Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
(Modified by Moderator on 2020-04-10 21:03:59)
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Very good video. He describes what is commonly seen when people who are not in the hobby find an older stamp album. I have seen many albums just as he shows/describes, and many that were in worse condition. Of course the owners of such albums believe that they have hit the lottery, and it is a tough nut for them to swallow when they are told that there is little to no value in such an album.
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Did he say GBP 500 for those 1,000+ stamps? I thought GBP 20 would have been generous.
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From his description 20 pounds definitely sounds more realistic than 500 pounds.
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First he says it is a schoolboy's collection in poor condition with hardly anything interesting in it and then he valuates it at 500 pounds. Does not make any sense to me. The album does not have any value, many stamps stuck to the pages... i must have missed something or else I need to go there and sell my stuff for a fortune.
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I didn't find the video very helpful or insightful and he was more than a little cavalier when flipping through those album pages. Looks to me like he uses the "by guess and by golly" evaluation technique.
FF
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He goes straight to the high values. Yep, that's how ya price out a collection.
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I think that philb way to sell a collection is much more accurate and effective.
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02:20:09pm
If you expect to see junk, then all you will see is junk. If I took one of my collections to be evaluated and he just flipped the pages like that I would be a bit upset. Yes, most of the stuff that people bring me to look at is garbage worth very little, but at least I treat the collection with a certain amount of respect. The collection was treasured by someone at some time and deserves at least a proper look.
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Dear All,
I believe that we may not all be evaluating oranges to oranges. The initial evaluation of the value (500 pounds) may well be the cat. val. as listed, rather than the sales value to a collector. The critiques of that value may be from the purchaser perspective, approx. 20 pounds, rather than the cat. val. Might that clear up the question that JanSimon posed?
All in all, I tend to agree with Michael & Ernieinjax about the video. Thank you Charlie2009 for bringing it to our attention.
Best,
Dan C.
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a pot luck BID would be 10-15% ESTIMATE
Vintage albums - pre-1900 offer facsimiles as illustrations of scarce items - postal history
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I am also confused on how he came up with the value for a poor collection? If you told someone it is worth £500 they would be happy. To me, you tell the person what a dealer would pay.
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10:45:49am
I wonder if the fellow who created the video might not have taped it several times with different collections and when splicing the best together did not realize just how ridiculous his comments sounded to knowledgeable stampers.
I've seen this kind of cavalier attitude from one dealer on Long Island years ago. If he did not see something that he could turn over quickly he would politely either decline or offer $10 or $20 to the, by then, usually crest fallen seller, especially if the seller was the actual collector.
George would often look to me and sort of nod which was the okay for me to take a shot at it.and I would look myself, taking a bit of time and then offer what I thought it was worth ... to me. Obviously I had neither the desire nor the need to turn a quick profit that day. I have no idea how many actually decent items I picked up that way.
Over time I noticed that when he did make a $50 or more purchase, as soon as the seller was out the doorway, George would be on the phone to some NY city dealer (I guess) and try to unload the "collection" and it was amazing at how much better he would describe it in order to sell it.
His problem was, first of all, he was, ( I was going to write somewhat underfunded ), but it would probably be more accurate to say desperately underfunded, since I lent him enough money several times to pay the whole months rent for the little shop in a quiet string of stores. and when he brought his car to my shop for long overdue repairs, I knew it would involve a few weeks payments and probably taking some stamp album in trade for an overdue balance.
About the "$10 or $20" mentioned, that was in the 1970's and gas sold for $0.33 9/10s a gallon or so, so if you do the math that would be a hundred or two in today's inflated economy.
I occasionally look back on those few hours on Saturday mornings with some regret that they did not last forever.
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I am of the opinion that each stamp collection's value should be assessed
under it's own individual merit....or lack thereof.
No 2 collections are EXACTLY alike.
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"Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy.."
Charlie, I invoke the 5th.
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"Charlie, I invoke the 5th."
What has Beethoven got to do with this, did he collect stamps?
Edit, this is kinda neat;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcBn04IyELc
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Music is not what I had in mind!
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Somebody call me??
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When a childhood friend and fellow club member passed away several years ago his wife was left with a room full of stamp albums to deal with. Our club contacted an appraiser who did it as a favor(about 45 minutes of fanning album pages) and a dealer..at separate times of course. Amazing that both of them came up with a figure of "about 12 thousand dollars".Presented with these facts the family said if thats all they are worth we may as well keep them. To the best of my knowledge the stamp room is still locked. We club members tried to get them a fair deal and why they did what they did i do not know .
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The people who do this for a living don't sweat the small stuff. The first time I had to sell a portion of my collection/stock for bill paying money I spent 2 days figuring out what a fair price was.... I think it was 3 bankers boxes with red boxes, small counter books, some covers, some collections, etc. I thought that a fair price would be in the $2500 to $3000 range.
I took it into the dealer right after lunch figuring on spending the afternoon and answering questions, etc. By the time I brought in the third box he had already gone through the first box and was starting on the second one... in less than 15 minutes I had a check for his offer of $3000 (I had not mentioned price)and was on my way home... I did ask him how he did that - he said he figured it 2 ways - "X" dollars per red box and "X" dollars per counter book plus the balance - then he figured per box pricing based on general feel. He also noted that I did not include some "Better" items (and he was correct).I asked what he did with them (he also dealt in antique cars) and he said they would be on their way to NYC that evening and he would either quick turn them or let them go to auction.. what a lesson...
I miss those days .....
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11:11:24pm
Good story. That's how it's done.
As I tell many sellers: "I will go through 30+ lots at an auction viewing in an afternoon, each consisting of multiple boxes, and more often than not, be either the underbidder (who is in fact the price setter) or the buyer of any lot that particularly suits my needs".
Roy
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But do they generally pull individual stamps out and look at the backsides?
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08:08:58am
"Do they generally pull individual stamps out and look at the backsides?"
Yes, at two levels:
1) surveying a few medium value stamps to get a feel for the average condition (i.e. how selective was the collector?)
2) inspecting every stamp that has a high enough cash value to impact on the total value of the lot. i.e. if it is a $250 lot based on the average contents, I am going to look at any stamp that might add $50 to the value by itself. If it is a $5,000 lot, that threshold will probably be about $250 (cash value, not catalogue).
This is why collections stored in such a way that a quick survey is difficult (or impossible), such as a collection in Crystal Mounts, do poorly. The buyers must assume the worst (usually true for Crystal Mount'ed collections). If I open an album and see those, I am on to the next lot. Leave the "bargain" to somebody else. I have also seen collections with the stamps individually wrapped in cellophane... pass .. not worth my time or risk unless the price is a gift.
It is important to keep in mind that buying an entire collection (or dealer lot like that described by Webpaper) is different from buying individual stamps. The value of a collection IS NOT the sum of the values of each individual stamp at some "wholesale" discount. Many of the stamps will never be sold individually -- ask any Stamporama or ebay seller. There is an enormous amount of work involved in breaking down and selling stamps individually.
Roy
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Roy,
Thanks for the "insider's perspective". These are very important considerations if/when you want to sell.
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I think most people have already mentioned my objections to this, but I'll put in my couple of thoughts
First 500 pounds.... others mentioned 20-30 pounds. I think the latter range is more likely accurate. So, if he's trying to help us, but provides a target that's a multiple of 25X overpriced, what use is that?
Second, unless there's spectacular material, I've heard 4% of CV is the going rate to actaully be able to make a profit (assuming we're not talking rarities)
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David, 4 or 5 percent sounds reasonable to me...with the current economic conditions i wonder if more stamps will be dumped on the market ?
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"Second, unless there's spectacular material, I've heard 4% of CV is the going rate ..."
That sounds unbelievably low. I'm not saying its wrong but just speaking about U.S. used pre-1940, even stamps that are clearly damaged, poorly centered and/or unceremoniously cancelled can fetch up to 20% cat. val. on eBay or other public auction. If I go to sell my stuff, even to a dealer, I'm sure I'll get more than 4% and you've seen some of my collection; it's much less than spectacular.
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11:09:18am
".... fetch up to 20% cat. val. on eBay or other public auction ...."
Selling on eBay takes work, and sometimes aggravation, at an auction,
a 20% to 30% fee plus shipping to the auction unless there is one
across the street.
There is a lot the average collector does not consider that a
business person lives with every day.
One in particular is the question. " Just how long will that
collection of hand painted Grand Fenwick first day covers be
in my inventory tying up my money ?"
Another is; "I already have three very nice general collections
just like this, sitting in the back room gathering dust, do I
need a third ?"
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"Selling on eBay takes work, and sometimes aggravation, at an auction,
a 20% to 30% fee plus shipping to the auction unless there is one
across the street."
Very valid point!
"Just how long will that collection of hand painted Grand Fenwick first day covers be
in my inventory"
My comment was geared toward in demand, easily turned items/collections. I honestly don't know how some stuff sells at any price. You see mountains of it for sale online and at shows and no takers at any price.
I have never tried to sell stamps to a dealer. I'm sure I would be in for a very rude awakening.
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Ernie - I've been doing this since 1985 - that is ..... let's just say a lot of years. I used to do shows now it is strictly mail order. Doing shows is a lot better because you turn a lot of stock - much of it dealer to dealer (especially the last day of a three day show)
In all this time 95 per cent or better of what I buy is bought from other dealers 0 and a good majority of what I sell is sold to other dealers. Odd - huh?
You know why - it's because I can buy material cheaper from another dealer than I can from a collector. a dealer buys for existing customers and sells to other dealers who have customers for material they can't sell. Supply and demand - stamps are a commodity to a dealer (OK - most of us have collections of stuff we find appealing). If a customer of mine suddenly says - hey - do you have any ??? I may not but I know where I can get some. quick.
It's a strange world .....
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Carol,
Yep, the laws of supply and demand will prevail. Dealers must have material and they are competing with others to obtain it.
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i have heard that at the A.P.S. shows much of the sales that take place are dealer to dealer in the few hours before the show opens. i have been around shows since the 70's and i have seen dealers drop off boxes of stuff to other dealers to go through..there has to be a lot of trust involved.
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A few years ago I bought a USA collection on eBay. It was in a Scott Minuteman album and looked like it was assembled by a teen collector in the early 70s just as I had done. This was back when I was just starting to fill in my current US collection, so I was hoping to pull from this lot. I had noticed that the mint stamps were all in mounts, just like I would’ve done back then. The collection didn’t have any rare or expensive stamps.
The lot also included a bunch of loose material including a stack of first day covers and several foreign souvenir cards of stamps under cellophane like someone brought them back to grandson from a cruise.
I got the lot cheaper than I anticipated. Something like $25 plus postage. It comes in the mail and I got a rude awakening, all of those nice mint stamps in mounts had bad multiple hinge marks in the back! It was like the Minuteman album was this collector’s third album and he just discover mounts! Nothing in the album was usable! Fortunately the extra stuff that came with the lot was worthwhile. And there was a large unmarked envelope stuck in the back of the album with a bunch of Farley imperf pairs and such that was worth more than I paid alone!
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(Modified by Moderator on 2020-04-10 21:03:59)
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09:08:40pm
re: How to Value a Collection in under a Minute.....!
Very good video. He describes what is commonly seen when people who are not in the hobby find an older stamp album. I have seen many albums just as he shows/describes, and many that were in worse condition. Of course the owners of such albums believe that they have hit the lottery, and it is a tough nut for them to swallow when they are told that there is little to no value in such an album.
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re: How to Value a Collection in under a Minute.....!
Did he say GBP 500 for those 1,000+ stamps? I thought GBP 20 would have been generous.
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re: How to Value a Collection in under a Minute.....!
From his description 20 pounds definitely sounds more realistic than 500 pounds.
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re: How to Value a Collection in under a Minute.....!
First he says it is a schoolboy's collection in poor condition with hardly anything interesting in it and then he valuates it at 500 pounds. Does not make any sense to me. The album does not have any value, many stamps stuck to the pages... i must have missed something or else I need to go there and sell my stuff for a fortune.
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re: How to Value a Collection in under a Minute.....!
I didn't find the video very helpful or insightful and he was more than a little cavalier when flipping through those album pages. Looks to me like he uses the "by guess and by golly" evaluation technique.
FF
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11:27:45am
re: How to Value a Collection in under a Minute.....!
He goes straight to the high values. Yep, that's how ya price out a collection.
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re: How to Value a Collection in under a Minute.....!
I think that philb way to sell a collection is much more accurate and effective.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
11 Apr 2020
02:20:09pm
re: How to Value a Collection in under a Minute.....!
If you expect to see junk, then all you will see is junk. If I took one of my collections to be evaluated and he just flipped the pages like that I would be a bit upset. Yes, most of the stuff that people bring me to look at is garbage worth very little, but at least I treat the collection with a certain amount of respect. The collection was treasured by someone at some time and deserves at least a proper look.
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re: How to Value a Collection in under a Minute.....!
Dear All,
I believe that we may not all be evaluating oranges to oranges. The initial evaluation of the value (500 pounds) may well be the cat. val. as listed, rather than the sales value to a collector. The critiques of that value may be from the purchaser perspective, approx. 20 pounds, rather than the cat. val. Might that clear up the question that JanSimon posed?
All in all, I tend to agree with Michael & Ernieinjax about the video. Thank you Charlie2009 for bringing it to our attention.
Best,
Dan C.
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re: How to Value a Collection in under a Minute.....!
a pot luck BID would be 10-15% ESTIMATE
Vintage albums - pre-1900 offer facsimiles as illustrations of scarce items - postal history
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re: How to Value a Collection in under a Minute.....!
I am also confused on how he came up with the value for a poor collection? If you told someone it is worth £500 they would be happy. To me, you tell the person what a dealer would pay.
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
12 Apr 2020
10:45:49am
re: How to Value a Collection in under a Minute.....!
I wonder if the fellow who created the video might not have taped it several times with different collections and when splicing the best together did not realize just how ridiculous his comments sounded to knowledgeable stampers.
I've seen this kind of cavalier attitude from one dealer on Long Island years ago. If he did not see something that he could turn over quickly he would politely either decline or offer $10 or $20 to the, by then, usually crest fallen seller, especially if the seller was the actual collector.
George would often look to me and sort of nod which was the okay for me to take a shot at it.and I would look myself, taking a bit of time and then offer what I thought it was worth ... to me. Obviously I had neither the desire nor the need to turn a quick profit that day. I have no idea how many actually decent items I picked up that way.
Over time I noticed that when he did make a $50 or more purchase, as soon as the seller was out the doorway, George would be on the phone to some NY city dealer (I guess) and try to unload the "collection" and it was amazing at how much better he would describe it in order to sell it.
His problem was, first of all, he was, ( I was going to write somewhat underfunded ), but it would probably be more accurate to say desperately underfunded, since I lent him enough money several times to pay the whole months rent for the little shop in a quiet string of stores. and when he brought his car to my shop for long overdue repairs, I knew it would involve a few weeks payments and probably taking some stamp album in trade for an overdue balance.
About the "$10 or $20" mentioned, that was in the 1970's and gas sold for $0.33 9/10s a gallon or so, so if you do the math that would be a hundred or two in today's inflated economy.
I occasionally look back on those few hours on Saturday mornings with some regret that they did not last forever.
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re: How to Value a Collection in under a Minute.....!
I am of the opinion that each stamp collection's value should be assessed
under it's own individual merit....or lack thereof.
No 2 collections are EXACTLY alike.
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re: How to Value a Collection in under a Minute.....!
"Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy.."
Charlie, I invoke the 5th.
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re: How to Value a Collection in under a Minute.....!
"Charlie, I invoke the 5th."
What has Beethoven got to do with this, did he collect stamps?
Edit, this is kinda neat;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcBn04IyELc
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re: How to Value a Collection in under a Minute.....!
Music is not what I had in mind!
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re: How to Value a Collection in under a Minute.....!
Somebody call me??
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re: How to Value a Collection in under a Minute.....!
When a childhood friend and fellow club member passed away several years ago his wife was left with a room full of stamp albums to deal with. Our club contacted an appraiser who did it as a favor(about 45 minutes of fanning album pages) and a dealer..at separate times of course. Amazing that both of them came up with a figure of "about 12 thousand dollars".Presented with these facts the family said if thats all they are worth we may as well keep them. To the best of my knowledge the stamp room is still locked. We club members tried to get them a fair deal and why they did what they did i do not know .
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10:04:20pm
re: How to Value a Collection in under a Minute.....!
The people who do this for a living don't sweat the small stuff. The first time I had to sell a portion of my collection/stock for bill paying money I spent 2 days figuring out what a fair price was.... I think it was 3 bankers boxes with red boxes, small counter books, some covers, some collections, etc. I thought that a fair price would be in the $2500 to $3000 range.
I took it into the dealer right after lunch figuring on spending the afternoon and answering questions, etc. By the time I brought in the third box he had already gone through the first box and was starting on the second one... in less than 15 minutes I had a check for his offer of $3000 (I had not mentioned price)and was on my way home... I did ask him how he did that - he said he figured it 2 ways - "X" dollars per red box and "X" dollars per counter book plus the balance - then he figured per box pricing based on general feel. He also noted that I did not include some "Better" items (and he was correct).I asked what he did with them (he also dealt in antique cars) and he said they would be on their way to NYC that evening and he would either quick turn them or let them go to auction.. what a lesson...
I miss those days .....
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BuckaCover.com - 80,000 covers priced 60c to $1.50 - Easy browsing 500 categories
13 Apr 2020
11:11:24pm
re: How to Value a Collection in under a Minute.....!
Good story. That's how it's done.
As I tell many sellers: "I will go through 30+ lots at an auction viewing in an afternoon, each consisting of multiple boxes, and more often than not, be either the underbidder (who is in fact the price setter) or the buyer of any lot that particularly suits my needs".
Roy
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04:02:00am
re: How to Value a Collection in under a Minute.....!
But do they generally pull individual stamps out and look at the backsides?
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BuckaCover.com - 80,000 covers priced 60c to $1.50 - Easy browsing 500 categories
14 Apr 2020
08:08:58am
re: How to Value a Collection in under a Minute.....!
"Do they generally pull individual stamps out and look at the backsides?"
Yes, at two levels:
1) surveying a few medium value stamps to get a feel for the average condition (i.e. how selective was the collector?)
2) inspecting every stamp that has a high enough cash value to impact on the total value of the lot. i.e. if it is a $250 lot based on the average contents, I am going to look at any stamp that might add $50 to the value by itself. If it is a $5,000 lot, that threshold will probably be about $250 (cash value, not catalogue).
This is why collections stored in such a way that a quick survey is difficult (or impossible), such as a collection in Crystal Mounts, do poorly. The buyers must assume the worst (usually true for Crystal Mount'ed collections). If I open an album and see those, I am on to the next lot. Leave the "bargain" to somebody else. I have also seen collections with the stamps individually wrapped in cellophane... pass .. not worth my time or risk unless the price is a gift.
It is important to keep in mind that buying an entire collection (or dealer lot like that described by Webpaper) is different from buying individual stamps. The value of a collection IS NOT the sum of the values of each individual stamp at some "wholesale" discount. Many of the stamps will never be sold individually -- ask any Stamporama or ebay seller. There is an enormous amount of work involved in breaking down and selling stamps individually.
Roy
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08:13:01am
re: How to Value a Collection in under a Minute.....!
Roy,
Thanks for the "insider's perspective". These are very important considerations if/when you want to sell.
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re: How to Value a Collection in under a Minute.....!
I think most people have already mentioned my objections to this, but I'll put in my couple of thoughts
First 500 pounds.... others mentioned 20-30 pounds. I think the latter range is more likely accurate. So, if he's trying to help us, but provides a target that's a multiple of 25X overpriced, what use is that?
Second, unless there's spectacular material, I've heard 4% of CV is the going rate to actaully be able to make a profit (assuming we're not talking rarities)
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re: How to Value a Collection in under a Minute.....!
David, 4 or 5 percent sounds reasonable to me...with the current economic conditions i wonder if more stamps will be dumped on the market ?
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10:47:24am
re: How to Value a Collection in under a Minute.....!
"Second, unless there's spectacular material, I've heard 4% of CV is the going rate ..."
That sounds unbelievably low. I'm not saying its wrong but just speaking about U.S. used pre-1940, even stamps that are clearly damaged, poorly centered and/or unceremoniously cancelled can fetch up to 20% cat. val. on eBay or other public auction. If I go to sell my stuff, even to a dealer, I'm sure I'll get more than 4% and you've seen some of my collection; it's much less than spectacular.
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
14 Apr 2020
11:09:18am
re: How to Value a Collection in under a Minute.....!
".... fetch up to 20% cat. val. on eBay or other public auction ...."
Selling on eBay takes work, and sometimes aggravation, at an auction,
a 20% to 30% fee plus shipping to the auction unless there is one
across the street.
There is a lot the average collector does not consider that a
business person lives with every day.
One in particular is the question. " Just how long will that
collection of hand painted Grand Fenwick first day covers be
in my inventory tying up my money ?"
Another is; "I already have three very nice general collections
just like this, sitting in the back room gathering dust, do I
need a third ?"
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11:13:45am
re: How to Value a Collection in under a Minute.....!
"Selling on eBay takes work, and sometimes aggravation, at an auction,
a 20% to 30% fee plus shipping to the auction unless there is one
across the street."
Very valid point!
"Just how long will that collection of hand painted Grand Fenwick first day covers be
in my inventory"
My comment was geared toward in demand, easily turned items/collections. I honestly don't know how some stuff sells at any price. You see mountains of it for sale online and at shows and no takers at any price.
I have never tried to sell stamps to a dealer. I'm sure I would be in for a very rude awakening.
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12:45:10pm
re: How to Value a Collection in under a Minute.....!
Ernie - I've been doing this since 1985 - that is ..... let's just say a lot of years. I used to do shows now it is strictly mail order. Doing shows is a lot better because you turn a lot of stock - much of it dealer to dealer (especially the last day of a three day show)
In all this time 95 per cent or better of what I buy is bought from other dealers 0 and a good majority of what I sell is sold to other dealers. Odd - huh?
You know why - it's because I can buy material cheaper from another dealer than I can from a collector. a dealer buys for existing customers and sells to other dealers who have customers for material they can't sell. Supply and demand - stamps are a commodity to a dealer (OK - most of us have collections of stuff we find appealing). If a customer of mine suddenly says - hey - do you have any ??? I may not but I know where I can get some. quick.
It's a strange world .....
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01:02:36pm
re: How to Value a Collection in under a Minute.....!
Carol,
Yep, the laws of supply and demand will prevail. Dealers must have material and they are competing with others to obtain it.
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re: How to Value a Collection in under a Minute.....!
i have heard that at the A.P.S. shows much of the sales that take place are dealer to dealer in the few hours before the show opens. i have been around shows since the 70's and i have seen dealers drop off boxes of stuff to other dealers to go through..there has to be a lot of trust involved.
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re: How to Value a Collection in under a Minute.....!
A few years ago I bought a USA collection on eBay. It was in a Scott Minuteman album and looked like it was assembled by a teen collector in the early 70s just as I had done. This was back when I was just starting to fill in my current US collection, so I was hoping to pull from this lot. I had noticed that the mint stamps were all in mounts, just like I would’ve done back then. The collection didn’t have any rare or expensive stamps.
The lot also included a bunch of loose material including a stack of first day covers and several foreign souvenir cards of stamps under cellophane like someone brought them back to grandson from a cruise.
I got the lot cheaper than I anticipated. Something like $25 plus postage. It comes in the mail and I got a rude awakening, all of those nice mint stamps in mounts had bad multiple hinge marks in the back! It was like the Minuteman album was this collector’s third album and he just discover mounts! Nothing in the album was usable! Fortunately the extra stuff that came with the lot was worthwhile. And there was a large unmarked envelope stuck in the back of the album with a bunch of Farley imperf pairs and such that was worth more than I paid alone!
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