isn't there an alternative?
SOR is a club, made up of like-minded folk pursuing similar interests. The 'business model' is but a part of the whole. I would argue that the friendship model is a better overall fit, especially as we approach the final quarter of our lives. Focus upon the business end alone might be short-sighted and bring less joy and happiness than need be.
When Ken was our SOR secretary, we swapped over $5,000+ cat. val. of items, with joy and fondness without a ripple of discontent. And that was only one of many swaps. Ken is long gone now, but never forgotten.
Each of you guys also contribute to SOR, but it's your focus on the model that grabs my attention. Am I looking at this wrongly, or am I picking up on a need for a phillatelic hug?
Your thoughts would be appreciated. Once delivered, we'll be able to focus upon a solution(s) or on my part to accept the offered correction(s) in thought.
Thanks,
Dan C.
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"Any Post Office in the UK will provide a "Proof of Postage" receipt to the seller when asked."
Ian, I am curious how your mail system works for first class letters. We just toss them into a slot (unless someone foolishly hands them to a clerk. Thats all I will say on that matter). How would your system know that you handed them say 25 letters at one time. How does it distinguish it on a receipt? I think you can pay for letter tracking here in the US, but that would mean paying extra (probably) for every letter and having a scanable code pasted onto each letter. I cannot imagine our clerks being happy about that, let alone the line in back of you. Even with that, a scanned parcel means nothing if the buyer doesn't receive it. They will still file a claim and I would say ebay MIGHT side with the seller as there would be proof but who knows. Back in the day, pre ebay managed payments, if the one time that ebay sided with the seller, the buyer would then file a claim with PAYPAL and get reimbursed, which happened to me a couple of times when I used to sell books to buyers outside the US.
"Perhaps that is the way it has to be in the outside world- but isn't there an alternative?"
Back when I started selling, buyer and seller would agree to split a loss. No more. You cannot even negotiate that. Its part of the "its all about me" world that now exists. I'm right, you're wrong. End of story. I sold a piece of sheet music to a person that was the violin part of a violin/viola duet. It said so on the music, it said so in my listing. He demanded a refund. Why? Because there was no viola part. He claimed I was being fraudulent in my listing and specifically did not send him the rest of the music. Misdescribed is what he sad, and ebay refunded him. Not only that, I had offered to take back the music and his response was "I tossed it out because I did not think you wanted to have incomplete music" Sure you did. I just shook my head and blacklisted him. It's the cost of doing business. What Ians wife said is true. It comes from no longer teaching people to respect one another, and I see little hope of that changing anytime soon here in the US.
Greg
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Wow, did not realise I would be upsetting so many folks.
Today Ebay has refunded my purchase, seller says he is saddened by my lack of contact, well sorry but we all agree to the terms of the sales sites.
If and when the item arrives I will pay the total cost immediately.
It will be interesting to see what the delay has been. Other items purchased from the UK subsequently have all arrived.
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I use regular mail to send all my stamps. Yeah I know it's "illegal" but otherwise non-US buyers will be paying $15+ for a "package". I realize orders will be lost. My terms state this upfront and state if you want tracking, etc. you will need to let me know before you pay and pay for it. My refund rate is less than 1/2%. Maybe I've just been really lucky but had very few horrible buyers.... the worst being one woman in Portugal who gave me negative feedback even though I refunded her the money (and the stamps showed up a month later in my po box as 'undeliverable'). At least eBay allows you to rebut any negatives you might get. I don't like the system but to me it is just part of the cost of doing business. I worked in retail for a few years in the 1980's and 'shrinkage' (loss due to theft, damage, etc) was part of the budget. I have my issues with eBay, but the grass is not greener on the Hipstamp side, at least not for me. Because of them forcing us to use PayPal selling is much more expensive there, and their sync process leaves a lot to be desired. Is the extra work I have to do worth the sales I am getting?
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10:25:42am
"Wow, did not realise I would be upsetting so many folks."
I don't think any of the respondents to this post have been upset. Certainly not me.
But it is a useful post for giving would-be ebay sellers an insight into the business side of selling on ebay (and other sites), as well as for buyers to see the impact of rules, regulations and policies that sellers have to put up with (not to mention irascible, illogical and downright dishonest buyers).
An excellent piece of advice comes from "Jerryderry":
"'shrinkage' (loss due to theft, damage, etc) was part of the budget."
100% correct. And if you are not prepared to adopt that attitude, selling online in commercial venues will be a frustrating experience (at best).
Roy
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Coping with shrinkage is easy, coping with shrinking courtesy and civility is much, much, harder!
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Are you going to refund the money to the seller when (not if) the stamps arrive sheepshanks? (EDIT: I see in a reply where you say you will! GREAT!!!)
It's buyers like you is the reason I'm getting out of the business too.
Sorry to be so blunt....but you did not handle this correctly and did not give the seller a chance to send shipping info or give at least a partial refund. He still got negative metrics against him even if you receive your package and you refund him.
Mike
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I quit ebay a long time ago, I did not like the way the site evolved and much of what has been said here is recognisable. It is true that as a seller on ebay you are at the mercy of the buyers. Their negative feedback is a powerful weapon and they know it. Of course many buyers are good, most even, but there are just too much who are out there to screw the seller...
Over here I have had a few problems as well, letters that were lost in the mailing process, but it has been an exception and when it happens I sometimes ask for a bit more patience, send replacements if possible or issue a refund (or give credit, which is easier).
Yes, one reaches many more potential buyers on ebay, compared to our little auction and approval sections, but it comes with a price, and I try to avoid that price when I can. I think I can't complain about the way things are going here on Stamporama!
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In my opinion there are two side to this issue; sellers’ perspective and buyers’ perspective. It is something that we see quite often in other forums too; sellers who think the eBay playing field is tilted against them and buyers who think the opposite. I think that there are many, many examples that can be given to support both perspectives. I won’t bother to list the various justifications for either perspective but ultimately I am not sure that they matter; we all see life through our own lens.
I think the most important thing to remember is that keep an open mind and be receptive and respectful to other perspectives. This is especially hard right now, in the incredibly divisive times we are living in.
Don
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Dan C
Stamporama is fine. The sellers sell and the buyers buy.
Of course there are the odd niggles 'cos we are dealing with humans but all in all the systems work and the vast majority of members are happy with their lot.
One must recognise that no system is perfect and what suits one member may not suit any other.
However one of the joys of being a human being is that we like a good bitching session, we love to moan and groan and of course our personal opinion is the only one that matters in the whole universe!
We have a saying in Old Caledonia:- "The older you get, the better you get, unless you’re a banana.”
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Greg:-
If you want a "proof of postage" receipt then one has to be produced for each letter/package. Yes the clerks would be upset if you handed them 25 to do, as would those behind you in the line.
It is a handy option for new customers. Of course we all get the demanding customer or the customer that sends the hackles on your neck up and the "proof of postage" is a handy option.
YES one must take into account "shrinkage" and budget accordingly.
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Ian, wow. I cannot imagine that being done at our PO's. I think back to a time when we lived in a different area and I had not yet started printing my own labels. I was selling some coins that were part of an inheritance and to the PO with a small shopping bag of maybe a dozen boxes. When the clerk saw what I was carrying she closed her window and said she was now on break. From then on I began printing my own labels and handing packages to the carrier. Saved me a fortune and still does...... With ebay I don't know if they would accept that as proof, a receipt from the PO. It still has no tracking info. Then again with their "we ship stuff for you" policy of ebays standard envelope there is no real tracking via the post office with that as they use their own system. Likewise their international mailing service. I'll stick to doing it all myself. Besides, 63 cents is no bargain (ebays fee) compared to using your own postage.
Greg
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Greg
Ebay would not accept the"proof of postage" but it enables the seller to claim from Royal Mail for the loss up to $25 plus postage cost.
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"The first resolve for an unhappy buyer is always to call the cops rather than contacting the seller."
Dave, I think Ebay has to take a lot of blame for that. I remember a time I also wanted to send a seller a message and then the interview starts "Is this about an item you purchased?" ; "Which one?" and before you know it a case has been opened without the buyers knowledge.
I remember going around in circles and not finding my way out.
Same thing when you want to contact Ebay - they have buried their contact phone so deep, it takes a lot of digging to find it.
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I disagree, contacting a seller is very straightforward. In "purchase history" there's a drop-down box named "more actions". Click on "contact seller" and your enquiry is specific to that item. There's absolutely no need to open a case unless you want to
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Ian your Royal Mail is better than what we have when it comes to that. I recall years ago when something got lost being sent to me, the PO telling me the seller had to a) prove what was in the envelope and b) prove its value, both of which is impossible. The sender should have insured it. I doubt things have changed. The receipt, if one could have been generated would have told the PO nothing of that nature. Now we have problems of mail theft, people breaking into the relay boxes where mail carriers pick up their mail rather than going back to the PO when the bag is empty. The response from the PO from what I have been reading is that they are working on it. I can fix their problem right away. Stop daily mail. It can't be robbed if there is nothing in the box. If you want daily mail, get a box at the PO, just as it used to be done eons ago when the PO was part of the General Store. We have no mail delivery here in Cornwall PA. No carriers. Delivered mail comes from a city 9 miles away and they send a truck twice a week. Want daily mail? That comes to the PO boxes at 6:30AM. Convert these huge PO's as we had in the town we lived in before to a couple of thousand PO boxes. What does a person really get in the mail every day that is so important that it needs daily delivery, packages excluded from weekly mail delivery.
Greg
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Don
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Nice one Don, probably fits me too well.
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Envelope arrived today, not as signed for mail, no return address, nothing inside other than the covers and the slip shown in the image below.
There was not a customs form on the envelope, so possibly this is what delayed the mailing. Postage was correct for 62g weight. But not for international signed for.
I have messaged the seller via Ebay as to making payment. Could not find anything on the site that allowed me to so do. Ebay assistant was unable to answer my question of how to make payment.
I also thanked the seller for the envelope stamps.
Edit to add, an order from UK posted 1st. Oct also arrived today, nice envelope stamps but sadly not postmarked.
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Is that your name & mailing address...? (I typically blur or mask out personal info with online images just to be safe).
Don
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Yes it is Don, but it's available in the members area as well and as anyone can now join without a fee, hardly worth hiding. Though if folks want to send me funds they will be most welcome.
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"I have messaged the seller via Ebay as to making payment."
I honestly don't think there is a way other than sending money via a source outside ebays managed payments. I am curious as you mentioned the postge was correct for the weight, but not if the letter had to be signed for. Did you sign for it? If so then your Royal Mail works like our mail here. It really doesn't matter how much postage is on the envelope.
Greg
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Hi Greg, no did not have to sign for the mail, it was in my post box, like usual mail.
I think that Royal Mail International signed for would have been about £7.50 for the 62g weight, so it was not sent the way the seller described.
Not heard anything from the seller as yet.
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One of the eBay issues is that the time they allow a seller to ship by, sometimes overlaps with the anticipated receiving date they send the buyer. I just had one of those.
I got the dreaded "Item Not Received" message from eBay the day after I shipped an item. They gave me two days to rectify. One of the actions was to message the buyer, so I did. I told them it was just mailed and to give it a week. They responded they would.
Next thing I see is eBay found against me and refunded the buyer from my funds! I message the buyer again and he says that it was received, just like I said it would show up within the week. I saw that they added a "Cases Closed Without Buyer Resolution", which basically means I ignored the issue and eBay had to resolve the case.
There is a button for "Dispute Decision" so I did. My response was that buyer messaged the item WAS received. Surprise! They reversed their decision, took away the defect and put the money back in my account! And this is all about $3!
For instance, the items that I sold over the weekend all say, "Ship by Oct 18" (Wednesday). The message to the buyer says "Estimated between Fri, Oct 20 and Wed, Oct 25". So if I ship on Oct 18, it's hard for it to be received in 2 days, the 20th. Even the long end of it is only a week. I've had shipments take 2 weeks lately.
In the buyer's defense, eBay will message them "Received your item? If not file a claim" pretty quickly. I've gotten messages when I am perfectly happy urging me to request a return! They overservice the buyer and it hurts decent sellers.
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Hopefully then the seller can get the refund reversed. I have not as yet had any response from them. Strange that the seller says he was given until the 13th, yet they (Ebay) refunded me on the 12th.
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Just to add, I found the sellers details on the site and emailed the address given, it bounced "chris@naval-covers.co.uk: unable to look up host naval-covers.co.uk: Name or service not known".
I have found a Facebook listing for Chris Hockaday in Plymouth, which I think is one and the same person and have sent a message via that medium.
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The Philatelic Traders Society
https://www.thepts.net/members.html#!biz ...
lists his email address as
chrishockaday57@gmail.com
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Webpaper thank you very much, I'll try that email address as all others bounce, I think because there was not a domain name.
Edit:- message sent 30 minutes ago and has not bounced yet. Hopefully I get a reply.
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Have had a reply and sent money via Paypal. Alls well that ends well.
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Here’s why we get into these situations.. see the date at top.. eBay is forecasting delivery two days in the past! And if seller just mailed it, the end date is just two days! The package arrived a day after that!
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"Yes it is Don, but it's available in the members area as well and as anyone can now join without a fee, hardly worth hiding. Though if folks want to send me funds they will be most welcome."
...or stamps
Mike
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Bought items (on Ebay) that seller posted Royal Mail signed for, not having received anything by the end of last week, I sent a message through the site to let seller know and say that I would give it another week or so.
Got this response, guess I will not be purchasing from them again.
"hi, you have opened a case, which I will have to answer by 13th as Ebay will penalise me. Had you sent a normal message we could have waited. Am a little annoyed as Ebay use all sorts if Stats against us sellers which means I will go further down the page when people are looking for items lots of us are selling. A simple message would also have meant I could have scanned the posting receipt to show your order was posted on 4th September, by opening a case i cannot send images. Once posted I am in others hands and relying on them to deliver safely. "
Not arrived today either, mail from UK takes no more than two weeks normally.
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BuckaCover.com - 80,000 covers priced 60c to $1.50 - Easy browsing 500 categories
10 Oct 2023
07:58:43pm
re: Waiting on delivery, sellers miffed!
I hate to say it, but he's absolutely correct.
Once you "Open a case" (i.e. file a "not received" notice on ebay) it now goes by ebay's clock, and it's ticking. Either you receive it by ebay's deadline and cancel the case, or he will be forced to refund. If he doesn't, they will. And either way, it all goes into the negative metrics which can determine "Seller Status".
A simple "Message to seller" allows much more leeway. For example, an extension of time (happens to all of us sellers), substitution of an identical item, a refund or something else mutually agreeable.
We run an average of 150 auctions a week. Some stuff is always held up along the way and our customers let us know directly. Most of the time, it arrives the next day. Generally, we ask them to hold on a week longer, and if that date comes and no delivery, we refund ... with no case opened.
Roy
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re: Waiting on delivery, sellers miffed!
Roy, I'm sure what you write is correct, but it was the tone of the reply that irritates. I had already said that I do not want a refund, and that I was giving longer time.
A better response would have been along the lines of, thanks for letting me know of non arrival. I wondered why I had not had your feedback. Appreciate your giving the mail more time.
Even if I had emailed direct, which is impossible, it has to go through ebay, where I'm sure their AI system would have "read" the message, with the same ending.
Hopefully it will arrive some time this week and all will be fine.
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re: Waiting on delivery, sellers miffed!
Sorry, but the seller, tone or not, is absolutely correct here, and this is exactly why I decided just yesterday to close my Ebay store. The first resolve for an unhappy buyer is always to call the cops rather than contacting the seller.
Since Covid, the mail system is in disarray. I've sent a letter 500kms (up the road to us) that took 6 weeks to arrive. I've sent mail to the UK that arrived in 3 months. Buyers are impatient and unreasonable when it comes to understanding this.
I've sold on Ebay for 25 years, since inception. I've come and gone, but this time I'm leaving for good. I've received vindictive and incorrect negative feedback for a $3.95 sale, and I've been accused by the buyer of lying and not co-operating, because I didn't provide proof of posting. How do you do that for a standard domestic letter? Seriously, who needs the stress and aggravation?
I suppose I could demand that every sale, whether it's a dollar or a thousand dollars must be sent Registered and Signed For. The cost of that would both minimise my sales and weed out the whingers.
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BuckaCover.com - 80,000 covers priced 60c to $1.50 - Easy browsing 500 categories
10 Oct 2023
10:09:03pm
re: Waiting on delivery, sellers miffed!
@sheepshanks
Not to argue, but just to clarify a couple of points.
The issue at hand revolves around the difference between "Opening a case" (i.e using the link on ebay that "reports" a late or non-delivery) and using the link that simply allows communication between buyer and seller ("Contact Seller"), through ebay.
They are two different things. If you report the non-delivery to ebay (which is the link the seller says you used), the options you offered (wait longer, don't want a refund) are not available because you have now initiated a"Case" in the ebay reporting system and it marches to its own tune. The seller is offered the "opportunity" to make an immediate refund or he can let the case deadline approach. If he has not made the refund by the deadline, or the case is not closed by the buyer (because delivery finally occurred), ebay will make the refund on its own. This is very bad for the seller's rep on ebay. There is no negotiation possible, friendly or otherwise along this route.
The "Contact the Seller" allows communication between buyer and seller just like the Stamporama private messages feature. Yes, ebay does monitor these communications, mostly for the purpose of prohibiting "off-ebay" transactions, but does not otherwise get involved. You are correct, that a direct email is impossible (unless you know the other party through other means), but your belief that AI would shunt your message into the Reporting function is not a valid one. We engage in this kind of communication with buyers several times a month (our average number of ebay sales per month is around 500, so it's a very small percentage).
I hope that clears things up, including for those simply watching this thread.
Roy
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Auctions - Approvals
re: Waiting on delivery, sellers miffed!
"I've sold on Ebay for 25 years, since inception. I've come and gone, but this time I'm leaving for good. I've received vindictive and incorrect negative feedback for a $3.95 sale, and I've been accused by the buyer of lying and not co-operating, because I didn't provide proof of posting. How do you do that for a standard domestic letter? Seriously, who needs the stress and aggravation?"
Dave, me too. Been a seller on ebay since the very beginning and have experienced the same sort of things that you have. I am not at a point where I'll close my store. I have learned as have you that the seller is always wrong. Long gone are the days you can negotiate with a buyer. I usually get an email that says they have not received an item , and I just refund them. Why even bother to discuss it. Ebay will ALWAYS side with a buyer. Worldwide postal employees are my employees and so I have treated these employees by not giving them raises when the price of a stamp goes up here in the US. After refunding them I always add them to my blocked buyer list as either the buyer is lying or the post office carrier is incompetent, so I will not give them a second chance. I know too that people have no tolerance for delay. Ebays time frame is incredibly small. Our PO has its mail picked up at 4:45 in the afternoon, and brought to a distribution center where it sits for who knows how long before being sent out, especially international mail. I have discontinued international shipping on ebay. Too difficult to do that on Hipstamp. I will say though that I do have my doubts about the buyers on ebay. Here on SOR, except for Australia and one to Canada, I have never had a lost shipment reported to me. Hipstamp, where I have more sales than ebay, maybe one or two a year. Ebay though is much higher so I am suspicious.
"A simple message would also have meant I could have scanned the posting receipt to show your order was posted on 4th September, by opening a case i cannot send images."
I am not sure what this seller means. If he does indeed have a tracking number then supplying it SHOULD end the issue. I can't imagine it could be anything else as what other kind of receipt could he have been given by the PO?
Greg
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06:42:37am
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re: Waiting on delivery, sellers miffed!
" what other kind of receipt could he have been given by the PO? "
Any Post Office in the UK will provide a "Proof of Postage" receipt to the seller when asked. The receipt shows time and date of the shipment and the adress and zip code of the buyer. One can use it in a claim for non delivery against Royal Mail whether domestic or international. It gives the seller some protection against non delivery without having to charge buyers the extortionate rates for "International Signed For".
I stopped selling on ebay many, many, many months ago as the costs, payment system, poor postal systems and aggravations from some buyers were not worth it.
My wife stopped selling other items, other than stamps, on ebay for the rudeness and outrageous demands of buyers.
Unfortunately humans do the selling and the buying and there are many folkies who think they are the "centre of the universe" and demand levels of service that are outwith the control of the seller eg "I want the latest comemmorative stamps on my package". Aye good luck with that one as the local post offices do not stock them.
We have a saying in Old Caledonia:- Patience, perseverence and a wee drop oil and you'll keep your sanity.
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re: Waiting on delivery, sellers miffed!
An open letter to our sellers- along with a request.
Your selling experiences, positive and negative, cannot be argued with- you know what works and what doesn't. I'd like to review what I'm getting from your sharing, and request clarification/correction for me to understand better.
The negative experiences seem to be centered around the buyer as a customer, and you as a vendor. Both are complaining about the other. Perhaps that is the way it has to be in the outside world- but isn't there an alternative?
SOR is a club, made up of like-minded folk pursuing similar interests. The 'business model' is but a part of the whole. I would argue that the friendship model is a better overall fit, especially as we approach the final quarter of our lives. Focus upon the business end alone might be short-sighted and bring less joy and happiness than need be.
When Ken was our SOR secretary, we swapped over $5,000+ cat. val. of items, with joy and fondness without a ripple of discontent. And that was only one of many swaps. Ken is long gone now, but never forgotten.
Each of you guys also contribute to SOR, but it's your focus on the model that grabs my attention. Am I looking at this wrongly, or am I picking up on a need for a phillatelic hug?
Your thoughts would be appreciated. Once delivered, we'll be able to focus upon a solution(s) or on my part to accept the offered correction(s) in thought.
Thanks,
Dan C.
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re: Waiting on delivery, sellers miffed!
"Any Post Office in the UK will provide a "Proof of Postage" receipt to the seller when asked."
Ian, I am curious how your mail system works for first class letters. We just toss them into a slot (unless someone foolishly hands them to a clerk. Thats all I will say on that matter). How would your system know that you handed them say 25 letters at one time. How does it distinguish it on a receipt? I think you can pay for letter tracking here in the US, but that would mean paying extra (probably) for every letter and having a scanable code pasted onto each letter. I cannot imagine our clerks being happy about that, let alone the line in back of you. Even with that, a scanned parcel means nothing if the buyer doesn't receive it. They will still file a claim and I would say ebay MIGHT side with the seller as there would be proof but who knows. Back in the day, pre ebay managed payments, if the one time that ebay sided with the seller, the buyer would then file a claim with PAYPAL and get reimbursed, which happened to me a couple of times when I used to sell books to buyers outside the US.
"Perhaps that is the way it has to be in the outside world- but isn't there an alternative?"
Back when I started selling, buyer and seller would agree to split a loss. No more. You cannot even negotiate that. Its part of the "its all about me" world that now exists. I'm right, you're wrong. End of story. I sold a piece of sheet music to a person that was the violin part of a violin/viola duet. It said so on the music, it said so in my listing. He demanded a refund. Why? Because there was no viola part. He claimed I was being fraudulent in my listing and specifically did not send him the rest of the music. Misdescribed is what he sad, and ebay refunded him. Not only that, I had offered to take back the music and his response was "I tossed it out because I did not think you wanted to have incomplete music" Sure you did. I just shook my head and blacklisted him. It's the cost of doing business. What Ians wife said is true. It comes from no longer teaching people to respect one another, and I see little hope of that changing anytime soon here in the US.
Greg
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re: Waiting on delivery, sellers miffed!
Wow, did not realise I would be upsetting so many folks.
Today Ebay has refunded my purchase, seller says he is saddened by my lack of contact, well sorry but we all agree to the terms of the sales sites.
If and when the item arrives I will pay the total cost immediately.
It will be interesting to see what the delay has been. Other items purchased from the UK subsequently have all arrived.
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re: Waiting on delivery, sellers miffed!
I use regular mail to send all my stamps. Yeah I know it's "illegal" but otherwise non-US buyers will be paying $15+ for a "package". I realize orders will be lost. My terms state this upfront and state if you want tracking, etc. you will need to let me know before you pay and pay for it. My refund rate is less than 1/2%. Maybe I've just been really lucky but had very few horrible buyers.... the worst being one woman in Portugal who gave me negative feedback even though I refunded her the money (and the stamps showed up a month later in my po box as 'undeliverable'). At least eBay allows you to rebut any negatives you might get. I don't like the system but to me it is just part of the cost of doing business. I worked in retail for a few years in the 1980's and 'shrinkage' (loss due to theft, damage, etc) was part of the budget. I have my issues with eBay, but the grass is not greener on the Hipstamp side, at least not for me. Because of them forcing us to use PayPal selling is much more expensive there, and their sync process leaves a lot to be desired. Is the extra work I have to do worth the sales I am getting?
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11 Oct 2023
10:25:42am
re: Waiting on delivery, sellers miffed!
"Wow, did not realise I would be upsetting so many folks."
I don't think any of the respondents to this post have been upset. Certainly not me.
But it is a useful post for giving would-be ebay sellers an insight into the business side of selling on ebay (and other sites), as well as for buyers to see the impact of rules, regulations and policies that sellers have to put up with (not to mention irascible, illogical and downright dishonest buyers).
An excellent piece of advice comes from "Jerryderry":
"'shrinkage' (loss due to theft, damage, etc) was part of the budget."
100% correct. And if you are not prepared to adopt that attitude, selling online in commercial venues will be a frustrating experience (at best).
Roy
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re: Waiting on delivery, sellers miffed!
Coping with shrinkage is easy, coping with shrinking courtesy and civility is much, much, harder!
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10:53:57am
re: Waiting on delivery, sellers miffed!
Are you going to refund the money to the seller when (not if) the stamps arrive sheepshanks? (EDIT: I see in a reply where you say you will! GREAT!!!)
It's buyers like you is the reason I'm getting out of the business too.
Sorry to be so blunt....but you did not handle this correctly and did not give the seller a chance to send shipping info or give at least a partial refund. He still got negative metrics against him even if you receive your package and you refund him.
Mike
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re: Waiting on delivery, sellers miffed!
I quit ebay a long time ago, I did not like the way the site evolved and much of what has been said here is recognisable. It is true that as a seller on ebay you are at the mercy of the buyers. Their negative feedback is a powerful weapon and they know it. Of course many buyers are good, most even, but there are just too much who are out there to screw the seller...
Over here I have had a few problems as well, letters that were lost in the mailing process, but it has been an exception and when it happens I sometimes ask for a bit more patience, send replacements if possible or issue a refund (or give credit, which is easier).
Yes, one reaches many more potential buyers on ebay, compared to our little auction and approval sections, but it comes with a price, and I try to avoid that price when I can. I think I can't complain about the way things are going here on Stamporama!
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re: Waiting on delivery, sellers miffed!
In my opinion there are two side to this issue; sellers’ perspective and buyers’ perspective. It is something that we see quite often in other forums too; sellers who think the eBay playing field is tilted against them and buyers who think the opposite. I think that there are many, many examples that can be given to support both perspectives. I won’t bother to list the various justifications for either perspective but ultimately I am not sure that they matter; we all see life through our own lens.
I think the most important thing to remember is that keep an open mind and be receptive and respectful to other perspectives. This is especially hard right now, in the incredibly divisive times we are living in.
Don
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02:38:38pm
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re: Waiting on delivery, sellers miffed!
Dan C
Stamporama is fine. The sellers sell and the buyers buy.
Of course there are the odd niggles 'cos we are dealing with humans but all in all the systems work and the vast majority of members are happy with their lot.
One must recognise that no system is perfect and what suits one member may not suit any other.
However one of the joys of being a human being is that we like a good bitching session, we love to moan and groan and of course our personal opinion is the only one that matters in the whole universe!
We have a saying in Old Caledonia:- "The older you get, the better you get, unless you’re a banana.”
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02:51:11pm
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re: Waiting on delivery, sellers miffed!
Greg:-
If you want a "proof of postage" receipt then one has to be produced for each letter/package. Yes the clerks would be upset if you handed them 25 to do, as would those behind you in the line.
It is a handy option for new customers. Of course we all get the demanding customer or the customer that sends the hackles on your neck up and the "proof of postage" is a handy option.
YES one must take into account "shrinkage" and budget accordingly.
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re: Waiting on delivery, sellers miffed!
Ian, wow. I cannot imagine that being done at our PO's. I think back to a time when we lived in a different area and I had not yet started printing my own labels. I was selling some coins that were part of an inheritance and to the PO with a small shopping bag of maybe a dozen boxes. When the clerk saw what I was carrying she closed her window and said she was now on break. From then on I began printing my own labels and handing packages to the carrier. Saved me a fortune and still does...... With ebay I don't know if they would accept that as proof, a receipt from the PO. It still has no tracking info. Then again with their "we ship stuff for you" policy of ebays standard envelope there is no real tracking via the post office with that as they use their own system. Likewise their international mailing service. I'll stick to doing it all myself. Besides, 63 cents is no bargain (ebays fee) compared to using your own postage.
Greg
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06:27:44pm
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re: Waiting on delivery, sellers miffed!
Greg
Ebay would not accept the"proof of postage" but it enables the seller to claim from Royal Mail for the loss up to $25 plus postage cost.
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re: Waiting on delivery, sellers miffed!
"The first resolve for an unhappy buyer is always to call the cops rather than contacting the seller."
Dave, I think Ebay has to take a lot of blame for that. I remember a time I also wanted to send a seller a message and then the interview starts "Is this about an item you purchased?" ; "Which one?" and before you know it a case has been opened without the buyers knowledge.
I remember going around in circles and not finding my way out.
Same thing when you want to contact Ebay - they have buried their contact phone so deep, it takes a lot of digging to find it.
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re: Waiting on delivery, sellers miffed!
I disagree, contacting a seller is very straightforward. In "purchase history" there's a drop-down box named "more actions". Click on "contact seller" and your enquiry is specific to that item. There's absolutely no need to open a case unless you want to
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re: Waiting on delivery, sellers miffed!
Ian your Royal Mail is better than what we have when it comes to that. I recall years ago when something got lost being sent to me, the PO telling me the seller had to a) prove what was in the envelope and b) prove its value, both of which is impossible. The sender should have insured it. I doubt things have changed. The receipt, if one could have been generated would have told the PO nothing of that nature. Now we have problems of mail theft, people breaking into the relay boxes where mail carriers pick up their mail rather than going back to the PO when the bag is empty. The response from the PO from what I have been reading is that they are working on it. I can fix their problem right away. Stop daily mail. It can't be robbed if there is nothing in the box. If you want daily mail, get a box at the PO, just as it used to be done eons ago when the PO was part of the General Store. We have no mail delivery here in Cornwall PA. No carriers. Delivered mail comes from a city 9 miles away and they send a truck twice a week. Want daily mail? That comes to the PO boxes at 6:30AM. Convert these huge PO's as we had in the town we lived in before to a couple of thousand PO boxes. What does a person really get in the mail every day that is so important that it needs daily delivery, packages excluded from weekly mail delivery.
Greg
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re: Waiting on delivery, sellers miffed!
Don
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re: Waiting on delivery, sellers miffed!
Nice one Don, probably fits me too well.
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re: Waiting on delivery, sellers miffed!
Envelope arrived today, not as signed for mail, no return address, nothing inside other than the covers and the slip shown in the image below.
There was not a customs form on the envelope, so possibly this is what delayed the mailing. Postage was correct for 62g weight. But not for international signed for.
I have messaged the seller via Ebay as to making payment. Could not find anything on the site that allowed me to so do. Ebay assistant was unable to answer my question of how to make payment.
I also thanked the seller for the envelope stamps.
Edit to add, an order from UK posted 1st. Oct also arrived today, nice envelope stamps but sadly not postmarked.
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re: Waiting on delivery, sellers miffed!
Is that your name & mailing address...? (I typically blur or mask out personal info with online images just to be safe).
Don
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Yes it is Don, but it's available in the members area as well and as anyone can now join without a fee, hardly worth hiding. Though if folks want to send me funds they will be most welcome.
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re: Waiting on delivery, sellers miffed!
"I have messaged the seller via Ebay as to making payment."
I honestly don't think there is a way other than sending money via a source outside ebays managed payments. I am curious as you mentioned the postge was correct for the weight, but not if the letter had to be signed for. Did you sign for it? If so then your Royal Mail works like our mail here. It really doesn't matter how much postage is on the envelope.
Greg
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re: Waiting on delivery, sellers miffed!
Hi Greg, no did not have to sign for the mail, it was in my post box, like usual mail.
I think that Royal Mail International signed for would have been about £7.50 for the 62g weight, so it was not sent the way the seller described.
Not heard anything from the seller as yet.
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re: Waiting on delivery, sellers miffed!
One of the eBay issues is that the time they allow a seller to ship by, sometimes overlaps with the anticipated receiving date they send the buyer. I just had one of those.
I got the dreaded "Item Not Received" message from eBay the day after I shipped an item. They gave me two days to rectify. One of the actions was to message the buyer, so I did. I told them it was just mailed and to give it a week. They responded they would.
Next thing I see is eBay found against me and refunded the buyer from my funds! I message the buyer again and he says that it was received, just like I said it would show up within the week. I saw that they added a "Cases Closed Without Buyer Resolution", which basically means I ignored the issue and eBay had to resolve the case.
There is a button for "Dispute Decision" so I did. My response was that buyer messaged the item WAS received. Surprise! They reversed their decision, took away the defect and put the money back in my account! And this is all about $3!
For instance, the items that I sold over the weekend all say, "Ship by Oct 18" (Wednesday). The message to the buyer says "Estimated between Fri, Oct 20 and Wed, Oct 25". So if I ship on Oct 18, it's hard for it to be received in 2 days, the 20th. Even the long end of it is only a week. I've had shipments take 2 weeks lately.
In the buyer's defense, eBay will message them "Received your item? If not file a claim" pretty quickly. I've gotten messages when I am perfectly happy urging me to request a return! They overservice the buyer and it hurts decent sellers.
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re: Waiting on delivery, sellers miffed!
Hopefully then the seller can get the refund reversed. I have not as yet had any response from them. Strange that the seller says he was given until the 13th, yet they (Ebay) refunded me on the 12th.
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re: Waiting on delivery, sellers miffed!
Just to add, I found the sellers details on the site and emailed the address given, it bounced "chris@naval-covers.co.uk: unable to look up host naval-covers.co.uk: Name or service not known".
I have found a Facebook listing for Chris Hockaday in Plymouth, which I think is one and the same person and have sent a message via that medium.
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02:43:49pm
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re: Waiting on delivery, sellers miffed!
The Philatelic Traders Society
https://www.thepts.net/members.html#!biz ...
lists his email address as
chrishockaday57@gmail.com
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re: Waiting on delivery, sellers miffed!
Webpaper thank you very much, I'll try that email address as all others bounce, I think because there was not a domain name.
Edit:- message sent 30 minutes ago and has not bounced yet. Hopefully I get a reply.
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re: Waiting on delivery, sellers miffed!
Have had a reply and sent money via Paypal. Alls well that ends well.
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re: Waiting on delivery, sellers miffed!
Here’s why we get into these situations.. see the date at top.. eBay is forecasting delivery two days in the past! And if seller just mailed it, the end date is just two days! The package arrived a day after that!
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10:01:16pm
re: Waiting on delivery, sellers miffed!
"Yes it is Don, but it's available in the members area as well and as anyone can now join without a fee, hardly worth hiding. Though if folks want to send me funds they will be most welcome."
...or stamps
Mike
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