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Sales, Swaps, Auction & Approvals/Approvals Disc. : Anybody monitoring the approval books?

 

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StampCollector
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30 Oct 2022
10:27:31am
There's a new book that gives the word redundance a new meaning.
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Jansimon
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collector, seller, MT member

30 Oct 2022
10:37:31am

Approvals
re: Anybody monitoring the approval books?

Better bring this directly to the auctioneers: Randy Kerr, David Teisler and Antonio Len-Rios and give as much details as possible about this. They have the authority to put the book on hold, if needed.

Jan-Simon

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

30 Oct 2022
11:41:22am
re: Anybody monitoring the approval books?

I looked at the book; it has duplication, with up to 5 copies of a single stamp, but most of those with SON cancels. There's a total of 2 pages of 16 with the heavier duplication, which, to me, seems acceptable.

David


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Harvey
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!

30 Oct 2022
12:46:07pm
re: Anybody monitoring the approval books?

I saw the book and it looked to me that the person was re-showing several stamps because of the cancellations. The books that should be complained about are the ones that show several stamps that are the same but are either mint or CTO. Does the same rule apply to auctions as well? It is fairly common to see multiple repetitions of stamps in the auction setting. But at least there they are usually together which allows you to pick a copy with better centering, perfs, etc. Quite often in books they are on random pages and if you are a bit "out of it" at the time you might end up buying two identical stamps. I know it sounds like a stupid mistake but I've almost done it a couple times!!Blushing

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StampCollector
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30 Oct 2022
12:52:29pm
re: Anybody monitoring the approval books?

I believe that we are bending the rules here, if you can have 10 copies of the same stamp because the cancellations are different then you can have as many as you want since there are no two cancellations alike.

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30 Oct 2022
01:54:43pm
re: Anybody monitoring the approval books?

Many people collect town cancels, machine cancels, date cancels, fancy cancels, pre cancels, etc. I have over a dozen stocksheets each of 3 cent banknotes, 210's, 213's, and 2 cent reds. Where do you draw the line? I had an approval book of letter and number cancels - full and partial pages of each letter or number 0 are you saying this is not acceptable? The book came close to selling out so there is demand.

If there is no place for common sense in "bending the rules" you may end up with a lot less members due to lack of being able to list popular material and lack of being able to find things they are looking for. If a book that in your opinion bends the rules a bit then don't go back to it - but don't deprive other members of viewing material that may be of interest to them.

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rrraphy
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Retired Consultant APS#186030

30 Oct 2022
07:06:47pm
re: Anybody monitoring the approval books?

"There's a total of 2 pages of 16 with the heavier duplication, which, to me, seems acceptable."


So rules are just a pretense? Are 3 pages two much, but 2 ok? Maybe rather than remove the book, communicate with the seller who probably does not know we have rules, or thinks they don't apply to them!

"you may end up with a lot less members due to lack of being able to list popular material and lack of being able to find things they are looking for."


Again stated with NO EVIDENCE, as an argument for relaxing Approval Book standards:

If featuring special cancelations, then maybe it should be stated under the stamp! Otherwise, it is what it is!

Seems to me that anything even floor droppings has a tendency to sell here, so why have any rules at all? Maybe if we abolish all rules we shall get more people selling and buying, which is the only goal?? Approvals are a big success already, and truly unique to StampoRama. Where else can you pick up the low cost items that you want for 5c-10c each! and conveniently due to our great software. Do we really care about esthetics or order?!




rrr...

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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

30 Oct 2022
08:19:26pm
re: Anybody monitoring the approval books?

Ralph

"Seems to me that anything even floor droppings has a tendency to sell here, so why have any rules at all? Maybe if we abolish all rules we shall get more people selling and buying, which is the only goal??"



i'd like to keep some rules, but can't argue with your observations of what sell

" Where else can you pick up the low cost items that you want for 5c-10c each! and conveniently due to our great software. Do we really care about esthetics or order?!"



Aesthetically, the book being discussed is beautifully displayed, with meticulous right angles.

and, for those discussing the bending of rules, please note the rule that specifically addresses multiples:

"C21. Multiple copies of an item are limited to three, except for offerings such as: collectible cancellation types, pre-cancels, color shades, etc., and must be placed together on the same page.
"



Only the 15F stamp significantly exceeds this, and copies all have legible cancels, many SONs.

For those of you who suffer when others are permitted to bend the rules, I urge you to avoid pages 4 and 5 of this book. But don't let that interfere with your enjoyment of the other beautifully mounted stamps and numbers on the other 14 pages of this booklet.

David

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30 Oct 2022
09:17:02pm
re: Anybody monitoring the approval books?

In my opinion rule C21 was broken twice, once for putting too many copies of the same stamp, the other....read the last paragraph of the rule, putting the same stamps in two different pages.
I rest my case.

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mitoneu

08 Nov 2022
05:42:06pm
re: Anybody monitoring the approval books?

No one is forced to look at what he doesn´t like. On the other hand, no one should enforce his standards to others.
As a more or less frequent user of approvals, I just look up to what I like, and discard the books from sellers that I dislike.
Its simple like this!
I agree compleetly with rraphy!

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08 Nov 2022
05:58:53pm
re: Anybody monitoring the approval books?

"C21. Multiple copies of an item are limited to three, except for offerings such as: collectible cancellation types, pre-cancels, color shades, etc., and must be placed together on the same page."

This rule makes no sense - followed to the letter all copies of US #210 would have to be on the same page whether they had a red cancel, a star cancel, a readable RPO cancel or a cork blob.

The basic color of a common stamp may catalog 25 cents while a scarce color variation might catalog $25.00.

Local and bureau precancels can have significant pricing level differences.

It is rules like this that prevent dealers from offering more items of interest to the advanced collector and make approval books which follow all the rules about as interesting as the old mystery bags sold by stamps companies in the 50's when I was a kid.

Just my 2 cents



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Harvey
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!

08 Nov 2022
06:17:28pm
re: Anybody monitoring the approval books?

I don't sell so this suggestion might not be possible. I wonder if the page could be set up where at the top it might say something like "price $0.40 - $10" and then put next to several items on the page a short description and use different prices for several objects. That way similar objects of varying prices could be kept together. All you'd need to do is have a small piece of paper containing a description next to each stamp. It sounds like a sensible idea but it probably takes a bit more work!

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rrraphy
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Retired Consultant APS#186030

08 Nov 2022
11:58:44pm
re: Anybody monitoring the approval books?

"It is rules like this that prevent dealers from offering more items of interest to the advanced collector "


Once more we throw EXCUSES with NO EVIDENCE!

On the other hand it seems that the best outlook for Approvals now is to remove ALL rules (since they are not enforced) and let it be what it wants.
Why not?
Ian, I agree with you now, let the market be the judge! (but watch our membership numbers).


rrr...

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09 Nov 2022
06:58:16am
re: Anybody monitoring the approval books?

It is not an EXCUSE - it is COMMON SENSE. I am attempting to break down a French collection dating back to the 40's or early 50's and using the Yvert catalog. Many common stamps (NOT the earlies) have 3 to 6 or 8 identified color variations which if the identifications are correct (and they appear to be) are all worth different values.

I quit Ebay many years ago or the solution would be easy, but I am not going to place them on auction here or on Hip because of the prevalence of one bid results here and the number of non-payers on Hip.

OK - it is really just my OPINION just as your statement is your OPINION. It's what makes the world go around and I can accept that - but the rules stifle MY interest in spending a lot of time putting good books together - your mileage may vary.

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Harvey
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!

09 Nov 2022
08:01:25am
re: Anybody monitoring the approval books?

I still don't see the problem with setting up a page as I mentioned before - having several similar stamps with different quoted prices and descriptions. I really don't see that as a problem and it would still cut out the people who are offering several identical stamps. I really don't even see that as a big deal as long as the stamps are all shown together so we can compare copies. Spreading them around is really annoying and usually makes me close the book. But if someone has a few of a rather pricey stamps in the same place we can just pick the one we prefer. Seems OK to me but I know some of you don't agree. But if the stamps are together, what's the big deal? It's done with auctions all the time, I've seen as many as 5 or 6 together.

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sheepshanks
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09 Nov 2022
09:31:29am
re: Anybody monitoring the approval books?

You can not have different priced items on the same page without a huge change in the programming, each "buy" button would have to be linked to an individual price.
Simple way is to put each on a separate page at it's own price. If this results in only a couple of items per page and below the stamp minimum, request a variation from the mods (not the rockers!).
If they are more valuable stamps put them in the auction, buyers can always copy the image and use a program (like Irfanview) to stitch the images horizontally or vertically for comparison. However as scanners do not always show exact colours, and our eyes see differently, catalogue numbers and a good description will help.

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Bobstamp
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09 Nov 2022
02:47:10pm
re: Anybody monitoring the approval books?

The problem of having variously priced approval stamps on individual pages is obvious, but I'm failing to understand another aspect of this discussion, concerning the auction sales vs. approval sales.

From the viewpoint of the seller, what's the difference between a Buy-It-Now price, minimum auction bids, and individually priced approval stamps?

I assume that when sellers post a Buy-It-Now price in addition to a minimum-bid amount in the auction, they are willing to accept the Buy-It-Now price in lieu of bids, but hope it will fetch a higher price if bidding happens.

If a seller offers a stamp on approval, he or she is obviously willing to accept the posted price.

I've been buying stamps in on-line auctions, often opting for the Buy-It-Now option, and through on snail-mail approvals, for at least the last 30 years (although I'm not sure when Buy-It-Now became a routine function of auctions). If the price of a Buy-It-Now stamp or cover seems reasonable, I'll buy it. If a desirable auction item, one without a "Buy It Now" option, has received bids, I'll bid the maximum amount that I'm willing to pay, accepting that I may be outbid.

In short, if a Stamporama seller is concerned about getting the price he wants, why not just put it in the auction with the minimum bid he'll accept or a Buy-It-Now price that he or she will accept?

Bob


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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

09 Nov 2022
03:06:32pm
re: Anybody monitoring the approval books?

Bob,

the big difference is that approvals remain in play, theoretically at least, for lots longer than the max 14 days accorded auctions.

I found approvals more tiresome to prepare, so I don't, but many people enjoy it and have had great success with them.

But all your reasoning is sound on auctions.

David

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StampCollector

30 Oct 2022
10:27:31am

There's a new book that gives the word redundance a new meaning.

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Jansimon

collector, seller, MT member
30 Oct 2022
10:37:31am

Approvals

re: Anybody monitoring the approval books?

Better bring this directly to the auctioneers: Randy Kerr, David Teisler and Antonio Len-Rios and give as much details as possible about this. They have the authority to put the book on hold, if needed.

Jan-Simon

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
30 Oct 2022
11:41:22am

re: Anybody monitoring the approval books?

I looked at the book; it has duplication, with up to 5 copies of a single stamp, but most of those with SON cancels. There's a total of 2 pages of 16 with the heavier duplication, which, to me, seems acceptable.

David


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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
30 Oct 2022
12:46:07pm

re: Anybody monitoring the approval books?

I saw the book and it looked to me that the person was re-showing several stamps because of the cancellations. The books that should be complained about are the ones that show several stamps that are the same but are either mint or CTO. Does the same rule apply to auctions as well? It is fairly common to see multiple repetitions of stamps in the auction setting. But at least there they are usually together which allows you to pick a copy with better centering, perfs, etc. Quite often in books they are on random pages and if you are a bit "out of it" at the time you might end up buying two identical stamps. I know it sounds like a stupid mistake but I've almost done it a couple times!!Blushing

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StampCollector

30 Oct 2022
12:52:29pm

re: Anybody monitoring the approval books?

I believe that we are bending the rules here, if you can have 10 copies of the same stamp because the cancellations are different then you can have as many as you want since there are no two cancellations alike.

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30 Oct 2022
01:54:43pm

re: Anybody monitoring the approval books?

Many people collect town cancels, machine cancels, date cancels, fancy cancels, pre cancels, etc. I have over a dozen stocksheets each of 3 cent banknotes, 210's, 213's, and 2 cent reds. Where do you draw the line? I had an approval book of letter and number cancels - full and partial pages of each letter or number 0 are you saying this is not acceptable? The book came close to selling out so there is demand.

If there is no place for common sense in "bending the rules" you may end up with a lot less members due to lack of being able to list popular material and lack of being able to find things they are looking for. If a book that in your opinion bends the rules a bit then don't go back to it - but don't deprive other members of viewing material that may be of interest to them.

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rrraphy

Retired Consultant APS#186030
30 Oct 2022
07:06:47pm

re: Anybody monitoring the approval books?

"There's a total of 2 pages of 16 with the heavier duplication, which, to me, seems acceptable."


So rules are just a pretense? Are 3 pages two much, but 2 ok? Maybe rather than remove the book, communicate with the seller who probably does not know we have rules, or thinks they don't apply to them!

"you may end up with a lot less members due to lack of being able to list popular material and lack of being able to find things they are looking for."


Again stated with NO EVIDENCE, as an argument for relaxing Approval Book standards:

If featuring special cancelations, then maybe it should be stated under the stamp! Otherwise, it is what it is!

Seems to me that anything even floor droppings has a tendency to sell here, so why have any rules at all? Maybe if we abolish all rules we shall get more people selling and buying, which is the only goal?? Approvals are a big success already, and truly unique to StampoRama. Where else can you pick up the low cost items that you want for 5c-10c each! and conveniently due to our great software. Do we really care about esthetics or order?!




rrr...

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
30 Oct 2022
08:19:26pm

re: Anybody monitoring the approval books?

Ralph

"Seems to me that anything even floor droppings has a tendency to sell here, so why have any rules at all? Maybe if we abolish all rules we shall get more people selling and buying, which is the only goal??"



i'd like to keep some rules, but can't argue with your observations of what sell

" Where else can you pick up the low cost items that you want for 5c-10c each! and conveniently due to our great software. Do we really care about esthetics or order?!"



Aesthetically, the book being discussed is beautifully displayed, with meticulous right angles.

and, for those discussing the bending of rules, please note the rule that specifically addresses multiples:

"C21. Multiple copies of an item are limited to three, except for offerings such as: collectible cancellation types, pre-cancels, color shades, etc., and must be placed together on the same page.
"



Only the 15F stamp significantly exceeds this, and copies all have legible cancels, many SONs.

For those of you who suffer when others are permitted to bend the rules, I urge you to avoid pages 4 and 5 of this book. But don't let that interfere with your enjoyment of the other beautifully mounted stamps and numbers on the other 14 pages of this booklet.

David

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StampCollector

30 Oct 2022
09:17:02pm

re: Anybody monitoring the approval books?

In my opinion rule C21 was broken twice, once for putting too many copies of the same stamp, the other....read the last paragraph of the rule, putting the same stamps in two different pages.
I rest my case.

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mitoneu

08 Nov 2022
05:42:06pm

re: Anybody monitoring the approval books?

No one is forced to look at what he doesn´t like. On the other hand, no one should enforce his standards to others.
As a more or less frequent user of approvals, I just look up to what I like, and discard the books from sellers that I dislike.
Its simple like this!
I agree compleetly with rraphy!

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Webpaper

In loving memory of Carol, my wife for 52 years.

08 Nov 2022
05:58:53pm

re: Anybody monitoring the approval books?

"C21. Multiple copies of an item are limited to three, except for offerings such as: collectible cancellation types, pre-cancels, color shades, etc., and must be placed together on the same page."

This rule makes no sense - followed to the letter all copies of US #210 would have to be on the same page whether they had a red cancel, a star cancel, a readable RPO cancel or a cork blob.

The basic color of a common stamp may catalog 25 cents while a scarce color variation might catalog $25.00.

Local and bureau precancels can have significant pricing level differences.

It is rules like this that prevent dealers from offering more items of interest to the advanced collector and make approval books which follow all the rules about as interesting as the old mystery bags sold by stamps companies in the 50's when I was a kid.

Just my 2 cents



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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
08 Nov 2022
06:17:28pm

re: Anybody monitoring the approval books?

I don't sell so this suggestion might not be possible. I wonder if the page could be set up where at the top it might say something like "price $0.40 - $10" and then put next to several items on the page a short description and use different prices for several objects. That way similar objects of varying prices could be kept together. All you'd need to do is have a small piece of paper containing a description next to each stamp. It sounds like a sensible idea but it probably takes a bit more work!

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"You know you're getting old when you stoop to tie your shoelaces and wonder what else you could do while you're down there - George Burns"
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rrraphy

Retired Consultant APS#186030
08 Nov 2022
11:58:44pm

re: Anybody monitoring the approval books?

"It is rules like this that prevent dealers from offering more items of interest to the advanced collector "


Once more we throw EXCUSES with NO EVIDENCE!

On the other hand it seems that the best outlook for Approvals now is to remove ALL rules (since they are not enforced) and let it be what it wants.
Why not?
Ian, I agree with you now, let the market be the judge! (but watch our membership numbers).


rrr...

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"E. Rutherford: All science is either physics or stamp collecting."
Webpaper

In loving memory of Carol, my wife for 52 years.

09 Nov 2022
06:58:16am

re: Anybody monitoring the approval books?

It is not an EXCUSE - it is COMMON SENSE. I am attempting to break down a French collection dating back to the 40's or early 50's and using the Yvert catalog. Many common stamps (NOT the earlies) have 3 to 6 or 8 identified color variations which if the identifications are correct (and they appear to be) are all worth different values.

I quit Ebay many years ago or the solution would be easy, but I am not going to place them on auction here or on Hip because of the prevalence of one bid results here and the number of non-payers on Hip.

OK - it is really just my OPINION just as your statement is your OPINION. It's what makes the world go around and I can accept that - but the rules stifle MY interest in spending a lot of time putting good books together - your mileage may vary.

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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
09 Nov 2022
08:01:25am

re: Anybody monitoring the approval books?

I still don't see the problem with setting up a page as I mentioned before - having several similar stamps with different quoted prices and descriptions. I really don't see that as a problem and it would still cut out the people who are offering several identical stamps. I really don't even see that as a big deal as long as the stamps are all shown together so we can compare copies. Spreading them around is really annoying and usually makes me close the book. But if someone has a few of a rather pricey stamps in the same place we can just pick the one we prefer. Seems OK to me but I know some of you don't agree. But if the stamps are together, what's the big deal? It's done with auctions all the time, I've seen as many as 5 or 6 together.

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sheepshanks

09 Nov 2022
09:31:29am

re: Anybody monitoring the approval books?

You can not have different priced items on the same page without a huge change in the programming, each "buy" button would have to be linked to an individual price.
Simple way is to put each on a separate page at it's own price. If this results in only a couple of items per page and below the stamp minimum, request a variation from the mods (not the rockers!).
If they are more valuable stamps put them in the auction, buyers can always copy the image and use a program (like Irfanview) to stitch the images horizontally or vertically for comparison. However as scanners do not always show exact colours, and our eyes see differently, catalogue numbers and a good description will help.

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Bobstamp

09 Nov 2022
02:47:10pm

re: Anybody monitoring the approval books?

The problem of having variously priced approval stamps on individual pages is obvious, but I'm failing to understand another aspect of this discussion, concerning the auction sales vs. approval sales.

From the viewpoint of the seller, what's the difference between a Buy-It-Now price, minimum auction bids, and individually priced approval stamps?

I assume that when sellers post a Buy-It-Now price in addition to a minimum-bid amount in the auction, they are willing to accept the Buy-It-Now price in lieu of bids, but hope it will fetch a higher price if bidding happens.

If a seller offers a stamp on approval, he or she is obviously willing to accept the posted price.

I've been buying stamps in on-line auctions, often opting for the Buy-It-Now option, and through on snail-mail approvals, for at least the last 30 years (although I'm not sure when Buy-It-Now became a routine function of auctions). If the price of a Buy-It-Now stamp or cover seems reasonable, I'll buy it. If a desirable auction item, one without a "Buy It Now" option, has received bids, I'll bid the maximum amount that I'm willing to pay, accepting that I may be outbid.

In short, if a Stamporama seller is concerned about getting the price he wants, why not just put it in the auction with the minimum bid he'll accept or a Buy-It-Now price that he or she will accept?

Bob


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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
09 Nov 2022
03:06:32pm

re: Anybody monitoring the approval books?

Bob,

the big difference is that approvals remain in play, theoretically at least, for lots longer than the max 14 days accorded auctions.

I found approvals more tiresome to prepare, so I don't, but many people enjoy it and have had great success with them.

But all your reasoning is sound on auctions.

David

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