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General Philatelic/Identify This? : Italy 1861 - OK or fake?

 

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Tobbe656
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28 Jun 2023
10:05:31am

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I found this Italian stamp in some auction material that I bought. I don´t collect Italy but it seems liks it could be Michel 5a.
I saw a notice about forgeries so I just don´t know.
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DaveSheridan
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28 Jun 2023
10:28:16am
re: Italy 1861 - OK or fake?

The value is in grana, so this is Neapolitan States not Italy. That said, I don't know about forgeries.

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1898

28 Jun 2023
10:43:50am
re: Italy 1861 - OK or fake?

@Tobbe656

I do not collect Neapolitan States, and do not have any experence with them. I looked on a few sites and compared your stamp with otherr images on the sites, you stamp appears to be the same. So guessing (my guess) your stamp is not a fake.

Hope this helps in some small way.

1898


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philb
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28 Jun 2023
10:56:57am

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re: Italy 1861 - OK or fake?

i am far from being an expert on anything..but being that it is an embossed stamp ...good chance its the real thing.

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roy
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28 Jun 2023
10:58:35am
re: Italy 1861 - OK or fake?

"The value is in grana, so this is Neapolitan States not Italy"


But Michel lists it under Italy, the first set. Identified as "Former Neapolitan Kingdom".

Agreed, Michel 5a and looks good to me.

Roy
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CDZ1909

29 Jun 2023
02:38:05am
re: Italy 1861 - OK or fake?

Honestly, it is hard to say from just the scan. The embossing per se does not guarantee that it is an original, as there are many old and newer fakes around that copy this characteristic as well. As far as I can tell from the scan, the shape of the embossed head indicates that it is at least not a crude fake. It could still be one of the sophisticated contemporary fakes (that could be an even better find than the original in terms of CV).

But there are other factors to consider: The size of the stamp and especially the decorations in the corners. If it is indeed real, there are several color shades to consider (that impact value).

Sorry, if I cannot give you a definitive answer but I find early Italy is often a rather difficult era to identify and I am not that familiar with the specialized literature myself.

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Tobbe656
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29 Jun 2023
04:55:27am

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re: Italy 1861 - OK or fake?

Thank you everyone for your input!

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HungaryForStamps
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30 Jun 2023
08:08:16pm
re: Italy 1861 - OK or fake?

This could be a forgery. Its hard to tell from the image.

There was one plate for the 5 Grana.

From the invaluable tome, "Distinguishing Characteristics of Classic Stamps" the
characteristics of the genuine 5 Grana are:

A. "The first two (vertical) shading lines of the lower right corner section (under the oval and closest to the frame that touches the right end of the oval) are very close to each other" whereas on the forgery the lines are evenly spaced.

- your stamp seems to have evenly spaced lines.

B. "The lower frame line of the upper left cross ornament is prolonged" meaning it extends into the white vertical channel a little bit.

- I don't see that on your stamp.

C. 'The last vertical bar of the letter "N" in "CINQUE" slants to the right.'

- Your stamp appears to have a slanting "N" but is not foreshortened as shown in the, albeit, drawn image in the book. I'm not sure. Compare to an image on the web of the genuine article.

D. "There is a period (a red dot) in the left upper corner of the lower frame showing the denomination of value" that is, the rectangular box containing the "CINQUE GRANA".

- I don't see a dot in the upper left corner, but you will have to examine closely.

Postal forgeries of the 5 Grana are missing A and B and the period (dot) does not appear as in D.

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Tobbe656

28 Jun 2023
10:05:31am

Approvals

I found this Italian stamp in some auction material that I bought. I don´t collect Italy but it seems liks it could be Michel 5a.
I saw a notice about forgeries so I just don´t know.
Image Not FoundImage Not Found

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Members Picture
DaveSheridan

28 Jun 2023
10:28:16am

re: Italy 1861 - OK or fake?

The value is in grana, so this is Neapolitan States not Italy. That said, I don't know about forgeries.

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1898

28 Jun 2023
10:43:50am

re: Italy 1861 - OK or fake?

@Tobbe656

I do not collect Neapolitan States, and do not have any experence with them. I looked on a few sites and compared your stamp with otherr images on the sites, you stamp appears to be the same. So guessing (my guess) your stamp is not a fake.

Hope this helps in some small way.

1898


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this post
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philb

28 Jun 2023
10:56:57am

Auctions

re: Italy 1861 - OK or fake?

i am far from being an expert on anything..but being that it is an embossed stamp ...good chance its the real thing.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"And every hair is measured like every grain of sand"

BuckaCover.com - 80,000 covers priced 60c to $1.50 - Easy browsing 500 categories
28 Jun 2023
10:58:35am

re: Italy 1861 - OK or fake?

"The value is in grana, so this is Neapolitan States not Italy"


But Michel lists it under Italy, the first set. Identified as "Former Neapolitan Kingdom".

Agreed, Michel 5a and looks good to me.

Roy
Like
Login to Like
this post

"BuckaCover.com - Since 2003 - Over One million covers sold - What have you been missing?"

www.Buckacover.com
CDZ1909

29 Jun 2023
02:38:05am

re: Italy 1861 - OK or fake?

Honestly, it is hard to say from just the scan. The embossing per se does not guarantee that it is an original, as there are many old and newer fakes around that copy this characteristic as well. As far as I can tell from the scan, the shape of the embossed head indicates that it is at least not a crude fake. It could still be one of the sophisticated contemporary fakes (that could be an even better find than the original in terms of CV).

But there are other factors to consider: The size of the stamp and especially the decorations in the corners. If it is indeed real, there are several color shades to consider (that impact value).

Sorry, if I cannot give you a definitive answer but I find early Italy is often a rather difficult era to identify and I am not that familiar with the specialized literature myself.

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
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Members Picture
Tobbe656

29 Jun 2023
04:55:27am

Approvals

re: Italy 1861 - OK or fake?

Thank you everyone for your input!

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
HungaryForStamps

30 Jun 2023
08:08:16pm

re: Italy 1861 - OK or fake?

This could be a forgery. Its hard to tell from the image.

There was one plate for the 5 Grana.

From the invaluable tome, "Distinguishing Characteristics of Classic Stamps" the
characteristics of the genuine 5 Grana are:

A. "The first two (vertical) shading lines of the lower right corner section (under the oval and closest to the frame that touches the right end of the oval) are very close to each other" whereas on the forgery the lines are evenly spaced.

- your stamp seems to have evenly spaced lines.

B. "The lower frame line of the upper left cross ornament is prolonged" meaning it extends into the white vertical channel a little bit.

- I don't see that on your stamp.

C. 'The last vertical bar of the letter "N" in "CINQUE" slants to the right.'

- Your stamp appears to have a slanting "N" but is not foreshortened as shown in the, albeit, drawn image in the book. I'm not sure. Compare to an image on the web of the genuine article.

D. "There is a period (a red dot) in the left upper corner of the lower frame showing the denomination of value" that is, the rectangular box containing the "CINQUE GRANA".

- I don't see a dot in the upper left corner, but you will have to examine closely.

Postal forgeries of the 5 Grana are missing A and B and the period (dot) does not appear as in D.

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