Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
It's also possible in many instances to pick up multiples of an issue below face value! For example, I just saw on ebay a listing for 10 commemorative sets from 1997 at £3 below face, yet SG lists each U/M set at £8. This means I can buy the 10 sets for £15 but which have a total catalogue value of £80.
Like other items online, there seems to be a price war going on but in the case of stamps I wonder if this is actually detrimental? The 1963 FFH phosphor set MNH, catalogued at £30, is on ebay for £5.95 post free; also the Red Cross set MNH (catalogued at £65) for under £10. I'd love to hear people's comments and the implications, if any, of all this.
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Catalog values mean nothing. What people are willing to pay is all that matters, and establishes the market value of the stamps.
Remember that when catalogs are printed, the values in them are already out of date. Catalog values are a loose guide at best, but rarely do collectors pay anywhere neat to full catalog value for a stamp.
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I got back to the hobby two years ago and was surprised that prices were lower than they were when I left the hobby back around 1980. Most USA stamps from the late 1930s to date are worth face or less. I've bought large lots at 60-80% of face.
Since the 1940s people have saved multiple full sheets of new stamps. As my father once told me in my youth, "if everyone saved 50 copies of each stamp, we'll need 50 times the number of collectors we have now for them to appreciate." And of course the collector population has gone the other way!
I think about that as I sort through hoards of stamps and realize that most of the stamps saved have never been "the one" in anyone's collection. They just been stored en-mass for decades. I have boxes of covers from the 1930s and 1940s with copies of 5-10 of the same cover, addressed to the same person. Those have just been stashed away since then. Think about that!
For me, this is a good thing. I'm just following a bucket list item to build a USA collection like I wanted as a kid. So I'm happy to have all these stamps I remembered available to me as cheap as they are today!
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I think there is more than one factor influencing this apparent drop in prices in the UK, for GB material. This may be true for other countries too.
For my money, the main culprit is Royal Mail. The incessant release of new issues has I think devalued the 'art' of collecting. It has just become monotonous accumulation. But this is nothing new.
No sooner has one issue been released, another takes its place about 6 weeks later.
Another factor is the potentially huge price of new issues. If one is drawn into buying all the associated paraphernalia such as miniature sheets, collectors packs, press sheets, FDC's and booklets, it really becomes financially unsustainable. Album space must be a challenge too.
There is much criticism too of Royal Mail issuing higher value stamps (for Europe and Worldwide Zones) within for example; Prestige booklets. The booklets retail now for about £15 plus (about $20). And there are between 4 and 5 a year. These of course just don't get used domestically (and probably rarely abroad).
For those wanting to collect postally used new issues in addition to mint obtained from a bureau, they are finding it increasingly frustrating when they can't obtain them at many post offices to use them on mail.
This is exacerbated by The Post Office seemingly reluctant to cancel commemorative stamp mailings; few as they are.
There surely is a point when many collectors feel it is pointless collecting mint stamps when they can't obtain used copies to complete their collection. Perhaps this is the point that mint 'accumulations' then come onto (flood?) the market.
I personally do not know of one collector in my local club and stamp fair that collects modern GB. Those that once did, have now moved to collecting GVI and earlier classics. It's quite sobering when conversations about modern GB resort to rolling of eyes and head shaking.
As has also been said, catalogue prices (particularly Stanley Gibbons) are stuff of pipe dreams. These tomes really only serve one purpose; just to list stamp issues chronologically. Well perhaps another; to disappoint the collector when they come to sell.
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Ningpo,
What you said applies to me an U.S. stamps as well. My commemoratives are housed in 12 White Ace binders. (Basically 2" 3-ring binders). Binder #1 contains 57 years of U.S. Commemoratives. Binder #2 has 20 years, #3 10 years. The last two only hold two years of commemoratives each when you include all the press sheet varieties without die-cuts.
I ended my collection 12-31-14 out of frustration. I still collect, but now solely focus my time, energy, and budget on earlier issues.
Lars
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Using numbers of stamps on Colnect I calculated there were 195,000 stamps to 1970 or 1,500 per year, and 460,000 stamps 1971 to date or 11,500 per year. Assuming there is some accuracy in these numbers, I'm glad I do not collect post 1970 issues.
As to SG catalogue prices, as far as I can see, the higher the value, the higher the SG asset value.
It would be interesting to pick a random page in one of my SG catalogues, add up the total value as assessed by SG and compare the value of identical stamps in the Scott catalogue. However, I do not have access to Scott.
Regards
Richmond.
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Just a quick search with Google showed the following (I am sure much more can be found if you put more time into it):
In 1999, 16,107 stamps were issued worldwide.
In 2000, it was a staggering 17,896.
Of these, Liberia alone issued 771 different stamps, of which 94 souvenir sheets. Second in the list was the Gambia with 632 stamps and s/s. It is noteworthy that these two small African countries were responsible for almost 8% of the world's stamp output in terms of different stamps.
It appears that the main culprit is a New York based private company called IGPC, the "Inter Governmental Philatelic Corporation, a company that designs, produces and promotes postage stamps for 70 different countries (or stamp issuing entities). The majority of these countries is in Africa, the Caribbean and Pacific area and not surprisingly Liberia and Gambia are among IGPC's customers. Most of its output is not meant to end up for postage, but is created with the (American) stamp collector in mind. About half of today's stamp production is done by IGPC and are strictly speaking inappropriate issues.
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There is one dealer that sells sheet lots below face but then asks 2x or more face if you want a particular sheet even if common.
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04:32:41am
If you have not been using discount postage for years on your out going mail you have missed something.
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Discount postage can be a challenge. Kinda tough to fit 16 3 cent stamps on an envelope!
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remember that older US postage and lower denominations are likely not tagged, meaning they often go outside the system, delaying delivery. If speed is an issue, make sure at least one stamp is tagged.
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You can have a postal clerk add a "zero" meter strip to the mailpiece. That takes care of the lack of tagging.
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Try to mail a package with older stamps and you will often get pushback- 'What are these?' etc. I usually use any older stamps up on letters, drop them in the box and no problem.
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Thanks for your comments to my OP.
What I was keen to address in particular was in the last paragraph. The GB phosphor issues seem to be worth less in real terms than they were years ago. Is the online marketplace responsible for this and/or is it that there are fewer stamp collectors these days so prices tumbled due to lack of demand?
With regard to SG catalogue values, I realise these are their selling prices but in the past it was the standard by which dealers sold (at half the stated prices). That seems to have changed now as I am into my third stint at collecting, having sold collections in 1979 and 2002.
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Perhaps your question about GB phosphors, is entwined with your statement here:
"With regard to SG catalogue values, I realise these are their selling prices but in the past it was the standard by which dealers sold (at half the stated prices). That seems to have changed now as I am into my third stint at collecting, having sold collections in 1979 and 2002."
I started my Hong Kong collection around 1985. I spent my lunch hours traipsing through all the stamp shops around the Strand, Maiden Lane, St Martins Lane and Cecil Street, in London. There were numerous dealers then.
Collectors generally had to tolerate pricing, as you indicated, set at 50%; 65-80% for MNH based on Gibbons. This even extended to some local fair dealers, who didn't even have the same overheads.
Material was not easy to obtain; hence dealers being able to maintain their prices at these levels.
Then came the internet..........
All of a sudden, the material that I had been led to believe to be thin on the ground, just popped up in far greater quantity than I could ever imagine.
And prices then reflected this upsurge of availability. There was far more material than the Gibbons catalogue had led me to believe.
I'm pretty sure that this situation affected other collecting fields too. For example, art glass, specialist pottery, porcelain, watercolours etc.
I have been able to obtain HK material now which I only dreamed of years ago, by judicious buying. By that I mean; drilling the internet beyond eBay and researching my field online and through books (which incidentally I only bought because I became aware of through the internet).
I have dropped clangers too. But far fewer than I made back in 1985.
Perhaps the price changes you are experiencing can be attributed to this same marketing change. Unfortunately, there is one establishment that is either being obtuse about the modern market, or it is deliberately inflating its own sense of (stock) worth; Stanley Gibbons.
Finally, you suggest collector numbers may be fewer. This may be true up to a point. And/or collectors are selling QE material and investing (I mentioned this before) in 'classical' material, which is probably less volatile and quirky.
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As to the phosphors it has everything to do with pre-internet perceived scarcity vs post internet reality.
When Ebay was young, perhaps 1997 or 1998 I bought a Byrd Expedition cover from a stack of perhaps 50 identical covers from another dealer for $1. It was a number 10 envelope and all the copies had been torn at the bottom by a rubber band.
It brought $187.50. I sent out a congratulatory note and the response was "Congratulations my xxx - there are only two people in the whole world who want that cover and I am one of them. It is a coal stop on the southbound run and is the first cover from there to turn up in all these years."
The dealer I purchased it from put one of the remaining 49 covers on a couple of months later and it brought $10.
I had an antique shop back in the 90's so have sold a lot of eclectic material and the same scenario has played out over and over and over - what once was scarce is not quite so scarce anymore. Ask a book dealer about first editions ...
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04:24:55pm
I've noticed over the years that the value of modern GB stamps seems to be diminishing. Despite SG catalogue prices, you can pick up MNH (U/M) stamps online for around one quarter of catalogue prices. This may seems a good thing for us collectors but are online price wars effectively reducing many modern stamp values?
It's also possible in many instances to pick up multiples of an issue below face value! For example, I just saw on ebay a listing for 10 commemorative sets from 1997 at £3 below face, yet SG lists each U/M set at £8. This means I can buy the 10 sets for £15 but which have a total catalogue value of £80.
Like other items online, there seems to be a price war going on but in the case of stamps I wonder if this is actually detrimental? The 1963 FFH phosphor set MNH, catalogued at £30, is on ebay for £5.95 post free; also the Red Cross set MNH (catalogued at £65) for under £10. I'd love to hear people's comments and the implications, if any, of all this.
Login to Like
this post
05:32:31pm
re: The 'value' of modern issues and online selling
Catalog values mean nothing. What people are willing to pay is all that matters, and establishes the market value of the stamps.
Remember that when catalogs are printed, the values in them are already out of date. Catalog values are a loose guide at best, but rarely do collectors pay anywhere neat to full catalog value for a stamp.
Login to Like
this post
re: The 'value' of modern issues and online selling
I got back to the hobby two years ago and was surprised that prices were lower than they were when I left the hobby back around 1980. Most USA stamps from the late 1930s to date are worth face or less. I've bought large lots at 60-80% of face.
Since the 1940s people have saved multiple full sheets of new stamps. As my father once told me in my youth, "if everyone saved 50 copies of each stamp, we'll need 50 times the number of collectors we have now for them to appreciate." And of course the collector population has gone the other way!
I think about that as I sort through hoards of stamps and realize that most of the stamps saved have never been "the one" in anyone's collection. They just been stored en-mass for decades. I have boxes of covers from the 1930s and 1940s with copies of 5-10 of the same cover, addressed to the same person. Those have just been stashed away since then. Think about that!
For me, this is a good thing. I'm just following a bucket list item to build a USA collection like I wanted as a kid. So I'm happy to have all these stamps I remembered available to me as cheap as they are today!
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re: The 'value' of modern issues and online selling
I think there is more than one factor influencing this apparent drop in prices in the UK, for GB material. This may be true for other countries too.
For my money, the main culprit is Royal Mail. The incessant release of new issues has I think devalued the 'art' of collecting. It has just become monotonous accumulation. But this is nothing new.
No sooner has one issue been released, another takes its place about 6 weeks later.
Another factor is the potentially huge price of new issues. If one is drawn into buying all the associated paraphernalia such as miniature sheets, collectors packs, press sheets, FDC's and booklets, it really becomes financially unsustainable. Album space must be a challenge too.
There is much criticism too of Royal Mail issuing higher value stamps (for Europe and Worldwide Zones) within for example; Prestige booklets. The booklets retail now for about £15 plus (about $20). And there are between 4 and 5 a year. These of course just don't get used domestically (and probably rarely abroad).
For those wanting to collect postally used new issues in addition to mint obtained from a bureau, they are finding it increasingly frustrating when they can't obtain them at many post offices to use them on mail.
This is exacerbated by The Post Office seemingly reluctant to cancel commemorative stamp mailings; few as they are.
There surely is a point when many collectors feel it is pointless collecting mint stamps when they can't obtain used copies to complete their collection. Perhaps this is the point that mint 'accumulations' then come onto (flood?) the market.
I personally do not know of one collector in my local club and stamp fair that collects modern GB. Those that once did, have now moved to collecting GVI and earlier classics. It's quite sobering when conversations about modern GB resort to rolling of eyes and head shaking.
As has also been said, catalogue prices (particularly Stanley Gibbons) are stuff of pipe dreams. These tomes really only serve one purpose; just to list stamp issues chronologically. Well perhaps another; to disappoint the collector when they come to sell.
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re: The 'value' of modern issues and online selling
Ningpo,
What you said applies to me an U.S. stamps as well. My commemoratives are housed in 12 White Ace binders. (Basically 2" 3-ring binders). Binder #1 contains 57 years of U.S. Commemoratives. Binder #2 has 20 years, #3 10 years. The last two only hold two years of commemoratives each when you include all the press sheet varieties without die-cuts.
I ended my collection 12-31-14 out of frustration. I still collect, but now solely focus my time, energy, and budget on earlier issues.
Lars
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re: The 'value' of modern issues and online selling
Using numbers of stamps on Colnect I calculated there were 195,000 stamps to 1970 or 1,500 per year, and 460,000 stamps 1971 to date or 11,500 per year. Assuming there is some accuracy in these numbers, I'm glad I do not collect post 1970 issues.
As to SG catalogue prices, as far as I can see, the higher the value, the higher the SG asset value.
It would be interesting to pick a random page in one of my SG catalogues, add up the total value as assessed by SG and compare the value of identical stamps in the Scott catalogue. However, I do not have access to Scott.
Regards
Richmond.
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Approvals
re: The 'value' of modern issues and online selling
Just a quick search with Google showed the following (I am sure much more can be found if you put more time into it):
In 1999, 16,107 stamps were issued worldwide.
In 2000, it was a staggering 17,896.
Of these, Liberia alone issued 771 different stamps, of which 94 souvenir sheets. Second in the list was the Gambia with 632 stamps and s/s. It is noteworthy that these two small African countries were responsible for almost 8% of the world's stamp output in terms of different stamps.
It appears that the main culprit is a New York based private company called IGPC, the "Inter Governmental Philatelic Corporation, a company that designs, produces and promotes postage stamps for 70 different countries (or stamp issuing entities). The majority of these countries is in Africa, the Caribbean and Pacific area and not surprisingly Liberia and Gambia are among IGPC's customers. Most of its output is not meant to end up for postage, but is created with the (American) stamp collector in mind. About half of today's stamp production is done by IGPC and are strictly speaking inappropriate issues.
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re: The 'value' of modern issues and online selling
There is one dealer that sells sheet lots below face but then asks 2x or more face if you want a particular sheet even if common.
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
04 Aug 2017
04:32:41am
re: The 'value' of modern issues and online selling
If you have not been using discount postage for years on your out going mail you have missed something.
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re: The 'value' of modern issues and online selling
Discount postage can be a challenge. Kinda tough to fit 16 3 cent stamps on an envelope!
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re: The 'value' of modern issues and online selling
remember that older US postage and lower denominations are likely not tagged, meaning they often go outside the system, delaying delivery. If speed is an issue, make sure at least one stamp is tagged.
Login to Like
this post
09:12:15am
re: The 'value' of modern issues and online selling
You can have a postal clerk add a "zero" meter strip to the mailpiece. That takes care of the lack of tagging.
Login to Like
this post
re: The 'value' of modern issues and online selling
Try to mail a package with older stamps and you will often get pushback- 'What are these?' etc. I usually use any older stamps up on letters, drop them in the box and no problem.
Login to Like
this post
06:06:54pm
re: The 'value' of modern issues and online selling
Thanks for your comments to my OP.
What I was keen to address in particular was in the last paragraph. The GB phosphor issues seem to be worth less in real terms than they were years ago. Is the online marketplace responsible for this and/or is it that there are fewer stamp collectors these days so prices tumbled due to lack of demand?
With regard to SG catalogue values, I realise these are their selling prices but in the past it was the standard by which dealers sold (at half the stated prices). That seems to have changed now as I am into my third stint at collecting, having sold collections in 1979 and 2002.
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this post
re: The 'value' of modern issues and online selling
Perhaps your question about GB phosphors, is entwined with your statement here:
"With regard to SG catalogue values, I realise these are their selling prices but in the past it was the standard by which dealers sold (at half the stated prices). That seems to have changed now as I am into my third stint at collecting, having sold collections in 1979 and 2002."
I started my Hong Kong collection around 1985. I spent my lunch hours traipsing through all the stamp shops around the Strand, Maiden Lane, St Martins Lane and Cecil Street, in London. There were numerous dealers then.
Collectors generally had to tolerate pricing, as you indicated, set at 50%; 65-80% for MNH based on Gibbons. This even extended to some local fair dealers, who didn't even have the same overheads.
Material was not easy to obtain; hence dealers being able to maintain their prices at these levels.
Then came the internet..........
All of a sudden, the material that I had been led to believe to be thin on the ground, just popped up in far greater quantity than I could ever imagine.
And prices then reflected this upsurge of availability. There was far more material than the Gibbons catalogue had led me to believe.
I'm pretty sure that this situation affected other collecting fields too. For example, art glass, specialist pottery, porcelain, watercolours etc.
I have been able to obtain HK material now which I only dreamed of years ago, by judicious buying. By that I mean; drilling the internet beyond eBay and researching my field online and through books (which incidentally I only bought because I became aware of through the internet).
I have dropped clangers too. But far fewer than I made back in 1985.
Perhaps the price changes you are experiencing can be attributed to this same marketing change. Unfortunately, there is one establishment that is either being obtuse about the modern market, or it is deliberately inflating its own sense of (stock) worth; Stanley Gibbons.
Finally, you suggest collector numbers may be fewer. This may be true up to a point. And/or collectors are selling QE material and investing (I mentioned this before) in 'classical' material, which is probably less volatile and quirky.
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09:20:12pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: The 'value' of modern issues and online selling
As to the phosphors it has everything to do with pre-internet perceived scarcity vs post internet reality.
When Ebay was young, perhaps 1997 or 1998 I bought a Byrd Expedition cover from a stack of perhaps 50 identical covers from another dealer for $1. It was a number 10 envelope and all the copies had been torn at the bottom by a rubber band.
It brought $187.50. I sent out a congratulatory note and the response was "Congratulations my xxx - there are only two people in the whole world who want that cover and I am one of them. It is a coal stop on the southbound run and is the first cover from there to turn up in all these years."
The dealer I purchased it from put one of the remaining 49 covers on a couple of months later and it brought $10.
I had an antique shop back in the 90's so have sold a lot of eclectic material and the same scenario has played out over and over and over - what once was scarce is not quite so scarce anymore. Ask a book dealer about first editions ...
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