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General Philatelic/Gen. Discussion : Removing self-adhesive Machins from envelopes - a first experiment

 

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Jansimon
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collector, seller, MT member

22 Jun 2022
07:36:22am

Auctions - Approvals
After long hesitation I have finally given it a try. I found some sticker remover in the cupboard along side all kinds of other chemicals (turpentine, paint thinner, line seed oil... you name it) and decided this was the moment to see if I could get those unsoakable modern Machins off paper.
I put a cloth on the sideboard in the kitchen, placed a few close cut Machins-on-paper (only those I had more than one copy of, just to be sure) on it, face down and carefully applied some sticker remover fluid on the back and waited for the backing paper to be completely soaked. After one minute I gently pulled at the stamp and wow! it went off without any problem. Even the security cuts came along. So I decided to do a few more, but after about 15 stamps I stopped because I need to have some kind of ventilation (there is a very chemical smell in the kitchen now) and I had to find talcum powder because I had read people use that to make the back of the stamp stop being sticky.
That's the final touch, I suppose. So far I am pleased with the result as it shows it can be done.
I want to try with some kind of air freshener as well (everybody keeps mentioning Real Citrus, but that's not available over here in the Netherlands, as far as I know), because the chemical smell is the main problem now.
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DaveSheridan
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22 Jun 2022
08:12:37am
re: Removing self-adhesive Machins from envelopes - a first experiment

I admire your determination.

This is my preferred method

Image Not Found

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Jansimon
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collector, seller, MT member

22 Jun 2022
08:21:06am

Auctions - Approvals
re: Removing self-adhesive Machins from envelopes - a first experiment

Laughing To each his own, I suppose. Next time, you might as well send them to me. I just started to notice that these newer stamps also have year codes. Even more varieties to collect...

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Brechinite
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Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons

22 Jun 2022
09:05:37am

Auctions - Approvals
re: Removing self-adhesive Machins from envelopes - a first experiment

They not only have year codes, apart from 2009, They also have codes to tell whether they came from sheets, 6 stamp booklets, 12 stamp booklets, booklets with commemms, Prestige Booklets and from Minisheets!

Have Fun!!

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"Whit’s fur ye’ll no go by ye!......Noo jist haud on!.......Gonnae no’ dae that!..Just Gonnae no'"
Jansimon
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collector, seller, MT member

22 Jun 2022
09:13:40am

Auctions - Approvals
re: Removing self-adhesive Machins from envelopes - a first experiment

OMG!

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BrightonPete
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Praying for Ukraine

22 Jun 2022
03:19:48pm
re: Removing self-adhesive Machins from envelopes - a first experiment

OMG is what I say too! I never knew! What did I get myself into?

I just had the 2022 Great Britain Concise delivered. I'll have to take a look at how SG sorts the lot!

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sheepshanks
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22 Jun 2022
03:44:29pm
re: Removing self-adhesive Machins from envelopes - a first experiment

Personally I leave them on paper, less chance of damaging a stamp.
For those modern Machins, 2009 onwards, there is a nice pdf download checklist from Norvic Philatelics at the link below. Scoll part way down to the links on the right hand side.
As Charlie will tell you the Deegam handbook is the bible, Adminware and the Burgess catalogue are also great references.

https://blog.norphil.co.uk/

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sheepshanks
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22 Jun 2022
04:09:06pm
re: Removing self-adhesive Machins from envelopes - a first experiment

Here are a few pages I created with Clive's program to give you some ideas.
Image Not Found
Image Not Found
Image Not Found
Image Not Found

As you will observe I have to do some additional pages to cater for those additional stamps. And no I have not done pages for the datamatrix stamps as yet!

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Jansimon
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collector, seller, MT member

22 Jun 2022
04:27:51pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: Removing self-adhesive Machins from envelopes - a first experiment

At this moment I only have a very small amount of the self adhesive ones with slits and codes. From a quick look at the checklist I conclude that there is a long way to go. As far as the experiment is concerned, I am pleased with the result. I used some baking soda to neutralise the stickiness and it works pretty well.

I just put the stamps that now look like any old stamp in the stockbook, with the other Machines.
Here are some of the duplicates (at least I think they are, I just found out that the codes are very difficult to see with lamp light)

Image Not Found

By the way, I need to learn about those data matrix things, right now I am blissfully unaware of what they are.

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sheepshanks
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22 Jun 2022
04:35:21pm
re: Removing self-adhesive Machins from envelopes - a first experiment

Here is a scan of some Matrix Machins, the matrix identifies each individual stamp so presumably when the post office scans the envelopes for franking etc, they will be able to reject any stamp that has previously been used, irrespective of soaking/cleaning, and also catch forgeries.

Image Not Found

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cougar
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22 Jun 2022
07:55:28pm

Approvals
re: Removing self-adhesive Machins from envelopes - a first experiment

If they are scanning that image in the salvage, I wonder why the salvage and the stamp are not one piece.
The way it looks to me, one can affix the stamp only and bin the salvage, which actually seems a very reasonable thing to do.

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sheepshanks
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22 Jun 2022
08:36:43pm
re: Removing self-adhesive Machins from envelopes - a first experiment

Again from the Norvic website (a really good resource)


Transition to Barcoded Stamps

Following a successful national trial we (Post Office) will now be adding unique barcodes to all our regular ‘everyday’ Definitive and Christmas stamps. Each barcoded stamp will have a digital twin and the two will be connected by the Royal Mail App. The unique barcodes will facilitate operational efficiencies, enable the introduction of added security features and pave the way for innovative services for our customers.

The barcodes match the stamp colour and sit alongside the main body of the stamp, separated by a simulated perforation line. The new barcode is an integral part of the stamp and must remain intact for the stamp to be valid.

Non-barcoded stamps will be phased out but will remain usable until 31 January 2023. Customers are encouraged to use their non-barcoded stamps before this date. Alternatively, non-barcoded stamps can be exchanged for the new barcoded version through Royal Mail’s ‘Swap Out’ scheme.

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Jansimon
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collector, seller, MT member

23 Jun 2022
04:18:27am

Auctions - Approvals
re: Removing self-adhesive Machins from envelopes - a first experiment

I suppose that Swap Out scheme will result in a tsunami of recent mint stamps flooding the market, as I suppose Royal Mail will not recycle them and will probably resell them in bulk to big dealers.

At least it's better than how it went over here during the Euro transition. Old guilders stamps were made invalid shortly after the introduction of the euro, _without_ any swap or reimbursement scheme. That's why one sees many mint Netherlands from 1977 to 2001 for low prices: they used to have an intrinsic value as they could be used for postage, but when that was no longer possible it became clear there were simply too many on the market.

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www.etsy.com/nl/shop/itsallmadeofpaper/
Jansimon
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collector, seller, MT member

23 Jun 2022
04:21:12am

Auctions - Approvals
re: Removing self-adhesive Machins from envelopes - a first experiment

"If they are scanning that image in the salvage, I wonder why the salvage and the stamp are not one piece.
The way it looks to me, one can affix the stamp only and bin the salvage, which actually seems a very reasonable thing to do."



On another website it says: "The design approach is unchanged, with a printed 'simulated perforation' separating the Queen’s head from the matrix code."
So no separation, it is one piece of paper.

By the way, it is all clear as mud to me, because in that same news article I read: "The company says it has no plans to introduce digital coding to special issues. " So that means definitives have yet undefined innovative services and "will facilitate operational efficiencies" but the commemorative stamps do not have the features. Isn't that a huge hole in the system? What's the use of the features if it isn't implemented fully? Or do they expect the additional features are so fantastic no one will want to use the commems anymore?
Questions, questions...

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cougar
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25 Jun 2022
01:03:10am

Approvals
re: Removing self-adhesive Machins from envelopes - a first experiment

OK, "simulated perforation" would mean every stamp will be unique. How can we now collect all different machines? Mission Impossible!

When they have this new security feature, why are they not getting rid of those security oval cuts into the stamp. Keeping them seems total overkill and pretty useless.

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Brechinite
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Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons

25 Jun 2022
05:21:38am

Auctions - Approvals
re: Removing self-adhesive Machins from envelopes - a first experiment

" but the commemorative stamps do not have the features
"



Sticking a matrix code on a queens head stamp is no big deal it looks OK but to stick a matrix code on a commemmorative would distract from the design and would be ugly and would probably reduce the sales of them.

Royal Mail is besett with forgeries. Just go onto ebay UK and search stamps and up pops dozens of booklets of forgeries, all of which are Machins. The commemmoratives are rarely forged.

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"Whit’s fur ye’ll no go by ye!......Noo jist haud on!.......Gonnae no’ dae that!..Just Gonnae no'"
        

 

Author/Postings
Members Picture
Jansimon

collector, seller, MT member
22 Jun 2022
07:36:22am

Auctions - Approvals

After long hesitation I have finally given it a try. I found some sticker remover in the cupboard along side all kinds of other chemicals (turpentine, paint thinner, line seed oil... you name it) and decided this was the moment to see if I could get those unsoakable modern Machins off paper.
I put a cloth on the sideboard in the kitchen, placed a few close cut Machins-on-paper (only those I had more than one copy of, just to be sure) on it, face down and carefully applied some sticker remover fluid on the back and waited for the backing paper to be completely soaked. After one minute I gently pulled at the stamp and wow! it went off without any problem. Even the security cuts came along. So I decided to do a few more, but after about 15 stamps I stopped because I need to have some kind of ventilation (there is a very chemical smell in the kitchen now) and I had to find talcum powder because I had read people use that to make the back of the stamp stop being sticky.
That's the final touch, I suppose. So far I am pleased with the result as it shows it can be done.
I want to try with some kind of air freshener as well (everybody keeps mentioning Real Citrus, but that's not available over here in the Netherlands, as far as I know), because the chemical smell is the main problem now.

Like
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this post

www.etsy.com/nl/shop ...
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DaveSheridan

22 Jun 2022
08:12:37am

re: Removing self-adhesive Machins from envelopes - a first experiment

I admire your determination.

This is my preferred method

Image Not Found

Like 
4 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.

"www.globalphilately.com"

www.globalphilately. ...
Members Picture
Jansimon

collector, seller, MT member
22 Jun 2022
08:21:06am

Auctions - Approvals

re: Removing self-adhesive Machins from envelopes - a first experiment

Laughing To each his own, I suppose. Next time, you might as well send them to me. I just started to notice that these newer stamps also have year codes. Even more varieties to collect...

Like
Login to Like
this post

www.etsy.com/nl/shop ...
Members Picture
Brechinite

Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons
22 Jun 2022
09:05:37am

Auctions - Approvals

re: Removing self-adhesive Machins from envelopes - a first experiment

They not only have year codes, apart from 2009, They also have codes to tell whether they came from sheets, 6 stamp booklets, 12 stamp booklets, booklets with commemms, Prestige Booklets and from Minisheets!

Have Fun!!

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.

"Whit’s fur ye’ll no go by ye!......Noo jist haud on!.......Gonnae no’ dae that!..Just Gonnae no'"
Members Picture
Jansimon

collector, seller, MT member
22 Jun 2022
09:13:40am

Auctions - Approvals

re: Removing self-adhesive Machins from envelopes - a first experiment

OMG!

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BrightonPete

Praying for Ukraine
22 Jun 2022
03:19:48pm

re: Removing self-adhesive Machins from envelopes - a first experiment

OMG is what I say too! I never knew! What did I get myself into?

I just had the 2022 Great Britain Concise delivered. I'll have to take a look at how SG sorts the lot!

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
sheepshanks

22 Jun 2022
03:44:29pm

re: Removing self-adhesive Machins from envelopes - a first experiment

Personally I leave them on paper, less chance of damaging a stamp.
For those modern Machins, 2009 onwards, there is a nice pdf download checklist from Norvic Philatelics at the link below. Scoll part way down to the links on the right hand side.
As Charlie will tell you the Deegam handbook is the bible, Adminware and the Burgess catalogue are also great references.

https://blog.norphil.co.uk/

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
sheepshanks

22 Jun 2022
04:09:06pm

re: Removing self-adhesive Machins from envelopes - a first experiment

Here are a few pages I created with Clive's program to give you some ideas.
Image Not Found
Image Not Found
Image Not Found
Image Not Found

As you will observe I have to do some additional pages to cater for those additional stamps. And no I have not done pages for the datamatrix stamps as yet!

Like 
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
Members Picture
Jansimon

collector, seller, MT member
22 Jun 2022
04:27:51pm

Auctions - Approvals

re: Removing self-adhesive Machins from envelopes - a first experiment

At this moment I only have a very small amount of the self adhesive ones with slits and codes. From a quick look at the checklist I conclude that there is a long way to go. As far as the experiment is concerned, I am pleased with the result. I used some baking soda to neutralise the stickiness and it works pretty well.

I just put the stamps that now look like any old stamp in the stockbook, with the other Machines.
Here are some of the duplicates (at least I think they are, I just found out that the codes are very difficult to see with lamp light)

Image Not Found

By the way, I need to learn about those data matrix things, right now I am blissfully unaware of what they are.

Like
Login to Like
this post

www.etsy.com/nl/shop ...
Members Picture
sheepshanks

22 Jun 2022
04:35:21pm

re: Removing self-adhesive Machins from envelopes - a first experiment

Here is a scan of some Matrix Machins, the matrix identifies each individual stamp so presumably when the post office scans the envelopes for franking etc, they will be able to reject any stamp that has previously been used, irrespective of soaking/cleaning, and also catch forgeries.

Image Not Found

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
Members Picture
cougar

22 Jun 2022
07:55:28pm

Approvals

re: Removing self-adhesive Machins from envelopes - a first experiment

If they are scanning that image in the salvage, I wonder why the salvage and the stamp are not one piece.
The way it looks to me, one can affix the stamp only and bin the salvage, which actually seems a very reasonable thing to do.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
sheepshanks

22 Jun 2022
08:36:43pm

re: Removing self-adhesive Machins from envelopes - a first experiment

Again from the Norvic website (a really good resource)


Transition to Barcoded Stamps

Following a successful national trial we (Post Office) will now be adding unique barcodes to all our regular ‘everyday’ Definitive and Christmas stamps. Each barcoded stamp will have a digital twin and the two will be connected by the Royal Mail App. The unique barcodes will facilitate operational efficiencies, enable the introduction of added security features and pave the way for innovative services for our customers.

The barcodes match the stamp colour and sit alongside the main body of the stamp, separated by a simulated perforation line. The new barcode is an integral part of the stamp and must remain intact for the stamp to be valid.

Non-barcoded stamps will be phased out but will remain usable until 31 January 2023. Customers are encouraged to use their non-barcoded stamps before this date. Alternatively, non-barcoded stamps can be exchanged for the new barcoded version through Royal Mail’s ‘Swap Out’ scheme.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
Jansimon

collector, seller, MT member
23 Jun 2022
04:18:27am

Auctions - Approvals

re: Removing self-adhesive Machins from envelopes - a first experiment

I suppose that Swap Out scheme will result in a tsunami of recent mint stamps flooding the market, as I suppose Royal Mail will not recycle them and will probably resell them in bulk to big dealers.

At least it's better than how it went over here during the Euro transition. Old guilders stamps were made invalid shortly after the introduction of the euro, _without_ any swap or reimbursement scheme. That's why one sees many mint Netherlands from 1977 to 2001 for low prices: they used to have an intrinsic value as they could be used for postage, but when that was no longer possible it became clear there were simply too many on the market.

Like
Login to Like
this post

www.etsy.com/nl/shop ...
Members Picture
Jansimon

collector, seller, MT member
23 Jun 2022
04:21:12am

Auctions - Approvals

re: Removing self-adhesive Machins from envelopes - a first experiment

"If they are scanning that image in the salvage, I wonder why the salvage and the stamp are not one piece.
The way it looks to me, one can affix the stamp only and bin the salvage, which actually seems a very reasonable thing to do."



On another website it says: "The design approach is unchanged, with a printed 'simulated perforation' separating the Queen’s head from the matrix code."
So no separation, it is one piece of paper.

By the way, it is all clear as mud to me, because in that same news article I read: "The company says it has no plans to introduce digital coding to special issues. " So that means definitives have yet undefined innovative services and "will facilitate operational efficiencies" but the commemorative stamps do not have the features. Isn't that a huge hole in the system? What's the use of the features if it isn't implemented fully? Or do they expect the additional features are so fantastic no one will want to use the commems anymore?
Questions, questions...

Like
Login to Like
this post

www.etsy.com/nl/shop ...
Members Picture
cougar

25 Jun 2022
01:03:10am

Approvals

re: Removing self-adhesive Machins from envelopes - a first experiment

OK, "simulated perforation" would mean every stamp will be unique. How can we now collect all different machines? Mission Impossible!

When they have this new security feature, why are they not getting rid of those security oval cuts into the stamp. Keeping them seems total overkill and pretty useless.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
Brechinite

Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons
25 Jun 2022
05:21:38am

Auctions - Approvals

re: Removing self-adhesive Machins from envelopes - a first experiment

" but the commemorative stamps do not have the features
"



Sticking a matrix code on a queens head stamp is no big deal it looks OK but to stick a matrix code on a commemmorative would distract from the design and would be ugly and would probably reduce the sales of them.

Royal Mail is besett with forgeries. Just go onto ebay UK and search stamps and up pops dozens of booklets of forgeries, all of which are Machins. The commemmoratives are rarely forged.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Whit’s fur ye’ll no go by ye!......Noo jist haud on!.......Gonnae no’ dae that!..Just Gonnae no'"
        

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