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General Philatelic/Identify This? : Fake or Fortune?

 

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Brechinite
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Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons

14 Sep 2022
06:03:33pm

Auctions - Approvals
I found the following and they do not tie-up with any catalogue:-

Image Not Found

Image Not Found

Image Not Found..............Image Not Found

Image Not Found..............Image Not Found


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DannyS
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14 Sep 2022
09:25:16pm
re: Fake or Fortune?

Ian, if you are on Facebook then the "Ken Pugh Stamp Forgery" group is a good place to get fast answers.

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Jansimon
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collector, seller, MT member

15 Sep 2022
02:40:30am

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re: Fake or Fortune?

"any catalogue" you write, so that means that you could not find any answers in the (specialized) Michel catalogue?

What exactly is the problem, the designs look familiar, are the colours wrong? Perhaps they are proofs?

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Brechinite
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Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons

15 Sep 2022
05:05:44am

Auctions - Approvals
re: Fake or Fortune?

Jan-Simon,

Yes they could not be found in any catalogue that I have seen.

They could not be found on the many, many, internet sales platforms and other sites.

Yes they are recognisable but in the wrong colours and not on white paper.

I put it up here to see if anyone recognised them and furnish details.

Surely listing in the "Can you help identify this?" section means that I am looking for the identification of these stamps.

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"Gonnae no dae that!..........Just gonnae no!"
Jansimon
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collector, seller, MT member

15 Sep 2022
07:24:37am

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re: Fake or Fortune?

Ian,
I just wondered if you had the opportunity to check the Michel catalogue. If not, I could give it a try but now I know that this is not necessary.
Perhaps our valued member "Hockeynut", who has an incredible knowledge of all philatelic matters concerning Germany, can help here.

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www.etsy.com/nl/shop/itsallmadeofpaper/
cdj1122
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..

15 Sep 2022
03:30:24pm
re: Fake or Fortune?

One of the German Auction houses printed (reprinted)
mini-sheet examples of rare, expensive or otherwise
unavailable issues of early German issues. Somewhere,
I have half dozen or more and carefully cut they could
pass for imperf copies.

Note: Schneider Auctions (???)

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".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
Brechinite
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Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons

15 Sep 2022
05:20:52pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: Fake or Fortune?

Charlie:-

Are your examples on white paper or coloured paper?

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"Gonnae no dae that!..........Just gonnae no!"
DannyS
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15 Sep 2022
10:12:17pm
re: Fake or Fortune?

Ian, if you had put the pictures on the Facebook group I mentioned above you would have an answer by now. On the other hand it may not be the correct answer.Happy Would you like me to put the pictures up?

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Brechinite
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Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons

16 Sep 2022
05:58:48am

Auctions - Approvals
re: Fake or Fortune?

Hi Danny,

Thanks for the kind offer but no.

I'm not sitting on the edge of my seat waiting to find out. I found these in a mixed lot and was just wondering what they were and thought I would post them here on the off chance someone knew.

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"Gonnae no dae that!..........Just gonnae no!"
cdj1122
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..

16 Sep 2022
03:25:03pm
re: Fake or Fortune?

" ....
Are your examples on white paper or coloured paper? ...."

Well, it was a search, as I'd not bothered with these
mini-sheets in years, but found five ofthem.
Unfortunately they are of no help in this case
because they are copied as if in black mounts
which gives a thin black border..

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".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
HockeyNut
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17 Sep 2022
02:28:08pm
re: Fake or Fortune?

Well I would like to try it but give no guarantees.

Bayern from left to right :

2II, 2Ia, 4II, 10a, 5c, 12, 6, 7 and the last one no idea maybe a fake?

The images are too small so that you cannot distinguish between the various plate differences.
Furthermore, the stamps are in some cases very damaged, which naturally depresses the value a lot.

Bergedorf

5

Value about 10 euros

Oldenburg

1

It is a pity that this stamp is cut too short at the bottom otherwise the list price would be about 850 euros.
A lot less now unfortunately.....

All catalog numbers according to Michel.

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Jansimon
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collector, seller, MT member

17 Sep 2022
02:53:25pm

Approvals
re: Fake or Fortune?

There is something funny about these stamps. They seem to be black ink on coloured paper whereas the "normal" ones are coloured ink on white paper.

Here are some examples of the normal ones

Image Not Found

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www.etsy.com/nl/shop/itsallmadeofpaper/
Brechinite
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Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons

17 Sep 2022
03:00:07pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: Fake or Fortune?

Yes they are black ink on coloured paper.

I have some stamps like Jan-Simons and those I scanned and listed here bear no resemblence to Jan-Simons.

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"Gonnae no dae that!..........Just gonnae no!"
Jansimon
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collector, seller, MT member

17 Sep 2022
03:38:27pm

Approvals
re: Fake or Fortune?

Well, it took me quite some time, but I now know what these are.
These are called "Instruktionsmarken" (instruction stamps). They were used on parcels with stamps which were sent to the post offices. The clerks could thus easily see which stamps were in the parcels.

The background colour of such blackprints corresponded to the colour of the stamps in the parcel. So despite their name they are not real stamps but rather illustrations cut from the wrapping paper. They seem to be known and coveted by Bavaria specialists and it is no surprise that they are, according to the book "Die Briefmarken von Altdeutschland" by K.K.Doberer some of the most forged stamps (or labels rather) of Bavaria. Go figure, there was only 1 of these for every 4500 stamps that were packed in such a wrapper and most of these wrappers were thrown away because it was packing paper. Whether yours are the real thing or forgeries, they are very interesting items.

Image Not Found

Image Not Found

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www.etsy.com/nl/shop/itsallmadeofpaper/
Jansimon
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collector, seller, MT member

17 Sep 2022
03:51:40pm

Approvals
re: Fake or Fortune?

By the way, after finding an article about these instruction stamps, I read that they are mentioned in Michel. It took me quite some time, but I found it as some sort of foot note in the specialized catalogue. I am not surprised you were not able to find it.

Image Not Found

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Brechinite
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Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons

17 Sep 2022
07:12:33pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: Fake or Fortune?

Thank you Jan-Simon for the information.

Aye it was easy to miss these two lines in Michel.

Especially as I have very limited German.

Where did you find the scans of the wrappers?

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"Gonnae no dae that!..........Just gonnae no!"
Jansimon
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collector, seller, MT member

18 Sep 2022
02:09:52am

Approvals
re: Fake or Fortune?

On a German site when I knew that I had to search for instruktionsmarken

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Author/Postings
Members Picture
Brechinite

Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons
14 Sep 2022
06:03:33pm

Auctions - Approvals

I found the following and they do not tie-up with any catalogue:-

Image Not Found

Image Not Found

Image Not Found..............Image Not Found

Image Not Found..............Image Not Found


Like
Login to Like
this post

"Gonnae no dae that!..........Just gonnae no!"
Members Picture
DannyS

14 Sep 2022
09:25:16pm

re: Fake or Fortune?

Ian, if you are on Facebook then the "Ken Pugh Stamp Forgery" group is a good place to get fast answers.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
Jansimon

collector, seller, MT member
15 Sep 2022
02:40:30am

Approvals

re: Fake or Fortune?

"any catalogue" you write, so that means that you could not find any answers in the (specialized) Michel catalogue?

What exactly is the problem, the designs look familiar, are the colours wrong? Perhaps they are proofs?

Like
Login to Like
this post

www.etsy.com/nl/shop ...
Members Picture
Brechinite

Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons
15 Sep 2022
05:05:44am

Auctions - Approvals

re: Fake or Fortune?

Jan-Simon,

Yes they could not be found in any catalogue that I have seen.

They could not be found on the many, many, internet sales platforms and other sites.

Yes they are recognisable but in the wrong colours and not on white paper.

I put it up here to see if anyone recognised them and furnish details.

Surely listing in the "Can you help identify this?" section means that I am looking for the identification of these stamps.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Gonnae no dae that!..........Just gonnae no!"
Members Picture
Jansimon

collector, seller, MT member
15 Sep 2022
07:24:37am

Approvals

re: Fake or Fortune?

Ian,
I just wondered if you had the opportunity to check the Michel catalogue. If not, I could give it a try but now I know that this is not necessary.
Perhaps our valued member "Hockeynut", who has an incredible knowledge of all philatelic matters concerning Germany, can help here.

Like
Login to Like
this post

www.etsy.com/nl/shop ...

Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
15 Sep 2022
03:30:24pm

re: Fake or Fortune?

One of the German Auction houses printed (reprinted)
mini-sheet examples of rare, expensive or otherwise
unavailable issues of early German issues. Somewhere,
I have half dozen or more and carefully cut they could
pass for imperf copies.

Note: Schneider Auctions (???)

Like
Login to Like
this post

".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
Members Picture
Brechinite

Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons
15 Sep 2022
05:20:52pm

Auctions - Approvals

re: Fake or Fortune?

Charlie:-

Are your examples on white paper or coloured paper?

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Gonnae no dae that!..........Just gonnae no!"
Members Picture
DannyS

15 Sep 2022
10:12:17pm

re: Fake or Fortune?

Ian, if you had put the pictures on the Facebook group I mentioned above you would have an answer by now. On the other hand it may not be the correct answer.Happy Would you like me to put the pictures up?

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
Brechinite

Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons
16 Sep 2022
05:58:48am

Auctions - Approvals

re: Fake or Fortune?

Hi Danny,

Thanks for the kind offer but no.

I'm not sitting on the edge of my seat waiting to find out. I found these in a mixed lot and was just wondering what they were and thought I would post them here on the off chance someone knew.

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.

"Gonnae no dae that!..........Just gonnae no!"

Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
16 Sep 2022
03:25:03pm

re: Fake or Fortune?

" ....
Are your examples on white paper or coloured paper? ...."

Well, it was a search, as I'd not bothered with these
mini-sheets in years, but found five ofthem.
Unfortunately they are of no help in this case
because they are copied as if in black mounts
which gives a thin black border..

Like
Login to Like
this post

".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
Members Picture
HockeyNut

17 Sep 2022
02:28:08pm

re: Fake or Fortune?

Well I would like to try it but give no guarantees.

Bayern from left to right :

2II, 2Ia, 4II, 10a, 5c, 12, 6, 7 and the last one no idea maybe a fake?

The images are too small so that you cannot distinguish between the various plate differences.
Furthermore, the stamps are in some cases very damaged, which naturally depresses the value a lot.

Bergedorf

5

Value about 10 euros

Oldenburg

1

It is a pity that this stamp is cut too short at the bottom otherwise the list price would be about 850 euros.
A lot less now unfortunately.....

All catalog numbers according to Michel.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
Jansimon

collector, seller, MT member
17 Sep 2022
02:53:25pm

Approvals

re: Fake or Fortune?

There is something funny about these stamps. They seem to be black ink on coloured paper whereas the "normal" ones are coloured ink on white paper.

Here are some examples of the normal ones

Image Not Found

Like
Login to Like
this post

www.etsy.com/nl/shop ...
Members Picture
Brechinite

Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons
17 Sep 2022
03:00:07pm

Auctions - Approvals

re: Fake or Fortune?

Yes they are black ink on coloured paper.

I have some stamps like Jan-Simons and those I scanned and listed here bear no resemblence to Jan-Simons.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Gonnae no dae that!..........Just gonnae no!"
Members Picture
Jansimon

collector, seller, MT member
17 Sep 2022
03:38:27pm

Approvals

re: Fake or Fortune?

Well, it took me quite some time, but I now know what these are.
These are called "Instruktionsmarken" (instruction stamps). They were used on parcels with stamps which were sent to the post offices. The clerks could thus easily see which stamps were in the parcels.

The background colour of such blackprints corresponded to the colour of the stamps in the parcel. So despite their name they are not real stamps but rather illustrations cut from the wrapping paper. They seem to be known and coveted by Bavaria specialists and it is no surprise that they are, according to the book "Die Briefmarken von Altdeutschland" by K.K.Doberer some of the most forged stamps (or labels rather) of Bavaria. Go figure, there was only 1 of these for every 4500 stamps that were packed in such a wrapper and most of these wrappers were thrown away because it was packing paper. Whether yours are the real thing or forgeries, they are very interesting items.

Image Not Found

Image Not Found

Like
Login to Like
this post

www.etsy.com/nl/shop ...
Members Picture
Jansimon

collector, seller, MT member
17 Sep 2022
03:51:40pm

Approvals

re: Fake or Fortune?

By the way, after finding an article about these instruction stamps, I read that they are mentioned in Michel. It took me quite some time, but I found it as some sort of foot note in the specialized catalogue. I am not surprised you were not able to find it.

Image Not Found

Like 
5 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.

www.etsy.com/nl/shop ...
Members Picture
Brechinite

Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons
17 Sep 2022
07:12:33pm

Auctions - Approvals

re: Fake or Fortune?

Thank you Jan-Simon for the information.

Aye it was easy to miss these two lines in Michel.

Especially as I have very limited German.

Where did you find the scans of the wrappers?

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Gonnae no dae that!..........Just gonnae no!"
Members Picture
Jansimon

collector, seller, MT member
18 Sep 2022
02:09:52am

Approvals

re: Fake or Fortune?

On a German site when I knew that I had to search for instruktionsmarken

Like
Login to Like
this post

www.etsy.com/nl/shop ...
        

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