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Europe/Other : France early Semi-Postals (charity stamps). Still this one hole in my collection...

 

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rrraphy
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Retired Consultant

28 Sep 2022
01:40:09am
There is an excellent write up on France Charity stamps, so I will not repeat most of its information here.
https://www.stamp-collecting-world.com/f ...
I have written as of late about areas few members here collect, like Cilicia, Saudi Arabia, French Mandate territories, Yemen etc... Time to mainstream myself, share and discuss an area many members collect: France.

First a definition: These types of French stamps feature a "value added amount" or "surtax amount", in addition to the postal denomination of the stamp. These funds are used to raise money for national organizations, public events, and public charities.

The issue of the French stamps, to raise money for charitable purposes, began out of necessity, due to World War I. The war created multitudes of badly wounded soldiers and needy civilians, thus the necessity to quickly raise money to fund public charities. France started to issue Charity stamps in 1914, and the first two stamps (Scott B1 and B2) were to raise money for the Red Cross.
This was followed by a set of stamps intended to fund the relief funds for War Orphans (Scott B3 to B10), issued between 1917 and 1919.
In my collection, the B10 is the one stamp still missing! It features the same design as B9 but is priced at 5F plus 5F, and is Blue

In 1918 a stamp featuring a field hospital ship was issued and benefited the Red Cross.

Finally in 1922, the 1917-1919 charity stamp designs were overprinted and subsequently re-issued (with lower surcharges). (Scott B13-B19) and Scott B20-23)

I really like these stamps. The designs set a quality standard for subsequent semi postal stamps and were particularly attractive. The engraving, like most early French stamps, are superb, especially the stamps depicting the Marseillaise sculpture featured first on B9 and B10.
I don't know much about the engraver "Ruffe". There was a French engraver by the name of Léon Ruffe during that period, but I am not sure if it is the same.
Does anyone have any additional information.

The following sets were for France's sinking Fund of 1927-1931. There was some discussion about them in the past: https://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_ma ... action=20&id=11000#78485
and in more details on Nov 7, 2015: https://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_ma ...


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rrr...







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rrraphy
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Retired Consultant

28 Sep 2022
04:10:12pm
re: France early Semi-Postals (charity stamps). Still this one hole in my collection...

HELP! Scott B10, Y&T 155.
I was looking at several France B10 stamps available on various sites, and I noticed that the engraver name is different from one stamp to another.
Does anyone know if there were variations in the type used for the engraver name on authentic stamps (as issued on a sheet), or could this be an indication of a large number of counterfeits.
Does anyone have a link to an analysis of genuine and potential counterfeits? Or a picture of stamps with their (reputable) certificates, and not just initials on the back?
Thanks
rrr..

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Jansimon
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collector, seller, MT member

29 Sep 2022
03:02:15am

Approvals
re: France early Semi-Postals (charity stamps). Still this one hole in my collection...

It seems Léon Henri Ruffe is your man: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A9on ...

Do you have examples of how the name is different on various stamps?


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gerom

29 Sep 2022
02:56:32pm
re: France early Semi-Postals (charity stamps). Still this one hole in my collection...

Search on the websites of the 2 French experts Calves and JF Brun.
They always have these stamps for sale

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rrraphy
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Retired Consultant

29 Sep 2022
04:12:36pm
re: France early Semi-Postals (charity stamps). Still this one hole in my collection...

Here are just a few of the B10 on sale right now on Hipstamp and Ebay, focusing on the engraver name.
Are they all varieties on the original plate? I would have expected them to be all identical.

Image Not Found

Image Not Found

Image Not Found

Image Not Found

Image Not Found

and it goes on ... just a few.
There are other differences that may indicate a more obvious fake, but assuming these are all right, do we have a wide varieties of signatures? or??
Without a certificate, I am not sure I would pick any of them, even with Calves or Brun signature on the back.

(Gerom), George...that is a very strange engraver name. Would have me worried.

rrr...

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"E. Rutherford: All science is either physics or stamp collecting."
gerom

29 Sep 2022
04:29:53pm
re: France early Semi-Postals (charity stamps). Still this one hole in my collection...

Carefully check the perforation - the fake stamp is line perforated .
I found an article (by Calves) that explains how you can identify fakes.
https://www.philamurat.fr/photos/pdf/faux-155-calves.pdf
There are 2 different shades ( blue may be a YT 232 stamp where "1F" was replaced by "5F")./ YT155 is "bleu claire".
Read Calves' article.

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gerom

29 Sep 2022
05:25:47pm
re: France early Semi-Postals (charity stamps). Still this one hole in my collection...

I found a fake stamp with line perforation.
Image Not Found

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rrraphy
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Retired Consultant

29 Sep 2022
06:58:01pm
re: France early Semi-Postals (charity stamps). Still this one hole in my collection...

Shape of the letters, spacing between the letters, size of the letters...all this does not inspire confidence.
Were there many different engraver's signatures on the plate? How about the basic design (I have not even looked at the basic design)?
Does anyone know how many stamps were on the plate?
And if there is anywhere an analysis of the differences between them?

Even if it is the last missing hole in my France Semi-Postals to 2000, I guess I am not about to grab one of those expensive B10 (Y&T155) yet!
rrr...

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rrraphy
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Retired Consultant

29 Sep 2022
07:17:59pm
re: France early Semi-Postals (charity stamps). Still this one hole in my collection...

This is a similar stamp (but with the o/p) on a sheet of 50.
cannot see the details unfortunately!
rrr...
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Jansimon
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collector, seller, MT member

30 Sep 2022
03:16:48am

Approvals
re: France early Semi-Postals (charity stamps). Still this one hole in my collection...

Learning that all major catalogues do not distinguish between varieties, the only conclusion can be that the differences you see must be the difference between genuine stamps and forgeries. The remaining question is of course to find the real thing. Perhaps the example shown by Gerom, lifted from a respectable expert's website is a good reference for the real stamp?

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rrraphy
Members Picture


Retired Consultant

30 Sep 2022
01:46:14pm
re: France early Semi-Postals (charity stamps). Still this one hole in my collection...

J-S: I am even more concerned when scanning Ebay, I see that 75% of the B10 stamps on offer are from one dealer located in Nice, France, who also openly sells stamps with fake o/p as "genuine stamp, o/p not authentic", and the stamps are not marked. I know, I bought some from him when I was working on my 1920 pre-cancel french page (shown elsewhere on the discussion board).
His B10 stamps are offered in prices ranging from a few 100s dollars to $2500, and while without certificate, the stamps are offered with right of return and he will provide an authentification certificate if requested! The whole range of engraver's name styles appears too!

I am curious, and can someone educate me? When a sheet of stamp is printed, the engraved "master" is duplicated to form of say "50 or 100 stamps" sheet. How is this done, and how identical are all the stamps (I know very small variations do occur), especially as it comes to identifiable minor plate flaws, but is it the same engraving that is duplicated and then put one plate. Not knowledgeable about the process, so if anyone can educate me..much obliged in advance.

rrr....

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"E. Rutherford: All science is either physics or stamp collecting."
gerom

30 Sep 2022
02:07:18pm
re: France early Semi-Postals (charity stamps). Still this one hole in my collection...

It is very helpful to have the genuine stamp in front of your eyes.
It was a great help in identifying fakes when I had the genuine stamp as a reference.
At the value of YT155 it is harder..
Maybe at exhibitions or at friends who have it in their collection...

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gerom

30 Sep 2022
02:14:10pm
re: France early Semi-Postals (charity stamps). Still this one hole in my collection...

rrraphy,this stamp in typographied.

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rrraphy
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Retired Consultant

30 Sep 2022
02:29:20pm
re: France early Semi-Postals (charity stamps). Still this one hole in my collection...

So a single die is used in the production of the master.
Typography is similar to engraving but with an extra step to produce the negative from the engraving. All stamps, except for minor plate flaws should be identical. There is no room for the engraver's name wide variation one can see. Am I right? One stamp design is thus authentic, and all other varieties of types are fakes.
rrr...

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"E. Rutherford: All science is either physics or stamp collecting."
gerom

01 Oct 2022
03:00:28am
re: France early Semi-Postals (charity stamps). Still this one hole in my collection...

rrraphy, IMO, the die (for black color) for YT 232 is different than YT 155.
I found the first two stamps on "wikitimbres.fr" and the last one is from the Calves expert's website.
There is a difference between the letters E, R (longer diagonal leg) and U (wider)
Calves indicates that YT232 can be forged by cutting out "+1f" and replacing it with "+5f" and recommends differentiating by color.
A forged YT155 stamp has the same color as YT232 (unfortunately you have to have both stamps in front of your eyes)


Image Not Found

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gerom

01 Oct 2022
03:10:37am
re: France early Semi-Postals (charity stamps). Still this one hole in my collection...

IMO, the second image (stamp corner) is a fake stamp - "Ruffe" type YT232 and if you look carefully the white in "+5f" is different from the white of the stamp

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rrraphy
Members Picture


Retired Consultant

01 Oct 2022
12:14:15pm
re: France early Semi-Postals (charity stamps). Still this one hole in my collection...

Thanks George...very interesting information and an even more complex problem than I feared. Seems to me that it is very hard to avoid the expert certification.
At the average price of this stamp, it is certainly a good investment....a necessary one!
It is surprising to see so many stamps offered on Hipstamp and ebay without the certificate , and even more so when so many comes from one dealer (That I personally would not touch, even if he offers to certify the sold item). In my book, no reputable dealer sells counterfeits without permanently making the stamps as such. Wonder if there is, for B10, an issue of fake certificates as well?

Every so often I go back to this collection and stare at the vacant spot.
Not today I guess, and...
I still don't think I have enough information to pick a stamp for my collection without help from the experts.

rrr....

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"E. Rutherford: All science is either physics or stamp collecting."
Harvey

I think, therefore I am - I think!

01 Oct 2022
02:09:08pm
re: France early Semi-Postals (charity stamps). Still this one hole in my collection...

"It is surprising to see so many stamps offered on Hipstamp and ebay without the certificate"


There's an awful lot of stamps offered at good sized prices that are very iffy!! Look at the early overprinted Poland material without certificates and most of that stuff is very iffy indeed. I buy the occasional piece but only if the price is grossly reduced and only consider them to be album fillers. The same is true for Cuba #176 - 220, the Puerto Principe series. Almost all of it is fake and the prices don't reflect this. Almost all scarce overprints have been highly faked and many people offer non certified examples. Certification is not cheap and would drive the prices up to where we couldn't afford them anyway. I would love to have Newfoundland #C18, but I don't trust any of the ones I see offered for sale. It's a major problem in our great hobby. Any comments?

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Author/Postings
Members Picture
rrraphy

Retired Consultant
28 Sep 2022
01:40:09am

There is an excellent write up on France Charity stamps, so I will not repeat most of its information here.
https://www.stamp-collecting-world.com/f ...
I have written as of late about areas few members here collect, like Cilicia, Saudi Arabia, French Mandate territories, Yemen etc... Time to mainstream myself, share and discuss an area many members collect: France.

First a definition: These types of French stamps feature a "value added amount" or "surtax amount", in addition to the postal denomination of the stamp. These funds are used to raise money for national organizations, public events, and public charities.

The issue of the French stamps, to raise money for charitable purposes, began out of necessity, due to World War I. The war created multitudes of badly wounded soldiers and needy civilians, thus the necessity to quickly raise money to fund public charities. France started to issue Charity stamps in 1914, and the first two stamps (Scott B1 and B2) were to raise money for the Red Cross.
This was followed by a set of stamps intended to fund the relief funds for War Orphans (Scott B3 to B10), issued between 1917 and 1919.
In my collection, the B10 is the one stamp still missing! It features the same design as B9 but is priced at 5F plus 5F, and is Blue

In 1918 a stamp featuring a field hospital ship was issued and benefited the Red Cross.

Finally in 1922, the 1917-1919 charity stamp designs were overprinted and subsequently re-issued (with lower surcharges). (Scott B13-B19) and Scott B20-23)

I really like these stamps. The designs set a quality standard for subsequent semi postal stamps and were particularly attractive. The engraving, like most early French stamps, are superb, especially the stamps depicting the Marseillaise sculpture featured first on B9 and B10.
I don't know much about the engraver "Ruffe". There was a French engraver by the name of Léon Ruffe during that period, but I am not sure if it is the same.
Does anyone have any additional information.

The following sets were for France's sinking Fund of 1927-1931. There was some discussion about them in the past: https://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_ma ... action=20&id=11000#78485
and in more details on Nov 7, 2015: https://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_ma ...


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rrr...







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"E. Rutherford: All science is either physics or stamp collecting."
Members Picture
rrraphy

Retired Consultant
28 Sep 2022
04:10:12pm

re: France early Semi-Postals (charity stamps). Still this one hole in my collection...

HELP! Scott B10, Y&T 155.
I was looking at several France B10 stamps available on various sites, and I noticed that the engraver name is different from one stamp to another.
Does anyone know if there were variations in the type used for the engraver name on authentic stamps (as issued on a sheet), or could this be an indication of a large number of counterfeits.
Does anyone have a link to an analysis of genuine and potential counterfeits? Or a picture of stamps with their (reputable) certificates, and not just initials on the back?
Thanks
rrr..

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"E. Rutherford: All science is either physics or stamp collecting."
Members Picture
Jansimon

collector, seller, MT member
29 Sep 2022
03:02:15am

Approvals

re: France early Semi-Postals (charity stamps). Still this one hole in my collection...

It seems Léon Henri Ruffe is your man: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A9on ...

Do you have examples of how the name is different on various stamps?


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www.etsy.com/nl/shop ...
gerom

29 Sep 2022
02:56:32pm

re: France early Semi-Postals (charity stamps). Still this one hole in my collection...

Search on the websites of the 2 French experts Calves and JF Brun.
They always have these stamps for sale

Image Not Found

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this post
Members Picture
rrraphy

Retired Consultant
29 Sep 2022
04:12:36pm

re: France early Semi-Postals (charity stamps). Still this one hole in my collection...

Here are just a few of the B10 on sale right now on Hipstamp and Ebay, focusing on the engraver name.
Are they all varieties on the original plate? I would have expected them to be all identical.

Image Not Found

Image Not Found

Image Not Found

Image Not Found

Image Not Found

and it goes on ... just a few.
There are other differences that may indicate a more obvious fake, but assuming these are all right, do we have a wide varieties of signatures? or??
Without a certificate, I am not sure I would pick any of them, even with Calves or Brun signature on the back.

(Gerom), George...that is a very strange engraver name. Would have me worried.

rrr...

Like
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this post

"E. Rutherford: All science is either physics or stamp collecting."
gerom

29 Sep 2022
04:29:53pm

re: France early Semi-Postals (charity stamps). Still this one hole in my collection...

Carefully check the perforation - the fake stamp is line perforated .
I found an article (by Calves) that explains how you can identify fakes.
https://www.philamurat.fr/photos/pdf/faux-155-calves.pdf
There are 2 different shades ( blue may be a YT 232 stamp where "1F" was replaced by "5F")./ YT155 is "bleu claire".
Read Calves' article.

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gerom

29 Sep 2022
05:25:47pm

re: France early Semi-Postals (charity stamps). Still this one hole in my collection...

I found a fake stamp with line perforation.
Image Not Found

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rrraphy

Retired Consultant
29 Sep 2022
06:58:01pm

re: France early Semi-Postals (charity stamps). Still this one hole in my collection...

Shape of the letters, spacing between the letters, size of the letters...all this does not inspire confidence.
Were there many different engraver's signatures on the plate? How about the basic design (I have not even looked at the basic design)?
Does anyone know how many stamps were on the plate?
And if there is anywhere an analysis of the differences between them?

Even if it is the last missing hole in my France Semi-Postals to 2000, I guess I am not about to grab one of those expensive B10 (Y&T155) yet!
rrr...

Like
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"E. Rutherford: All science is either physics or stamp collecting."
Members Picture
rrraphy

Retired Consultant
29 Sep 2022
07:17:59pm

re: France early Semi-Postals (charity stamps). Still this one hole in my collection...

This is a similar stamp (but with the o/p) on a sheet of 50.
cannot see the details unfortunately!
rrr...
Image Not Found

Like
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"E. Rutherford: All science is either physics or stamp collecting."
Members Picture
Jansimon

collector, seller, MT member
30 Sep 2022
03:16:48am

Approvals

re: France early Semi-Postals (charity stamps). Still this one hole in my collection...

Learning that all major catalogues do not distinguish between varieties, the only conclusion can be that the differences you see must be the difference between genuine stamps and forgeries. The remaining question is of course to find the real thing. Perhaps the example shown by Gerom, lifted from a respectable expert's website is a good reference for the real stamp?

Like
Login to Like
this post

www.etsy.com/nl/shop ...
Members Picture
rrraphy

Retired Consultant
30 Sep 2022
01:46:14pm

re: France early Semi-Postals (charity stamps). Still this one hole in my collection...

J-S: I am even more concerned when scanning Ebay, I see that 75% of the B10 stamps on offer are from one dealer located in Nice, France, who also openly sells stamps with fake o/p as "genuine stamp, o/p not authentic", and the stamps are not marked. I know, I bought some from him when I was working on my 1920 pre-cancel french page (shown elsewhere on the discussion board).
His B10 stamps are offered in prices ranging from a few 100s dollars to $2500, and while without certificate, the stamps are offered with right of return and he will provide an authentification certificate if requested! The whole range of engraver's name styles appears too!

I am curious, and can someone educate me? When a sheet of stamp is printed, the engraved "master" is duplicated to form of say "50 or 100 stamps" sheet. How is this done, and how identical are all the stamps (I know very small variations do occur), especially as it comes to identifiable minor plate flaws, but is it the same engraving that is duplicated and then put one plate. Not knowledgeable about the process, so if anyone can educate me..much obliged in advance.

rrr....

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"E. Rutherford: All science is either physics or stamp collecting."
gerom

30 Sep 2022
02:07:18pm

re: France early Semi-Postals (charity stamps). Still this one hole in my collection...

It is very helpful to have the genuine stamp in front of your eyes.
It was a great help in identifying fakes when I had the genuine stamp as a reference.
At the value of YT155 it is harder..
Maybe at exhibitions or at friends who have it in their collection...

Like
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gerom

30 Sep 2022
02:14:10pm

re: France early Semi-Postals (charity stamps). Still this one hole in my collection...

rrraphy,this stamp in typographied.

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Members Picture
rrraphy

Retired Consultant
30 Sep 2022
02:29:20pm

re: France early Semi-Postals (charity stamps). Still this one hole in my collection...

So a single die is used in the production of the master.
Typography is similar to engraving but with an extra step to produce the negative from the engraving. All stamps, except for minor plate flaws should be identical. There is no room for the engraver's name wide variation one can see. Am I right? One stamp design is thus authentic, and all other varieties of types are fakes.
rrr...

Like
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this post

"E. Rutherford: All science is either physics or stamp collecting."
gerom

01 Oct 2022
03:00:28am

re: France early Semi-Postals (charity stamps). Still this one hole in my collection...

rrraphy, IMO, the die (for black color) for YT 232 is different than YT 155.
I found the first two stamps on "wikitimbres.fr" and the last one is from the Calves expert's website.
There is a difference between the letters E, R (longer diagonal leg) and U (wider)
Calves indicates that YT232 can be forged by cutting out "+1f" and replacing it with "+5f" and recommends differentiating by color.
A forged YT155 stamp has the same color as YT232 (unfortunately you have to have both stamps in front of your eyes)


Image Not Found

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gerom

01 Oct 2022
03:10:37am

re: France early Semi-Postals (charity stamps). Still this one hole in my collection...

IMO, the second image (stamp corner) is a fake stamp - "Ruffe" type YT232 and if you look carefully the white in "+5f" is different from the white of the stamp

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rrraphy

Retired Consultant
01 Oct 2022
12:14:15pm

re: France early Semi-Postals (charity stamps). Still this one hole in my collection...

Thanks George...very interesting information and an even more complex problem than I feared. Seems to me that it is very hard to avoid the expert certification.
At the average price of this stamp, it is certainly a good investment....a necessary one!
It is surprising to see so many stamps offered on Hipstamp and ebay without the certificate , and even more so when so many comes from one dealer (That I personally would not touch, even if he offers to certify the sold item). In my book, no reputable dealer sells counterfeits without permanently making the stamps as such. Wonder if there is, for B10, an issue of fake certificates as well?

Every so often I go back to this collection and stare at the vacant spot.
Not today I guess, and...
I still don't think I have enough information to pick a stamp for my collection without help from the experts.

rrr....

Like
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this post

"E. Rutherford: All science is either physics or stamp collecting."
Harvey

I think, therefore I am - I think!

01 Oct 2022
02:09:08pm

re: France early Semi-Postals (charity stamps). Still this one hole in my collection...

"It is surprising to see so many stamps offered on Hipstamp and ebay without the certificate"


There's an awful lot of stamps offered at good sized prices that are very iffy!! Look at the early overprinted Poland material without certificates and most of that stuff is very iffy indeed. I buy the occasional piece but only if the price is grossly reduced and only consider them to be album fillers. The same is true for Cuba #176 - 220, the Puerto Principe series. Almost all of it is fake and the prices don't reflect this. Almost all scarce overprints have been highly faked and many people offer non certified examples. Certification is not cheap and would drive the prices up to where we couldn't afford them anyway. I would love to have Newfoundland #C18, but I don't trust any of the ones I see offered for sale. It's a major problem in our great hobby. Any comments?

Like
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"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good, too. Yogiism"
        

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