What we collect!
Stamporama Discussion Board Logo
For People Who Love To Talk About Stamps


65 visitors online

Sales, Swaps, Auction & Approvals/Approvals Disc. : Approval Books...there are Books :) and there are Books :(

AuthorPostings
rrraphy
Members Picture
Retired Ap. Book Mod. Retired Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Retired consultant
24 Nov 2017
02:21:00pm
Approval Books...there are Books Applause Applause Applause and there are Books At Wits End At Wits End At Wits End

I am writing here strictly as a buyer.
I must commend some of the approval Book sellers for going the extra mile, with information that makes navigating your books a real pleasure. This includes indexing, cat numbers (no matter what the catalog...it helps!), year of issue, etc..
More importantly organizing the book is some orderly fashion, grouping the duplicates together, and quite frankly making shopping your books a real pleasure! Thank you thank you thank you! I for one will pay a little more for material such great books!
You know who you are! Thank you thank you thank you! Big Grin

On the other hand, some sellers are truly insulting the buyer. I do occasionally fall into the trap of buying a few stamps, because I just ran into something I need..and because when I was moderating the approval Books I had to check on the books for meeting our rules....but most often than not I abandon my search, and wow never to buy again from them.
What do I find insulting as a buyer from such books: Book titles that say nothing, stamps thrown haphazardly in total disarray on the pages, duplicates spread all over the place, stamps placed upside down, pricing that could be seen to reflect an attempt to gouge the unsuspecting buyer (or are just thrown out there in disconnect to value), defective stamps, pages that visually look like "sh...t", pages of just extremely common stamps, etc..etc... (I am trying to control myself, but really!!!!)
It is just lazy! I wish you would take pride into what you sell, and treat fellow collectors with some respect. I think you know who you are as well. SadIf you only want to dump your unsold duplicates here and make no effort to deal respectfully with fellow collectors, I resent it! I Don't Want To See

Now I know that it takes time..lots of time.. to organize a book, and as a seller, I can testify that no one sells here to make a profit, so why not just spend just a little extra time to make your books something you can look back at with pride? Quite frankly I am in favor of tightening our standards, since some people just don't get it!

We set up Approval books to encourage everyone to sell their duplicates, and to have few rules to discourage potential sellers. But this is not an issue, as hundreds of books get added every month. Approval Books are quite successful and this platform remains unique and original.

As we approach year 4, I think it is time to change the guiding philosophy that existed when Approval Books were just introduced! I say it is time to weed out the "crap" and require a minimum quality standard. It does not take so much extra time to organize a book that shows some respect to the collector buyer. We are a collector club, not a dumping ground for defective bottom scraping left over material! Often a book I just hate could be one I love, if the seller put just a little extra effort.

As Tim and the MT organize what Books get retired when, I would say that it is time to also weed out the junk and require a minimum standard for posting Approval Books here.

rrr... as a frustrated buyer!



Like 
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.

"C. Hitchens — 'That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.'"
StampCollector
Members Picture
24 Nov 2017
03:02:58pm
re: Approval Books...there are Books :) and there are Books :(

Several years back I was in a stamp trading club, I believe that it was even before the net, with not many rules but the very few rules we had were very effective, the one I remember the most was no minimum value stamps, and naturally no damaged stamps. Something I see continuously in the approval section here in stamporama are damaged stamps, I can excuse a bent, a crease and even a thin here and there but stamps with missing corners and sometimes outright chunks that they do hurt my eyes, well there's no excuse for that, and that's the signal for me to move on to another book and to make matters worse it is a minimum CV stamp which we all know actually is near worthless, priced at 15 or even 20 cents. Most of the sales in the approval section take place within the first few days of the book being publish, leaving the book on the site for months and months doesn't make any sense to me, even one month seems too generous to me but then again that's my opinion, when it comes to time on approval books we'll have to agree to disagree.

Tony

Like
Login to Like
this post

www.webstore.com/~stampcollector1
rrraphy
Members Picture
Retired Ap. Book Mod. Retired Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Retired consultant
24 Nov 2017
03:54:42pm
re: Approval Books...there are Books :) and there are Books :(

One way we may be able to weed out "bad" books, and encourage "good" books is to set up a buyer/seller feedback system, and let the marketplace play!

How about if one could rate an Approval Book as Thumbs Up, Confused, Thumbs Down
I suspect this could easily be software implemented, adding the rating numbers on the cover page of a book, so that a buyer would immediately see what others think about it, and the seller would also be aware of what others think to potentially remedy it.
One vote per person, anonymous, and showing up how many feel positive, neutral or negative.

Just a thought, but I bet you we could use the market to regulate quality, without requiring more work from the moderator.

rrr...

Like 
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.

"C. Hitchens — 'That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.'"
Brechinite
Members Picture
Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons
24 Nov 2017
06:35:12pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: Approval Books...there are Books :) and there are Books :(

Rating system for Approval Books?

Nay! Nay! and thrice Nay!

The reasons being the same as why we do not have a dislike button on posts.

An individuals perception is entirely different to another individuals perception,
therefore it would be subjective NOT objective.

If you want to leave it to the "market" that's fine. That is what happens NOW! (going by the various reasons for not buying from some sellers given by numerous members)

All hail to the "market".





Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.

"One persons idea of improvement may be detrimental to others...........Some are more equal than others. (Always to be avoided)"
StampCollector
Members Picture
24 Nov 2017
06:55:33pm
re: Approval Books...there are Books :) and there are Books :(

I don't think that a rating system for books is the answer but a feedback system seems necessary, after all every site that's a market place and stamporama has become one, has one, it will give us and idea of who we are buying from or selling to.

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.

www.webstore.com/~stampcollector1
meostamps
Members Picture
24 Nov 2017
07:01:38pm
re: Approval Books...there are Books :) and there are Books :(

Ralph, As far as a rating system is concerned, I am FULLY with Ian on letting the market decide without any other rating showing. The Wisdom of the Crowd will support the sellers who take the additional time to present and price their offerings versus those who do not.

When I sort thru material to put in a book, I will 'peek' at a catalog to just get some idea of value for some items. 90%+ I can usually guess at or come close. The other tool I make good use of is my waste basket. I recently did 2 book on Machins with about 250 items total in them. While sorting to pick these out, probably 50-75 others hit the round file because of faults that I felt made them valueless. Just the way I operate.

Mike / meostamps

Like 
4 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.

www.hipstamp.com/store/meostamps
Brechinite
Members Picture
Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons
24 Nov 2017
07:08:25pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: Approval Books...there are Books :) and there are Books :(

Feedback System?

Again.....Nay!.....Nay!.....and thrice Nay!

We all know the problems that ebay's feedback system creates.

All a member has to do on stamporama is click on the sellers name scroll down and see how many items a member has sold and that should give them an idea whether a member is a good "seller" or not.

And the most important point of all, Tim does not need any more work, thank you.

Like 
3 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.

"One persons idea of improvement may be detrimental to others...........Some are more equal than others. (Always to be avoided)"
Dakota
Members Picture
24 Nov 2017
08:48:03pm

Auctions
re: Approval Books...there are Books :) and there are Books :(

I will have to say that I am in agreement with Ian.

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.

www.hipstamp.com/store/dakota-stamps
vinman
Members Picture
24 Nov 2017
08:58:36pm
re: Approval Books...there are Books :) and there are Books :(

I have to agree with Ian

Quote:

"If you want to leave it to the "market" that's fine. That is what happens NOW! (going by the various reasons for not buying from some sellers given by numerous members)"


I know what sellers have books that I feel like looking through. There are seller's books that I won't look at because they are difficult to follow. If a seller is selling he/she can be sure they are doing something right. If they are not selling they might figure out that they might try a different approach to putting their books together.

Vince

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.

"The best in Big Band and Swing Music WRDV.org"

wrdv.org/
jbaxter5256
Members Picture
24 Nov 2017
09:40:28pm
re: Approval Books...there are Books :) and there are Books :(

As a relatively new member and new buyer on auctions and approvals I really appreciate where posters list the year of issue as well as country and catalog number and on more expensive issues some idea of catalog values (really useful in that I don't have catalog coverage for stamps after 1940) and have been expanding into 1940-1963 issues in a set of International albums. Don't exclude the low value stamps whenever possible as in most cases I find them the hardest to locate through local stamp shops (recently I found some that seemed to care about the general collector where previously I had not had access to any for a couple of decades), stamps shows, and eBay offers which I have used as my only sources since the early 1990s!

I, also, appreciate the flexibility many sellers have offered in terms of combining shipments from multiple dates to reduce postage costs.

Like
Login to Like
this post
sheepshanks
Members Picture
24 Nov 2017
09:44:12pm
re: Approval Books...there are Books :) and there are Books :(

When I do put a book up (not often)I try to include all the stamps that I have for the country concerned, where I do not collect and all duplicates for those I do collect.
In doing so I remove all badly damaged stamps and those with really heavy obliterating cancels. If there is minor perf damage on an older (say pre 1920)stamp then it will stay in but damage noted.
An heavy crease will not make it but minor ones will on stamps over minimum catalogue value.
Including all the stamps per country means that a lot of common ones will be there but then how many of us are looking for low value items without success.
Scans are normally at 300dpi and later reduced to 900 pixels after using fototagger to enumerate each stamp.
I think most of us have a lot of common stamps but there are also a lot of collectors who will at some point need even these common offerings, if only to better the condition.
Maybe when books are reduced or full of common stamps they could be purchased and given to junior collectors or school stamp clubs etc.
No feedback but possibly a polite email from the mod pointing out how the book could have been better presented. I personally would appreciate someone letting me know of problems with my books, pages too crowded, scans bad, etc.
Vic

Like
Login to Like
this post
rrraphy
Members Picture
Retired Ap. Book Mod. Retired Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Retired consultant
24 Nov 2017
11:02:34pm
re: Approval Books...there are Books :) and there are Books :(

I knew that Ian would immediately object.
I would have bet you my rarest stamp, that it would be immediate.

On the other hand I see no issue with rating...with all its limitations, it does provide information of value, to seller and buyer alike. And we have no feedback system.
Alternatively to a public rating system which seems to terrorize some (none here in the conversation included), what if the rating ONLY went to the seller and the Management Team. It could come from anyone who has viewed the book, and not just from buyers? Would this satisfy my nemesis?

The excuse that people have different perceptions is true and this is exactly what the market does..reflect the various positions.
I like providing feedback, if someone listens. But many don't..and I can tell you from serving as moderator! On the other hand, many do respond very favorably to feedback.

Maybe this will get a positive impact on the quality of the books...which is my goal. Quality is not just what stamps are being sold, but how the books present the material for ease of exploration by the buyer.

rrr...

Like
Login to Like
this post

"C. Hitchens — 'That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.'"
scb
Members Picture
Collecting the world 1840 to date - one stamp at a time!
25 Nov 2017
02:42:49am
re: Approval Books...there are Books :) and there are Books :(

I must say I agree with rrraphy. I haven't bought anything from approvals in long time because of quality issues that were consistent, and likely never will unless major changes are not done. A random damaged stamp is fine (all of us make random mistakes), but 10-30% faulty goods is too salty. And I'm explicitly talking about faults such as thins, creases etc. that every collector is capable of identifying.

As for feedback systems... I'm fully in favor of it. I have nothing but good experiences from them, even personally. Some may know that since 2010 I have run a somewhat well doing stamp exchange program on my website. When I launched it about 25- 30% of incoming stamps had faults. Needless to say it was not what I desired, and at first I increased the education (and nagging) on what is ok, what is not. It had some affect but not enough. Ultimately I opted for public rating (=how many faulty items) for each lot. This year the ratio of faulty goods is less than 4% .... I don't know if it is the 'name&shame' aspect that works, or the fact that people can see and compare how they are doing. But feedback/rating systems do work - especially when they are based on specific criterias and not personal opinions.

I might even favor some kind of sanctions (such as 'time out' from selling on approvals) if the feedback/rating for some seller was consistently low. And yes, I know this might sound pretty harsh, even judgmental approach. It is (and should be) all about protecting the common good. If there were not issues with current approach, then this talk and bringing up options such as would never have true need.

Just my 5 cents worth

-k-

Like 
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.

https://www.stampcollectingblog.com
Brechinite
Members Picture
Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons
25 Nov 2017
03:55:50am

Auctions - Approvals
re: Approval Books...there are Books :) and there are Books :(

rrraphy:-

Thank You.....Thank You....Thank You.

When you started this thread I cheered.

Why?

I won the bet!!!

I said that you would bring this subject up around Thanksgiving, the other person said it would be nearer Christmas.

Yippee!!!!!


Blessed is the "market".

Like
Login to Like
this post

"One persons idea of improvement may be detrimental to others...........Some are more equal than others. (Always to be avoided)"
Brechinite
Members Picture
Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons
25 Nov 2017
11:53:20am

Auctions - Approvals
re: Approval Books...there are Books :) and there are Books :(

In all seriousness, there are books and there are ?books.

No matter what you try you will probably always have members that will never meet your expectations.

Why?......because the system was designed for members to sell off their duplicates. Lets be honest most of our duplicates are the more common stamps that we have sitting in boxes in their thousands.

At the moment the system can allow 48 stamps per page and 20+ pages that could be a maximum of almost 1000 stamps. A crazy number and thankfully seldom done.

Some members will not even look at a book if 25%+ has been sold, and I for one can see the reasons why.

Books can be listed for one year, an inordinate length of time when most books are not even looked at after a couple of weeks/months.

Instead of coming up with fanciful ideas like feedbacks, ratings and reviews etc etc (ad infinitum). Which of course means more work for the webmaster, (surely we can let him have time to work on his own stamp collection instead of faffing about on our behalf).

What we could do, as many British Societies do is put a MINIMUM VALUE on a book.
The Standard British "club book" has 10 pages. You can fit around 100 GB commemorative stamps in one.

My proposal is that there should be a maximum of 12 pages, a maximum of 15 items to a page and a total minimum selling value of $10 in a book. The book only listed for three months.

This may help those that do not want to trawl through hundreds and hundreds of stamps and encourage others to add higher priced stamps. It may also help improve the images that some sellers enter. It would also prevent vast amounts of out of date data being held in the system.


Praise be to the "market"

Like 
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.

"One persons idea of improvement may be detrimental to others...........Some are more equal than others. (Always to be avoided)"
roy
Members Picture
BuckaCover.com - 8,000+ new covers coming November 7
25 Nov 2017
11:55:53am
re: Approval Books...there are Books :) and there are Books :(

I am really torn on this one.

I am very much a "free market" kind of person. Successful selling (= happy purchasers) requires a level of competence. If that competence is lacking, no amount of regulation can create it. I am a proponent of the imposition of limits on listings by sellers until a level of competence is shown by successful selling activity, at which time the seller is rewarded with enhanced listing quota. But that requires the market to recognize the incompetent sellers, and reject purchasing from them.

Then I explore the Approvals, and the first things I see are these:

Image Not Found
and this book sold 26% of the items in 2 days


And then this:
Image Not Found
This book sold 38% in 4 days.


These are two examples of what I would call "incompetent sellers". It does not matter whether it is a result of willful neglect of quality, or unknowing neglect. I equate the two, because a buyer doesn't, and shouldn't need to, care which.

If you see this in a book, what can you expect of the stamps that are apparently sound? I guarantee the offering will be full of hidden thins, creases and every other fault one can imagine.

"The market", should have punished these sellers for their incompetence. Sales should have been zero, not 26% and 38% respectively. I can only put it down to "wishful thinking" that the other items would not show the 30% faulty rate that was described earlier in this thread -- like I say "wishful thinking".

I don't have an answer. However, I am not about to join in asking Tim to undertake a public rating or feedback system. That is an enormous amount of work for someone who is already overworked, regardless of the other pros/cons that might exist.

One possibility, that I think could be implemented relatively easily, because the model already exists on the auctions, is a link to send a message directly to the seller.
a) I stopped looking at your book because: (fill in the blank box)
b) I love your book, keep it up!
c) (fill in the box)

Of course, this is also subject to abuse -- abusive language, abusive thoughts.

This does not complete my thoughts on the issue, so please don't berate me for being incomplete on the ideas. This post is already long enough.

Bottom line is, the "market" (the buyers) have to start rejecting the incompetent sellers, and quit with the "wishful thinking".

Alternatively, we go "Big Brother" and the Approval Moderator sends messages like:
"Your book is being rejected because of the incidence of obviously damaged material. On seeing such lack of care, buyers can expect a large percentage of stamps to have hidden damage. Stamps of this quality are not acceptable in the Approvals".

Roy

Like 
4 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.

"BuckaCover.com - 8,000+ new covers coming November 7"

www.Buckacover.com
rrraphy
Members Picture
Retired Ap. Book Mod. Retired Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Retired consultant
25 Nov 2017
01:53:39pm
re: Approval Books...there are Books :) and there are Books :(

Agree that Tim does not need more work.
Agree that the market should prevail...but even Market based economists ( and I should know, having studied with them) agree that The market is NOT perfect, and one can profit from its imperfections.
But as we automate many monitoring and moderating functions by software enhancements, this is all very time consuming for the Moderator, and needs some approach other than wishful thinking.

I like the idea of Roy

Quote:

"One possibility, that I think could be implemented relatively easily, because the model already exists on the auctions, is a link to send a message directly to the seller.
a) I stopped looking at your book because: (fill in the blank box)
b) I love your book, keep it up!
c) (fill in the box)"



My rating system Thumbs Up Thumbs Down is nothing but an anonymous way of providing feedback.

Everyone seems worried about public rating systems, and yet they work...even if you disparage ebay, Hipstamps and others who use them. They are NOT perfect, but they saved me from making mistakes several times!

Anyway, no matter how we do it, this is something to consider as Approval is no longer a start up project, and quality is an issue.

Now you may ask...what set me off?
Well here it is...

Image Not Found

From a collector's point of view, would you tolerate this? And yet, other than asking the moderator to monitor and look page by page at every book issued, and god know he/she has other things to do...how would you police this?

rrr...

Like
Login to Like
this post

"C. Hitchens — 'That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.'"
Brechinite
Members Picture
Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons
25 Nov 2017
02:11:40pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: Approval Books...there are Books :) and there are Books :(

Unfortunately rrraphy the owner of this book is not breaking any of the Approval Book Rules and Guidelines. There is no mention whatsoever of the quality of stamps to be included.


Quote:

"Approvals Rules and Guidelines

Things to keep in mind when building your Approval Books
The following rules and guidelines will help you in building your Approval Books:

Approval Books shall offer a substantial selection of items suitable for its category. Books with less than 100 stamps or less than 20 covers/sets, s/s, are not considered to offer a substantial selection and should not be posted. You may wish to combine smaller books into one larger book to meet the minimum item requirement. This minimum requirement is also subject to Moderator review. The Moderator may grant an exception for covers, s/s, sets, and countries/topics where a limited stamp selection may make the minimum item requirement unreasonable. You should contact the Moderator first for any exception, or your book may be removed.

Every item should be individually numbered. Each number shall clearly and distinctly be associated with one, and only one, stamp or item, and shall be placed adjacent to that stamp or item.

Each item on a page will be priced identically.

It is recommended that multiple copies of a stamp or item be limited to 3 unless necessity dictates otherwise (different cancellations, shades, etc.).

The books are to be organized by collectible categories, for the benefit of the buyers. Titles of the books should be specific and should fully describe the contents of the books.

The books are expected to be made available as a resource until such time as they are substantially depleted. "



A first step to improvement would actually be to remedy the rule situation. There is no Approval Rules listed under Approvals on the Home Page!!!! However they are under the Help section of the Approval tool bar.

You cannot have some rules in one section and other rules somewhere else it just confuses the members new and old.

Also under the Approvals section it lists the Moderators etc for the AUCTIONS not APPROVALS.

You may think I am being pedantic but Rules should be clear, concise, easily understood and most importantly easily accessed.

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.

"One persons idea of improvement may be detrimental to others...........Some are more equal than others. (Always to be avoided)"
Brechinite
Members Picture
Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons
25 Nov 2017
02:21:25pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: Approval Books...there are Books :) and there are Books :(

Here is the Activation Page for an Approval Book.

Quote:

"Activation Questions
#1 All items (stamps, sets, S/S, FDC, etc...) are clearly visible as scanned and numbered from 1 to n on each page?
NOTE: Please make sure that you indicate clearly any known defects. Please scan at a high enough resolution to clearly show the listed material.

Yes No

#2 Each item (stamps, sets, S/S, FDC, etc...) has its own individual number, clearly associated with it?
NOTE: No numbering by rows; no hidden numbers. Please make an effort to structure your books in an organized fashion.

Yes No


#3 The book offers a SUBSTANTIAL selection with a MINIMUM of 100 items (mix of stamps, sets, S/S, FDC, etc.) in the chosen collectible area and no more than 3 copies of any individual item?
NOTE: The Moderator may grant an exception for some books (offering a combination of stamps, sets, S/S, covers, etc.), and for countries or topics where a limited stamp selection may make the minimum item requirement difficult to achieve. Exceptions to the "3 Copies Rule" can also be claimed for cancellation varieties, if notated. To get an exception for your book, you must contact the Moderator to obtain a waiver before you publish your book. Books consisting exclusively of covers, sheets, S/S, complete sets, etc., must meet a minimum of 24 items, and are subject to Moderator review.

Yes No
#4 The book offers stamps in WELL DEFINED, collectible topics that are clearly described in its TITLE and listed in the corresponding Approval Books Category?
NOTE: Please do NOT compile books with unrelated material, "floor sweepings", and do NOT combine unrelated countries or topics, etc.. Your book must fit one of our categories. Make sure the title contains enough information, such as year range, catalog number range, condition, topical subject, etc. to define precisely its content.

Yes No
If your answer to all these questions is YES, then you may publish your book.

If you are unsure of an answer, you may message the Approval Books Moderator for an opinion.

If the Moderator determines that your published book is not in compliance with these simple rules, your book may be deactivated until it is edited appropriately, or you submit a request for a waiver from one of more of the rules.

WARNING: Do not relist old material as new after short periods of time. This defies the purpose of the New Books list and is unfriendly towards other member-sellers and buyers alike. Approval Books must remain active for a reasonable duration, not just a short time. Approval books are not to be used as quick auction substitutes, nor as "stores".

Sellers must monitor their book sales. Approval Books must be deactivated when depleted (> 90% sold), when no sales have occurred for several months, or after ONE year from the date the book was published.

Stamporama reserves the right to revoke selling privileges of members who violate the Approval Book Rules."




The items in this page that are not in the Approvals Rules and Guidelines should immediately be inserted in them. The Activation Page is not the only page they should be in.


Long Live The Market.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"One persons idea of improvement may be detrimental to others...........Some are more equal than others. (Always to be avoided)"
lemaven
Members Picture
25 Nov 2017
03:11:50pm

Approvals
re: Approval Books...there are Books :) and there are Books :(

There are some times that I have a stamp that looks sound but when I see the scan I notice something "minor" like a short/pulled perf or a "bend" only visible on the gum side. The downside of getting old I guess...but then I will either "disable" the stamp, apply a discount in the description, or include it at no cost. It's just not worth getting 2-5c and causing an unhappy buyer.

These examples are egregious. But at the same time, when I once got a PM about an Approvals book with a couple minor issues a year or so ago, I pointed to a book with many examples of the type shown here and was told (paraphrasing here) "the seller is a long-time member who is about 92, so..."

So, just saying, hopefully we can give the benefit of doubt that not all sellers here are totally "with it" - rather than being "scammers"; and that buyers can discern real crap like these examples and avoid them, while finding some (let's say 25-40% non-shite).

This is certainly a minor-minority of sellers (and I'll place a wager not the much-maligned "dealers") and hopefully a private PM, as opposed to public shaming, might be a better way to go?

Dave.

Like 
3 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
michael78651
Members Picture
SOR Auctioneer
25 Nov 2017
03:32:36pm
re: Approval Books...there are Books :) and there are Books :(

Quote:

"Also under the Approvals section it lists the Moderators etc for the AUCTIONS not APPROVALS."



Ian, you are correct. Thank you for pointing this out. It was an oversight that has been corrected/clarified in the online documentation. Other contemplated changes that were intended to be made/implemented to address many of the issues discussed in this thread have been delayed for various reasons.

Michael
Auctioneer
Like
Login to Like
this post

"My book, "The Whitechapel Fog" is available on Kindle!"

www.hipstamp.com/store/the-online-stamp-shop
rrraphy
Members Picture
Retired Ap. Book Mod. Retired Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Retired consultant
25 Nov 2017
04:33:15pm
re: Approval Books...there are Books :) and there are Books :(

Ian: Rule 1 on the activation list.

Quote:

"NOTE: Please make sure that you indicate clearly any known defects."



But you are right that one could be more forceful in stating "defective stamps are not allowed"! Although now we will nitpick on what is a defective stamp? Still, monitoring this requires that the moderator checks every page of every book issued. Not likely to happen.

rrr....

Like
Login to Like
this post

"C. Hitchens — 'That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.'"
lemaven
Members Picture
25 Nov 2017
05:35:09pm

Approvals
re: Approval Books...there are Books :) and there are Books :(

Regarding gggrrraphy's comments...

Quote:

"...one could be more forceful in stating "defective stamps are not allowed"..."



I think Ralph has been very clear about what the rules are, and has sometimes suffered negative responses as a result (I have disagreed with some things, but have tried not to be confrontational). I would say he has done his (well-paid???) job on this and what more could we ask in positioning this to sellers?

Personally, as a manager/business owner/dad, I like the 3-step process: I'll ask you - I'll tell you - I'll make you. I've been through "Step #1" before (and rightfully so), and I respect that input/criticism.

Quote:

"...monitoring this requires that the moderator checks every page of every book issued. Not likely to happen..."



Again, I can't imagine the time that goes into the monitoring of Auctions/Approvals as it is - let alone expanding it. I would just reiterate my previous comment (in concert with the suggested 3-step process above). PM the "offender" off-line - removing the book if needed (extreme?) - or telling them to disable the crappy offerings (better?).

Dave.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Brechinite
Members Picture
Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons
25 Nov 2017
06:25:59pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: Approval Books...there are Books :) and there are Books :(

rraphy:- its not a question of being forceful.

That Note should be in the Approval Rules and Guidelines NOT as a note on the activation page.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"One persons idea of improvement may be detrimental to others...........Some are more equal than others. (Always to be avoided)"
Brechinite
Members Picture
Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons
25 Nov 2017
06:45:26pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: Approval Books...there are Books :) and there are Books :(

Come on, an experienced moderator, after a period of time WILL know who are the good guys and who are the wise guys.

NO moderator can be expected to inspect every stamp on every page in every book. Random samples should be sufficient.

Roy's earlier post showing damaged stamps in the Approvals and buyers buying from such a book beggars your/my belief, BUT it shows that some buyers wanted other stamps from these books.

I am still of the opinion that the "market" will eventually decide.

I have no problem in moderators using their common sense in applying the rules.

It is interesting that my comment in possible ways to improve the Approval Books has been ignored. Namely:-

Quote:

"My proposal is that there should be a maximum of 12 pages, a maximum of 15 items to a page and a total minimum selling value of $10 in a book. The book only listed for three months."



Quote:

"This may help those that do not want to trawl through hundreds and hundreds of stamps and encourage others to add higher priced stamps. It may also help improve the images that some sellers enter. It would also prevent vast amounts of out of date data being held in the system."





Brace yourself Ian.


Like
Login to Like
this post

"One persons idea of improvement may be detrimental to others...........Some are more equal than others. (Always to be avoided)"
rrraphy
Members Picture
Retired Ap. Book Mod. Retired Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Retired consultant
25 Nov 2017
06:50:40pm
re: Approval Books...there are Books :) and there are Books :(

Ian, I agree it should be in both.
But it is in the activation page that sellers agree and sign off on this rule, so I am not going to speculate why the rule is not showing too with the same wording elsewhere. Wording changed over time, maybe it did not get transferred...as you know, we work with volunteers.
You can help Michael or others proofread if you wish, I am sure it would be appreciated.

But I as far as I am concerned, when you sign off on something, it is a contract! That should do it.
The rule is where it should be if the book is to be activated!
rrr...

Like
Login to Like
this post

"C. Hitchens — 'That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.'"
rrraphy
Members Picture
Retired Ap. Book Mod. Retired Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Retired consultant
25 Nov 2017
07:00:41pm
re: Approval Books...there are Books :) and there are Books :(

Quote:

""My proposal is that there should be a maximum of 12 pages, a maximum of 15 items to a page and a total minimum selling value of $10 in a book. The book only listed for three months.""


Suggestions are easy to make, but it is not how it works Ian, and you should know it.
Any well thought proposal is discussed and the pluses and minuses are studied.

Your suggestion, is it even worth discussing?
why 12?
why 15 items?
why $10?
why 3 months?
Does it really serve our membership?
what about exceptions...

Do you even have the slightest idea how long it took to agree to the 100 stamp rule, and then add all the exceptions?

But above all, there are many related considerations, including ease of implementation and moderator control, not even touching on software issues that you previously claimed to want to spare Tim from the extra work... etc...all enter into the bigger picture.

Just throwing your latest suggestion out there ..well not surprisingly, it is seemingly ignored! Join the club my friend, most suggestions are ignored...lol...I should know it!

rrr...

Like
Login to Like
this post

"C. Hitchens — 'That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.'"
Brechinite
Members Picture
Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons
25 Nov 2017
07:00:55pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: Approval Books...there are Books :) and there are Books :(

rrraphy I do not dispute that it is in the activation page.

That and one or two other notes should be in the Approval Rules and Guidelines.

In the Auction area in the Home Page there is a separate sub heading that says Rules. There is no such sub heading in Approvals on the Home Page. It is not easy to find the rules for Approvals currently on the site, so how can you expect members to adhere to them.


All hail to the "Market"





Like
Login to Like
this post

"One persons idea of improvement may be detrimental to others...........Some are more equal than others. (Always to be avoided)"
Brechinite
Members Picture
Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons
25 Nov 2017
07:03:19pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: Approval Books...there are Books :) and there are Books :(

rraphy:- I am used to being ignored.

I know my position in life......on the bottom step of the ladder beneath the cat and the dog!!!

Like
Login to Like
this post

"One persons idea of improvement may be detrimental to others...........Some are more equal than others. (Always to be avoided)"
rrraphy
Members Picture
Retired Ap. Book Mod. Retired Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Retired consultant
25 Nov 2017
07:06:11pm
re: Approval Books...there are Books :) and there are Books :(

LOL Ian...I feel the same!
But I don't give up. That is how improvements are made.

rrr...

Like
Login to Like
this post

"C. Hitchens — 'That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.'"
Brechinite
Members Picture
Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons
26 Nov 2017
11:17:56am

Auctions - Approvals
re: Approval Books...there are Books :) and there are Books :(

rrraphy:-

I only threw out these "proposals" to give you something to come back at me with as I do feel a fintessimal amount of guilt, plus it gives the "troops" some entertainment.

Hey! Maybe we should form a double act like Bob Hope and Bing Crosby (I won't start singing Buttons and Bows as long as you don't sing White Christmas).

We could also make a movie.....Road to Disaster!

Quote:

"When I want to be amusing.....I can be amusing...Edmund Blackadder"



Like
Login to Like
this post

"One persons idea of improvement may be detrimental to others...........Some are more equal than others. (Always to be avoided)"
cougar
Members Picture
27 Dec 2017
08:35:04pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: Approval Books...there are Books :) and there are Books :(

The obvious damaged stamps are fine, in the way that at least we can detect them and never buy them.

What I have a huge problem with are thins, creases and stains that were not described and were not visible in the scans.

I just received a few damaged stamps out of a lot of 46 stamps total. What bothers me is that the thins are so visible, one can spot them from a meter away looking at the back of the stamp.

Here is an image. Increasing the auto contrast really helped in showing all defects stand out.Image Not Found

I paid 45 cents for the lot and unfortunately I am not going to let this one slide. One too many.

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
cdj1122
Members Picture
Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
04 Jan 2018
04:45:53pm
re: Approval Books...there are Books :) and there are Books :(

First off, I agree heartily with Ian's point of the marketplace, correction, although I know that the famous "Invisiple Hand " is sometimes clueless.
Let me add one point about seemingly worthless minimal value issues.
One of my pleasures in philately is a sub-topic of accumulating minor varieties of long lasting definitives, things such as the Machins of course, Wildings, Posthorns, Inflation Issues, post-WWI Hungarian issues, Chinese Junks and Martyrs, Argentinian departmental overprints, US Flags over whatever, Canadian Flag definitives. and many other long drawn out sets that fill pages of a blank page album.
THese supplement my postally used world wide albums. Many of these issues are interesting precisely because they are common and generally available at minimal cost.

Many, probably most, minor varieties from foreign countries are not mentioned in Scott and require one of the inclusive overseas catalogs. Also some minor details are near impossible to see at the scale displayed in the approvals section, but at minimal price can be bought and placed under the microscope.
Rules that set a minimum "Standard Catalog listing" would eliminate that avenue of collecting.

None of the above affects requiring a minimal standard of condition.
One of the best suggestions is to have a seller's first offerings submitted for approval so that suggestions to remove the hideous stamps some members showed as examples of poor judgement. I doubt that experienced sellers want to put junk in an approval book, but newbie can be taught that such junk not only does not sell they add an exceedingly pungent stench to their reputation.

Like 
3 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.

".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
BenFranklin1902
Members Picture
Tom in Exton, PA
05 Jan 2018
10:50:31am
re: Approval Books...there are Books :) and there are Books :(

Image Not Found

I believe this is Asia? Surprise


Back to the subject.. everyone needs one copy of all those cheap and common stamps. True, any seasoned collector will already have them, but there are always newbies coming into the hobby and onto our board.

Even seasoned collectors pick up new areas of interest. Case in point.. I started thumbing through my old Germany collection from when I was a kid and living in Germany. It's elementary at best, and included all the stamps that were current in that 1970-3 time frame, that I bought at the local post office.

I came across Dakota's approval book on Germany and pretty much bought the whole book. No doubt there are some very easy to find stamps in what I bought, but I needed them as a beginning collector of that country.

Like 
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
amsd
Members Picture
Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
05 Jan 2018
12:39:36pm
re: Approval Books...there are Books :) and there are Books :(

Charlie's post is interesting and points to "value" in damaged stamps. There ARE fly speck and color variety and color shift collectors out there for whom the damage that Cougar showcased might not matter. Bravo.

Let those who have these broken and despairing pieces offer them up for free, or for the cost of shipping, or send them to Dave who's now doing the Holocaust thing.

But those things OUGHT NOT be sold; they are garbage for most of us, and worthy of a look by a few. AND, our rules proscribe their sale, except with restrictions

Now, you got burned covers, crash covers, damaged in transit covers, bring em on.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Save the USPS, buy stamps; save the hobby, use commemoratives"

juicyheads.com/link.php?PLJZJP
cougar
Members Picture
05 Jan 2018
03:12:17pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: Approval Books...there are Books :) and there are Books :(

As mentioned zooming in on a stamp and increasing the auto contrast makes a simply visible defect look horrendous and even pinpoint a few more defects that the naked eye could not previously identify.

Dealing with used stamps I am also in the same boat, offering stamps that are at times in dubious condition. It can be embarrassing. But there are also times when an obviously defective stamp can be used as a filler to complete a set.

And in this regard I wonder if it is at all possible to add a feature to the current Approval's page. Would it be possible to have an option, when the approvals book is created to exclude a certain stamp from the invoice total? I listed 2 fillers in my recent African approvals book thinking I will be able to sort things out at the end and subtract the cost of the fillers from the invoice total. I failed in both cases, the invoices were paid and I have to now think of ways to compensate the buyers that paid for what I advertised as "free".

Like
Login to Like
this post
cardstamp
Members Picture
05 Jan 2018
03:51:51pm

Approvals
re: Approval Books...there are Books :) and there are Books :(

Two comments:
1) There is an option when you create an invoice - to remove items you do not want included in the invoice. I do this quite often when certain stamps selected are either damaged after they are removed from the approval book or when I see a damage that I did not notice previously (like a small crease, tear or pinhole for example).. The cumbersome part with these removals is that you still need to process them onto another invoice and then close out that invoice - to get them off the list of items that were sold.

2) I have to plead guilty to possibly having sold stamps that have some damage like a small thin or heavy hinge remnant. I never send an obviously torn stamp but I have found some buyers are more concerned with the condition of the back of the stamp than others. If anyone ever complains about a bad stamp - I gladly give them a refund and 99% of the time they can just toss the stamp - no reason to send it back. On more expensive stamps I am more careful to look at the overall condition and NEVER send a questionable stamp out.

Steve

Like
Login to Like
this post

www.hipstamp.com/store/father-son-stamps
lemaven
Members Picture
05 Jan 2018
04:14:14pm

Approvals
re: Approval Books...there are Books :) and there are Books :(

I guess it's a function of most of us being "geezers", but I too have sometimes done a double-take looking at stamps I've put up for sale. What I thought looked ok revealed itself to have some hidden "flaw" when scanned and posted.

In those cases, I either specify a "reduction" on the Approval page for that particular stamp, and/or adjust the invoice total for a credit under "Other" with a note about it.

Shameless Plug...

As part of ramping up my donations to the "new/relaunched" Holocaust Stamps Project (Canada), I've been pre-sorting stamps on the gum side (where flaws are usually more noticeable) and setting aside anything even remotely "damaged" before I even look at the actual stamp. Makes for more donations and hopefully ensures (as much as humanly possible) that anything I do sell should be damage-free.

Dave.

Like 
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
michael78651
Members Picture
SOR Auctioneer
05 Jan 2018
06:11:41pm
re: Approval Books...there are Books :) and there are Books :(

Quote:

"And in this regard I wonder if it is at all possible to add a feature to the current Approval's page. Would it be possible to have an option, when the approvals book is created to exclude a certain stamp from the invoice total?"



That's not necessary.

When you create the invoice for your buyer, simply add a negative amount equal to the price of the stamp(s) that you do not wish to charge for in the OTHER CHARGES box. The adjustment will be made by the system on the invoice, and your buyer will pay the adjusted net amount.

If you find a stamp that you do not want to sell after the approval book has been posted (and the stamp hasn't been bought yet), you can go to the edit function and inactivate the button for that stamp. No one will be able to buy the stamp when the button is inactivated.

Michael
Auctioneer
Like
Login to Like
this post

"My book, "The Whitechapel Fog" is available on Kindle!"

www.hipstamp.com/store/the-online-stamp-shop
cougar
Members Picture
06 Jan 2018
01:04:14am

Auctions - Approvals
re: Approval Books...there are Books :) and there are Books :(

Michael, I am aware of this functionality. The problem is that at the time I create the invoice I do not have any visual indication that the "free" stamp is on the list. I have to check the entries one by one. I do not pull the stamps out of the approvals book at the time I invoice. I pull them out when a payment is made. Lesson learned, anyways. I will not be listing any more of those items as I have no good way of dealing with them.

Like
Login to Like
this post
        
Please Note:
Postings that were loaded from the old Discussion Board cannot be edited.

Contact Webmaster | Visitors Online | Unsubscribe Emails


This site is provided by Roy Lingen at www.buckacover.com

User Agreement

Copyright © 2019 Stamporama.com