Stamporama Discussions: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

General Philatelic/Gen. Discussion : Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

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Harvey

This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
07 Jul 2023
07:13:33pm

This is probably an incredibly stupid question. Someone in a post a little while referred to a used stamp as one having a cancel so maybe it's not a stupid question after all. Or is a precancel considered used if it's on cover or postmarked. And are precancels postmarked? I looked through a few pages of my US album and couldn't find one postmarked precancel. So if I'm trying to find the price of stamp #X and it's precanceled which price do I use?
EDIT: I might have answered my own question. Unitrade lists precancels and the ones I looked up were only given used prices.

"Some people see things that are and ask, Why? Some people dream of things that never were and ask, Why not? Some people have to go to work and don't have time for all that. George Carlin"

1898

07 Jul 2023
08:02:41pm

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

Used!

amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
07 Jul 2023
09:56:35pm

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

1898 is right: used

"Save the USPS, buy stamps; save the hobby, use commemoratives"

juicyheads.com/link.php?PLJZJP

Harvey

This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
07 Jul 2023
10:01:49pm

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

I did a bit more study of Unitrade looking at precancels. There actually are quite a few of them with both used and mint prices so this is not as simple as I thought!! Several have a reasonably high mint value!! I can't say anything about US precancels because Scott's Specialized totally ignores them! They seem to do everything else but doesn't seem to mention precancels at all! So I still don't know the answer to my question. Canada list mint and used for many of them but not for others. Seems a bit odd!!
I really like precancels since they show some postal history. I lately replaced most of my used US with mint but left the precancels alone. Of course mostly definitives, and a few Christmas stamps, were the only stamps that were precanceled - I think!!
EDIT: In the front of The Unitrade there's a page on precancels showing 33 different styles from 1888 to 1977 when it seems like they disappeared from use. Does anyone know if and when the US discontinued their use? Unitrade issued a book on precancels, did anyone do the same for the US? I know there are collectors out there since I've seen them offered on SOR and they seem to sell!

"Some people see things that are and ask, Why? Some people dream of things that never were and ask, Why not? Some people have to go to work and don't have time for all that. George Carlin"

amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
07 Jul 2023
10:41:47pm

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

the US no longer prints precancelled stamps; although they have stamps acting as if they were precancelled stamps: these are nonprofit, presorted, and more.

there is a precancelled society, and they list all the precancels and the stamps to which they are applied. US precancels were done both by the BEP and by local offices; BEP just added a step after printing the stamps.

"Save the USPS, buy stamps; save the hobby, use commemoratives"

juicyheads.com/link.php?PLJZJP

Brechinite

08 Jul 2023
05:27:19am
Auctions - Approvals

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

You will find that pre-cancels with gum are considered mint, without gum they are considered used.

Pre-cancels on piece are used.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z34r8N8X ...

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"Gonnae no dae that!..........Just gonnae no!"

angore

Al
Collector, Moderator
08 Jul 2023
05:39:39am

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

Another way to say it....the stamp cannot be reused.

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"Stamp Collecting is a many splendored thing"

Harvey

This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
08 Jul 2023
11:24:32am

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

I was thinking about a possible "fun collection", maybe pick one stamp and try to find one precancel of this stamp for each state. I'll have to check my precancels and try to find a stamp with lots of precancels represented already. Has anyone tried this?
EDIT: I've been thinking that sticking to one stamp only would be very difficult. So I'm going to aim for one for each state and see how that goes. I'll go through my US collection, I've probably got quite a few already! I know I have quite a few from New York and Chicago so that's two states done for sure. My problem is that a lot are marked with the city so a little bit of research might be needed!! Should be a fun addition to my US collection! I'm going to try to get most of them here rather than E-Bay!!
EDIT #2 I just checked my album and I only have 14 / 50. I have a long way to go!! If someone were to post a book with a whole bunch of precancels in it I will do my best to buy the ones I need. I'm pretty sure I've seen a book like that within the last few months.

"Some people see things that are and ask, Why? Some people dream of things that never were and ask, Why not? Some people have to go to work and don't have time for all that. George Carlin"

michael78651

08 Jul 2023
03:23:15pm

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

"And are precancels postmarked?"

Some get a postal cancel. According to the Precancel Stamp Society (PSS), a pre-canceled stamp that has a postal cancellation as well loses 90% of its catalog value.

Many pre-cancels also have an overprint from the company that used them. Such stamps also are highly discounted.

The PSS catalog values consider all pre-cancels to be used, and with four margins, but slightly off-center. Values of most US precanceled single stamps is 20 cents. Values are also provided for coil pairs (usually 2x the single value, and 4x for line pairs), and blocks of four for sheet stamps (usually 4x single value). There are exceptions based on certain printing types.

Pre-cancels prior to August 1967 were illegal to possess with gum. Dealers washed the gum off of such stamps to avoid the "appearance" of violating postal regulations. MNH precancels issued prior to August 1967 can command large premiums. The PSS catalog does not value pre-cancels in this condition.

Errors of printing the pre-cancels are mostly common. The PSS catalog only lists those that are uncommon.

Brechinite

08 Jul 2023
05:55:44pm
Auctions - Approvals

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

Anyone who has a Steiner Pages disc or a subscription with Steiner will know that there are sections in the USA, Belgium, France etc that one can download album pages for Pre-cancels.

I accquired a Steiner disc several years ago as part of a mixed box at auction and it has been extremely useful.

Now if I could only find one that could produce album pages for GB Perfins!

"Gonnae no dae that!..........Just gonnae no!"

Harvey

This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
08 Jul 2023
05:59:24pm

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

Thanks Ian but I think I'm going to keep it simple. Just put the precancels alongside the regular stamp and put the state's name above it - just keep it all together as it is now.

"Some people see things that are and ask, Why? Some people dream of things that never were and ask, Why not? Some people have to go to work and don't have time for all that. George Carlin"

Brechinite

08 Jul 2023
07:29:46pm
Auctions - Approvals

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

Harvey just be careful as once you start Pre-cancels or Perfins the addiction soon takes hold!!

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"Gonnae no dae that!..........Just gonnae no!"

Harvey

This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
08 Jul 2023
07:35:54pm

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

I certainly know of which you speak!!! I was going to collect duck stamps to match my US collection. I was going to get one per state, one per province and one each for Federal Canada and Quebec. I just picked up 2 Quebec and 5 Federal from an SOR member. It is very hard not to get carried away with those gorgeous duck stamps! Will the same thing happen with precancels? GOK!!!

"Some people see things that are and ask, Why? Some people dream of things that never were and ask, Why not? Some people have to go to work and don't have time for all that. George Carlin"

Betyar68

09 Jul 2023
12:20:16pm

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

I thought it would be a no-brainer to have precancels of all 50 states. To my dismay, I only have 22 at first glance. Interesting idea, though. If anyone is a collector of precancel, send me a note. Would be happy to trade what I have for other stuff I really collect.

Harvey

This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
09 Jul 2023
01:34:27pm

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

I have a very extensive US collection but I do not accumulate spares. I wonder how many great precancels I've passed on to others! I really did expect to find more than 14 though. I bet some are going to be much harder to find than others though. I'm really going to keep my eyes open when looking through books from now on and I'm keeping my list next to the computer. I wonder how long it will take!! Because of shipping charges on E-Bay I think I'll just keep my eyes open here. It could be a problem though if I've inspired others to try the same thing!

"Some people see things that are and ask, Why? Some people dream of things that never were and ask, Why not? Some people have to go to work and don't have time for all that. George Carlin"

Betyar68

09 Jul 2023
01:38:31pm

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

i suspect alaska and hawaii to be very difficult

Harvey

This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
10 Jul 2023
02:35:51pm

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

Now up to 19 / 51 (forgot about DC) thanks to the book of Precancels just posted. Of course the book came up while I was away from the computer and I missed a few states. I'm sure there'll be other chances, so no biggie!!!!

"Some people see things that are and ask, Why? Some people dream of things that never were and ask, Why not? Some people have to go to work and don't have time for all that. George Carlin"

dell4c

10 Jul 2023
02:45:48pm
Approvals

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

Not that hard to fill in all the bureau precancels for a single stamp - depending onthe stamp you choose Happy

Image Not Found

But it is addicative Happy

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michael78651

10 Jul 2023
02:51:12pm

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

Nice!

michael78651

10 Jul 2023
02:52:02pm

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

"i suspect alaska and hawaii to be very difficult"

And other US territory and administrative areas pre WWII as well.

Harvey

This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
10 Jul 2023
03:33:42pm

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

Fantastic collection but I'm going to keep mine very simple! I just intend this to be a fun side collection and am going to try to keep it sensible. My US and Canada collections are very serious ones and finding those few affordable (the definition of "affordable" has vastly changed over the years and now means "under $1000") stamps I am missing is hard enough. I've also started keeping my eyes open for one duck stamp per state and province as well, hopefully another fun side collection!

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"Some people see things that are and ask, Why? Some people dream of things that never were and ask, Why not? Some people have to go to work and don't have time for all that. George Carlin"

1898

10 Jul 2023
05:29:20pm

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

I have someplace (packed away already) "Schofield Barracks Hawaii" precancel, on Wash/Franklin stamps.

1898

Harvey

This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
10 Jul 2023
05:46:32pm

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

Thanks to a very helpful SOR member I am now up to 31/51 and even have a Hawaii on the way. I also seem to remember that I have a Puerto Rico one (San Juan / P R ) on a US stamp with my Puerto Rico collection. I'll have to keep my eyes open for other US protectorates. Things are probably going to slow down from here!!

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"Some people see things that are and ask, Why? Some people dream of things that never were and ask, Why not? Some people have to go to work and don't have time for all that. George Carlin"

Harvey

This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
11 Jul 2023
10:48:11pm

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

I was just looking through my Canada album and noticed I have some really nice early precancels. Something else to keep my eyes open for!! Canada started doing bar precancels back as far as 1888 and started doing towns (58 have been found) at about the same time! Does anyone out there collect that kind of stuff! I had no idea that Unitrade listed them by style (A to Y for bars and 1 to 10 for bars and name) and also gives a number and a price. I have a 118XX even though it's only listed at $0.50! But that doesn't matter, it's something else to watch out for!! FUN!!

"Some people see things that are and ask, Why? Some people dream of things that never were and ask, Why not? Some people have to go to work and don't have time for all that. George Carlin"

Brechinite

12 Jul 2023
05:22:06am
Auctions - Approvals

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

Harvey

Is this becoming addictive?

I hate to say this "but I told you so"

Welcome to the club!

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"Gonnae no dae that!..........Just gonnae no!"

Harvey

This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
12 Jul 2023
08:01:47am

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

Ian The US material is not really becoming addictive. When I get the US one/state I'll probably stop. Canada has always been my main passion and I might go a bit further with that - at least there are Scott numbers. I also didn't really think I had any! But in the long run you're right!!

"Some people see things that are and ask, Why? Some people dream of things that never were and ask, Why not? Some people have to go to work and don't have time for all that. George Carlin"

1898

12 Jul 2023
09:14:09am

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

The Post Office Department at Ottawa in 1903 had electrotypes made up, are any of these still exist, does anyone have a photo/scan, of the right and proper electros for any city in Canada, either the complete 100 electro or a portion there of?

1898

BenFranklin1902

Tom in Exton, PA
13 Jul 2023
04:48:11pm

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

I collect precancels of US Scott 300 (my beloved Ben Franklin stamp).

Going for all cities.. now the fun part.. find them on cover! Considering these were used on business mail and ads.. aka junk mail.. very hard to find!

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michael78651

14 Jul 2023
10:22:17am

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

I have found several pre-cancels pre-Washington-Franklin issues. Many are very well done. I made a special blank page for these using a pre-cancel template that Steiner provides.

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smaier

Sally
14 Jul 2023
11:01:38am

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

@michael78651 - would you mind posting a photo of your special blank page?

michael78651

14 Jul 2023
10:30:05pm

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

Sally, I'll put a picture up for you as soon as I can.

1898

14 Jul 2023
11:44:21pm

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

Sorry I might be extra dense tonight but I don't know what a pre-cancel template is, I hope someone scans one and puts it up!

1898

michael78651

15 Jul 2023
12:01:44am

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

I was talking about a simple album page.

smaier

Sally
15 Jul 2023
11:22:55am

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

No rush Michael. I am always looking for ideas for page designs and enjoy seeing examples of pages that other collectors have created

Brechinite

15 Jul 2023
02:37:33pm
Auctions - Approvals

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

Here's a list of some sites that have free downloads for pages (not just for pre-cancels):-

https://www.thestampweb.com/albums/free- ...

https://thestampforum.boards.net/thread/ ... (This is an old list so some links from this site do not connect)

http://www.mostlyclassics.net/album_pag ...

https://www.precancels.com/free-albums/

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Harvey

This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
19 Jul 2023
06:00:06pm

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

I am now up to 32 / 51 since I found one I didn't have with my postage dues. I also got a gift in the mail today from a member of a great Canal Zone precancel. I already had one from Puerto Rico so that's two of the protectorates taken care of. I wonder which of the other ex or current US protectorates issued precancels, preferably on US stamps, but it doesn't matter that much. My Puerto Rico one is on a US stamp but the one I gratefully received today was on a Canal Zone stamp so it really makes no difference to me. I expect to eventually find Cuba, Philippines, DWI (in today's countries), Ryukyu Islands, but somehow I don't expect to get anywhere with the Confederate States. Big Grin

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"Some people see things that are and ask, Why? Some people dream of things that never were and ask, Why not? Some people have to go to work and don't have time for all that. George Carlin"

cdj1122

Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
20 Jul 2023
11:49:07am

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

''... Sorry I might be extra dense tonight but I don't know what a pre-cancel template is, I hope someone scans one and puts it up!...

I'll try to explain. A pre-cancel template is a special template, possibly home made, created to assist in laying out a blank page for pre-canceled stamps

".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "

1898

20 Jul 2023
01:50:01pm

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

Thank you.

Have been waiting as one of the posters was going to make a scan, but guess that's just water over the dam now.

Again thank you.

1898

michael78651

20 Jul 2023
11:15:51pm

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

Harvey, per the Pre-cancel Stamp Society, there are precancels for the following US Territories:

- Puerto Rico
- Samoa
- American Samoa
- Canal Zone
- Guam
- Marshall Islands*
- Caroline Islands
- Mariana Islands*
- Palau
- Canton Island, Phoenix Group
- American Virgin Islands

There also is a United Nations, New York precancel.

For the territories there are a total of 35 towns and 71 pre-cancel types.

* also have military post (MP, FM) pre-cancels

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michael78651

20 Jul 2023
11:20:51pm

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

My apologies. I haven't had the time to scan a copy of the Steiner template. All in the past 2 weeks: House AC went out, Truck broke down (twice), Fiancee was having issues with her foreign job, mother needs care and issues with her health care benefits, and I need a psychiatrist.

angore

Al
Collector, Moderator
21 Jul 2023
07:01:00am

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

I may be able to help on Steiner / Album Easy. What is needed?

"Stamp Collecting is a many splendored thing"

amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
21 Jul 2023
04:48:48pm

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

"and I need a psychiatrist"

where's Dan when you need him?

"Save the USPS, buy stamps; save the hobby, use commemoratives"

juicyheads.com/link.php?PLJZJP

Harvey

This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
21 Jul 2023
06:22:03pm

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

Thanks for the list Michael, there are some of those I wouldn't have even thought of! I'm a bit surprised there is nothing from the Philippines, unless one of those areas I know nothing about is one of the Philippine islands. I am fairly knowledgeable about geography, but not all of it!! Thanks again, I'll know what to watch out for now!!

"Some people see things that are and ask, Why? Some people dream of things that never were and ask, Why not? Some people have to go to work and don't have time for all that. George Carlin"

michael78651

21 Jul 2023
09:14:41pm

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

Image Not Found

As promised, here is the pre-cancel template from the Steiner pages. The template permits editing of the title and other information at the top of the page. Below is simply a bunch of blank boxes on which to mount the stamps. Yes, it's that simple.

How I use this page is when I get another precancel from this city, I place it in Scott order, moving all the stamps with higher catalog numbers one space to the right.

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cdj1122

Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
21 Jul 2023
09:33:40pm

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

t"... I am fairly knowledgeable about geography, but not all of it!! ..."

I never visited the American Virgin Islands, or the British either, the rest I have covered easily, some a few times.
What Canton or Palau would need pre-cancels for is a puzzlement. As a matter of fact, I do not recall seeing a building, or anything that resembled a post office on most of the small islands.

".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "

smaier

Sally
21 Jul 2023
10:13:28pm

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

@michael78651: Thank you for posting the example page and explaining how you arrange/move the stamps. It looks great and am sure it works well for you since you use mounts.

Appreciate you taking the time to share this. Hope this next week goes better for you.

michael78651

21 Jul 2023
10:40:00pm

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

"Hope this next week goes better for you."

Thanks. On Monday I have a dentist appointment. I guess if I get out of there with all my teeth, that's a good start!

Harvey

This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
25 Jul 2023
11:39:46am

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

Back to precancels! I picked this lot of precancels up on E-bay yesterday because there were about a dozen states there I didn't have and two red ones. Other colors may be fairly common but I've never seen them before. So if reds and blacks exist, how about other colors? I know the image is too small to read the states but you can see there are two red ones. I also now have a ready made collection for one stamp if I decide to continue with it. I probably won't since I find that stamp a bit boring!!
Edit: If for some reason you "need" to see the states just re-save the image and make it larger and clearer! Thanks to this lot I only need 11 / 51 (counting DC but not the protectorates) and then that collection is done unless I run into something unusual like a colour except black or red! I think the protectorates will take a while since I only have the Canal Zone and Puerto Rico.
Image Not Found

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"Some people see things that are and ask, Why? Some people dream of things that never were and ask, Why not? Some people have to go to work and don't have time for all that. George Carlin"

Harvey

This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
26 Jul 2023
03:56:04pm

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

I noticed these the other day, they're certainly a bit different!!
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/295834925228
I'm also a bit curious about something. How much should I really care about condition of the basic stamp if I'm mainly interested in it for the precancel? I don't think precancels have much value anyway, but maybe some do. I know I'm having a lot of trouble finding Alaska and Mel gave me the only Hawaii I've seen so maybe the rarer ones are a bit more pricey. If I really start to get hooked on this stuff I guess I'll have to locate a catalog. Unitrade does Canadian precancels but I don't know who would cover the US.

"Some people see things that are and ask, Why? Some people dream of things that never were and ask, Why not? Some people have to go to work and don't have time for all that. George Carlin"

1898

26 Jul 2023
05:25:17pm

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

@Harvey

I have the "Handbook on Bureau and Local Precancels, Suggestions and Information for Collectors" my copy is the 1925 edition which works for me.

There must be later versions or maybe there are other publications.

1898

1898

27 Jul 2023
09:20:17am

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

@Harvey

If you are thinking not to be concerned with the rest of the stamp, but only interested in the precancel, you could cut off the area without the precancel. This would save you space in your album! (just kidding)

1898

Harvey

This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
28 Jul 2023
03:31:27pm

re: Is a pre-cancel already considered to be used?

"If you are thinking not to be concerned with the rest of the stamp, but only interested in the precancel, you could cut off the area without the precancel. This would save you space in your album! (just kidding)"

Actually that's not that strange a suggestion! It's not something I would want to do but if someone had a large map of the US they could cut the precancel part out of the stamp and put it on the map. Using the entire stamp might take up too much room. I couldn't cut up the stamp myself, but precancels, unless they are from smaller cities or towns, are not that terribly expensive. A collection of state capitals might be fun as well, but I think I'll stick with one/state unless I run into unusual colours or forms!

"Some people see things that are and ask, Why? Some people dream of things that never were and ask, Why not? Some people have to go to work and don't have time for all that. George Carlin"

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