Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Their wall paper issues can be spotted from miles away and are depriving those counties of having an unique philatelic presence. Now all of them look the same. Lots of stamps are printed, lots of high values and all of them, quite uncollectable. You may consider letting Stamperija know what you think of their work.
The reality is if we do not push, nothing will change. Same with the self adhesive stamps that never soak.
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Thankfully I do not collect beyond 1970. However I purchased some Dahomey stamps from approvals recently and found it pretty depressing that the latter stamps, late 1960s onwards, depicted themes that, I feel, had little, if anything to do with Dahomey.
Regards
Richmond
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My worldwide collecting also ends in the 1969/70 timeframe..so every time i dream about updating my 2012 scott catalogs i dismiss the thought and spend the money on stamps instead.
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I guess I don't understand. Who actually buys these issues? I see them eventually listed in Scott's/Linns, but is there a collector market? Except for a few things that amuse me issued by US and UK, I no longer collect things contemporary. That ship has sailed.
Geoff
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I would have considered adding a few modern stamps from those countries if they had a sensible program and issued no more than 20 stamps a year. Under the current circumstances, I would avoid them at all cost. Even a postally used stamp from there has no appeal to me if designed by Stamperija.
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I'm going to respectfully disagree here.
Wallpaper is ONE way that kids can get interested. Resale value is nonexistent, but that's true in virtually any stamp we buy UNTIL we're experienced collectors and are buying, with an educated pallette, as investment.
Scott doesn't list stamps that aren't valid for postage, so any issues outside the government's approved issuers ought to be outside Scott's domain. However, as you can often see from newer members here, Scott is an alien entity. So Scott is immaterial; the only thing that counts is that the stamp somehow calls to the buyer.
We have little control over stamp issuing entities. If we did, we'd never have seen stamps that don't soak or the destruction of the entire PNC industry for no discernible reason.
David
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David, if the stamps were not meant for us, the collectors, all countries, USA and Canada included would have switched to simple machine labels, that are still used on most mail. We do have control.
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I do not mind the stamps being only printed overseas. The actual design and issuing program for the year are in my opinion way more important. You look at issues from Niger or the Central African Republic and you get the impression these must be countries inhabited by white people and polar bears and located just a wee bit south of the North Pole.
Yes, I am also hoping those stamps will disappear with time and the "willing participants" will realize their mistake. In all probability the residents of those countries would not approve of what goes on their stamps; so I doubt we can speak for the country as a whole as being "willing".
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Hi Everyone;
Whatever topical subjects these nations choose to put on their stamps is fine by me. Most topical collectors couldn't give a hoot or a holler whether they are native to those issuing nations or not. Many topical collectors do not collect for "collectible value" at all. For that matter, very very few stamps printed after 1940 will ever be worth more than a few bucks a pound.
Many newer and younger collectors have been drawn to our hobby specifically because of these topicals, Most of them could care less about postal history, or about history in general, because their attention span is for too short. They grew up on MTV and tweeting, instead of meaningful conversations.
If these types of stamps help to bring our children and grandchildren into our hobby, then I say let them stay and hope they print many more too.
@ Cougar;
Not everyone chooses to collect just like you do, in fact, many members on SOR probably don't collect that way either. I don't care for collecting covers, or about postal history either. I do enjoy that others like to, and like reading most of their threads on here. Sometimes I pass on material that I don't collect to those other types of collectors.
I've learned a great deal about Viet Nam from Bobstamp's posts, and a good bit of history from many other members, and thank them for their contributions. I don't care to collect the way that they do, but have sold many of my unneeded items to them. One member (bobstamp) even added one of those items to his website on aviation.
Still sortin'....
TuskenRaider
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TuskenRider, it is a scary concept to mass produce colorful topical stamps for kids; stamps that have zero educational or cultural value, and stamps that depict a country in a completely misleading way. By doing that we can only generate future zombies, with a short attention span and unable to think for themselves. Maybe this is the purpose?
Anyways, we all have opinions and I expressed mine, which may be different from yours and so be it.
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Not a problem coogar....
TuskenRaider
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"Maybe this is the purpose?"
panem et circenses.
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06:52:48am
" ... Nie mój cyrk, ... nie maje malpy. ..."
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I had not heard of this company before, but what they do is nothing new. In the 1960s and 70s a guy called Finnbar Kenny (or Kenney) created all the Arab Dunes purely for the philatelic market, as well as these truly terrible stamps from Cook Islands, Niue, Aitutaki, Penrhyn etc. from the 1970s. Lots of goldpaint and baroque designs.
Currently IGPC (Inter-Governmental Philatelic Corporation), which despite its name is a private business, is responsible for about half of all stamps produced each year. Its customers are mainly third world countries and in its own words the company "assists its clients in releasing a new breed of postage stamps, which honor pop culture and sport heroes of the day including Elvis Presley, Marilyn Monroe, Pokémon, Popeye, John Lennon, the Walt Disney cartoon characters and classic motion pictures, Jackie Chan, Barbra Streisand, Bob Dylan, Major League Baseball, NFL Superbowl, and the Sylvester Stallone 'Rocky' motion pictures to name just a few."
All very logical and appropriate subjects for countries like Tuvalu, Gambia, Guyana, Liberia, Grenada, St. Vincent, Antigua etc. Just think of a country that issues (American) thematic stamps and 10 to 1 it is an IGPC customer...
As has been pointed out, the company provides a service to both the countries they create stamps for as well as the collectors who are still keen to get Bob Dylan stamps. When the demand is no longer there, IGPC will also cease to be, or will revert to the "boring" business of printing stamps with dead presidents, local scenery and flags :-)
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i'm circling around, saying the same thing, but in a different way:
few of us started collecting rates between US and Estonia or wet and dry varieties of the Liberty Series. Most of us started with shiny baubles that caught our eye.
I don't quite understand the difference between USPS, which commemorates mohogany flooring on speed boats, and Kinney, IGPC, or Fujipar. Some of it is intended to move the mail, and some to separate a collector from his funds.
I do think that there are 100s of unnecessary stamps issued each year, but Deutsche Post and USPS are as guilty as any African nation or private label issuer
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Look at Marlen stamps with the 2 page ads in the stamp magazines..someone must be buying the Sylvestor Stallone and Marilyn stamps or they could not afford the ads.
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"I do think that there are 100s of unnecessary stamps issued each year, but Deutsche Post and USPS are as guilty as any African nation or private label issuer"
My sentiments as well.
And as uncanny as it may seem to some, agency stamps (Stamperija,IGPC, Kenney etc) do get licked and used to pay postage as well (see below image for example from Chad). The fact you don't see genuine used specimens often relates to low print and usage numbers (many being far more difficult to obtain than most of the classical issues).
-k-
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Keijo's comment reminded me of the time I bought a dozen or so small dunes collections from one of our club members. Most were a couple of stamps and some FDC covers. Each collection was offered at a quarter, and some, receiving no bids, were added to the following lot, meaning I'd get 3 or 4 small collections for a quarter. One of these, along with the other dunes, was South Arabia, and included two postally used registered covers. Each sold for well over $200.
David
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There are a few lines in my story
1) too many stamps printed - I agree, most countries are guilty of that today. Taking Japan for example, between 1871 and 2001 they issued approximately 3,150 stamps (a 130 year span). Then between 2001 and the end of 2012 they issued another 3,150 stamps (in just 11 years) I have to give up on them too.
2) design of stamps - I agree, different people, different ages, different tastes. However what I see with Stamperija is the same designing technique used across their whole spectrum of countries making the latter lose their unique philatelic face, if you wish. I cannot agree with that.
3) what goes on the stamps - It must be us, the collectors influencing the issuing programs as there are so many flora and fauna stamps; enough to cover the walls of the largest house. However I cannot agree that 9 out of 10 people on a stamp issued in an African country have to be white and having nothing to do with the country itself.
SCB, I can read "PHILAT***" in that cancellation above which makes me think the stamp wasn't used on regular mail.
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"SCB, I can read "PHILAT***" in that cancellation above which makes me think the stamp wasn't used on regular mail."
True, that's not the usual N-DJAMENA R.P.E1 postmark, but N-DJAMENA PHILATELIE meaning it was posted from the main post office philatelic dept. Whether or not one considers it as 'true' usage is matter of opinion. But if I compare it to Finland or Sweden, where a number of special issues (miniature sheets, stamps with traditional lickable gum etc) are available only at head post offices philatelic or at (online) order only, then how are things different? Many of the modern stamps are never made available to wide public the same way as in the early days simply because there are a number of (cheaper/more efficient) alternative ways to show that postage has been paid.
But let's take another controversy piece of Chad 'wallpaper'.... The problem with this one is that the stamp might be 'illegal'. In late 1999 a number of Millenium sheets (9 stamps per sheet, each sheet with different designs & values) was released under name of Chad. These are mostly found in mint condition, occasional FDC-cancelled copies circle around. A number of African countries have deemed similar issues as illegals on UPU circulars, but Chad hasn't. Scott lists these Millenium stamps, Michel doesn't... So is the postmark bogus as well, or have some of these stamps have actually made their way to Chad? There are no easy answers with modern items as this.
-k-
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Scb, I would take the last stamp as a legitimate postally used example. Both the cancellation and the way the stamp was separated from the sheet suggest it is legit.
To have nice even perforations on all sides, the sheet has to be folded along the perforations a couple of times before the separation starts. This is what a collector or someone cautious about the stamp will do (at a philatelic bureau) At a post office a clerk will simply rip a stamp off the sheet.
My guess about the first stamp was that it came from a FDC or similar material originating from a philatelic bureau.
Cancellations are probably not that difficult to fake and with the modern equipment even stamps can easily be forged, I imagine. For this reason I stick with collecting relatively cheap and basic material.
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"My guess about the first stamp was that it came from a FDC or similar material originating from a philatelic bureau."
Chad (along few other African countries) has used a double-ring PREMIER JOUR FDC cancellecation somewhat consistently for 40+years, so not from FDC I can say (I've sheen the FDCs for this particular issue as well). The most likely option is that some (western) collector walked to philatelic counter, bought some stamps & mailed a bunch of letters.
"Cancellations are probably not that difficult to fake and with the modern equipment even stamps can easily be forged, I imagine. For this reason I stick with collecting relatively cheap and basic material. "
My sentiments as well. I did pay stunning few cents a piece for above (bought a stockbook filled with modern French speaking Africa - about 99% properly used).
-k-
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I know.. everyone is sitting with bated breath waiting with the question, "What does Tom think?" Yea right! 
Here's the deal. This is one of those "the more things change, the more they stay the same" things. If you go back in history, you don't have to look any further than our own United States of America for signs of collector gouging. In 1893, we had the Columbian Exposition series, with a total face value of $16.34. The average daily wage ranged from $1.25 to $2.25 that year. So the cost of that set was between 7-13 days labor for the average person!
My very unscientific survey says that from 1900 to 1949, 693 stamps were issued or 14 per year. The next 50 years through 1999 showed 2389 stamps or 48 per year. Then in the past 15 years that my catalog allowed, USPS issued 1615 stamps or 108 a year!
So we don't have to look out to the International Wallpaper Factory for examples of stamps being issued beyond postal requirements. When we had the thread "Who is worthy of a US stamp?" that hit me as gee, Bart Simpson and Beetle Bailey have been on a stamp, I guess anything goes.
And keep in mind that stamps were issued and saved in such vast quantities that virtually any US stamp beyond 1940 is worth face value or less, so it's a recipe for disaster.
Note that the wallpaper factory only exists because somebody is buying the stuff. Figure it's low level collectors from around the world who buy from those big companies that advertise in the Sunday paper magazine section. The value is in the initial sale as profited by the factory and the supposed postal authority, and the stamps will be virtually worthless for resale. If nobody purchased this stuff, obviously the factory would be out of business.
Back when I was in high school, in the dark ages of the 1970s, my friend Carlos told me his father was a big stamp collector with a valuable collection. So I made a point of meeting him. The father was very happy to meet a young stamp collector and took me to his stamp den. He had a wall of shelving with binders, looking very impressive! He opened an album and on quadrille pages he had hand lettered, all the stamps were those CTO sand dune commemorative sets!
He thought this was a serious collection and would be valuable someday. He had a new issue subscription with one of those companies. Lord knows how much this cost him!
So collect what you like and ignore the rest!
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"So collect what you like and ignore the rest! "
Amen to that, Tom!
If you like it - for WHATEVER reason - go ahead and collect it!
After all, it's for YOUR enjoyment.
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I do agree, collect what you like but......
"As many of you probably know, Stamperija is a stamp issuing agency that has taken over the stamp production for many countries in Africa as we as the Solomon Islands and the Maldives.
Their wall paper issues can be spotted from miles away and are depriving those counties of having an unique philatelic presence. Now all of them look the same. Lots of stamps are printed, lots of high values and all of them, quite uncollectable. You may consider letting Stamperija know what you think of their work.
The reality is if we do not push, nothing will change. Same with the self adhesive stamps that never soak. "
....I am still not sure (having read through the entire thread a few times) if the original poster was talking about Postage stamps ?! Please excuse my 'slowness of uptake' but I just wanted to be sure if the reference was to an Official Stamp Issuing agency, like Crown Agents for example, or to a Company printing stamps for profit which have nothing to do with inscribed nation ?????? There is a big difference of course but I was only curious now as I see some mention of dubious issues.
Regarding the excess of issues nowadays I agree that it has got totally out of hand. Even with the topics/subjects. And there is no one to talk to.
I collected Great Britain until 2009. I stopped because I couldn't afford it anymore and because of their pathetic excuses for issuing 'security Machins'! A short time after, I stopped collecting all Postage stamps.
Next week, Royal Mail will have a new Commemorative called Game of Thrones. When I first read about this last week I googled 'Game of Thrones' because I had never heard of it. It was the first GB issue EVER that I have known nothing about. I was shocked about what I saw and even more shocked that RM could even think about commemorating such junk.
But yes I agree, collect what you want !!
Londonbus1
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I cannot help thinking if all the talk about the 'badness' of pop-culture on stamps is more a result of 'traditional collectors' refusing to accept the changing world than general public truly feeling bad that the stamps of today are mostly pretty flowers, pretty animals and pop-culture.
I mean, if you go to street and ask random folks do they know William Blake or Kwame Nkrumah, then most will not know. But if you ask do they know Game of Thrones or Kim Kardashian, then most will recognize the names easily - some may even tell how much they love them. Bringing pop-culture to stamps is not just clever marketing, I would say it is pretty much also what the general audience (with exception of some collectors) truly wants.
The times they are a changing (and as such very few folks besides us 'oldies' know songs of Bob Dylan anymore).
-k-
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"The times they are a changing......so let's degrade ourselves with the times"
I will send that to Royal Mail to go on their next circular !!
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Micheal, I believe you missed Keijo's point. IF we want new collectors in the field, we best appeal to them. The number of people already reading Booker Prize-winning authors is pretty low, so if we start with that as the universe we plumb, our small-n success sample will fit in the hold of the Santa Maria.
Erudition comes later, after they've read enough of our posts that our brilliance is ingested.
Until then aim for Spitfires and Typhoons and Pretty Ponies and Jaba the Hutt
David
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How does one pronounce "stameperija" in English? Just curious. Hard J? Soft J? I see it and it annoys me not to know what to say.
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I understand Keijo's point perfectly but there has to be a limit, surely. If not then we are doomed.
I am not against modern topics on stamps if that's what is wanted by the public.......of any country, from any country. But is there a line?
Which brings me back to a question I asked in an earlier post about the stamps produced by Stamperija. Are they legitimate stamps ? Are they available in the Post Offices of the countries inscribed upon them ? If so then that's fine but it would be interesting to know what the people of those Nations think, don't you agree.
So back to the 'modern' topics and specifically to the one I mentioned in my post yesterday. I should first of all apologize for being 'old' and have no clue about what is, or what is not, on TV because I don't watch it !
Is it OK for the other 'oldies' to experience this scenario......for example:
(Tongue-in-Cheek please).
Larry Duck was sitting quietly at his desk studying his Key-Plate Bermuda Stamps of KGV.
Suddenly the door flies open! It was his 9-year old Son, Donald.
"Dad, my new issue order has arrived from Royal Mail but I didn't know what the stamps were about so I googled them on Mum's computer. I got lots of pictures of naked ladies doing things with naked men and lots of blood and guts"
Larry was too engrossed in his Key-Plates,
"Really Son. Good"
"But Dad, is this really what the stamps are about? Huey and Dewey from next door came to visit and they want to know"
Larry was oblivious to everything during his quiet stamp time,
"Yes Son. Probably"
"But Dad....."
"Not now Son" Larry interrupted.
"So is it OK if I buy some stamps I found in the market showing Madonna and Kylie Minogue with no clothes on ? I think they were from Africa somewhere"
"Yes Son, OK"
"Gee, thanks Dad".
Londonbus1......waiting for the next gruesome topic on stamps ! Executions maybe? (I believe they have been popular in recent years).
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Hi Everyone;
I'm going to have to stop reading this silly thread. It is making me laugh so hard my ribs are sore! 
It is amazing how many older collectors just can't get their heads around the idea that not everyone collects the same material as them, or collects it in the same manner, or collect at all for the same reasons. 
Some collect to learn postal history, others to learn about topics like butterflies, birds or whatever. Some collect to various war themes, so again history. There are as many reasons to collect as there are stars in the Milky Way, including lots of interesting space and astronomy themed stamps. 
In the time it has taken me to read this jibber-jabber, I could have mounted over 200 classic US stamps.
So just keep on sortin' those jam jar labels....
TuskenRaider
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There's nothing silly about this thread. Confusing maybe but not silly. Bit harsh, so maybe it's best you stick with US Classics !!
Anyone going to chip in and tell me/us about the stamps of Stamperija? I get conflicting online reports and comments (not that there are that many).
thanks.
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I guess I missed YOUR point, Michael.
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The more things change…
A few years ago I read a US newspaper article from 1869 which was highly critical of the new pictorial stamps being issued. It mentioned that the general public hated them and felt the post office was simply issuing stamps for the sake of issuing stamps and generating income.
Yet now these stamps are highly sought after and prized by collectors. Ditto for the Columbian issued a few years later 1893. The post office came under a lot of criticism for excessive issuing of stamps that were not really wanted or needed; and they sold very poorly.
Odd how history repeats itself...
Don
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"The stamps of Stamperija are legitimate stamps but not usually available in-country."
But I can still buy them from Stamperija, like you did, and use them in that particular country ? Can I use all of those inscribed (Say Republique du Mali) in that country ? I am trying to work out for myself (because I find the topic very interesting) if there are Bogus issues involved as I saw these mentioned in an earlier post in the same sentence as 'sand Dunes' which were mostly bogus including the covers.
How are those nations making money ? Stamperija need to sell them to the Governments AND make a profit. It all seems rather strange and more than a little 'fishy' to me, but is worth a bit more research. I am checking the UPU regulations but it's a massive task !!
Thanks to Anglophile for answering my query.
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It sounds somewhat similar to the Seebeck issues for various Latin American countries in the 1890s.
In that case (to quote Wikipedia):
"Seebeck sold his New York stamp business in 1884 and used the money to buy into the Hamilton Bank Note Engraving and Printing Co.
In 1889, Seebeck developed a novel plan for Hamilton to print stamps for foreign countries.
He offered to supply the stamps for free, provided that:
1. The stamps would be dated and invalidated at the end of each year, to be replaced by a new series.
2. Unsold (invalid) stamps would be returned to Seebeck for sale to collectors.
3. Seebeck retained the right to reprint any invalid stamps as needed for sale to collectors."
Again this was a win/win for the printer and the countries concerned but it badly affected the reputation of these countries' stamps amongst collectors for many years.
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"Yet now these stamps are highly sought after and prized by collectors. Ditto for the Columbian issued a few years later 1893. The post office came under a lot of criticism for excessive issuing of stamps that were not really wanted or needed; and they sold very poorly.
Odd how history repeats itself..."
Yep. In general everything that is deemed as 'pariah' by one generation of collectors, will sooner or later be re-established/re-valued by later generations. For example 'sand dunes' are now in middle of that process IMHO.
"I am trying to work out for myself (because I find the topic very interesting) if there are Bogus issues involved as I saw these mentioned in an earlier post in the same sentence as 'sand Dunes' which were mostly bogus including the covers."
AFAIK Stamperija stamps should be all legit and with valid contracts.
Where all the contradiction and confusion arises is the fact that some of the names/persons associated to origins of Stamperija may got a 'more colorful' past involving a bit of this and that with 'stamp-like label' production. But people/business can change their ways over time...
-k-
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Hi Everyone;
londonbus1 said:
"There's nothing silly about this thread. Confusing maybe but not silly. Bit harsh, so maybe it's best you stick with US Classics !!"
@ (cougar) & (londonbus1)
To take this much time to badmouth stamps just because they do not meet your collecting fetish is VERY silly.
What is harsh are your opinions on these stamps, and how they may affect prospective new collectors!
There are many good reasons for some collectors to enjoy collecting these stamps.
(amsd) could not have said it better:
amsd said;
"Wallpaper is ONE way that kids can get interested. Resale value is nonexistent, but that's true in virtually any stamp we buy UNTIL we're experienced collectors and are buying, with an educated pallette, as investment."
amsd said;
"few of us started collecting rates between US and Estonia or wet and dry varieties of the Liberty Series. Most of us started with shiny baubles that caught our eye."
amsd said;
"Micheal, I believe you missed Keijo's point. IF we want new collectors in the field, we best appeal to them."
@ (cougar) & (londonbus1)
If prospective new collectors and possible new SOR members read your harsh opinions of these stamps they may not join SOR at all. If they do join, they would be very unlikely to post images to show off their collections, or not post at all on here, for fear of further harsh remarks about their collecting choices!
Cougar said;
"TuskenRider, it is a scary concept to mass produce colorful topical stamps for kids; stamps that have zero educational or cultural value, and stamps that depict a country in a completely misleading way. By doing that we can only generate future zombies, with a short attention span and unable to think for themselves. Maybe this is the purpose?"
In what universe is it required that hobbies are supposed to teach us anything? Hobbies are for fun, and enjoyment, nothing else. If you need it to be a learning experience for your own enjoyment, that is fine. Don't try to push your ideology onto other collectors. That will only discourage them, especially the younger ones.
Anglophile said;
"I don't think anything would be accomplished by sending critical messages to Stamperija. They have willing customer countries and those countries have willing buyers. If you don't like this product, don't buy the stamps. The power of the purse is often greater than the pen."
So if there are stamps that you detest that much, then just don't buy them, and we can all solve this silly rant, and go back to what we all enjoy....just collecting stamps.
Still just sortin'....
TuskenRaider
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A bit scary.
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The fact that we do not, or would not, collect stamps we don't like doesn't mean we cannot engage in sensible discussion about them. The Stamperija phenomenon is a debate the major catalogue compilers must have among themselves (hence the large amount of material that doesn't get into Gibbons and doubtless Scott), so if we can shed light or move it forward, we should be doing so.
I agree that restatement of firmly-held positions can become tedious, but that is no excuse for further and increasingly angry restatement of positions.
I'm not offering opinions on this one - I think I've made it clear in the past that for my "World War Two" commemorative albums there are many Stamperija-type issues which I avoid. There is a good example of this on another thread ("Violence on stamps") where one particularly graphic image emanates from an issuing entity which has no warrant to publish such material: it didn't partake in WW2. I find that discomforting, but ultimately it is irrelevant to my collecting.
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I get the impression that there are at least two questions hiding behind the heading:
One is about the postal validity of these stamps. This seems the easy one: as long as the postal authority in the country in whose name the stamps were printed says so, they are valid, and hence should be listed in a catalog of postage stamps. How, should perhaps be discussed elsewhere (I'd love to see definitives and commemoratives/pictorial listed separately, others have told me they don't think so).
The other is about the perceived value to collectors, and the "worthiness" of these stamps to be included in a collection. That's a tricky one, but in general I'd say, live and let live. The flood of new issues makes a complete collection, even of a single country, nearly impossible anyway, even without stamps issued by agencies. Likewise, it will hardly be possible to gather all stamps with a specific topic. So, let's forget about completeness and collect what we like. After all, collecting is not so much about monetary value. It's about having fun first and foremost.
Also let's keep in mind that the pop culture stamps are not issued with country collectors in mind. They are meant to appeal to fans of the specific movies, music groups, actors, authors, whatever. The sad bit is that many people apparently have not realised that they can easily spoil the fun by thinking about value, and the agencies from Seebeck to Stamperija and even some postal administrations are banking upon that. Also, there can be too much of a good thing - even if I were interested in, say, stamps celebrating the Harry Potter series, I would not need them from every imaginable country in the world.
A historical footnote: the Michel catalog had a special sign for "issues detrimental to philately" in the late 1950s. They gave up on using it later. These days, we could perhaps use a sign for "issues in accordance with postal needs" - there would not be too many of these ;-)
Martin
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I think you make some good points, Martin. I love the music of Johnny Cash and the US sheet that came out a short while back commemorating him was one that I needed to have. I also wanted the eclipse set that came out in 2017 as I have a strong interest in that area and was intrigued by the "thermal printing" of those stamps. These are the only stamps that I've ever ordered from abroad. I probably wouldn't order stamps of Johnny Cash from "Stamperija" countries but I could understand why dedicated fans of music memorabilia would.
The Emu
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"These days, we could perhaps use a sign for "issues in accordance with postal needs" - there would not be too many of these ;-)"
Martin, I consider the definite issues to be always or mostly in accordance with postal needs.
What I wanted to emphasize is the lack of educational value in the Stamperija issues as a result of the misleading information a basic collector may get.
Ideally you get a stamp with a lion from Kenya and you admire it and you think about the lions living in this country. How do you feel about getting a stamp with a polar bear from Kenya? Is it the same as a stamp with a polar bear from Norway or Canada?
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Of course, definitives are mostly all right, not counting perhaps the Seebecks and some issues of modern stamps in special formats (such as sheets printed in low numbers or only sold on stamp shows, you get the idea).
As for the educational value or the lack thereof, it ties in with what I meant with not needing all stamps of a certain topic. I guess that even most children will realize that, say, a landlocked country and penguins don't really fit together (unless they've got them in a zoo). On the other hand, some people might just find such stamp issues endearingly quaint.
The only real problem that I see is when somebody advertises these issues (that IMHO just tell us about the lack of imagination of the people in the agencies) as "must-haves" and asks high prices for them. I hold that everybody should decide for themselves, and that such decisions should best be backed by knowledge. We do not have to buy these agency issues, do we?
Martin
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"One is about the postal validity of these stamps. This seems the easy one: as long as the postal authority in the country in whose name the stamps were printed says so, they are valid, and hence should be listed in a catalog of postage stamps. "
I don't know about today's wallpaper, but my foggy memory reminds me of the sand dune issues back in the 1970s. I remember someone saying they were in one of the issuing countries and being told the stamps they had were not valid. It's pretty evident that these stamps go straight from the printer to the distributor, never even having been in the country that supposedly issued them. Collectors don't have any contact in the issuing countries, so they're taking the word of the printer and distributors that these are indeed stamps.
I remember some of the sand dunes weren't even countries, they were states or regions that wouldn't issue stamps anyway.
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I think (I hope) we've pretty much exhausted this thread.
I wanted to point out that not being a country doesn't mean a stamp (or label if you prefer) isn't perfectly collectible.
I'll happily trade you some honest to goodness made in the USA stamps for some Czech Legion or LVF. Neither represented a country, although both were specific to members of a particular region (Czechoslovakia wouldn't exist for another year). I wouldn't mind some postally used stamps from Kosovo or Abkhazia. you get my point.
David
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07:28:47pm
" .... If prospective new collectors and possible new SOR members
read your harsh opinions of these stamps they may not join SOR at all.
If they do join, they would be very unlikely to post images
to show off their collections, or not post at all on here,
for fear of further harsh remarks about their collecting choices! ...."
I certainly agree about avoiding an ill-chosen harsh remark
about what anyone collects. That is unacceptable
in a club such as this, one that prides itself in being
a welcoming, friendly on-line philatelic group.
However, we also need to be honest with new members,
especially about the complicated subject of value,
something that so many members spend so much time and effort.
collecting, calculating, collating as well as undoubtedly
dreaming about.
I have been present so many times when some unaware accumulator
discovers that the true value of their collection is,
somewhere between minimal and non-existant.
I've seen that dissapointment register on, up till then,
a happy face. In fact, over the years it has fallen on me
as a long term stamper to deliver the coup de grâce
to the dreams that ofter populate our musings.
It saddens me when someone who is so proud of his accumulation
of pretty wallpaper and jam jar labels suddenly
begine to comprehend that my answer anout worth, value,
or selling price can barely cover an afternoon' snack
at the local Micky D's.
I have seen that transformation more than once
via a harsh dismissal by less considerate informmant,
and have also tried to cushion the fall mysel.
An empathy cushion, I often explained to sakesmen I was training
is a delicate explanation reminding the listener of the benefits
and pleasure he or she obtained from the hobby and other positive
aspects allowing as graceful exit as possible and if done properly
provides the inquirer dignity.
Offering a harsh answer from people who have unresolved
social issues of their own, and eliminate the possibiity
of building a friendship with what is left.
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As many of you probably know, Stamperija is a stamp issuing agency that has taken over the stamp production for many countries in Africa as we as the Solomon Islands and the Maldives.
Their wall paper issues can be spotted from miles away and are depriving those counties of having an unique philatelic presence. Now all of them look the same. Lots of stamps are printed, lots of high values and all of them, quite uncollectable. You may consider letting Stamperija know what you think of their work.
The reality is if we do not push, nothing will change. Same with the self adhesive stamps that never soak.
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re: Stamperija
Thankfully I do not collect beyond 1970. However I purchased some Dahomey stamps from approvals recently and found it pretty depressing that the latter stamps, late 1960s onwards, depicted themes that, I feel, had little, if anything to do with Dahomey.
Regards
Richmond
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re: Stamperija
My worldwide collecting also ends in the 1969/70 timeframe..so every time i dream about updating my 2012 scott catalogs i dismiss the thought and spend the money on stamps instead.
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09:22:23pm
re: Stamperija
I guess I don't understand. Who actually buys these issues? I see them eventually listed in Scott's/Linns, but is there a collector market? Except for a few things that amuse me issued by US and UK, I no longer collect things contemporary. That ship has sailed.
Geoff
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re: Stamperija
I would have considered adding a few modern stamps from those countries if they had a sensible program and issued no more than 20 stamps a year. Under the current circumstances, I would avoid them at all cost. Even a postally used stamp from there has no appeal to me if designed by Stamperija.
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I'm going to respectfully disagree here.
Wallpaper is ONE way that kids can get interested. Resale value is nonexistent, but that's true in virtually any stamp we buy UNTIL we're experienced collectors and are buying, with an educated pallette, as investment.
Scott doesn't list stamps that aren't valid for postage, so any issues outside the government's approved issuers ought to be outside Scott's domain. However, as you can often see from newer members here, Scott is an alien entity. So Scott is immaterial; the only thing that counts is that the stamp somehow calls to the buyer.
We have little control over stamp issuing entities. If we did, we'd never have seen stamps that don't soak or the destruction of the entire PNC industry for no discernible reason.
David
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re: Stamperija
David, if the stamps were not meant for us, the collectors, all countries, USA and Canada included would have switched to simple machine labels, that are still used on most mail. We do have control.
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I do not mind the stamps being only printed overseas. The actual design and issuing program for the year are in my opinion way more important. You look at issues from Niger or the Central African Republic and you get the impression these must be countries inhabited by white people and polar bears and located just a wee bit south of the North Pole.
Yes, I am also hoping those stamps will disappear with time and the "willing participants" will realize their mistake. In all probability the residents of those countries would not approve of what goes on their stamps; so I doubt we can speak for the country as a whole as being "willing".
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re: Stamperija
Hi Everyone;
Whatever topical subjects these nations choose to put on their stamps is fine by me. Most topical collectors couldn't give a hoot or a holler whether they are native to those issuing nations or not. Many topical collectors do not collect for "collectible value" at all. For that matter, very very few stamps printed after 1940 will ever be worth more than a few bucks a pound.
Many newer and younger collectors have been drawn to our hobby specifically because of these topicals, Most of them could care less about postal history, or about history in general, because their attention span is for too short. They grew up on MTV and tweeting, instead of meaningful conversations.
If these types of stamps help to bring our children and grandchildren into our hobby, then I say let them stay and hope they print many more too.
@ Cougar;
Not everyone chooses to collect just like you do, in fact, many members on SOR probably don't collect that way either. I don't care for collecting covers, or about postal history either. I do enjoy that others like to, and like reading most of their threads on here. Sometimes I pass on material that I don't collect to those other types of collectors.
I've learned a great deal about Viet Nam from Bobstamp's posts, and a good bit of history from many other members, and thank them for their contributions. I don't care to collect the way that they do, but have sold many of my unneeded items to them. One member (bobstamp) even added one of those items to his website on aviation.
Still sortin'....
TuskenRaider
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re: Stamperija
TuskenRider, it is a scary concept to mass produce colorful topical stamps for kids; stamps that have zero educational or cultural value, and stamps that depict a country in a completely misleading way. By doing that we can only generate future zombies, with a short attention span and unable to think for themselves. Maybe this is the purpose?
Anyways, we all have opinions and I expressed mine, which may be different from yours and so be it.
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Not a problem coogar....
TuskenRaider
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"Maybe this is the purpose?"
panem et circenses.
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
17 Jan 2018
06:52:48am
re: Stamperija
" ... Nie mój cyrk, ... nie maje malpy. ..."
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re: Stamperija
I had not heard of this company before, but what they do is nothing new. In the 1960s and 70s a guy called Finnbar Kenny (or Kenney) created all the Arab Dunes purely for the philatelic market, as well as these truly terrible stamps from Cook Islands, Niue, Aitutaki, Penrhyn etc. from the 1970s. Lots of goldpaint and baroque designs.
Currently IGPC (Inter-Governmental Philatelic Corporation), which despite its name is a private business, is responsible for about half of all stamps produced each year. Its customers are mainly third world countries and in its own words the company "assists its clients in releasing a new breed of postage stamps, which honor pop culture and sport heroes of the day including Elvis Presley, Marilyn Monroe, Pokémon, Popeye, John Lennon, the Walt Disney cartoon characters and classic motion pictures, Jackie Chan, Barbra Streisand, Bob Dylan, Major League Baseball, NFL Superbowl, and the Sylvester Stallone 'Rocky' motion pictures to name just a few."
All very logical and appropriate subjects for countries like Tuvalu, Gambia, Guyana, Liberia, Grenada, St. Vincent, Antigua etc. Just think of a country that issues (American) thematic stamps and 10 to 1 it is an IGPC customer...
As has been pointed out, the company provides a service to both the countries they create stamps for as well as the collectors who are still keen to get Bob Dylan stamps. When the demand is no longer there, IGPC will also cease to be, or will revert to the "boring" business of printing stamps with dead presidents, local scenery and flags :-)
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re: Stamperija
i'm circling around, saying the same thing, but in a different way:
few of us started collecting rates between US and Estonia or wet and dry varieties of the Liberty Series. Most of us started with shiny baubles that caught our eye.
I don't quite understand the difference between USPS, which commemorates mohogany flooring on speed boats, and Kinney, IGPC, or Fujipar. Some of it is intended to move the mail, and some to separate a collector from his funds.
I do think that there are 100s of unnecessary stamps issued each year, but Deutsche Post and USPS are as guilty as any African nation or private label issuer
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re: Stamperija
Look at Marlen stamps with the 2 page ads in the stamp magazines..someone must be buying the Sylvestor Stallone and Marilyn stamps or they could not afford the ads.
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re: Stamperija
"I do think that there are 100s of unnecessary stamps issued each year, but Deutsche Post and USPS are as guilty as any African nation or private label issuer"
My sentiments as well.
And as uncanny as it may seem to some, agency stamps (Stamperija,IGPC, Kenney etc) do get licked and used to pay postage as well (see below image for example from Chad). The fact you don't see genuine used specimens often relates to low print and usage numbers (many being far more difficult to obtain than most of the classical issues).
-k-
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re: Stamperija
Keijo's comment reminded me of the time I bought a dozen or so small dunes collections from one of our club members. Most were a couple of stamps and some FDC covers. Each collection was offered at a quarter, and some, receiving no bids, were added to the following lot, meaning I'd get 3 or 4 small collections for a quarter. One of these, along with the other dunes, was South Arabia, and included two postally used registered covers. Each sold for well over $200.
David
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re: Stamperija
There are a few lines in my story
1) too many stamps printed - I agree, most countries are guilty of that today. Taking Japan for example, between 1871 and 2001 they issued approximately 3,150 stamps (a 130 year span). Then between 2001 and the end of 2012 they issued another 3,150 stamps (in just 11 years) I have to give up on them too.
2) design of stamps - I agree, different people, different ages, different tastes. However what I see with Stamperija is the same designing technique used across their whole spectrum of countries making the latter lose their unique philatelic face, if you wish. I cannot agree with that.
3) what goes on the stamps - It must be us, the collectors influencing the issuing programs as there are so many flora and fauna stamps; enough to cover the walls of the largest house. However I cannot agree that 9 out of 10 people on a stamp issued in an African country have to be white and having nothing to do with the country itself.
SCB, I can read "PHILAT***" in that cancellation above which makes me think the stamp wasn't used on regular mail.
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re: Stamperija
"SCB, I can read "PHILAT***" in that cancellation above which makes me think the stamp wasn't used on regular mail."
True, that's not the usual N-DJAMENA R.P.E1 postmark, but N-DJAMENA PHILATELIE meaning it was posted from the main post office philatelic dept. Whether or not one considers it as 'true' usage is matter of opinion. But if I compare it to Finland or Sweden, where a number of special issues (miniature sheets, stamps with traditional lickable gum etc) are available only at head post offices philatelic or at (online) order only, then how are things different? Many of the modern stamps are never made available to wide public the same way as in the early days simply because there are a number of (cheaper/more efficient) alternative ways to show that postage has been paid.
But let's take another controversy piece of Chad 'wallpaper'.... The problem with this one is that the stamp might be 'illegal'. In late 1999 a number of Millenium sheets (9 stamps per sheet, each sheet with different designs & values) was released under name of Chad. These are mostly found in mint condition, occasional FDC-cancelled copies circle around. A number of African countries have deemed similar issues as illegals on UPU circulars, but Chad hasn't. Scott lists these Millenium stamps, Michel doesn't... So is the postmark bogus as well, or have some of these stamps have actually made their way to Chad? There are no easy answers with modern items as this.
-k-
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re: Stamperija
Scb, I would take the last stamp as a legitimate postally used example. Both the cancellation and the way the stamp was separated from the sheet suggest it is legit.
To have nice even perforations on all sides, the sheet has to be folded along the perforations a couple of times before the separation starts. This is what a collector or someone cautious about the stamp will do (at a philatelic bureau) At a post office a clerk will simply rip a stamp off the sheet.
My guess about the first stamp was that it came from a FDC or similar material originating from a philatelic bureau.
Cancellations are probably not that difficult to fake and with the modern equipment even stamps can easily be forged, I imagine. For this reason I stick with collecting relatively cheap and basic material.
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re: Stamperija
"My guess about the first stamp was that it came from a FDC or similar material originating from a philatelic bureau."
Chad (along few other African countries) has used a double-ring PREMIER JOUR FDC cancellecation somewhat consistently for 40+years, so not from FDC I can say (I've sheen the FDCs for this particular issue as well). The most likely option is that some (western) collector walked to philatelic counter, bought some stamps & mailed a bunch of letters.
"Cancellations are probably not that difficult to fake and with the modern equipment even stamps can easily be forged, I imagine. For this reason I stick with collecting relatively cheap and basic material. "
My sentiments as well. I did pay stunning few cents a piece for above (bought a stockbook filled with modern French speaking Africa - about 99% properly used).
-k-
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re: Stamperija
I know.. everyone is sitting with bated breath waiting with the question, "What does Tom think?" Yea right!
Here's the deal. This is one of those "the more things change, the more they stay the same" things. If you go back in history, you don't have to look any further than our own United States of America for signs of collector gouging. In 1893, we had the Columbian Exposition series, with a total face value of $16.34. The average daily wage ranged from $1.25 to $2.25 that year. So the cost of that set was between 7-13 days labor for the average person!
My very unscientific survey says that from 1900 to 1949, 693 stamps were issued or 14 per year. The next 50 years through 1999 showed 2389 stamps or 48 per year. Then in the past 15 years that my catalog allowed, USPS issued 1615 stamps or 108 a year!
So we don't have to look out to the International Wallpaper Factory for examples of stamps being issued beyond postal requirements. When we had the thread "Who is worthy of a US stamp?" that hit me as gee, Bart Simpson and Beetle Bailey have been on a stamp, I guess anything goes.
And keep in mind that stamps were issued and saved in such vast quantities that virtually any US stamp beyond 1940 is worth face value or less, so it's a recipe for disaster.
Note that the wallpaper factory only exists because somebody is buying the stuff. Figure it's low level collectors from around the world who buy from those big companies that advertise in the Sunday paper magazine section. The value is in the initial sale as profited by the factory and the supposed postal authority, and the stamps will be virtually worthless for resale. If nobody purchased this stuff, obviously the factory would be out of business.
Back when I was in high school, in the dark ages of the 1970s, my friend Carlos told me his father was a big stamp collector with a valuable collection. So I made a point of meeting him. The father was very happy to meet a young stamp collector and took me to his stamp den. He had a wall of shelving with binders, looking very impressive! He opened an album and on quadrille pages he had hand lettered, all the stamps were those CTO sand dune commemorative sets!
He thought this was a serious collection and would be valuable someday. He had a new issue subscription with one of those companies. Lord knows how much this cost him!
So collect what you like and ignore the rest!
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re: Stamperija
"So collect what you like and ignore the rest! "
Amen to that, Tom!
If you like it - for WHATEVER reason - go ahead and collect it!
After all, it's for YOUR enjoyment.
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re: Stamperija
I do agree, collect what you like but......
"As many of you probably know, Stamperija is a stamp issuing agency that has taken over the stamp production for many countries in Africa as we as the Solomon Islands and the Maldives.
Their wall paper issues can be spotted from miles away and are depriving those counties of having an unique philatelic presence. Now all of them look the same. Lots of stamps are printed, lots of high values and all of them, quite uncollectable. You may consider letting Stamperija know what you think of their work.
The reality is if we do not push, nothing will change. Same with the self adhesive stamps that never soak. "
....I am still not sure (having read through the entire thread a few times) if the original poster was talking about Postage stamps ?! Please excuse my 'slowness of uptake' but I just wanted to be sure if the reference was to an Official Stamp Issuing agency, like Crown Agents for example, or to a Company printing stamps for profit which have nothing to do with inscribed nation ?????? There is a big difference of course but I was only curious now as I see some mention of dubious issues.
Regarding the excess of issues nowadays I agree that it has got totally out of hand. Even with the topics/subjects. And there is no one to talk to.
I collected Great Britain until 2009. I stopped because I couldn't afford it anymore and because of their pathetic excuses for issuing 'security Machins'! A short time after, I stopped collecting all Postage stamps.
Next week, Royal Mail will have a new Commemorative called Game of Thrones. When I first read about this last week I googled 'Game of Thrones' because I had never heard of it. It was the first GB issue EVER that I have known nothing about. I was shocked about what I saw and even more shocked that RM could even think about commemorating such junk.
But yes I agree, collect what you want !!
Londonbus1
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re: Stamperija
I cannot help thinking if all the talk about the 'badness' of pop-culture on stamps is more a result of 'traditional collectors' refusing to accept the changing world than general public truly feeling bad that the stamps of today are mostly pretty flowers, pretty animals and pop-culture.
I mean, if you go to street and ask random folks do they know William Blake or Kwame Nkrumah, then most will not know. But if you ask do they know Game of Thrones or Kim Kardashian, then most will recognize the names easily - some may even tell how much they love them. Bringing pop-culture to stamps is not just clever marketing, I would say it is pretty much also what the general audience (with exception of some collectors) truly wants.
The times they are a changing (and as such very few folks besides us 'oldies' know songs of Bob Dylan anymore).
-k-
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re: Stamperija
"The times they are a changing......so let's degrade ourselves with the times"
I will send that to Royal Mail to go on their next circular !!
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Micheal, I believe you missed Keijo's point. IF we want new collectors in the field, we best appeal to them. The number of people already reading Booker Prize-winning authors is pretty low, so if we start with that as the universe we plumb, our small-n success sample will fit in the hold of the Santa Maria.
Erudition comes later, after they've read enough of our posts that our brilliance is ingested.
Until then aim for Spitfires and Typhoons and Pretty Ponies and Jaba the Hutt
David
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10:51:49pm
re: Stamperija
How does one pronounce "stameperija" in English? Just curious. Hard J? Soft J? I see it and it annoys me not to know what to say.
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re: Stamperija
I understand Keijo's point perfectly but there has to be a limit, surely. If not then we are doomed.
I am not against modern topics on stamps if that's what is wanted by the public.......of any country, from any country. But is there a line?
Which brings me back to a question I asked in an earlier post about the stamps produced by Stamperija. Are they legitimate stamps ? Are they available in the Post Offices of the countries inscribed upon them ? If so then that's fine but it would be interesting to know what the people of those Nations think, don't you agree.
So back to the 'modern' topics and specifically to the one I mentioned in my post yesterday. I should first of all apologize for being 'old' and have no clue about what is, or what is not, on TV because I don't watch it !
Is it OK for the other 'oldies' to experience this scenario......for example:
(Tongue-in-Cheek please).
Larry Duck was sitting quietly at his desk studying his Key-Plate Bermuda Stamps of KGV.
Suddenly the door flies open! It was his 9-year old Son, Donald.
"Dad, my new issue order has arrived from Royal Mail but I didn't know what the stamps were about so I googled them on Mum's computer. I got lots of pictures of naked ladies doing things with naked men and lots of blood and guts"
Larry was too engrossed in his Key-Plates,
"Really Son. Good"
"But Dad, is this really what the stamps are about? Huey and Dewey from next door came to visit and they want to know"
Larry was oblivious to everything during his quiet stamp time,
"Yes Son. Probably"
"But Dad....."
"Not now Son" Larry interrupted.
"So is it OK if I buy some stamps I found in the market showing Madonna and Kylie Minogue with no clothes on ? I think they were from Africa somewhere"
"Yes Son, OK"
"Gee, thanks Dad".
Londonbus1......waiting for the next gruesome topic on stamps ! Executions maybe? (I believe they have been popular in recent years).
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re: Stamperija
Hi Everyone;
I'm going to have to stop reading this silly thread. It is making me laugh so hard my ribs are sore!
It is amazing how many older collectors just can't get their heads around the idea that not everyone collects the same material as them, or collects it in the same manner, or collect at all for the same reasons.
Some collect to learn postal history, others to learn about topics like butterflies, birds or whatever. Some collect to various war themes, so again history. There are as many reasons to collect as there are stars in the Milky Way, including lots of interesting space and astronomy themed stamps.
In the time it has taken me to read this jibber-jabber, I could have mounted over 200 classic US stamps.
So just keep on sortin' those jam jar labels....
TuskenRaider
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re: Stamperija
There's nothing silly about this thread. Confusing maybe but not silly. Bit harsh, so maybe it's best you stick with US Classics !!
Anyone going to chip in and tell me/us about the stamps of Stamperija? I get conflicting online reports and comments (not that there are that many).
thanks.
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I guess I missed YOUR point, Michael.
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re: Stamperija
The more things change…
A few years ago I read a US newspaper article from 1869 which was highly critical of the new pictorial stamps being issued. It mentioned that the general public hated them and felt the post office was simply issuing stamps for the sake of issuing stamps and generating income.
Yet now these stamps are highly sought after and prized by collectors. Ditto for the Columbian issued a few years later 1893. The post office came under a lot of criticism for excessive issuing of stamps that were not really wanted or needed; and they sold very poorly.
Odd how history repeats itself...
Don
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re: Stamperija
"The stamps of Stamperija are legitimate stamps but not usually available in-country."
But I can still buy them from Stamperija, like you did, and use them in that particular country ? Can I use all of those inscribed (Say Republique du Mali) in that country ? I am trying to work out for myself (because I find the topic very interesting) if there are Bogus issues involved as I saw these mentioned in an earlier post in the same sentence as 'sand Dunes' which were mostly bogus including the covers.
How are those nations making money ? Stamperija need to sell them to the Governments AND make a profit. It all seems rather strange and more than a little 'fishy' to me, but is worth a bit more research. I am checking the UPU regulations but it's a massive task !!
Thanks to Anglophile for answering my query.
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re: Stamperija
It sounds somewhat similar to the Seebeck issues for various Latin American countries in the 1890s.
In that case (to quote Wikipedia):
"Seebeck sold his New York stamp business in 1884 and used the money to buy into the Hamilton Bank Note Engraving and Printing Co.
In 1889, Seebeck developed a novel plan for Hamilton to print stamps for foreign countries.
He offered to supply the stamps for free, provided that:
1. The stamps would be dated and invalidated at the end of each year, to be replaced by a new series.
2. Unsold (invalid) stamps would be returned to Seebeck for sale to collectors.
3. Seebeck retained the right to reprint any invalid stamps as needed for sale to collectors."
Again this was a win/win for the printer and the countries concerned but it badly affected the reputation of these countries' stamps amongst collectors for many years.
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re: Stamperija
"Yet now these stamps are highly sought after and prized by collectors. Ditto for the Columbian issued a few years later 1893. The post office came under a lot of criticism for excessive issuing of stamps that were not really wanted or needed; and they sold very poorly.
Odd how history repeats itself..."
Yep. In general everything that is deemed as 'pariah' by one generation of collectors, will sooner or later be re-established/re-valued by later generations. For example 'sand dunes' are now in middle of that process IMHO.
"I am trying to work out for myself (because I find the topic very interesting) if there are Bogus issues involved as I saw these mentioned in an earlier post in the same sentence as 'sand Dunes' which were mostly bogus including the covers."
AFAIK Stamperija stamps should be all legit and with valid contracts.
Where all the contradiction and confusion arises is the fact that some of the names/persons associated to origins of Stamperija may got a 'more colorful' past involving a bit of this and that with 'stamp-like label' production. But people/business can change their ways over time...
-k-
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re: Stamperija
Hi Everyone;
londonbus1 said:
"There's nothing silly about this thread. Confusing maybe but not silly. Bit harsh, so maybe it's best you stick with US Classics !!"
@ (cougar) & (londonbus1)
To take this much time to badmouth stamps just because they do not meet your collecting fetish is VERY silly.
What is harsh are your opinions on these stamps, and how they may affect prospective new collectors!
There are many good reasons for some collectors to enjoy collecting these stamps.
(amsd) could not have said it better:
amsd said;
"Wallpaper is ONE way that kids can get interested. Resale value is nonexistent, but that's true in virtually any stamp we buy UNTIL we're experienced collectors and are buying, with an educated pallette, as investment."
amsd said;
"few of us started collecting rates between US and Estonia or wet and dry varieties of the Liberty Series. Most of us started with shiny baubles that caught our eye."
amsd said;
"Micheal, I believe you missed Keijo's point. IF we want new collectors in the field, we best appeal to them."
@ (cougar) & (londonbus1)
If prospective new collectors and possible new SOR members read your harsh opinions of these stamps they may not join SOR at all. If they do join, they would be very unlikely to post images to show off their collections, or not post at all on here, for fear of further harsh remarks about their collecting choices!
Cougar said;
"TuskenRider, it is a scary concept to mass produce colorful topical stamps for kids; stamps that have zero educational or cultural value, and stamps that depict a country in a completely misleading way. By doing that we can only generate future zombies, with a short attention span and unable to think for themselves. Maybe this is the purpose?"
In what universe is it required that hobbies are supposed to teach us anything? Hobbies are for fun, and enjoyment, nothing else. If you need it to be a learning experience for your own enjoyment, that is fine. Don't try to push your ideology onto other collectors. That will only discourage them, especially the younger ones.
Anglophile said;
"I don't think anything would be accomplished by sending critical messages to Stamperija. They have willing customer countries and those countries have willing buyers. If you don't like this product, don't buy the stamps. The power of the purse is often greater than the pen."
So if there are stamps that you detest that much, then just don't buy them, and we can all solve this silly rant, and go back to what we all enjoy....just collecting stamps.
Still just sortin'....
TuskenRaider
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re: Stamperija
The fact that we do not, or would not, collect stamps we don't like doesn't mean we cannot engage in sensible discussion about them. The Stamperija phenomenon is a debate the major catalogue compilers must have among themselves (hence the large amount of material that doesn't get into Gibbons and doubtless Scott), so if we can shed light or move it forward, we should be doing so.
I agree that restatement of firmly-held positions can become tedious, but that is no excuse for further and increasingly angry restatement of positions.
I'm not offering opinions on this one - I think I've made it clear in the past that for my "World War Two" commemorative albums there are many Stamperija-type issues which I avoid. There is a good example of this on another thread ("Violence on stamps") where one particularly graphic image emanates from an issuing entity which has no warrant to publish such material: it didn't partake in WW2. I find that discomforting, but ultimately it is irrelevant to my collecting.
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re: Stamperija
I get the impression that there are at least two questions hiding behind the heading:
One is about the postal validity of these stamps. This seems the easy one: as long as the postal authority in the country in whose name the stamps were printed says so, they are valid, and hence should be listed in a catalog of postage stamps. How, should perhaps be discussed elsewhere (I'd love to see definitives and commemoratives/pictorial listed separately, others have told me they don't think so).
The other is about the perceived value to collectors, and the "worthiness" of these stamps to be included in a collection. That's a tricky one, but in general I'd say, live and let live. The flood of new issues makes a complete collection, even of a single country, nearly impossible anyway, even without stamps issued by agencies. Likewise, it will hardly be possible to gather all stamps with a specific topic. So, let's forget about completeness and collect what we like. After all, collecting is not so much about monetary value. It's about having fun first and foremost.
Also let's keep in mind that the pop culture stamps are not issued with country collectors in mind. They are meant to appeal to fans of the specific movies, music groups, actors, authors, whatever. The sad bit is that many people apparently have not realised that they can easily spoil the fun by thinking about value, and the agencies from Seebeck to Stamperija and even some postal administrations are banking upon that. Also, there can be too much of a good thing - even if I were interested in, say, stamps celebrating the Harry Potter series, I would not need them from every imaginable country in the world.
A historical footnote: the Michel catalog had a special sign for "issues detrimental to philately" in the late 1950s. They gave up on using it later. These days, we could perhaps use a sign for "issues in accordance with postal needs" - there would not be too many of these ;-)
Martin
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04:07:44am
re: Stamperija
I think you make some good points, Martin. I love the music of Johnny Cash and the US sheet that came out a short while back commemorating him was one that I needed to have. I also wanted the eclipse set that came out in 2017 as I have a strong interest in that area and was intrigued by the "thermal printing" of those stamps. These are the only stamps that I've ever ordered from abroad. I probably wouldn't order stamps of Johnny Cash from "Stamperija" countries but I could understand why dedicated fans of music memorabilia would.
The Emu
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re: Stamperija
"These days, we could perhaps use a sign for "issues in accordance with postal needs" - there would not be too many of these ;-)"
Martin, I consider the definite issues to be always or mostly in accordance with postal needs.
What I wanted to emphasize is the lack of educational value in the Stamperija issues as a result of the misleading information a basic collector may get.
Ideally you get a stamp with a lion from Kenya and you admire it and you think about the lions living in this country. How do you feel about getting a stamp with a polar bear from Kenya? Is it the same as a stamp with a polar bear from Norway or Canada?
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re: Stamperija
Of course, definitives are mostly all right, not counting perhaps the Seebecks and some issues of modern stamps in special formats (such as sheets printed in low numbers or only sold on stamp shows, you get the idea).
As for the educational value or the lack thereof, it ties in with what I meant with not needing all stamps of a certain topic. I guess that even most children will realize that, say, a landlocked country and penguins don't really fit together (unless they've got them in a zoo). On the other hand, some people might just find such stamp issues endearingly quaint.
The only real problem that I see is when somebody advertises these issues (that IMHO just tell us about the lack of imagination of the people in the agencies) as "must-haves" and asks high prices for them. I hold that everybody should decide for themselves, and that such decisions should best be backed by knowledge. We do not have to buy these agency issues, do we?
Martin
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re: Stamperija
"One is about the postal validity of these stamps. This seems the easy one: as long as the postal authority in the country in whose name the stamps were printed says so, they are valid, and hence should be listed in a catalog of postage stamps. "
I don't know about today's wallpaper, but my foggy memory reminds me of the sand dune issues back in the 1970s. I remember someone saying they were in one of the issuing countries and being told the stamps they had were not valid. It's pretty evident that these stamps go straight from the printer to the distributor, never even having been in the country that supposedly issued them. Collectors don't have any contact in the issuing countries, so they're taking the word of the printer and distributors that these are indeed stamps.
I remember some of the sand dunes weren't even countries, they were states or regions that wouldn't issue stamps anyway.
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Auctions
re: Stamperija
I think (I hope) we've pretty much exhausted this thread.
I wanted to point out that not being a country doesn't mean a stamp (or label if you prefer) isn't perfectly collectible.
I'll happily trade you some honest to goodness made in the USA stamps for some Czech Legion or LVF. Neither represented a country, although both were specific to members of a particular region (Czechoslovakia wouldn't exist for another year). I wouldn't mind some postally used stamps from Kosovo or Abkhazia. you get my point.
David
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
25 Jan 2018
07:28:47pm
re: Stamperija
" .... If prospective new collectors and possible new SOR members
read your harsh opinions of these stamps they may not join SOR at all.
If they do join, they would be very unlikely to post images
to show off their collections, or not post at all on here,
for fear of further harsh remarks about their collecting choices! ...."
I certainly agree about avoiding an ill-chosen harsh remark
about what anyone collects. That is unacceptable
in a club such as this, one that prides itself in being
a welcoming, friendly on-line philatelic group.
However, we also need to be honest with new members,
especially about the complicated subject of value,
something that so many members spend so much time and effort.
collecting, calculating, collating as well as undoubtedly
dreaming about.
I have been present so many times when some unaware accumulator
discovers that the true value of their collection is,
somewhere between minimal and non-existant.
I've seen that dissapointment register on, up till then,
a happy face. In fact, over the years it has fallen on me
as a long term stamper to deliver the coup de grâce
to the dreams that ofter populate our musings.
It saddens me when someone who is so proud of his accumulation
of pretty wallpaper and jam jar labels suddenly
begine to comprehend that my answer anout worth, value,
or selling price can barely cover an afternoon' snack
at the local Micky D's.
I have seen that transformation more than once
via a harsh dismissal by less considerate informmant,
and have also tried to cushion the fall mysel.
An empathy cushion, I often explained to sakesmen I was training
is a delicate explanation reminding the listener of the benefits
and pleasure he or she obtained from the hobby and other positive
aspects allowing as graceful exit as possible and if done properly
provides the inquirer dignity.
Offering a harsh answer from people who have unresolved
social issues of their own, and eliminate the possibiity
of building a friendship with what is left.
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