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General Philatelic/Gen. Discussion : overseas postage costs

 

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capetown

22 Jul 2018
07:12:23pm
Does anyone know how to mail stamps or covers overseas that is not so expensive. I find that 2-6 oz. envelopes or first class mail packages are very expensive. I thought at $1.15 per ounce that wasn't too bad, but supposedly it doesn't work that way for multiple ounce pkgs. Hope to get some answers. Thanks, capetown

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michael78651

22 Jul 2018
11:30:07pm
re: overseas postage costs

You have no choice. You must ship merchandise (stamps, included) as a parcel (First Class parcel will be the cheapest) along with a customs form. Any other method of shipping (First Class letter, First Class large envelope, etc.) is illegal.

Here is a link to the discussion that answered all your questions.

https://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_main.php?action=20&id=19252#142722

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

23 Jul 2018
08:30:20am

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re: overseas postage costs

i have averted my eyes in order not to see a former cop's recitation of postal laws

i have routinely mailed stamps outside the US in small batches, usually weighing an ounce or less. As there is no discount for second ounces, I typically keep each to an ounce and mail multiples up to an ounce each.

we are still at the $1.15 per ounce threshhold, so just take that into consideration when buying or selling.

or, if you prefer to be law-abiding, follow Michael's link.


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Webpaper

In loving memory of Carol, my wife for 52 years.

23 Jul 2018
08:51:29am

Auctions - Approvals
re: overseas postage costs

When it draws the attention of the USPS (much like the misuse of media mail and false weights has) it will become an issue because the lost dollar amount at $10 to $15 per mailing is substantial.

At that point- good luck -speaking as a retired Fed with almost 20 years of service...

And at some point you will incur the wrath of other dealers who choose to actually send things legally.

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TuskenRaider
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23 Jul 2018
08:51:46am
re: overseas postage costs

Hi everyone;

I'm not advising you to break the law, but if you do, there are things you can do to stay safer. Anyway I don't think they have the resources to arrest everyone who does this. They will probably just destroy your stamp shipment, or it will grow legs and end up at a local stamp show for sale.

Do not use envelopes bigger than letter size (4"x6"). Do not use preprinted Labels, as they suggest a business mailing. Hand written addresses send the signal; personal letters. Never use older stamps, as that flags you as a collector/seller of stamps. Use a single definitive stamp. If your buyer doesn't like the plain vanilla stamps, just ask if he/she is willing to pay 10x as much for shipping.

Good Luck and my elbow will now accidentally hit the send button, and we never had this conversation.

Still just sortin'....
TuskenRaider

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capetown

23 Jul 2018
09:19:23pm
re: overseas postage costs

thank you one and all for your responses...it seems to me that there are no alternatives to the first class parcel rate
...capetown

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philb
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23 Jul 2018
10:40:12pm

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re: overseas postage costs

Methinks a lot of postal clerks avert their eyes $1.15,$1.15,$1.15 !

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michael78651

24 Jul 2018
01:53:26am
re: overseas postage costs

It's not the postal clerks that will bring the problem. It will be the Postal Inspectors.

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philb
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24 Jul 2018
09:05:30am

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re: overseas postage costs

My Nephews a postal inspector...hes out chasing postal employees who are cheating on disability claims.

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michael78651

24 Jul 2018
09:21:56am
re: overseas postage costs

And that's your justification for short-paying postage?

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Brechinite

24 Jul 2018
11:39:56am
re: overseas postage costs

AHHHH!... Jings!!...Crivvens!!...Help Ma Boab!!

Royal Mail is getting a new CEO.

His Financial package is worth £6 million per annum. (ie $8 million)

He will NOT reside in the UK but will commute from his luxury penthouse overlooking Lake Zurich in Switzerland.

Nice work if you can get it!!!!!!

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philb
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24 Jul 2018
03:40:41pm

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re: overseas postage costs

My reasoning is that a customer is not going to pay the parcel rate for a 3 dollar postcard or cover. So i put it in a greeting card without an invoice and mail it first class the same way i would an item here in the states. The only other option would be to stop selling dollar and two dollar covers.

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Brechinite

24 Jul 2018
03:53:56pm
re: overseas postage costs

Some Buyers already moan and bitch about having to pay for shipping at low levels of cost never mind having to state postage costs are going to be $10 plus.

Of course the whole problem is caused by "globalisation" and governments/organisations not having a clue on how to deal with it.

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In loving memory of Carol, my wife for 52 years.

24 Jul 2018
04:20:01pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: overseas postage costs

"The only other option would be to stop selling dollar and two dollar covers."



Yup, just like the dealers who made a decision not to steal from the post office have done. By the way - given the amount of small scale foreign commerce at an average loss of $10 to $15 per illegal letter the total amount of loss may well exceed the loss from fraudulent disability claims.

It is a matter of time before it will be noticed.

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Bobstamp
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24 Jul 2018
05:10:21pm
re: overseas postage costs

I have been following this thread with more than a little concern, based on the fact that I am not a wealthy person. Now, not only do I have to find stamps that I am searching for, but I have to make sure that the shipping costs are reasonable, and having to spend $10 to mail a letter or a cover is not reasonable. It's not just stamp collectors and dealer who are being hit with this. I recently bought a few used books on ABE.com. One of the titles I was searching for was priced at about US $3.00, but the shipping was $50. Seriously! I would have considered that an error, but in recent years I have seen many outrageous shipping charges like that. I ended up buying the same book in similar condition from another seller at about the same price, and the shipping was free! That doesn't make any sense either.

Bottom line: I can't afford to buy stamps if such outrageous shipping prices become the norm.

Bob

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clivel
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24 Jul 2018
05:38:18pm
re: overseas postage costs

"Yup, just like the dealers who made a decision not to steal from the post office have done. By the way - given the amount of small scale foreign commerce at an average loss of $10 to $15 per illegal letter the total amount of loss may well exceed the loss from fraudulent disability claims."


As a Canadian who occasionally purchases stamps from the US I am completely puzzled by this.
The USPS web site lists "First-Class Mail International" as an option, there is nothing illegal about using it unless one includes "restricted, prohibited, and hazardous materials, including cigarettes and smokeless tobacco".
There does not appear top be any restriction on photographs, stamp or other bits of paper as long as the weight is kept below 4lbs.

I will when purchasing stamps happily pay $2 to $4 plus postage for a $10 cat item if the postage is reasonable, but will baulk at paying the $15, $20 and higher prices I have been quoted for postage by some US based sellers for a single stamp in an envelope.

Clive


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Collecting King George VI from all countries, and King Edward VII and King George V from the West Indies.

24 Jul 2018
06:23:27pm
re: overseas postage costs

I copied this from the USPs web site International Mail Manual regarding what can be mailed internationally.

As I read this, stamps are not prohibited. The exception could be stamps that are currently available for use, but in many cases older stamps that are no longer valid for postage would appear to be exempt. What do you think? Am I looking in the wrong place?

https://pe.usps.com/text/imm/immc1_013.htm#ep1001636

134 Valuable Articles

134.1 Service Options

The following services can be used to send the articles noted in 134.2:

First-Class Mail International service with Registered Mail service or First-Class Package International Service with Registered Mail service.

Priority Mail International service.

Note: Priority Mail Express International service cannot be used to send the articles noted in 134.2.

134.2 List of Articles

The following valuable articles may be sent only with the services noted in 134.1:

Coins, banknotes, and currency notes (paper money).

Instruments payable to bearer. (The term “instruments payable to bearer” includes checks, drafts, or securities that can be legally cashed or easily negotiated by anyone who may come into possession of them. A check or draft payable to a specific payee is not regarded as payable to bearer unless the payee has endorsed it. If not endorsed, or if endorsed in favor of another specific payee, it is not regarded as payable to bearer.)

Traveler’s checks.

Manufactured and unmanufactured platinum, gold, and silver.

Precious stones, jewels, jewelry, watches, and other valuable articles.

Note: The term “jewelry” is generally understood to denote articles of more than nominal value. Inexpensive jewelry, watches, such as tie clasps and costume jewelry, containing little or no precious metal, is not considered to be jewelry within the meaning of this section and is accepted under the same conditions as other mailable merchandise to any country. Inexpensive jewelry is accepted to countries that prohibit jewelry, but only at the sender’s risk.

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michael78651

24 Jul 2018
07:07:43pm
re: overseas postage costs

That concerns sending merchandise internationally using First Class Mail Package or Priority Mail WITH Registered mail. That is not what this discussion is about.

What this discussion is about is sending MERCHANDISE (including stamps) to international addresses. The requirement (and why is this so hard for some to grasp?) is that ALL merchandise MUST be sent via First Class International Parcel, Priority Mail, or other international package service. PERIOD.

Universal Postal Union Convention:

limits the contents of First-Class Mail International postcard, letter, and large envelope (flat) mail to personal correspondence and non-dutiable documents. Merchandise that was formerly carried in First-Class Mail International service will instead be eligible to be contained in First-Class Package International Service pieces or another available service.


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Webpaper

In loving memory of Carol, my wife for 52 years.

24 Jul 2018
08:18:17pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: overseas postage costs

"As a Canadian who occasionally purchases stamps from the US I am completely puzzled by this.
The USPS web site lists "First-Class Mail International" as an option, there is nothing illegal about using it unless one includes "restricted, prohibited, and hazardous materials, including cigarettes and smokeless tobacco".
There does not appear top be any restriction on photographs, stamp or other bits of paper as long as the weight is kept below 4lbs.

I will when purchasing stamps happily pay $2 to $4 plus postage for a $10 cat item if the postage is reasonable, but will baulk at paying the $15, $20 and higher prices I have been quoted for postage by some US based sellers for a single stamp in an envelope.

Clive"



I never said that they couldn't be sent. But as you can see above clearly spelled out they must be sent First Class Parcel International Service and can no longer be legally mailed in an envelope at letter rate. The cheapest international parcel is around $10 to Canada and $12 to $16 for the rest of the world. That is the problem.
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youpiao
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25 Jul 2018
01:49:04am
re: overseas postage costs

"...it seems to me that there are no alternatives to the first class parcel rate
...capetown"



There is a cheaper alternative, though still not cheap, per se. Shipping Easy.com is a forwarding service, operating under a partnership type of deal with the USPS, and international parcel service starts at well under half the regular USPS rate.


"My reasoning is that a customer is not going to pay the parcel rate for a 3 dollar postcard or cover. "



Except they will, and do. Here are 4 examples of mine from just the past month. I charge $5.50 for the 1st ounce, and $1 for every additional ounce. As you can see, people will pay $5.50, $6.50, and $7.50 shipping for low-dollar purchases. Going back further, I have 3 more where the buyer paid $5.50 for a purchase under $2.00, and another for a $3.25 purchase.

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Bobstamp
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25 Jul 2018
02:12:49am
re: overseas postage costs

@youpaio: That's all well and good, assuming that your customers can afford it. For retired collectors living on a fixed income, as I do, it's necessary to shop carefully and avoid high shipping costs. As I see it, the USPS regulations are ideal for increasing the gap between the Haves of the world and the Have Nots. In what universe does that make sense? Of course, very little in the world is making any sense at all these days....

Bob

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clivel
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25 Jul 2018
03:28:43am
re: overseas postage costs

"I never said that they couldn't be sent. But as you can see above clearly spelled out they must be sent First Class Parcel International Service and can no longer be legally mailed in an envelope at letter rate. The cheapest international parcel is around $10 to Canada and $12 to $16 for the rest of the world. That is the problem."


Actually if I as a consumer visit the USPS First-Class Mail International web page which includes a link to See All Restrictions, then it is reasonable to assume that those are the full list of restrictions and the onus is not on me to further hunt down and digest Universal Postal Union or USPS regulations before mailing a letter.
No where on the First-Class Mail International web page does it give any indication that one would be "stealing from the Post Office" by including stamps or similar in the envelope.

Similarly, any UPU regulations should apply to Canada as well. I regularly mail stamps via "Canada Post International Letter Mail" over the counter in a plain #10 envelope, stiffened with a double layer of card cut from a manilla folder, and not once has the postal clerk ever queried me as to the contents or suggested that it should be sent international parcel post instead. Nor had I ever considered doing so.

Clive




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Jansimon
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collector, seller, MT member

25 Jul 2018
04:03:43am

Approvals
re: overseas postage costs

This is interesting stuff. To the untrained eye it looks as if this is designed to make international trade less attractive, but of course I could be wrong. In any case, I have bought from USA based sellers many times and postage was always reasonable. Never ever have I been told that it had to be mailed as an international package @ considerable cost. Is this perhaps a new directive?
I also tried to find out what the Dutch equivalent rules are. When sending trade goods overseas (outside of the EU that is) a customs form is required and there are certain exemptions as to the value of the goods before import duty needs to be paid by the receiving party. But the Dutch Postal service does not give any binding requirements how to ship stuff. That's entirely up to you (as long as you include the customs form, which noone ever does actually, nor did postal clerks tell me when I brought in a 2 kg packet for Canada for instance...)

By the way, the few times I received goods from the USA as a packet with customs form, the sender had always described it as "gift", even when it came from a regular shop.

Jan-Simon

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In loving memory of Carol, my wife for 52 years.

25 Jul 2018
04:57:20am

Auctions - Approvals
re: overseas postage costs

"Actually if I as a consumer visit the USPS First-Class Mail International web page which includes a link to See All Restrictions, then it is reasonable to assume that those are the full list of restrictions and the onus is not on me to further hunt down and digest Universal Postal Union or USPS regulations before mailing a letter.
No where on the First-Class Mail International web page does it give any indication that one would be "stealing from the Post Office" by including stamps or similar in the envelope."



If you look under "Restrictions" on the page you linked titled "USPS First-Class Mail International" it states:

"Restrictions
All postcards, envelopes, and flats must be rectangular. Letters and flats may contain only documents, no goods. Additional size restrictions apply depending on the type of mailpiece you’re sending"

"Documents" is well defined in several places within the USPS code.

You ask why has no one at your post office queried you - who knows? Clerks at our post office have always asked if a first class letter has anything besides "documents" in it just from the standpoint of the required customs forms. You used to be able to affix customs forms onto first class envelopes and pay the normal dollar or so international letter rate. It is no longer legal to attach a customs form to a first class letter or large envelope, only a parcel.

It is required to affix a customs form whether that item (or items) have been sold and properly invoiced or are a gift and regardless of value.

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youpiao
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25 Jul 2018
05:02:02am
re: overseas postage costs

from: https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2017/10/24/2017-22749/international-mailing-services-proposed-product-and-price-changes-cpi

These changes would also implement a restriction on the contents of First-Class Mail International® to documents only, to comply with standards established by the Universal Postal Union (UPU).

. . . we are unable to continue to permit “goods of nominal value” sent by known mailers in First-Class Mail International items because, to be consistent with the UPU requirements, we must eliminate goods of any kind from First-Class Mail International letters and flats.



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philb
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25 Jul 2018
08:19:14am

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re: overseas postage costs

A dealer in the Netherlands can send us stamps and covers for $1.50 shipping. Perhaps their rules will change also.

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Stampme

25 Jul 2018
08:33:35am
re: overseas postage costs

Both Webpaper and Michael78651 plainly state what the USPS regulations NOW state and what the customs law NOW require. This change disallowing merchandise in First Class Letter Rate , moving it instead to the more expensive First Class Parcel Rate for international mailing began on January 22, 2018.

One may agree or disagree to follow the law. The law however does not allow for one's personal choice to trump the law. The law is the law. The law likely has penalties in place that will be used to enforce the law. The option: Petition the government to change the law.

Bruce

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michael78651

25 Jul 2018
10:30:32am
re: overseas postage costs

"the sender had always described it as "gift", even when it came from a regular shop."



And that shipment can get confiscated, or duties/taxes/penalties charged to the recipient. Hiding the truth about the shipment can be considered "smuggling". Remember also that intentionally entering false information on the customs form (a government document) is a felony. The US postal service scans the front of all envelopes/packages/etc., and those scans are kept in a database. I'm sure many other countries do the same.

You can be cute all you want by not following the correct procedures for shipping internationally (with a "oh, they won't check on little ol' me" attitude), but you as the shipper can cause serious problems for yourself and your buyers if an agent at the outgoing or incoming border decides to take a look at what you have in the envelope.
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Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't

25 Jul 2018
10:39:28am
re: overseas postage costs

"...You can be cute all you want by not following the correct procedures for shipping internationally (with a "oh, they won't check on little ol' me" attitude), but you as the shipper can cause serious problems for yourself and your buyers if an agent at the outgoing or incoming border decides to take a look at what you have in the envelope."



Or more likely...
'I am not shipping offshore anymore, there are too many buyers who won't pay or countries who have unreliable delivery!'

Don
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michael78651

25 Jul 2018
10:57:33am
re: overseas postage costs

Don, you are correct where many people in the USA simply do not ship outside the country anymore (I saw in Linn's that Canada Post is raising the postage rates to mail to the US, by the way).

I, for a time, stopped selling outside the US. Then, hearing others comment on people paying the postage/shipping fee, I resumed selling outside the US. My foreign sales used to be around 1/3 of all my sales (on another site). Now it is more like 10%. I don't understand why, but people will buy one stamp for 10 cents, and pay $15.00 shipping. Also, I have repeat buyers who will come back a few weeks later and buy another stamp for 10 cents.


Phil, the Universal Postal Union, has a political element in it. Countries are rated on a scale (sorry I don't recall that right now). The People's Republic of China is considered a "developing nation". Other countries receiving international mail from PR China, and other such categorized countries, have to make up the costs on their end for handling mail from there. That is one reason why our international rates are higher. Linn's had an article on this a few weeks ago. The US is considered to be a "top tier" (for lack of a better term) country, and therefore we have to pay higher international postage rates to help subsidize the cost of other countries handling our and their international mail.

This mess was negotiated under convention among the member states of the UPU. I don't know how long the terms of the convention last, but hopefully when it comes time to renew the convention, we will be able to fix this problem, and move the classification of some countries where they should be.

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Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't

25 Jul 2018
11:41:30am
re: overseas postage costs

Hi Michael,
Actually, I meant that sellers will blame the buyer and/or the postal system for ‘non-delivery’ when in fact it was their fault for not doing the customs paperwork and/or trying to save money by breaking postal regulations.

In a broader context...
I do not subscribe to a global view of this issue. The simple truth is that there is less and less first class mail being sent and this is making home delivery less and less cost effective. Parcel delivery (due to online sales) is helping offset the sharp decline in first class mail but I do not think that stopping at every home and business is sustainable in the long run.

Further out, even the parcel delivery industry will also start declining as 3D printers and other technologies make many parcels obsolete. We will order widgets online (or our smart houses will order them for us automatically) and the needed item will be printed. For example, your washing machine will identify that a small part is starting to wear and predict that failure of the part will occur in 3 weeks or less. The washing machine (or your smart house computer) will search online, find the best buy for the plans to make the part, download the plans, and send it to your 3D printer. You come home from work and the part is sitting there for you to install.

With fewer and fewer parcels and mail the cost can only increase; it is all about the economy of scale.

As collectors of small bits of paper, we are already seeing it harder and harder to sell and ship small purchases. Postal systems and venues like eBay will continue to do what they must to remain profitable and this means driving larger transactions and increasing prices. Everything is lining up against single stamp sellers; I recommend that folks enjoy what we have now because it is not going to improve as time goes by.
Don

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philb
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25 Jul 2018
11:47:08am

Auctions
re: overseas postage costs

I have always tried to give people the lowest possible shipping...but i never shipped a single 10 cent stamp before for even 50 cents shipping .

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clivel
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25 Jul 2018
12:34:29pm
re: overseas postage costs

"The People's Republic of China is considered a "developing nation". Other countries receiving international mail from PR China, and other such categorized countries, have to make up the costs on their end for handling mail from there."


Well that likely explains something that has been puzzling me for some time now. Often when searching for something on eBay (non-stamp related) the results will be overwhelmed by hundreds of China based suppliers all offering free or minimal charge shipping on items costing only a few dollars.

For example sometime back I needed to replace the back cover of my cell phone. Unable to obtain it locally I turned to eBay where I ordered a replacement. Including postage from China the cost was around $5. Some weeks later a package arrived, about 9x6x4" it completely dwarfed the item inside. Out of curiosity, when I asked the post office clerk what it would cost to mail to another address in my city, I was quoted $11.
So not only are taxpayers in Canada (and presumably the US and other "non-developing nations") subsiding private enterprises in a foreign country, it is completely impossible for domestic businesses to even compete at all.
Clive
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51Studebaker
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25 Jul 2018
12:52:23pm
re: overseas postage costs

Hi Clive,
In US the 'program' is called ePacket and it allows certain Far east countries use the US postal system for pennies. You can do an online search on ePacket to learn more about how they can ship you an item from China for 25 cents but if you have to return it it would cost you several dollars.

Note: In US the taxpayers do not subsidize the postal service, it is a 'stand-alone' business entity and it's profits/losses are its own. So it is the other postal service users which are footing the bill, not taxpayers.
Don

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michael78651

25 Jul 2018
02:07:11pm
re: overseas postage costs

"n US the taxpayers do not subsidize the postal service"



..except for the loans that the US Treasury gives the postal service to stay afloat. When will those be paid back? Yeah, there's some financial wrangling about those loans, but wouldn't it be nice to get a loan and not have to worry about paying it back until you can get around to it?
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51Studebaker
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Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't

25 Jul 2018
03:22:47pm
re: overseas postage costs

Hi Michael,
The loans that USPS gets are just like any other company in that they have to pay them back and they have to pay interest and penalties if they do not pay. But it is true that the USPS borrows their money from the Federal Financing Bank at a reduced interest rate of 1.2%.

A far stronger 'subsidized' argument could made about other benefits such as not having to pay state and local property and real estate taxes, not having to pay vehicle tolls, vehicle registration fees, and they do not have to pay parking tickets.

But the biggest 'subsidized' argument is that they are allowed, by law, a total monopoly over mailboxes. No other delivery service is allowed to deliver mail and packages directly to residential and business mailboxes. This is a huge subsidy, estimated to be worth $14 billion a year to the USPS.
Don

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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..

25 Jul 2018
07:32:25pm
re: overseas postage costs

Don's comment should be in bold print and sent to everyone
pretending to be a legislator, or would be legislator.

Note: " ...In US the taxpayers do not subsidize
the postal service, it is a 'stand-alone' business entity
and it's profits/losses are its own.
So it is the other
postal service users which are footing the bill,
not taxpayers. ...."



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michael78651

25 Jul 2018
07:42:03pm
re: overseas postage costs

But, the postal service is tied to the Executive Branch, and Congress has oversight of it. That means political meddling, and lobbying by union and other shipping company interests that prevents the postal service from acting like a private entity and making itself profitable.

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25 Jul 2018
08:13:04pm

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re: overseas postage costs

Keep in mind we have one of the lowest door to door domestic rates in the world. Many countries have subcontracted out mail delivery and it is no longer door to door but delivered to central mail boxes. There are not post offices in every small town like we are used to.

We also enjoy a service that usually delivers mail in a timely fashion to the correct address. In many countries this is not the case.

Check into the various rates around the world - you might be surprised.

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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..

25 Jul 2018
08:24:26pm
re: overseas postage costs

Yes the political meddling distorts the bottom line of the annual P&L statement.

" ... The April 18 editorial “Back to postal reform” attributed the U.S. Postal Service’s financial struggles to “a basic structural problem,” specifying technology that has reduced first-class mail, as well as “rising” costs of employee benefits. But the facts say otherwise. While it’s true that letter mail has declined, technology has led to a rise in package delivery stemming from e-commerce — and the overall result has been sufficient to produce operating profits in three of the past four years, averaging nearly $1 billion annually. That, mind you, without a dime of taxpayer money; by law, USPS relies on earned revenue for its operations. So if USPS takes in more money than it spends on normal business expenses (including health benefits and pensions), why is there red ink? The answer has little to do with technology or employees and everything to do with flawed public policy. In 2006, Congress mandated that USPS do something no other U.S. entity, public or private, is required to do: pre-fund future retiree health benefits decades into the future. That $5.8?billion annual charge accounts for almost all postal “losses.” Lawmakers need to address the illogical pre-funding policy so USPS can continue to provide Americans and their businesses with the industrial world’s most affordable delivery network...."

Fredric Rolando, Washington

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26 Jul 2018
01:41:01am
re: overseas postage costs

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26 Jul 2018
08:33:50am

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re: overseas postage costs

"But, the postal service is tied to the Executive Branch, and Congress has oversight of it. That means political meddling, and lobbying by union and other shipping company interests that prevents the postal service from acting like a private entity and making itself profitable."



true, much to the USPS's dismay. currently there are efforts from the executive branch to privatize the PO, and the VA, and many other long-standing government services. congressional interference in USPS business practice is a long-standing thorn in their side, and the prefunded retirment accounts is a huge drag on the bottom line.

"But the biggest 'subsidized' argument is that they are allowed, by law, a total monopoly over mailboxes. No other delivery service is allowed to deliver mail and packages directly to residential and business mailboxes. This is a huge subsidy, estimated to be worth $14 billion a year to the USPS. "



without this protection, USPS would be one of three delivery services competing for the top-paying accounts and ignoring the rest. The "monopoly" comes with a requirement that all mail be delivered if it fits certain very broad requirments. I, for one, wouldn't want to trade that.
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26 Jul 2018
08:50:05am

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re: overseas postage costs

@Nikki, what does this graph show us? price for a priority letter sent abroad? In that case, the listed price for the Netherlands is far off. It is €1.40 and not €0.78 (that's the domestic rate, or at least it was last year. Now it is 5 cents higher). The rate for Denmark is equivalent to 27 DKK, which is the European rate, so the graph does seem a bit inaccurate.

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26 Jul 2018
08:50:35am

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re: overseas postage costs

""without this protection, USPS would be one of three delivery services competing for the top-paying accounts and ignoring the rest. The "monopoly" comes with a requirement that all mail be delivered if it fits certain very broad requirments. I, for one, wouldn't want to trade that. ""



Amen
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michael78651

26 Jul 2018
10:08:01am
re: overseas postage costs

I find it interesting at how the three primary delivery services (USPS, United Parcel Service (UPS) - it replaced the Railway Express Agency, and FedEx actually work together to deliver.

I wonder if the first class mail monopoly were removed if delivery of that mail could become more efficient in the same manner, and would the postal service be a better partner with the other two. Would consolidation result in smaller services getting bought out? Would the big delivery services follow the lead of the major railroads where they haul the cargo the long distances and hand it over to short line roads for delivery, thus getting rid of non-profitable (for the large railroads) routes, but profitable for the short line railroads.

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Nikki
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26 Jul 2018
10:50:34am
re: overseas postage costs

I was just trying to compare those US rates with what we pay here.
http://www.anpost.ie/AnPost/MainContent/About+An+Post/Media+Centre/Press+Releases/2017/Postal+rates+2017

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26 Jul 2018
11:04:47am
re: overseas postage costs

Would not like to have to pay this postage !
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8 Billion !That'll wake you up in no time.

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26 Jul 2018
12:18:11pm
re: overseas postage costs

"A dealer in the Netherlands can send us stamps and covers for $1.50 shipping. Perhaps their rules will change also. "



This change is all about UPU IPP (Integrated Product Plan) regulation, which all UPU member countries are expected to rationalize and put into action between 2018/2020. Netherlands and rest of European countries will hop in 2019/2020 when the EU digital customs services are introduced.

According to IPP there will be no letters or anything as such In the future . All mail will be classified either as documents or goods of varying weight and rates. Very likely USPS charging all goods as parcels is just part of 'transitional phase'. Or maybe they are just greedy Crying

From collector point of view the most painful coming is that anything classified as goods (and this means collectables such as stamps) will become subject to customs and taxes when mailed internationally regardless of its value. Currently many countries/areas have various thresholds when imported goods are exempt from customs and taxes. In the future all goods regardless of their value (even 0.01€) will be subject for customs and VAT when mailed to another custom zone.

And yes, all this paints a very worrying picture of the future.

-k-


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26 Jul 2018
02:25:27pm

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re: overseas postage costs

"Currently many countries/areas have various thresholds when imported goods are exempt from customs and taxes."



The thresholds apply to taxes - not to the requirement for customs forms per se. Anything that is classified as "goods" (all things that are not documents) have always required a customs form, whether of any value or not and whether or not being sold or sent as a gift.

What is changing is that "goods" must now go as a parcel and cannot be legally included in a first class letter. Nor can a customs form be placed on anything but a parcel.

And yes - when those other countries comply with the UPU rates to send goods to other countries will go up substantially. I looked at the Netherlands parcel rate and it looked like it is very similar to ours - could be wrong.


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27 Jul 2018
07:40:35am

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re: overseas postage costs

"
I wonder if the first class mail monopoly were removed if delivery of that mail could become more efficient in the same manner, and would the postal service be a better partner with the other two."



Michael, if the monopoly were removed, I'd assume the mandate to deliver mail to all would also be removed. if that's the case, AND the USPS had a freer hand in business choices (now that it was no longer mandated to deliver the mail), you'd see the three competing for the choicest packages in the biggest cities. Idaho, Iowa, Wyoming etc would cease to get mail; and mail that was sent wouldn't cost 50c because the PRC would no longer exist.

there already is tremendous cooperation between FedX and USPS (and I think UPS, but i'm less certain about that). They use each others planes, and USPS is often delivering FedX packages. It's brilliant.

But the monopoly insures we get mail; without it, mail will not be affordable and likely one of the three big players will go the way of all those other delivery services whose names i can't recall.

The privatization being discussed will essentially eliminate the mandate, because no business will buy into the PO as currently configured.


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27 Jul 2018
08:22:24am
re: overseas postage costs

The USPS is not a natural monopoly but clearly emerged from the government provided legal protection from competition throughout its existence. Despite the growth in parcel delivery, the decline of first class mail is crushing the USPS. (And yes, we understand the artificial budget impact they are carrying with the forward benefits requirements.) But look at this USPS grim press release from earlier this year which clearly indicates that mail declines are far greater than strong package growth.https://about.usps.com/news/national-releases/2018/pr18_012.pdf

The 'last mile' (especially in rural areas) is the clearly most costly, but a lot has changed in the last few decades. Mobility has changed and rural customers can easily reach a kiosk or store to fetch their mail; reducing the need for the ‘last mile’. FedEx and UPS are quite competitive with USPS in parcel services, the only monopoly that USPS has is the most expensive ‘last mile’ for first class mail. Declining volume, highest cost…this put them in a bad situation. As they continue to try to compete with price reductions like workshare discounts, they only makes the profit/loss worse.

Lastly, there are other delivery competitive factors at work moving forward. Amazon, with sales representing a whopping 43.5% of all e-commerce, is driving hard to create and implement its own delivery business (called “Shipping With Amazon”). Drones and other self-autonomous vehicles will play bigger roles in the future giving others even more self-delivery options.

So I do not share the opinion that rural areas would be left without service if the USPS were to go private or even die a slow death.
Don

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27 Jul 2018
09:11:16am
re: overseas postage costs

Just a couple of thoughts while I sit in the sunshine on England's south coast (yay for holidays).
Firstly, if I really need a stamp I will pay the postage, even if many times the item cost.
Secondly, my residence in rural Canada does not get deliveries of mail, we have a locked box at the post office 9 miles away. Even businesses in town have to collect their mail.
We are unable to get online deliveries to our door as our address, SW5-15-16 W does not appear on mapping systems. We live on a gravel road off the main highway. The closest description I can supply would be "the junction of roads 89 north & 95 west"
The costs are what they are and we need to accept them and move on, though I can see this will be a problem for some buyers/sellers.

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michael78651

27 Jul 2018
10:39:33am
re: overseas postage costs

To prevent what you experience in Canada, the United States implemented what is known as "Rural Free Delivery". The first delivery, under the "RFD" program was made in 1896.

A brief note from Wikipedia:

"Rural Free Delivery (RFD) is a service which began in the United States in the late 19th century, to deliver mail directly to rural farm families. Prior to RFD, individuals living in more remote homesteads had to pick up mail themselves at sometimes distant post offices or pay private carriers for delivery (this fee was in addition to the postage paid by the mailer)."

Therein lies the cost of that "last mile" delivery. The US Postal Service even today still delivers mail using mules (to an inaccessible Indian village within the Grand Canyon).

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michael78651

27 Jul 2018
10:48:05am
re: overseas postage costs

Dave and Don, I think if privatization of the postal service were to occur, you'd probably see a hybrid of what we are discussing. I don't think the big three (USPS, FedEx and UPS - yes, all three deliver the last mile for each other) will go away. They will strengthen their collaboration. Prices will probably go up for letter mail delivery, which will almost certainly send that service to the ancient history files for the most part.

What happens to the smaller delivery services, well that may turn into what it was before the US Post Office Department got the monopoly on first class mail whereby many small courier services sprung up in the larger cities (see the Scott US Specialized for those courier service that issued stamps). For the rural areas, regional service may spring up as has happened as I said with the railroads.

Things have to change with mail delivery. First Class mail is not sustainable as technology continues to drive first class mail to it demise.

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sheepshanks
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27 Jul 2018
10:54:27am
re: overseas postage costs

I remember reading the article, here is the link.


https://insider.si.edu/2016/08/grand-canyon-u-s-postal-service-still-delivers-mail-mule/

Maybe this service needs amending, Canada Post just basically stopped the service.

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StampWrangler
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27 Jul 2018
01:00:59pm
re: overseas postage costs

Thanks for the mule mail article link. Fascinating!

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27 Jul 2018
08:46:00pm
re: overseas postage costs

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27 Jul 2018
10:54:29pm
re: overseas postage costs

Oh that is totally cool!

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malcolm197

23 Aug 2018
12:33:06pm
re: overseas postage costs

Can I add a couple of what if ?

You don't have access to private or public transport - and yes there are still tens of thousands of people in the UK that this applies to.

You don't have access to a computer or your broadband speed is poor, or you are so worried about personal security that you don't make financial transactions on line ( the last applies to me).

Your educational standard, health issues or lifestyle makes it difficult to cope with technology, and you live in a rural area.

All the above tends to apply to people on low incomes with limited assets, or those of a certain age.

We are already widening the gap between the haves and the have nots. It is bad enough for those in unfortunate circumstances to cope with life, but governments worldwide seem to be in the business of creating an institutionalised underclass using the excuse of costs.

It seems to me that said governments are failing in their duty to provide an environment suitable for ALL their citizens instead of just for the rich and powerful." We only want to do business with those to whom it is convenient for us". I suggest that anyone on less than 50% of mean average wage is not getting value for money for their taxes.

Malcolm

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23 Aug 2018
01:42:33pm
re: overseas postage costs

Besides the obvious guarantee of last mile service, don't forget that USPS used to be, or at least should be, a means of exporting US values to the world. I know its less important now than it was, but the USPS is one means of promoting brand USA, and its hard to put a value on that. Privatization is the wrong direction for USPS.

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26 Aug 2018
01:36:30am
re: overseas postage costs

" .....Besides the obvious guarantee of last mile service,
don't forget that USPS used to be, or at least should be,
a means of exporting US values to the world....."


I'd love to comment, but it would appear to be
an ungracious political remark, so I will not.

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DaveSheridan
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26 Aug 2018
03:51:02am
re: overseas postage costs

"that USPS used to be, or at least should be, a means of exporting US values to the world"



Please don't. At least not at the moment I Don't Want To See

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capetown

22 Jul 2018
07:12:23pm

Does anyone know how to mail stamps or covers overseas that is not so expensive. I find that 2-6 oz. envelopes or first class mail packages are very expensive. I thought at $1.15 per ounce that wasn't too bad, but supposedly it doesn't work that way for multiple ounce pkgs. Hope to get some answers. Thanks, capetown

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michael78651

22 Jul 2018
11:30:07pm

re: overseas postage costs

You have no choice. You must ship merchandise (stamps, included) as a parcel (First Class parcel will be the cheapest) along with a customs form. Any other method of shipping (First Class letter, First Class large envelope, etc.) is illegal.

Here is a link to the discussion that answered all your questions.

https://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_main.php?action=20&id=19252#142722

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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
23 Jul 2018
08:30:20am

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re: overseas postage costs

i have averted my eyes in order not to see a former cop's recitation of postal laws

i have routinely mailed stamps outside the US in small batches, usually weighing an ounce or less. As there is no discount for second ounces, I typically keep each to an ounce and mail multiples up to an ounce each.

we are still at the $1.15 per ounce threshhold, so just take that into consideration when buying or selling.

or, if you prefer to be law-abiding, follow Michael's link.


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23 Jul 2018
08:51:29am

Auctions - Approvals

re: overseas postage costs

When it draws the attention of the USPS (much like the misuse of media mail and false weights has) it will become an issue because the lost dollar amount at $10 to $15 per mailing is substantial.

At that point- good luck -speaking as a retired Fed with almost 20 years of service...

And at some point you will incur the wrath of other dealers who choose to actually send things legally.

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TuskenRaider

23 Jul 2018
08:51:46am

re: overseas postage costs

Hi everyone;

I'm not advising you to break the law, but if you do, there are things you can do to stay safer. Anyway I don't think they have the resources to arrest everyone who does this. They will probably just destroy your stamp shipment, or it will grow legs and end up at a local stamp show for sale.

Do not use envelopes bigger than letter size (4"x6"). Do not use preprinted Labels, as they suggest a business mailing. Hand written addresses send the signal; personal letters. Never use older stamps, as that flags you as a collector/seller of stamps. Use a single definitive stamp. If your buyer doesn't like the plain vanilla stamps, just ask if he/she is willing to pay 10x as much for shipping.

Good Luck and my elbow will now accidentally hit the send button, and we never had this conversation.

Still just sortin'....
TuskenRaider

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capetown

23 Jul 2018
09:19:23pm

re: overseas postage costs

thank you one and all for your responses...it seems to me that there are no alternatives to the first class parcel rate
...capetown

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philb

23 Jul 2018
10:40:12pm

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re: overseas postage costs

Methinks a lot of postal clerks avert their eyes $1.15,$1.15,$1.15 !

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michael78651

24 Jul 2018
01:53:26am

re: overseas postage costs

It's not the postal clerks that will bring the problem. It will be the Postal Inspectors.

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philb

24 Jul 2018
09:05:30am

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re: overseas postage costs

My Nephews a postal inspector...hes out chasing postal employees who are cheating on disability claims.

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michael78651

24 Jul 2018
09:21:56am

re: overseas postage costs

And that's your justification for short-paying postage?

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Brechinite

24 Jul 2018
11:39:56am

re: overseas postage costs

AHHHH!... Jings!!...Crivvens!!...Help Ma Boab!!

Royal Mail is getting a new CEO.

His Financial package is worth £6 million per annum. (ie $8 million)

He will NOT reside in the UK but will commute from his luxury penthouse overlooking Lake Zurich in Switzerland.

Nice work if you can get it!!!!!!

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philb

24 Jul 2018
03:40:41pm

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re: overseas postage costs

My reasoning is that a customer is not going to pay the parcel rate for a 3 dollar postcard or cover. So i put it in a greeting card without an invoice and mail it first class the same way i would an item here in the states. The only other option would be to stop selling dollar and two dollar covers.

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Brechinite

24 Jul 2018
03:53:56pm

re: overseas postage costs

Some Buyers already moan and bitch about having to pay for shipping at low levels of cost never mind having to state postage costs are going to be $10 plus.

Of course the whole problem is caused by "globalisation" and governments/organisations not having a clue on how to deal with it.

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24 Jul 2018
04:20:01pm

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re: overseas postage costs

"The only other option would be to stop selling dollar and two dollar covers."



Yup, just like the dealers who made a decision not to steal from the post office have done. By the way - given the amount of small scale foreign commerce at an average loss of $10 to $15 per illegal letter the total amount of loss may well exceed the loss from fraudulent disability claims.

It is a matter of time before it will be noticed.

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Bobstamp

24 Jul 2018
05:10:21pm

re: overseas postage costs

I have been following this thread with more than a little concern, based on the fact that I am not a wealthy person. Now, not only do I have to find stamps that I am searching for, but I have to make sure that the shipping costs are reasonable, and having to spend $10 to mail a letter or a cover is not reasonable. It's not just stamp collectors and dealer who are being hit with this. I recently bought a few used books on ABE.com. One of the titles I was searching for was priced at about US $3.00, but the shipping was $50. Seriously! I would have considered that an error, but in recent years I have seen many outrageous shipping charges like that. I ended up buying the same book in similar condition from another seller at about the same price, and the shipping was free! That doesn't make any sense either.

Bottom line: I can't afford to buy stamps if such outrageous shipping prices become the norm.

Bob

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clivel

24 Jul 2018
05:38:18pm

re: overseas postage costs

"Yup, just like the dealers who made a decision not to steal from the post office have done. By the way - given the amount of small scale foreign commerce at an average loss of $10 to $15 per illegal letter the total amount of loss may well exceed the loss from fraudulent disability claims."


As a Canadian who occasionally purchases stamps from the US I am completely puzzled by this.
The USPS web site lists "First-Class Mail International" as an option, there is nothing illegal about using it unless one includes "restricted, prohibited, and hazardous materials, including cigarettes and smokeless tobacco".
There does not appear top be any restriction on photographs, stamp or other bits of paper as long as the weight is kept below 4lbs.

I will when purchasing stamps happily pay $2 to $4 plus postage for a $10 cat item if the postage is reasonable, but will baulk at paying the $15, $20 and higher prices I have been quoted for postage by some US based sellers for a single stamp in an envelope.

Clive


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24 Jul 2018
06:23:27pm

re: overseas postage costs

I copied this from the USPs web site International Mail Manual regarding what can be mailed internationally.

As I read this, stamps are not prohibited. The exception could be stamps that are currently available for use, but in many cases older stamps that are no longer valid for postage would appear to be exempt. What do you think? Am I looking in the wrong place?

https://pe.usps.com/text/imm/immc1_013.htm#ep1001636

134 Valuable Articles

134.1 Service Options

The following services can be used to send the articles noted in 134.2:

First-Class Mail International service with Registered Mail service or First-Class Package International Service with Registered Mail service.

Priority Mail International service.

Note: Priority Mail Express International service cannot be used to send the articles noted in 134.2.

134.2 List of Articles

The following valuable articles may be sent only with the services noted in 134.1:

Coins, banknotes, and currency notes (paper money).

Instruments payable to bearer. (The term “instruments payable to bearer” includes checks, drafts, or securities that can be legally cashed or easily negotiated by anyone who may come into possession of them. A check or draft payable to a specific payee is not regarded as payable to bearer unless the payee has endorsed it. If not endorsed, or if endorsed in favor of another specific payee, it is not regarded as payable to bearer.)

Traveler’s checks.

Manufactured and unmanufactured platinum, gold, and silver.

Precious stones, jewels, jewelry, watches, and other valuable articles.

Note: The term “jewelry” is generally understood to denote articles of more than nominal value. Inexpensive jewelry, watches, such as tie clasps and costume jewelry, containing little or no precious metal, is not considered to be jewelry within the meaning of this section and is accepted under the same conditions as other mailable merchandise to any country. Inexpensive jewelry is accepted to countries that prohibit jewelry, but only at the sender’s risk.

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michael78651

24 Jul 2018
07:07:43pm

re: overseas postage costs

That concerns sending merchandise internationally using First Class Mail Package or Priority Mail WITH Registered mail. That is not what this discussion is about.

What this discussion is about is sending MERCHANDISE (including stamps) to international addresses. The requirement (and why is this so hard for some to grasp?) is that ALL merchandise MUST be sent via First Class International Parcel, Priority Mail, or other international package service. PERIOD.

Universal Postal Union Convention:

limits the contents of First-Class Mail International postcard, letter, and large envelope (flat) mail to personal correspondence and non-dutiable documents. Merchandise that was formerly carried in First-Class Mail International service will instead be eligible to be contained in First-Class Package International Service pieces or another available service.


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24 Jul 2018
08:18:17pm

Auctions - Approvals

re: overseas postage costs

"As a Canadian who occasionally purchases stamps from the US I am completely puzzled by this.
The USPS web site lists "First-Class Mail International" as an option, there is nothing illegal about using it unless one includes "restricted, prohibited, and hazardous materials, including cigarettes and smokeless tobacco".
There does not appear top be any restriction on photographs, stamp or other bits of paper as long as the weight is kept below 4lbs.

I will when purchasing stamps happily pay $2 to $4 plus postage for a $10 cat item if the postage is reasonable, but will baulk at paying the $15, $20 and higher prices I have been quoted for postage by some US based sellers for a single stamp in an envelope.

Clive"



I never said that they couldn't be sent. But as you can see above clearly spelled out they must be sent First Class Parcel International Service and can no longer be legally mailed in an envelope at letter rate. The cheapest international parcel is around $10 to Canada and $12 to $16 for the rest of the world. That is the problem.
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youpiao

25 Jul 2018
01:49:04am

re: overseas postage costs

"...it seems to me that there are no alternatives to the first class parcel rate
...capetown"



There is a cheaper alternative, though still not cheap, per se. Shipping Easy.com is a forwarding service, operating under a partnership type of deal with the USPS, and international parcel service starts at well under half the regular USPS rate.


"My reasoning is that a customer is not going to pay the parcel rate for a 3 dollar postcard or cover. "



Except they will, and do. Here are 4 examples of mine from just the past month. I charge $5.50 for the 1st ounce, and $1 for every additional ounce. As you can see, people will pay $5.50, $6.50, and $7.50 shipping for low-dollar purchases. Going back further, I have 3 more where the buyer paid $5.50 for a purchase under $2.00, and another for a $3.25 purchase.

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Bobstamp

25 Jul 2018
02:12:49am

re: overseas postage costs

@youpaio: That's all well and good, assuming that your customers can afford it. For retired collectors living on a fixed income, as I do, it's necessary to shop carefully and avoid high shipping costs. As I see it, the USPS regulations are ideal for increasing the gap between the Haves of the world and the Have Nots. In what universe does that make sense? Of course, very little in the world is making any sense at all these days....

Bob

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clivel

25 Jul 2018
03:28:43am

re: overseas postage costs

"I never said that they couldn't be sent. But as you can see above clearly spelled out they must be sent First Class Parcel International Service and can no longer be legally mailed in an envelope at letter rate. The cheapest international parcel is around $10 to Canada and $12 to $16 for the rest of the world. That is the problem."


Actually if I as a consumer visit the USPS First-Class Mail International web page which includes a link to See All Restrictions, then it is reasonable to assume that those are the full list of restrictions and the onus is not on me to further hunt down and digest Universal Postal Union or USPS regulations before mailing a letter.
No where on the First-Class Mail International web page does it give any indication that one would be "stealing from the Post Office" by including stamps or similar in the envelope.

Similarly, any UPU regulations should apply to Canada as well. I regularly mail stamps via "Canada Post International Letter Mail" over the counter in a plain #10 envelope, stiffened with a double layer of card cut from a manilla folder, and not once has the postal clerk ever queried me as to the contents or suggested that it should be sent international parcel post instead. Nor had I ever considered doing so.

Clive




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Jansimon

collector, seller, MT member
25 Jul 2018
04:03:43am

Approvals

re: overseas postage costs

This is interesting stuff. To the untrained eye it looks as if this is designed to make international trade less attractive, but of course I could be wrong. In any case, I have bought from USA based sellers many times and postage was always reasonable. Never ever have I been told that it had to be mailed as an international package @ considerable cost. Is this perhaps a new directive?
I also tried to find out what the Dutch equivalent rules are. When sending trade goods overseas (outside of the EU that is) a customs form is required and there are certain exemptions as to the value of the goods before import duty needs to be paid by the receiving party. But the Dutch Postal service does not give any binding requirements how to ship stuff. That's entirely up to you (as long as you include the customs form, which noone ever does actually, nor did postal clerks tell me when I brought in a 2 kg packet for Canada for instance...)

By the way, the few times I received goods from the USA as a packet with customs form, the sender had always described it as "gift", even when it came from a regular shop.

Jan-Simon

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25 Jul 2018
04:57:20am

Auctions - Approvals

re: overseas postage costs

"Actually if I as a consumer visit the USPS First-Class Mail International web page which includes a link to See All Restrictions, then it is reasonable to assume that those are the full list of restrictions and the onus is not on me to further hunt down and digest Universal Postal Union or USPS regulations before mailing a letter.
No where on the First-Class Mail International web page does it give any indication that one would be "stealing from the Post Office" by including stamps or similar in the envelope."



If you look under "Restrictions" on the page you linked titled "USPS First-Class Mail International" it states:

"Restrictions
All postcards, envelopes, and flats must be rectangular. Letters and flats may contain only documents, no goods. Additional size restrictions apply depending on the type of mailpiece you’re sending"

"Documents" is well defined in several places within the USPS code.

You ask why has no one at your post office queried you - who knows? Clerks at our post office have always asked if a first class letter has anything besides "documents" in it just from the standpoint of the required customs forms. You used to be able to affix customs forms onto first class envelopes and pay the normal dollar or so international letter rate. It is no longer legal to attach a customs form to a first class letter or large envelope, only a parcel.

It is required to affix a customs form whether that item (or items) have been sold and properly invoiced or are a gift and regardless of value.

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youpiao

25 Jul 2018
05:02:02am

re: overseas postage costs

from: https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2017/10/24/2017-22749/international-mailing-services-proposed-product-and-price-changes-cpi

These changes would also implement a restriction on the contents of First-Class Mail International® to documents only, to comply with standards established by the Universal Postal Union (UPU).

. . . we are unable to continue to permit “goods of nominal value” sent by known mailers in First-Class Mail International items because, to be consistent with the UPU requirements, we must eliminate goods of any kind from First-Class Mail International letters and flats.



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philb

25 Jul 2018
08:19:14am

Auctions

re: overseas postage costs

A dealer in the Netherlands can send us stamps and covers for $1.50 shipping. Perhaps their rules will change also.

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Stampme

25 Jul 2018
08:33:35am

re: overseas postage costs

Both Webpaper and Michael78651 plainly state what the USPS regulations NOW state and what the customs law NOW require. This change disallowing merchandise in First Class Letter Rate , moving it instead to the more expensive First Class Parcel Rate for international mailing began on January 22, 2018.

One may agree or disagree to follow the law. The law however does not allow for one's personal choice to trump the law. The law is the law. The law likely has penalties in place that will be used to enforce the law. The option: Petition the government to change the law.

Bruce

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michael78651

25 Jul 2018
10:30:32am

re: overseas postage costs

"the sender had always described it as "gift", even when it came from a regular shop."



And that shipment can get confiscated, or duties/taxes/penalties charged to the recipient. Hiding the truth about the shipment can be considered "smuggling". Remember also that intentionally entering false information on the customs form (a government document) is a felony. The US postal service scans the front of all envelopes/packages/etc., and those scans are kept in a database. I'm sure many other countries do the same.

You can be cute all you want by not following the correct procedures for shipping internationally (with a "oh, they won't check on little ol' me" attitude), but you as the shipper can cause serious problems for yourself and your buyers if an agent at the outgoing or incoming border decides to take a look at what you have in the envelope.
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51Studebaker

Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't
25 Jul 2018
10:39:28am

re: overseas postage costs

"...You can be cute all you want by not following the correct procedures for shipping internationally (with a "oh, they won't check on little ol' me" attitude), but you as the shipper can cause serious problems for yourself and your buyers if an agent at the outgoing or incoming border decides to take a look at what you have in the envelope."



Or more likely...
'I am not shipping offshore anymore, there are too many buyers who won't pay or countries who have unreliable delivery!'

Don
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michael78651

25 Jul 2018
10:57:33am

re: overseas postage costs

Don, you are correct where many people in the USA simply do not ship outside the country anymore (I saw in Linn's that Canada Post is raising the postage rates to mail to the US, by the way).

I, for a time, stopped selling outside the US. Then, hearing others comment on people paying the postage/shipping fee, I resumed selling outside the US. My foreign sales used to be around 1/3 of all my sales (on another site). Now it is more like 10%. I don't understand why, but people will buy one stamp for 10 cents, and pay $15.00 shipping. Also, I have repeat buyers who will come back a few weeks later and buy another stamp for 10 cents.


Phil, the Universal Postal Union, has a political element in it. Countries are rated on a scale (sorry I don't recall that right now). The People's Republic of China is considered a "developing nation". Other countries receiving international mail from PR China, and other such categorized countries, have to make up the costs on their end for handling mail from there. That is one reason why our international rates are higher. Linn's had an article on this a few weeks ago. The US is considered to be a "top tier" (for lack of a better term) country, and therefore we have to pay higher international postage rates to help subsidize the cost of other countries handling our and their international mail.

This mess was negotiated under convention among the member states of the UPU. I don't know how long the terms of the convention last, but hopefully when it comes time to renew the convention, we will be able to fix this problem, and move the classification of some countries where they should be.

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51Studebaker

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25 Jul 2018
11:41:30am

re: overseas postage costs

Hi Michael,
Actually, I meant that sellers will blame the buyer and/or the postal system for ‘non-delivery’ when in fact it was their fault for not doing the customs paperwork and/or trying to save money by breaking postal regulations.

In a broader context...
I do not subscribe to a global view of this issue. The simple truth is that there is less and less first class mail being sent and this is making home delivery less and less cost effective. Parcel delivery (due to online sales) is helping offset the sharp decline in first class mail but I do not think that stopping at every home and business is sustainable in the long run.

Further out, even the parcel delivery industry will also start declining as 3D printers and other technologies make many parcels obsolete. We will order widgets online (or our smart houses will order them for us automatically) and the needed item will be printed. For example, your washing machine will identify that a small part is starting to wear and predict that failure of the part will occur in 3 weeks or less. The washing machine (or your smart house computer) will search online, find the best buy for the plans to make the part, download the plans, and send it to your 3D printer. You come home from work and the part is sitting there for you to install.

With fewer and fewer parcels and mail the cost can only increase; it is all about the economy of scale.

As collectors of small bits of paper, we are already seeing it harder and harder to sell and ship small purchases. Postal systems and venues like eBay will continue to do what they must to remain profitable and this means driving larger transactions and increasing prices. Everything is lining up against single stamp sellers; I recommend that folks enjoy what we have now because it is not going to improve as time goes by.
Don

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philb

25 Jul 2018
11:47:08am

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re: overseas postage costs

I have always tried to give people the lowest possible shipping...but i never shipped a single 10 cent stamp before for even 50 cents shipping .

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clivel

25 Jul 2018
12:34:29pm

re: overseas postage costs

"The People's Republic of China is considered a "developing nation". Other countries receiving international mail from PR China, and other such categorized countries, have to make up the costs on their end for handling mail from there."


Well that likely explains something that has been puzzling me for some time now. Often when searching for something on eBay (non-stamp related) the results will be overwhelmed by hundreds of China based suppliers all offering free or minimal charge shipping on items costing only a few dollars.

For example sometime back I needed to replace the back cover of my cell phone. Unable to obtain it locally I turned to eBay where I ordered a replacement. Including postage from China the cost was around $5. Some weeks later a package arrived, about 9x6x4" it completely dwarfed the item inside. Out of curiosity, when I asked the post office clerk what it would cost to mail to another address in my city, I was quoted $11.
So not only are taxpayers in Canada (and presumably the US and other "non-developing nations") subsiding private enterprises in a foreign country, it is completely impossible for domestic businesses to even compete at all.
Clive
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51Studebaker

Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't
25 Jul 2018
12:52:23pm

re: overseas postage costs

Hi Clive,
In US the 'program' is called ePacket and it allows certain Far east countries use the US postal system for pennies. You can do an online search on ePacket to learn more about how they can ship you an item from China for 25 cents but if you have to return it it would cost you several dollars.

Note: In US the taxpayers do not subsidize the postal service, it is a 'stand-alone' business entity and it's profits/losses are its own. So it is the other postal service users which are footing the bill, not taxpayers.
Don

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michael78651

25 Jul 2018
02:07:11pm

re: overseas postage costs

"n US the taxpayers do not subsidize the postal service"



..except for the loans that the US Treasury gives the postal service to stay afloat. When will those be paid back? Yeah, there's some financial wrangling about those loans, but wouldn't it be nice to get a loan and not have to worry about paying it back until you can get around to it?
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51Studebaker

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25 Jul 2018
03:22:47pm

re: overseas postage costs

Hi Michael,
The loans that USPS gets are just like any other company in that they have to pay them back and they have to pay interest and penalties if they do not pay. But it is true that the USPS borrows their money from the Federal Financing Bank at a reduced interest rate of 1.2%.

A far stronger 'subsidized' argument could made about other benefits such as not having to pay state and local property and real estate taxes, not having to pay vehicle tolls, vehicle registration fees, and they do not have to pay parking tickets.

But the biggest 'subsidized' argument is that they are allowed, by law, a total monopoly over mailboxes. No other delivery service is allowed to deliver mail and packages directly to residential and business mailboxes. This is a huge subsidy, estimated to be worth $14 billion a year to the USPS.
Don

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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
25 Jul 2018
07:32:25pm

re: overseas postage costs

Don's comment should be in bold print and sent to everyone
pretending to be a legislator, or would be legislator.

Note: " ...In US the taxpayers do not subsidize
the postal service, it is a 'stand-alone' business entity
and it's profits/losses are its own.
So it is the other
postal service users which are footing the bill,
not taxpayers. ...."



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michael78651

25 Jul 2018
07:42:03pm

re: overseas postage costs

But, the postal service is tied to the Executive Branch, and Congress has oversight of it. That means political meddling, and lobbying by union and other shipping company interests that prevents the postal service from acting like a private entity and making itself profitable.

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Webpaper

In loving memory of Carol, my wife for 52 years.

25 Jul 2018
08:13:04pm

Auctions - Approvals

re: overseas postage costs

Keep in mind we have one of the lowest door to door domestic rates in the world. Many countries have subcontracted out mail delivery and it is no longer door to door but delivered to central mail boxes. There are not post offices in every small town like we are used to.

We also enjoy a service that usually delivers mail in a timely fashion to the correct address. In many countries this is not the case.

Check into the various rates around the world - you might be surprised.

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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
25 Jul 2018
08:24:26pm

re: overseas postage costs

Yes the political meddling distorts the bottom line of the annual P&L statement.

" ... The April 18 editorial “Back to postal reform” attributed the U.S. Postal Service’s financial struggles to “a basic structural problem,” specifying technology that has reduced first-class mail, as well as “rising” costs of employee benefits. But the facts say otherwise. While it’s true that letter mail has declined, technology has led to a rise in package delivery stemming from e-commerce — and the overall result has been sufficient to produce operating profits in three of the past four years, averaging nearly $1 billion annually. That, mind you, without a dime of taxpayer money; by law, USPS relies on earned revenue for its operations. So if USPS takes in more money than it spends on normal business expenses (including health benefits and pensions), why is there red ink? The answer has little to do with technology or employees and everything to do with flawed public policy. In 2006, Congress mandated that USPS do something no other U.S. entity, public or private, is required to do: pre-fund future retiree health benefits decades into the future. That $5.8?billion annual charge accounts for almost all postal “losses.” Lawmakers need to address the illogical pre-funding policy so USPS can continue to provide Americans and their businesses with the industrial world’s most affordable delivery network...."

Fredric Rolando, Washington

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Nikki

26 Jul 2018
01:41:01am

re: overseas postage costs

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
26 Jul 2018
08:33:50am

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re: overseas postage costs

"But, the postal service is tied to the Executive Branch, and Congress has oversight of it. That means political meddling, and lobbying by union and other shipping company interests that prevents the postal service from acting like a private entity and making itself profitable."



true, much to the USPS's dismay. currently there are efforts from the executive branch to privatize the PO, and the VA, and many other long-standing government services. congressional interference in USPS business practice is a long-standing thorn in their side, and the prefunded retirment accounts is a huge drag on the bottom line.

"But the biggest 'subsidized' argument is that they are allowed, by law, a total monopoly over mailboxes. No other delivery service is allowed to deliver mail and packages directly to residential and business mailboxes. This is a huge subsidy, estimated to be worth $14 billion a year to the USPS. "



without this protection, USPS would be one of three delivery services competing for the top-paying accounts and ignoring the rest. The "monopoly" comes with a requirement that all mail be delivered if it fits certain very broad requirments. I, for one, wouldn't want to trade that.
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Jansimon

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26 Jul 2018
08:50:05am

Approvals

re: overseas postage costs

@Nikki, what does this graph show us? price for a priority letter sent abroad? In that case, the listed price for the Netherlands is far off. It is €1.40 and not €0.78 (that's the domestic rate, or at least it was last year. Now it is 5 cents higher). The rate for Denmark is equivalent to 27 DKK, which is the European rate, so the graph does seem a bit inaccurate.

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26 Jul 2018
08:50:35am

Auctions - Approvals

re: overseas postage costs

""without this protection, USPS would be one of three delivery services competing for the top-paying accounts and ignoring the rest. The "monopoly" comes with a requirement that all mail be delivered if it fits certain very broad requirments. I, for one, wouldn't want to trade that. ""



Amen
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michael78651

26 Jul 2018
10:08:01am

re: overseas postage costs

I find it interesting at how the three primary delivery services (USPS, United Parcel Service (UPS) - it replaced the Railway Express Agency, and FedEx actually work together to deliver.

I wonder if the first class mail monopoly were removed if delivery of that mail could become more efficient in the same manner, and would the postal service be a better partner with the other two. Would consolidation result in smaller services getting bought out? Would the big delivery services follow the lead of the major railroads where they haul the cargo the long distances and hand it over to short line roads for delivery, thus getting rid of non-profitable (for the large railroads) routes, but profitable for the short line railroads.

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Nikki

26 Jul 2018
10:50:34am

re: overseas postage costs

I was just trying to compare those US rates with what we pay here.
http://www.anpost.ie/AnPost/MainContent/About+An+Post/Media+Centre/Press+Releases/2017/Postal+rates+2017

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Nikki

26 Jul 2018
11:04:47am

re: overseas postage costs

Would not like to have to pay this postage !
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8 Billion !That'll wake you up in no time.

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scb

Collecting the world 1840 to date - one stamp at a time!
26 Jul 2018
12:18:11pm

re: overseas postage costs

"A dealer in the Netherlands can send us stamps and covers for $1.50 shipping. Perhaps their rules will change also. "



This change is all about UPU IPP (Integrated Product Plan) regulation, which all UPU member countries are expected to rationalize and put into action between 2018/2020. Netherlands and rest of European countries will hop in 2019/2020 when the EU digital customs services are introduced.

According to IPP there will be no letters or anything as such In the future . All mail will be classified either as documents or goods of varying weight and rates. Very likely USPS charging all goods as parcels is just part of 'transitional phase'. Or maybe they are just greedy Crying

From collector point of view the most painful coming is that anything classified as goods (and this means collectables such as stamps) will become subject to customs and taxes when mailed internationally regardless of its value. Currently many countries/areas have various thresholds when imported goods are exempt from customs and taxes. In the future all goods regardless of their value (even 0.01€) will be subject for customs and VAT when mailed to another custom zone.

And yes, all this paints a very worrying picture of the future.

-k-


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26 Jul 2018
02:25:27pm

Auctions - Approvals

re: overseas postage costs

"Currently many countries/areas have various thresholds when imported goods are exempt from customs and taxes."



The thresholds apply to taxes - not to the requirement for customs forms per se. Anything that is classified as "goods" (all things that are not documents) have always required a customs form, whether of any value or not and whether or not being sold or sent as a gift.

What is changing is that "goods" must now go as a parcel and cannot be legally included in a first class letter. Nor can a customs form be placed on anything but a parcel.

And yes - when those other countries comply with the UPU rates to send goods to other countries will go up substantially. I looked at the Netherlands parcel rate and it looked like it is very similar to ours - could be wrong.


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amsd

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27 Jul 2018
07:40:35am

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re: overseas postage costs

"
I wonder if the first class mail monopoly were removed if delivery of that mail could become more efficient in the same manner, and would the postal service be a better partner with the other two."



Michael, if the monopoly were removed, I'd assume the mandate to deliver mail to all would also be removed. if that's the case, AND the USPS had a freer hand in business choices (now that it was no longer mandated to deliver the mail), you'd see the three competing for the choicest packages in the biggest cities. Idaho, Iowa, Wyoming etc would cease to get mail; and mail that was sent wouldn't cost 50c because the PRC would no longer exist.

there already is tremendous cooperation between FedX and USPS (and I think UPS, but i'm less certain about that). They use each others planes, and USPS is often delivering FedX packages. It's brilliant.

But the monopoly insures we get mail; without it, mail will not be affordable and likely one of the three big players will go the way of all those other delivery services whose names i can't recall.

The privatization being discussed will essentially eliminate the mandate, because no business will buy into the PO as currently configured.


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51Studebaker

Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't
27 Jul 2018
08:22:24am

re: overseas postage costs

The USPS is not a natural monopoly but clearly emerged from the government provided legal protection from competition throughout its existence. Despite the growth in parcel delivery, the decline of first class mail is crushing the USPS. (And yes, we understand the artificial budget impact they are carrying with the forward benefits requirements.) But look at this USPS grim press release from earlier this year which clearly indicates that mail declines are far greater than strong package growth.https://about.usps.com/news/national-releases/2018/pr18_012.pdf

The 'last mile' (especially in rural areas) is the clearly most costly, but a lot has changed in the last few decades. Mobility has changed and rural customers can easily reach a kiosk or store to fetch their mail; reducing the need for the ‘last mile’. FedEx and UPS are quite competitive with USPS in parcel services, the only monopoly that USPS has is the most expensive ‘last mile’ for first class mail. Declining volume, highest cost…this put them in a bad situation. As they continue to try to compete with price reductions like workshare discounts, they only makes the profit/loss worse.

Lastly, there are other delivery competitive factors at work moving forward. Amazon, with sales representing a whopping 43.5% of all e-commerce, is driving hard to create and implement its own delivery business (called “Shipping With Amazon”). Drones and other self-autonomous vehicles will play bigger roles in the future giving others even more self-delivery options.

So I do not share the opinion that rural areas would be left without service if the USPS were to go private or even die a slow death.
Don

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sheepshanks

27 Jul 2018
09:11:16am

re: overseas postage costs

Just a couple of thoughts while I sit in the sunshine on England's south coast (yay for holidays).
Firstly, if I really need a stamp I will pay the postage, even if many times the item cost.
Secondly, my residence in rural Canada does not get deliveries of mail, we have a locked box at the post office 9 miles away. Even businesses in town have to collect their mail.
We are unable to get online deliveries to our door as our address, SW5-15-16 W does not appear on mapping systems. We live on a gravel road off the main highway. The closest description I can supply would be "the junction of roads 89 north & 95 west"
The costs are what they are and we need to accept them and move on, though I can see this will be a problem for some buyers/sellers.

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michael78651

27 Jul 2018
10:39:33am

re: overseas postage costs

To prevent what you experience in Canada, the United States implemented what is known as "Rural Free Delivery". The first delivery, under the "RFD" program was made in 1896.

A brief note from Wikipedia:

"Rural Free Delivery (RFD) is a service which began in the United States in the late 19th century, to deliver mail directly to rural farm families. Prior to RFD, individuals living in more remote homesteads had to pick up mail themselves at sometimes distant post offices or pay private carriers for delivery (this fee was in addition to the postage paid by the mailer)."

Therein lies the cost of that "last mile" delivery. The US Postal Service even today still delivers mail using mules (to an inaccessible Indian village within the Grand Canyon).

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michael78651

27 Jul 2018
10:48:05am

re: overseas postage costs

Dave and Don, I think if privatization of the postal service were to occur, you'd probably see a hybrid of what we are discussing. I don't think the big three (USPS, FedEx and UPS - yes, all three deliver the last mile for each other) will go away. They will strengthen their collaboration. Prices will probably go up for letter mail delivery, which will almost certainly send that service to the ancient history files for the most part.

What happens to the smaller delivery services, well that may turn into what it was before the US Post Office Department got the monopoly on first class mail whereby many small courier services sprung up in the larger cities (see the Scott US Specialized for those courier service that issued stamps). For the rural areas, regional service may spring up as has happened as I said with the railroads.

Things have to change with mail delivery. First Class mail is not sustainable as technology continues to drive first class mail to it demise.

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sheepshanks

27 Jul 2018
10:54:27am

re: overseas postage costs

I remember reading the article, here is the link.


https://insider.si.edu/2016/08/grand-canyon-u-s-postal-service-still-delivers-mail-mule/

Maybe this service needs amending, Canada Post just basically stopped the service.

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StampWrangler

27 Jul 2018
01:00:59pm

re: overseas postage costs

Thanks for the mule mail article link. Fascinating!

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DaveSheridan

27 Jul 2018
08:46:00pm

re: overseas postage costs

Image Not Found

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StampWrangler

27 Jul 2018
10:54:29pm

re: overseas postage costs

Oh that is totally cool!

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malcolm197

23 Aug 2018
12:33:06pm

re: overseas postage costs

Can I add a couple of what if ?

You don't have access to private or public transport - and yes there are still tens of thousands of people in the UK that this applies to.

You don't have access to a computer or your broadband speed is poor, or you are so worried about personal security that you don't make financial transactions on line ( the last applies to me).

Your educational standard, health issues or lifestyle makes it difficult to cope with technology, and you live in a rural area.

All the above tends to apply to people on low incomes with limited assets, or those of a certain age.

We are already widening the gap between the haves and the have nots. It is bad enough for those in unfortunate circumstances to cope with life, but governments worldwide seem to be in the business of creating an institutionalised underclass using the excuse of costs.

It seems to me that said governments are failing in their duty to provide an environment suitable for ALL their citizens instead of just for the rich and powerful." We only want to do business with those to whom it is convenient for us". I suggest that anyone on less than 50% of mean average wage is not getting value for money for their taxes.

Malcolm

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HungaryForStamps

23 Aug 2018
01:42:33pm

re: overseas postage costs

Besides the obvious guarantee of last mile service, don't forget that USPS used to be, or at least should be, a means of exporting US values to the world. I know its less important now than it was, but the USPS is one means of promoting brand USA, and its hard to put a value on that. Privatization is the wrong direction for USPS.

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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
26 Aug 2018
01:36:30am

re: overseas postage costs

" .....Besides the obvious guarantee of last mile service,
don't forget that USPS used to be, or at least should be,
a means of exporting US values to the world....."


I'd love to comment, but it would appear to be
an ungracious political remark, so I will not.

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".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
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DaveSheridan

26 Aug 2018
03:51:02am

re: overseas postage costs

"that USPS used to be, or at least should be, a means of exporting US values to the world"



Please don't. At least not at the moment I Don't Want To See

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