Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
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02:40:00pm
I've always considered myself to be a fairly intelligent person, but I really don't understand NFT's! Could someone explain the concept in 50 words or less so I know what this post is about? Please!!! When a person is spending big bucks on one what is he/she really buying?
"As an example, consider one of the most famous art pieces, the Mona Lisa. At any point, it’s possible to commission an artist to recreate the Mona Lisa. You can even take a picture of the Mona Lisa or order a print to hang up on a wall.
As the original, the real Mona Lisa will always be more valued and sought after than any recreations or printouts - this is due to provenance and originality. NFTs provide a similar uniqueness for digital images that were once only reserved for physical art"
I grabbed this on line and it makes no sense to me at all!!! Could someone explain please
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03:37:56pm
"minted to a blockchain"
HUH?
On line explanation of above:
"Minting crypto is the process of generating new coins by authenticating data, creating new blocks, and recording the information onto the blockchain through a “proof of stake” protocol.Jan 19, 2"
Double HUH?
I really don't understand, sorry!! It must be an age thing!!
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"When a person is spending big bucks on one what is he/she really buying?"
You are buying the hope that you will find another gullible person who will pay more for this thing than you.
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Problem with a stamp expert is that you can find many, but they are only expert within a small field. Even different experts will differ in opinions on stamps.
I would suggest that you start your query with the many Philatelic Societies, such as the APS or Royal Society. Expect to pay for the advice, knowledge does not come cheap.
Personally NFT's and Crypto currencies are just the current fad, the latter in my opinion being not much more than a pyramid system where the coins are generated by the blockchain.
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04:40:24pm
"a stamp expert"
"“An expert is one who knows more and more about less and less until he knows absolutely everything about nothing"
The above is a quote by Nicholas Butler and it seems to say it all!
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This NFT cost the original buyer lots but a huge loss if he wishes to sell now.
https://nftevening.com/jack-dorseys-firs ...
Like stamps they are only worth what someone is willing to pay.
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Saying that NFT is another word for scam won't be too far from the truth, and now that I think of it, I am the proud owner or an NFT bought in Paris 1n 1996.
If there are any takers I can make copies and sell them for pennies over what it cost to me to make them.
Sorry for the glare in the picture, I'm not an expert in photography either.
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Geez, I feel kinda bad for SnowcrashMax. Guess he thought we were a bunch of young hipsters - not oldies with hip problems...
Wonder if he paid his dues in advance, and with bitcoin...
But seriously, despite what we all think about this new commodity (probably mostly WTF rather than NFT) he needs to be very specific about what expertise he is looking for, as has been noted herein.
With the Holocaust Stamps Project being involved both in making art from stamps, and creating a "Philatelic History of The Holocaust" I could offer some assistance if this is a legit proposition. We'll see if he contacts me through a PM.
Cheers, Dave.
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If my T. Rowe Price guy posts here i hope its about stamps and covers.
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"If there are any takers..."
Hey StampCollector. I just bit a coin. So does that mean you'll send me your NWTFT now?
Thanks, Dave.
P.S. It chipped my tooth. Does your health care plan cover that?
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Whew. Sounds like a lot of hooey.
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The movie "The Flim Flam Man " with George C Scott was a great movie.
Check it out
Fredcdobbs
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Na Na Na Dave, you are supposed to lick the stamps, not bite them!
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Bitcoin is an intangible and purchasing it is pure speculation. There is no government with taxing authority standing behind it, as there is with US Dollars, British Pounds, or the Japanese Yen.
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I think the message is clear, noone here either understands or likes the concepts of bitcoin and nft. Fair enough, I have difficulties seeing the added value as well. But in the mean time, we had a member who asked for help and it seems that the answers here (remarks rather) have chased him away: the original question and his follow up messages have been removed. One could say that putting such a message about non-fungible tokens on a stamp discussion board was asking for trouble, but then again, shouldn't Max have been given the benefit of the doubt? He was clearly hoping to find someone that could help him and was not soliciting an appraisal of his work.
Anyway, the discussion has become meaningless without the starting message.
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Good points J-S. I did offer to help but never heard from him.
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Hi Dave,
I offered help in a personal message as well, but have not heard back from him either. Looking at the available info, I think Max joined in order to drop his question here, he is still in the introduction month and has not yet paid to be a member. I doubt he will.
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i also wrote him an inquiry asking more about his specific needs; i haven't heard back either
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10:43:04am
And I had to read the entire thread to discover what an "NFT" actually was, or is:: NFT = Non-Fungible Tokin
fungible / fun-jib-bal
adjectiveLAW
(of goods contracted for without an individual specimen being specified) able to replace or be replaced by another identical item; mutually interchangeable.
"it is by no means the world's only fungible commodity"
I feel so much smarter now !
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" He was clearly hoping to find someone that could help him"
This is not at all clear to me. His ruse seems utterly transparent to me. I am confident that he was not looking for a "stamp expert", but was using a free trial membership as an opportunity to promote NFTs. This this evidenced by his lack of response to members who offered to help. Stamporama members are not as gullible as he had hoped.
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While I tend to have a more positive (or is it naive) look at the intentions of people you may very well be right. Well, another experience to cross off...
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Our own version of Bitcoins... valueless to the vast population, seen as currency and lusted after by a chosen few!
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The buying/selling of NFT's has been loosely compared to Ponzi schemes.
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Also comparable to when they sold "shares" of the infamous British Guiana stamp rarity;
you owned a 'virtual' tiny piece of it - but it wasn't something tangible you could hold in your hand.
(If you could, your piece would be so small you wouldn't be able to see it anyway!
)
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At the risk of self-combustion, I thought I'd let you know that I accept payment in Bitcoin. I withdraw my cash from an ATM.
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We were in the super market yesterday and an announcement was made the cashiers machines were down and could not accept debit or credit cards...i did not see anyone abandon their shopping carts and leave....i guess most of us do carry some cash or at least a checkbook.
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I also think crypto and NFT's are about the same thing. From what I know an NFT would be a digital image (of just about anything), which is unique and registered somewhere , like a pattern or a piece of land, which it is not. It can be sold to other interested buyers (lunatics) at auctions and in this way it can appreciate or depreciate, just like our stamps.
On one hand , you are the registered owner of a unique piece of digital art. On another, there is an infinity of images out there in the world that are equally unique and can be registered.
Think of a cryptocurrency name, register it and start selling it. If someone bites, you can accumulate some wealth.
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Jules did a nice job of describing the NFTs. And the most essential part is its volatility: you can make, or lose, immense amounts (or percentages). So, it's not so different from the market, gold, commodities, or even currency exchanges. In most cases, we exchange our money (itself an abstract thing whose value is the physical thing only because the US (or whichever) government says it is and we go along with this) for some other abstract thing.
Crude is trading at $121 today; in March of 2020, it was trading at $0. The US president cajoled Russia and Saudi Arabia to reduce production in order to protect US oil interests (there were plusses and minuses to this), and ultimately oil rebounded somewhat. Crypto and NFTs have none of that tangible response, because one can't heat one's house with it or make plastics from it, so it's purely what the market says it is, absent any primary use.
That's neither good nor bad, any more than gold is (gold does have SOME intrinsic value, but less than titanium or lithium, for instance).
it's interesting to me that these things even exist. I think of them like I do derivatives: another way to make money from things that don't really exist in a physical sphere; and where some people wil make a killing and far more people are likely to get killed.
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"it's interesting to me that these things even exist."
It is possible crypto , NFT's or investments of any kind reflect a sickness in our society. Based on how society and economy operate, there are loads of generated "wealth" in some accounts. The wealth is not amassed by actual work; if it was, it would be linked to an hourly rate and there are only so many hours in the day. Wealth is generally accumulated by passive forms of income - interest, rent, trades of land and resources.
When one has all the money, at one point they can put it in anything , influencing the masses, creating a hype and for a while, even some of the small investors can make money with the ups and downs of the new commodity. At one point, the value will go down to zero , because there was no real value in this commodity to begin with and new investments dwindle , or there is another new commodity people now put money into.
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01:57:08pm
I think there is another aspect to this. I was in the antique business for many years and it occurred to me that younger people didn't seem to want to own "things" any more, it seemed to tie them down. So maybe on-line versions of things have replaced the things themselves. Just a thought!!
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"because there was no real value in this commodity to begin with and new investments dwindle"
I hope you realise that the bills in your pocket have no value and, technically, are almost worthless as well? Peoples savings in the US outstrip gold reserves by 5.7:1, or 17.5c for every hard-earned dollar in your bank account. Your savings are a number on a screen until you want them, backed by nothing. If everyone wanted their cash when the banks open tomorrow, either the doors would slam shut to stop a run, or printing presses will be blowing smoke printing mountains of new, worthless, bills to make the 5.7:1 even worse.
This is precisely why many people are getting involved in crypto and cashing out, trading Forex, buying silver and gold (I have silver ingots and a large number of silver coins) and buying safes. Tangible assets held by yourself. If I was in the US I'd probably have a gun nest to the safe as well!
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All I know is, when I go to the store and hand my CASH money over to the cashier, I get my items.
Sorry, but I'll take cash in my pocket any day.
Used to be if you were stopped on the street by the police and had no money in your pocket you could be arrested for vagrancy!
Even so, I still like the old days.
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A few years ago I was at a Foreign Correspondents Club of Thailand meeting with the young governor of the Bank of Thailand. He explained why they wanted cash to play a much smaller part in the economy. It was because of the cost to business of cash management. I had never even heard this was a problem until then. Myself, I like cash, but it's getting harder to deal in it all the time. Here in Thailand PayPal (the equivalent of online cash) is making us jump through so many hoops to just either pay or receive money that many no longer bother.
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"I hope you realise that the bills in your pocket have no value and, technically, are almost worthless as well? Peoples savings in the US outstrip gold reserves by 5.7:1, or 17.5c for every hard-earned dollar in your bank account."
Dave, I know that and those who have millions and billions and are buying NFT's know it too. The important thing is, if all NFT's or cryptocurrencies went down to zero tomorrow, this will likely not affect the average person who is using cash and has savings in US dollars.
Dollars may turn out to be useless too, but the governments do all manipulations needed to make the system run, even with high inflation where savings lose their buying power quickly.
Backing in gold? Gold is most likely worthless too, although it is a physical asset and indestructible. It has been valued for thousands of years, because it was produced in small quantities and was turned into jewelry and other art. Now it is produced in industrial quantities with huge machines at the expense of further polluting the environment and destroying the land. It stays in vaults in the form of gold bullions.
Imagine we had currencies associated with the animal and plant species. Lions, tigers, bears, whales, sharks and so on. If the number of those species went up, your investment will generate profit. You had investments worth 20 moose last year, this year, the moose population doubled and you now have 40 moose! Not bad, eh?
Imagine how that was going to look globally. Your investments were always going to be going down, because habitat shrinks and those animal populations also shrink and go down to nothing.
So this is why we now invest in crypto and NFT-s. The real physical assets are for the most part depleted.
Of course , if you had an extra moose, it was going to feed you and your family through the year. If you have just crypto, cash, gold, you will be left with nothing at the time when the food shortage we've created hits us.
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The so-called food shortage has already hit here. Lettuces $12, minced beef $29 a kilo. I can visualise me shaving a sliver off my gold block to pay for a loaf of bread from the local cave-based no-cash baker one day
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The previous messages made me ponder what would happen if our world economy was reduced to a barter system? In those systems, one could trade their skilled work for other goods or services. As a retired tradesman, I DO have barter-able skills, but what about all the folks who work in modern information type jobs, academia or other work? It’s like the equivalent of crypto goods vs real goods. Can you imagine a Wall Street investment banker trying to trade his skills in a barter system? Hmmm that would make a great theme for a post apocalyptic novel!
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I found this on CBC this morning as their #1 article for the day
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/markets ...
Who would have thought?
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Today I received a newsletter from PostNL the Dutch postal service. In it they proudly announce their "crypto stamp". I had a little OMG / handpalm moment. I think it is a classic example of poor timing, with all the crypto currencies and exchanges scrambling for the exit.
You can read it here: https://www.postnl.nl/en/about-postnl/pr ...
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"Today I received a newsletter from PostNL the Dutch postal service."
I read it and I find it as clear as mud.
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"In it they proudly announce their "crypto stamp". I had a little OMG / handpalm moment."
so maybe forever stamps are a better investment near term; US first class will rise from .58 to .60 on July 10 with PC and second ounce rates going up even more. By then you'll likely be hard put to finance a letter with your crypto stash.
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We have "forever" stamps here as well. They have no real name, just a designation: "1", meaning 1 stamp for 1 standard domestic letter. When this was introduced in 2010, such a stamp cost 44 eurocents. They can still be used on letters, only now the rate for a standard letter is 96 cents. So that means one could have made 118% profit on stamps bought 12 years ago. So mint recent stamps would have been a very good investment. Unfortunately I have used all the older "1" stamps on letters already, so I just have to buy them for the current rate.
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"When this was introduced in 2010, such a stamp cost 44 eurocents. They can still be used on letters, only now the rate for a standard letter is 96 cents. So that means one could have made 118% profit on stamps bought 12 years ago. So mint recent stamps would have been a very good investment. "
And the stamps that are denominational are now selling for 60% of face value!
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Sorry, but what exactly do you mean with "denominational"? I suppose it has nothing to do with churches, as that is how I understand it, like some kind of Christian denomination: Lutheran, Anglican, Catholic etc. Presumably it is either with or without a nominal value, I just don't know which.
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i believe he meant denominated (with franking value specified).
i suspect stamps from the Vatican might qualify on both counts
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That makes sense. Here one can buy the older euro value stamps (that are still valid for use) for reduced prices, the lowest I saw was 70%. It is mostly 0.39 and 0.44 euros stuff, so it is a bit of a puzzle to combine these in the best way to make the current rates. But then again, if they are bought at 70 or 75%, a few cents too much still makes it cheaper.
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"You can read it here: https://www.postnl.nl/en/about-postnl/pr ... "
I think I understand how this new crypto stamp will work. They seem to be now targeting not just the stamp collectors, but the NFT investors with it. A stamp is close to an NFT to begin with, but it is not unique (at least the mint ones are not).
However, the stamps we currently have can also attract investors. It is just a matter of proper marketing. If it ever happens and stamps appreciate that much, I will most likely have to sell all I have, as I will definitely not be buying stamps at very high prices just to add them to a collection.
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But the new "Crypto Stamp" that the Netherlands and Austria are issuing aren't actually a "Stamp" in my mind because they obviously can't be used postaly. They can't be used to pay the postage to send an envelope from "A" to "B". Or am I just completely not understanding how they work?
Tim.
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As far as I understood it, there is a stamp which can be used for sending registered mail and an attached NFT that can be claimed / viewed by scanning a qr code that is on the stamp. I am not really sure how it can be unique if one sends the letter with the stamp from A to B, anyone can scan it, or perhaps one gets a message that it has already been taken?
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Here is an example of NFTs in the art world.
https://www.businessinsider.com/what-its ...
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In that article someone is quoted saying that those investing in NFTs must have lost their mind. Many other articles compare the NFT hype with the Tulip Mania in the Netherlands in the 17th century. A look at last week's results for the largest cryptocurrencies suggests the investors in these digital images will end up the same way as the tulip investors of the past: broke.
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I am selling the letters “NFT” as an NFT. Will provably be more successful than my hard-currency “Three-Cent Thursday” sale.
I now accept Cryptocurrency, Cryptonite, and CCR’s vinyl Crypple Creek album as payment.
Your donation to “The Project” may or may not be appreciated (sorry to be cryptic, but I can’t be more specific here).
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Max Miller's (OP) absence here either indicates a sensitive soul and/or one who really was just looking to promote NFTs.
He has not, to my knowledge, responded to any of us, including me, who wrote him privately offering help.
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"As far as I understood it, there is a stamp which can be used for sending registered mail and an attached NFT that can be claimed / viewed by scanning a qr code that is on the stamp. "
Jansimon, This is exactly how I interpret it as well. There is a stamp valid for postage issued in a print volume of lets say 10,000 stamps. Each stamp has a unique bar-code on it associated with a unique image. Scanning the code and referencing the database on blackchain will produce a unique image. How exciting the image will be ? No idea, but it will be unique, and you will be the owner of it.
I do agree that those investing in such NFT's have lost their minds.
Tomorrow I will leave home at 4 AM to drive to a remote spot on the coast and collect NFT's with my digital camera along the way. All of them unique. I will have a bottle or two of wine to drink all by myself, while enjoying myself collecting the free NFT's and not caring a tiny bit if they ever appreciate in value, or disappear without a trace in time. This is where I am going......(from a similar happy trip 3 weeks ago)
"I now accept Cryptocurrency"
Dave , I thought of giving you a few Luna's but thought that may be more appropriate giving as payment to our politicians. Over the past month they went from $60/piece to $0.0000134/piece and I think they continue to go down.
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Are you going on a trip to the Klingon empire?
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"Dave , I thought of giving you a few Luna's but thought that may be more appropriate giving as payment to our politicians. Over the past month they went from $60/piece to $0.0000134/piece and I think they continue to go down."
Just a smidge too volatile!
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"Are you going on a trip to the Klingon empire?"
Almost right JanSimon
Those names you can find in British Columbia.
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Now that everyone knows where to find me, my NFT's may start to depreciate in value......
But I still got a good set of fresh new ones.
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I just do not get these NFT's! Pixels for sale!
Pass!
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
08 Jun 2022
02:40:00pm
re: Looking for a Stamp Expert
I've always considered myself to be a fairly intelligent person, but I really don't understand NFT's! Could someone explain the concept in 50 words or less so I know what this post is about? Please!!! When a person is spending big bucks on one what is he/she really buying?
"As an example, consider one of the most famous art pieces, the Mona Lisa. At any point, it’s possible to commission an artist to recreate the Mona Lisa. You can even take a picture of the Mona Lisa or order a print to hang up on a wall.
As the original, the real Mona Lisa will always be more valued and sought after than any recreations or printouts - this is due to provenance and originality. NFTs provide a similar uniqueness for digital images that were once only reserved for physical art"
I grabbed this on line and it makes no sense to me at all!!! Could someone explain please
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
08 Jun 2022
03:37:56pm
re: Looking for a Stamp Expert
"minted to a blockchain"
HUH?
On line explanation of above:
"Minting crypto is the process of generating new coins by authenticating data, creating new blocks, and recording the information onto the blockchain through a “proof of stake” protocol.Jan 19, 2"
Double HUH?
I really don't understand, sorry!! It must be an age thing!!
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re: Looking for a Stamp Expert
"When a person is spending big bucks on one what is he/she really buying?"
You are buying the hope that you will find another gullible person who will pay more for this thing than you.
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re: Looking for a Stamp Expert
Problem with a stamp expert is that you can find many, but they are only expert within a small field. Even different experts will differ in opinions on stamps.
I would suggest that you start your query with the many Philatelic Societies, such as the APS or Royal Society. Expect to pay for the advice, knowledge does not come cheap.
Personally NFT's and Crypto currencies are just the current fad, the latter in my opinion being not much more than a pyramid system where the coins are generated by the blockchain.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
08 Jun 2022
04:40:24pm
re: Looking for a Stamp Expert
"a stamp expert"
"“An expert is one who knows more and more about less and less until he knows absolutely everything about nothing"
The above is a quote by Nicholas Butler and it seems to say it all!
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re: Looking for a Stamp Expert
This NFT cost the original buyer lots but a huge loss if he wishes to sell now.
https://nftevening.com/jack-dorseys-firs ...
Like stamps they are only worth what someone is willing to pay.
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re: Looking for a Stamp Expert
Saying that NFT is another word for scam won't be too far from the truth, and now that I think of it, I am the proud owner or an NFT bought in Paris 1n 1996.
If there are any takers I can make copies and sell them for pennies over what it cost to me to make them.
Sorry for the glare in the picture, I'm not an expert in photography either.
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07:02:03pm
re: Looking for a Stamp Expert
Geez, I feel kinda bad for SnowcrashMax. Guess he thought we were a bunch of young hipsters - not oldies with hip problems...
Wonder if he paid his dues in advance, and with bitcoin...
But seriously, despite what we all think about this new commodity (probably mostly WTF rather than NFT) he needs to be very specific about what expertise he is looking for, as has been noted herein.
With the Holocaust Stamps Project being involved both in making art from stamps, and creating a "Philatelic History of The Holocaust" I could offer some assistance if this is a legit proposition. We'll see if he contacts me through a PM.
Cheers, Dave.
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re: Looking for a Stamp Expert
If my T. Rowe Price guy posts here i hope its about stamps and covers.
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09:04:05pm
re: Looking for a Stamp Expert
"If there are any takers..."
Hey StampCollector. I just bit a coin. So does that mean you'll send me your NWTFT now?
Thanks, Dave.
P.S. It chipped my tooth. Does your health care plan cover that?
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09:28:50pm
re: Looking for a Stamp Expert
Whew. Sounds like a lot of hooey.
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re: Looking for a Stamp Expert
The movie "The Flim Flam Man " with George C Scott was a great movie.
Check it out
Fredcdobbs
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re: Looking for a Stamp Expert
Na Na Na Dave, you are supposed to lick the stamps, not bite them!
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re: Looking for a Stamp Expert
Bitcoin is an intangible and purchasing it is pure speculation. There is no government with taxing authority standing behind it, as there is with US Dollars, British Pounds, or the Japanese Yen.
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re: Looking for a Stamp Expert
I think the message is clear, noone here either understands or likes the concepts of bitcoin and nft. Fair enough, I have difficulties seeing the added value as well. But in the mean time, we had a member who asked for help and it seems that the answers here (remarks rather) have chased him away: the original question and his follow up messages have been removed. One could say that putting such a message about non-fungible tokens on a stamp discussion board was asking for trouble, but then again, shouldn't Max have been given the benefit of the doubt? He was clearly hoping to find someone that could help him and was not soliciting an appraisal of his work.
Anyway, the discussion has become meaningless without the starting message.
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08:31:51am
re: Looking for a Stamp Expert
Good points J-S. I did offer to help but never heard from him.
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re: Looking for a Stamp Expert
Hi Dave,
I offered help in a personal message as well, but have not heard back from him either. Looking at the available info, I think Max joined in order to drop his question here, he is still in the introduction month and has not yet paid to be a member. I doubt he will.
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re: Looking for a Stamp Expert
i also wrote him an inquiry asking more about his specific needs; i haven't heard back either
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
10 Jun 2022
10:43:04am
re: Looking for a Stamp Expert
And I had to read the entire thread to discover what an "NFT" actually was, or is:: NFT = Non-Fungible Tokin
fungible / fun-jib-bal
adjectiveLAW
(of goods contracted for without an individual specimen being specified) able to replace or be replaced by another identical item; mutually interchangeable.
"it is by no means the world's only fungible commodity"
I feel so much smarter now !
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re: Looking for a Stamp Expert
" He was clearly hoping to find someone that could help him"
This is not at all clear to me. His ruse seems utterly transparent to me. I am confident that he was not looking for a "stamp expert", but was using a free trial membership as an opportunity to promote NFTs. This this evidenced by his lack of response to members who offered to help. Stamporama members are not as gullible as he had hoped.
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re: Looking for a Stamp Expert
While I tend to have a more positive (or is it naive) look at the intentions of people you may very well be right. Well, another experience to cross off...
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re: Looking for a Stamp Expert
Our own version of Bitcoins... valueless to the vast population, seen as currency and lusted after by a chosen few!
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The buying/selling of NFT's has been loosely compared to Ponzi schemes.
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Also comparable to when they sold "shares" of the infamous British Guiana stamp rarity;
you owned a 'virtual' tiny piece of it - but it wasn't something tangible you could hold in your hand.
(If you could, your piece would be so small you wouldn't be able to see it anyway! )
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At the risk of self-combustion, I thought I'd let you know that I accept payment in Bitcoin. I withdraw my cash from an ATM.
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We were in the super market yesterday and an announcement was made the cashiers machines were down and could not accept debit or credit cards...i did not see anyone abandon their shopping carts and leave....i guess most of us do carry some cash or at least a checkbook.
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I also think crypto and NFT's are about the same thing. From what I know an NFT would be a digital image (of just about anything), which is unique and registered somewhere , like a pattern or a piece of land, which it is not. It can be sold to other interested buyers (lunatics) at auctions and in this way it can appreciate or depreciate, just like our stamps.
On one hand , you are the registered owner of a unique piece of digital art. On another, there is an infinity of images out there in the world that are equally unique and can be registered.
Think of a cryptocurrency name, register it and start selling it. If someone bites, you can accumulate some wealth.
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re: Looking for a Stamp Expert
Jules did a nice job of describing the NFTs. And the most essential part is its volatility: you can make, or lose, immense amounts (or percentages). So, it's not so different from the market, gold, commodities, or even currency exchanges. In most cases, we exchange our money (itself an abstract thing whose value is the physical thing only because the US (or whichever) government says it is and we go along with this) for some other abstract thing.
Crude is trading at $121 today; in March of 2020, it was trading at $0. The US president cajoled Russia and Saudi Arabia to reduce production in order to protect US oil interests (there were plusses and minuses to this), and ultimately oil rebounded somewhat. Crypto and NFTs have none of that tangible response, because one can't heat one's house with it or make plastics from it, so it's purely what the market says it is, absent any primary use.
That's neither good nor bad, any more than gold is (gold does have SOME intrinsic value, but less than titanium or lithium, for instance).
it's interesting to me that these things even exist. I think of them like I do derivatives: another way to make money from things that don't really exist in a physical sphere; and where some people wil make a killing and far more people are likely to get killed.
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"it's interesting to me that these things even exist."
It is possible crypto , NFT's or investments of any kind reflect a sickness in our society. Based on how society and economy operate, there are loads of generated "wealth" in some accounts. The wealth is not amassed by actual work; if it was, it would be linked to an hourly rate and there are only so many hours in the day. Wealth is generally accumulated by passive forms of income - interest, rent, trades of land and resources.
When one has all the money, at one point they can put it in anything , influencing the masses, creating a hype and for a while, even some of the small investors can make money with the ups and downs of the new commodity. At one point, the value will go down to zero , because there was no real value in this commodity to begin with and new investments dwindle , or there is another new commodity people now put money into.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
12 Jun 2022
01:57:08pm
re: Looking for a Stamp Expert
I think there is another aspect to this. I was in the antique business for many years and it occurred to me that younger people didn't seem to want to own "things" any more, it seemed to tie them down. So maybe on-line versions of things have replaced the things themselves. Just a thought!!
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"because there was no real value in this commodity to begin with and new investments dwindle"
I hope you realise that the bills in your pocket have no value and, technically, are almost worthless as well? Peoples savings in the US outstrip gold reserves by 5.7:1, or 17.5c for every hard-earned dollar in your bank account. Your savings are a number on a screen until you want them, backed by nothing. If everyone wanted their cash when the banks open tomorrow, either the doors would slam shut to stop a run, or printing presses will be blowing smoke printing mountains of new, worthless, bills to make the 5.7:1 even worse.
This is precisely why many people are getting involved in crypto and cashing out, trading Forex, buying silver and gold (I have silver ingots and a large number of silver coins) and buying safes. Tangible assets held by yourself. If I was in the US I'd probably have a gun nest to the safe as well!
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All I know is, when I go to the store and hand my CASH money over to the cashier, I get my items.
Sorry, but I'll take cash in my pocket any day.
Used to be if you were stopped on the street by the police and had no money in your pocket you could be arrested for vagrancy!
Even so, I still like the old days.
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A few years ago I was at a Foreign Correspondents Club of Thailand meeting with the young governor of the Bank of Thailand. He explained why they wanted cash to play a much smaller part in the economy. It was because of the cost to business of cash management. I had never even heard this was a problem until then. Myself, I like cash, but it's getting harder to deal in it all the time. Here in Thailand PayPal (the equivalent of online cash) is making us jump through so many hoops to just either pay or receive money that many no longer bother.
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"I hope you realise that the bills in your pocket have no value and, technically, are almost worthless as well? Peoples savings in the US outstrip gold reserves by 5.7:1, or 17.5c for every hard-earned dollar in your bank account."
Dave, I know that and those who have millions and billions and are buying NFT's know it too. The important thing is, if all NFT's or cryptocurrencies went down to zero tomorrow, this will likely not affect the average person who is using cash and has savings in US dollars.
Dollars may turn out to be useless too, but the governments do all manipulations needed to make the system run, even with high inflation where savings lose their buying power quickly.
Backing in gold? Gold is most likely worthless too, although it is a physical asset and indestructible. It has been valued for thousands of years, because it was produced in small quantities and was turned into jewelry and other art. Now it is produced in industrial quantities with huge machines at the expense of further polluting the environment and destroying the land. It stays in vaults in the form of gold bullions.
Imagine we had currencies associated with the animal and plant species. Lions, tigers, bears, whales, sharks and so on. If the number of those species went up, your investment will generate profit. You had investments worth 20 moose last year, this year, the moose population doubled and you now have 40 moose! Not bad, eh?
Imagine how that was going to look globally. Your investments were always going to be going down, because habitat shrinks and those animal populations also shrink and go down to nothing.
So this is why we now invest in crypto and NFT-s. The real physical assets are for the most part depleted.
Of course , if you had an extra moose, it was going to feed you and your family through the year. If you have just crypto, cash, gold, you will be left with nothing at the time when the food shortage we've created hits us.
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The so-called food shortage has already hit here. Lettuces $12, minced beef $29 a kilo. I can visualise me shaving a sliver off my gold block to pay for a loaf of bread from the local cave-based no-cash baker one day
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The previous messages made me ponder what would happen if our world economy was reduced to a barter system? In those systems, one could trade their skilled work for other goods or services. As a retired tradesman, I DO have barter-able skills, but what about all the folks who work in modern information type jobs, academia or other work? It’s like the equivalent of crypto goods vs real goods. Can you imagine a Wall Street investment banker trying to trade his skills in a barter system? Hmmm that would make a great theme for a post apocalyptic novel!
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I found this on CBC this morning as their #1 article for the day
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/markets ...
Who would have thought?
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re: Looking for a Stamp Expert
Today I received a newsletter from PostNL the Dutch postal service. In it they proudly announce their "crypto stamp". I had a little OMG / handpalm moment. I think it is a classic example of poor timing, with all the crypto currencies and exchanges scrambling for the exit.
You can read it here: https://www.postnl.nl/en/about-postnl/pr ...
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"Today I received a newsletter from PostNL the Dutch postal service."
I read it and I find it as clear as mud.
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re: Looking for a Stamp Expert
"In it they proudly announce their "crypto stamp". I had a little OMG / handpalm moment."
so maybe forever stamps are a better investment near term; US first class will rise from .58 to .60 on July 10 with PC and second ounce rates going up even more. By then you'll likely be hard put to finance a letter with your crypto stash.
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re: Looking for a Stamp Expert
We have "forever" stamps here as well. They have no real name, just a designation: "1", meaning 1 stamp for 1 standard domestic letter. When this was introduced in 2010, such a stamp cost 44 eurocents. They can still be used on letters, only now the rate for a standard letter is 96 cents. So that means one could have made 118% profit on stamps bought 12 years ago. So mint recent stamps would have been a very good investment. Unfortunately I have used all the older "1" stamps on letters already, so I just have to buy them for the current rate.
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"When this was introduced in 2010, such a stamp cost 44 eurocents. They can still be used on letters, only now the rate for a standard letter is 96 cents. So that means one could have made 118% profit on stamps bought 12 years ago. So mint recent stamps would have been a very good investment. "
And the stamps that are denominational are now selling for 60% of face value!
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Sorry, but what exactly do you mean with "denominational"? I suppose it has nothing to do with churches, as that is how I understand it, like some kind of Christian denomination: Lutheran, Anglican, Catholic etc. Presumably it is either with or without a nominal value, I just don't know which.
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re: Looking for a Stamp Expert
i believe he meant denominated (with franking value specified).
i suspect stamps from the Vatican might qualify on both counts
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That makes sense. Here one can buy the older euro value stamps (that are still valid for use) for reduced prices, the lowest I saw was 70%. It is mostly 0.39 and 0.44 euros stuff, so it is a bit of a puzzle to combine these in the best way to make the current rates. But then again, if they are bought at 70 or 75%, a few cents too much still makes it cheaper.
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"You can read it here: https://www.postnl.nl/en/about-postnl/pr ... "
I think I understand how this new crypto stamp will work. They seem to be now targeting not just the stamp collectors, but the NFT investors with it. A stamp is close to an NFT to begin with, but it is not unique (at least the mint ones are not).
However, the stamps we currently have can also attract investors. It is just a matter of proper marketing. If it ever happens and stamps appreciate that much, I will most likely have to sell all I have, as I will definitely not be buying stamps at very high prices just to add them to a collection.
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But the new "Crypto Stamp" that the Netherlands and Austria are issuing aren't actually a "Stamp" in my mind because they obviously can't be used postaly. They can't be used to pay the postage to send an envelope from "A" to "B". Or am I just completely not understanding how they work?
Tim.
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As far as I understood it, there is a stamp which can be used for sending registered mail and an attached NFT that can be claimed / viewed by scanning a qr code that is on the stamp. I am not really sure how it can be unique if one sends the letter with the stamp from A to B, anyone can scan it, or perhaps one gets a message that it has already been taken?
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Here is an example of NFTs in the art world.
https://www.businessinsider.com/what-its ...
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In that article someone is quoted saying that those investing in NFTs must have lost their mind. Many other articles compare the NFT hype with the Tulip Mania in the Netherlands in the 17th century. A look at last week's results for the largest cryptocurrencies suggests the investors in these digital images will end up the same way as the tulip investors of the past: broke.
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re: Looking for a Stamp Expert
I am selling the letters “NFT” as an NFT. Will provably be more successful than my hard-currency “Three-Cent Thursday” sale.
I now accept Cryptocurrency, Cryptonite, and CCR’s vinyl Crypple Creek album as payment.
Your donation to “The Project” may or may not be appreciated (sorry to be cryptic, but I can’t be more specific here).
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re: Looking for a Stamp Expert
Max Miller's (OP) absence here either indicates a sensitive soul and/or one who really was just looking to promote NFTs.
He has not, to my knowledge, responded to any of us, including me, who wrote him privately offering help.
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"As far as I understood it, there is a stamp which can be used for sending registered mail and an attached NFT that can be claimed / viewed by scanning a qr code that is on the stamp. "
Jansimon, This is exactly how I interpret it as well. There is a stamp valid for postage issued in a print volume of lets say 10,000 stamps. Each stamp has a unique bar-code on it associated with a unique image. Scanning the code and referencing the database on blackchain will produce a unique image. How exciting the image will be ? No idea, but it will be unique, and you will be the owner of it.
I do agree that those investing in such NFT's have lost their minds.
Tomorrow I will leave home at 4 AM to drive to a remote spot on the coast and collect NFT's with my digital camera along the way. All of them unique. I will have a bottle or two of wine to drink all by myself, while enjoying myself collecting the free NFT's and not caring a tiny bit if they ever appreciate in value, or disappear without a trace in time. This is where I am going......(from a similar happy trip 3 weeks ago)
"I now accept Cryptocurrency"
Dave , I thought of giving you a few Luna's but thought that may be more appropriate giving as payment to our politicians. Over the past month they went from $60/piece to $0.0000134/piece and I think they continue to go down.
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Are you going on a trip to the Klingon empire?
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"Dave , I thought of giving you a few Luna's but thought that may be more appropriate giving as payment to our politicians. Over the past month they went from $60/piece to $0.0000134/piece and I think they continue to go down."
Just a smidge too volatile!
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"Are you going on a trip to the Klingon empire?"
Almost right JanSimon
Those names you can find in British Columbia.
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Now that everyone knows where to find me, my NFT's may start to depreciate in value......
But I still got a good set of fresh new ones.
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