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United States/Stamps : New Puzzle: Discerning 1888 vs 1893 Portrait Issues

 

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lemaven
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30 Aug 2016
09:48:13am
This is yet another confusing one (hopefully not just for me). Difference in colors and - even with the same color (and sometimes watermark - or lack thereof in this example) is a 5c chocolate #223 CV $4.75 or #255 CV $10.00? Surely there are some subtle differences (not explained in Scotts, at least that I can find) that allows you to tell the difference.

I've got another couple dozen of these to figure out, so any help with identification or clues to look for would - as always - be very much appreciated.

Thanks, Dave.

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Jansimon
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collector, seller, MT member

30 Aug 2016
09:52:37am

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re: New Puzzle: Discerning 1888 vs 1893 Portrait Issues

The easy part is looking for the little triangles in the corners.

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30 Aug 2016
10:11:44am
re: New Puzzle: Discerning 1888 vs 1893 Portrait Issues

These are simple compared to the Washington Franklins ..

#223 (1890-93 issue) does not have triangles in the corners

#255 (1994 issue) has triangles in the upper corners and is not watermarked.

#270 (1895 issue) has triangles in the upper corners and is watermarked.

As you are often just looking for a small piece of a watermark I always identify any stamp where the cancel is heavy enough to make it impossible to see a piece of a watermark if it is present as the cheaper variety (in this case the later issue).

Fortunately the stamp is blue in the 1897-1903 issue.

The 2 cent stamp is considerably more difficult and you have to look for triangle types and colors. To separate the watermarked 1895 issue from the later 1897-1903 issue you have to look for the Type IV characteristics shown in Scott. Once you are familiar with the different colors you can rough sort by color. The two cent reds used to bring about $15 a shoebox at shows in the 80's so many of us got a lot of practice.

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lemaven
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30 Aug 2016
10:33:07am
re: New Puzzle: Discerning 1888 vs 1893 Portrait Issues

Triangles. Doh! Very obvious now.

And Anglophile's paper "flick test" and paper-benchmarks article answers my very next post which I can now delete.

Moderator: Slight change in topic if that's ok...

The tricky part now are the darn watermarks which I find very difficult to detect in U.S. stamps as they don't seem to ever be nicely centred in the stamp nor taking up a lot of the paper area. Also, very tedious to spray some fluid on them then place on a black surface. Does anyone fill a small container and just dip them? Seems more efficient but not sure if there is a danger there.

Again, many thanks, especially for the links (which I am bookmarking for future reference and sharing).

Dave.

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seanpashby
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30 Aug 2016
03:13:29pm
re: New Puzzle: Discerning 1888 vs 1893 Portrait Issues

Start here and click on the stamp in question.

http://www.theswedishtiger.com/ID.html

P.S. Wait until you get to the Washington/Franklins.

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lemaven
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30 Aug 2016
08:04:26pm
re: New Puzzle: Discerning 1888 vs 1893 Portrait Issues

Thanks Sean. Another awesome site to bookmark.

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AntoniusRa
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The truth is within and only you can reveal it

31 Aug 2016
03:04:03am
re: New Puzzle: Discerning 1888 vs 1893 Portrait Issues

I've never heard of anyone spraying watermark fluid on stamps? I usually use Ronsonol lighter fluid in a stamp watermark tray. Any smallish very dark to black glass bowl or tray will work. If I'm doing just one stamp, I sometimes will put some fluid in between a black plastic stamp mount to see the wmk. This also works well for scanning watermarks. You have to be quick in reading some watermarks as the longer they stay wet the lighter the wmk becomes.
Be sure to read the information located at the tops of columns for sets you are working with. Doing this would have answered the questions you had about these.

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mitch.seymourfamily.com/mward/collection/mapindex.html
lemaven
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31 Aug 2016
07:17:36am
re: New Puzzle: Discerning 1888 vs 1893 Portrait Issues

Thanks Mitch. You're obviously not reading my THE HOARD exploits very closely. I am a notorious dunce, scofflaw, and {...add your own descriptor...}. Thanks for the tips.

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BenFranklin1902
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Tom in Exton, PA

31 Aug 2016
08:11:29am
re: New Puzzle: Discerning 1888 vs 1893 Portrait Issues

"I am a notorious dunce, scofflaw, and {...add your own descriptor...}."




I am a notorious dunce, scofflaw, and {overall nice guy who is sharing his bounty with us board members! }.
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lemaven
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31 Aug 2016
09:46:59am
re: New Puzzle: Discerning 1888 vs 1893 Portrait Issues

And the award for "Brown-Noser of the Year" Rolling On The Floor Laughing goes to Mr. Tom Geiger who has earned a 10% discount on all items + shipping purchased in "The Hoard's US Divestiture Program". Good work Tommy Boy!

Dave ("Loves A Compliment") LeMaven.


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CapeStampMan
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Mike

31 Aug 2016
12:32:50pm
re: New Puzzle: Discerning 1888 vs 1893 Portrait Issues

I also spray a fine mist of watermark fluid on my stamps. Not as much fluid gets wasted as when you pour or squirt it from the can, but lately have had trouble finding a spray bottle that will last more than a couple of months.
Mike

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seanpashby
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31 Aug 2016
05:08:26pm
re: New Puzzle: Discerning 1888 vs 1893 Portrait Issues

I use this squeeze bottle for watermark fluid. When you are finished, you can suck the excess fluid back into the bottle.
Image Not Found

If I am doing a lot of stamps at once, like Hungary Turils, I use the black plastic lid from a tub of Folgers coffee. It holds a lot of stamps at once.

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bluparrot

31 Aug 2016
06:15:58pm
re: New Puzzle: Discerning 1888 vs 1893 Portrait Issues

Dave,
A valuable resource is http://www.stampsmarter.com/1847_landing.html

Their Washington Franklin worksheet is a fantastic way to identify these difficult issues. It has been a great help to me.

There are many other great articles and help with other issues, watermarks, printing methods, grills, secret marks, etc.

-Les

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BenFranklin1902
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Tom in Exton, PA

31 Aug 2016
07:02:14pm
re: New Puzzle: Discerning 1888 vs 1893 Portrait Issues

"And the award for "Brown-Noser of the Year" Rolling On The Floor Laughing goes to Mr. Tom Geiger"



Hey, I call it as I see it! Happy

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"Check out my eBay Stuff! Username Turtles-Trading-Post"
        

 

Author/Postings
Members Picture
lemaven

30 Aug 2016
09:48:13am

This is yet another confusing one (hopefully not just for me). Difference in colors and - even with the same color (and sometimes watermark - or lack thereof in this example) is a 5c chocolate #223 CV $4.75 or #255 CV $10.00? Surely there are some subtle differences (not explained in Scotts, at least that I can find) that allows you to tell the difference.

I've got another couple dozen of these to figure out, so any help with identification or clues to look for would - as always - be very much appreciated.

Thanks, Dave.

Image Not Found

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
Members Picture
Jansimon

collector, seller, MT member
30 Aug 2016
09:52:37am

Approvals

re: New Puzzle: Discerning 1888 vs 1893 Portrait Issues

The easy part is looking for the little triangles in the corners.

Like
Login to Like
this post

www.etsy.com/nl/shop ...
Webpaper

In loving memory of Carol, my wife for 52 years.

30 Aug 2016
10:11:44am

re: New Puzzle: Discerning 1888 vs 1893 Portrait Issues

These are simple compared to the Washington Franklins ..

#223 (1890-93 issue) does not have triangles in the corners

#255 (1994 issue) has triangles in the upper corners and is not watermarked.

#270 (1895 issue) has triangles in the upper corners and is watermarked.

As you are often just looking for a small piece of a watermark I always identify any stamp where the cancel is heavy enough to make it impossible to see a piece of a watermark if it is present as the cheaper variety (in this case the later issue).

Fortunately the stamp is blue in the 1897-1903 issue.

The 2 cent stamp is considerably more difficult and you have to look for triangle types and colors. To separate the watermarked 1895 issue from the later 1897-1903 issue you have to look for the Type IV characteristics shown in Scott. Once you are familiar with the different colors you can rough sort by color. The two cent reds used to bring about $15 a shoebox at shows in the 80's so many of us got a lot of practice.

Like
Login to Like
this post

www.hipstamp.com/sto ...
Members Picture
lemaven

30 Aug 2016
10:33:07am

re: New Puzzle: Discerning 1888 vs 1893 Portrait Issues

Triangles. Doh! Very obvious now.

And Anglophile's paper "flick test" and paper-benchmarks article answers my very next post which I can now delete.

Moderator: Slight change in topic if that's ok...

The tricky part now are the darn watermarks which I find very difficult to detect in U.S. stamps as they don't seem to ever be nicely centred in the stamp nor taking up a lot of the paper area. Also, very tedious to spray some fluid on them then place on a black surface. Does anyone fill a small container and just dip them? Seems more efficient but not sure if there is a danger there.

Again, many thanks, especially for the links (which I am bookmarking for future reference and sharing).

Dave.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
seanpashby

30 Aug 2016
03:13:29pm

re: New Puzzle: Discerning 1888 vs 1893 Portrait Issues

Start here and click on the stamp in question.

http://www.theswedishtiger.com/ID.html

P.S. Wait until you get to the Washington/Franklins.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
lemaven

30 Aug 2016
08:04:26pm

re: New Puzzle: Discerning 1888 vs 1893 Portrait Issues

Thanks Sean. Another awesome site to bookmark.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
AntoniusRa

The truth is within and only you can reveal it
31 Aug 2016
03:04:03am

re: New Puzzle: Discerning 1888 vs 1893 Portrait Issues

I've never heard of anyone spraying watermark fluid on stamps? I usually use Ronsonol lighter fluid in a stamp watermark tray. Any smallish very dark to black glass bowl or tray will work. If I'm doing just one stamp, I sometimes will put some fluid in between a black plastic stamp mount to see the wmk. This also works well for scanning watermarks. You have to be quick in reading some watermarks as the longer they stay wet the lighter the wmk becomes.
Be sure to read the information located at the tops of columns for sets you are working with. Doing this would have answered the questions you had about these.

Like
Login to Like
this post

mitch.seymourfamily. ...
Members Picture
lemaven

31 Aug 2016
07:17:36am

re: New Puzzle: Discerning 1888 vs 1893 Portrait Issues

Thanks Mitch. You're obviously not reading my THE HOARD exploits very closely. I am a notorious dunce, scofflaw, and {...add your own descriptor...}. Thanks for the tips.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
BenFranklin1902

Tom in Exton, PA
31 Aug 2016
08:11:29am

re: New Puzzle: Discerning 1888 vs 1893 Portrait Issues

"I am a notorious dunce, scofflaw, and {...add your own descriptor...}."




I am a notorious dunce, scofflaw, and {overall nice guy who is sharing his bounty with us board members! }.
Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.

"Check out my eBay Stuff! Username Turtles-Trading-Post"
Members Picture
lemaven

31 Aug 2016
09:46:59am

re: New Puzzle: Discerning 1888 vs 1893 Portrait Issues

And the award for "Brown-Noser of the Year" Rolling On The Floor Laughing goes to Mr. Tom Geiger who has earned a 10% discount on all items + shipping purchased in "The Hoard's US Divestiture Program". Good work Tommy Boy!

Dave ("Loves A Compliment") LeMaven.


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this post
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CapeStampMan

Mike
31 Aug 2016
12:32:50pm

re: New Puzzle: Discerning 1888 vs 1893 Portrait Issues

I also spray a fine mist of watermark fluid on my stamps. Not as much fluid gets wasted as when you pour or squirt it from the can, but lately have had trouble finding a spray bottle that will last more than a couple of months.
Mike

Like
Login to Like
this post

"It's been three years now, since I joined a support group for procrastinators. We haven't met yet..."
Members Picture
seanpashby

31 Aug 2016
05:08:26pm

re: New Puzzle: Discerning 1888 vs 1893 Portrait Issues

I use this squeeze bottle for watermark fluid. When you are finished, you can suck the excess fluid back into the bottle.
Image Not Found

If I am doing a lot of stamps at once, like Hungary Turils, I use the black plastic lid from a tub of Folgers coffee. It holds a lot of stamps at once.

Like
Login to Like
this post
bluparrot

31 Aug 2016
06:15:58pm

re: New Puzzle: Discerning 1888 vs 1893 Portrait Issues

Dave,
A valuable resource is http://www.stampsmarter.com/1847_landing.html

Their Washington Franklin worksheet is a fantastic way to identify these difficult issues. It has been a great help to me.

There are many other great articles and help with other issues, watermarks, printing methods, grills, secret marks, etc.

-Les

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
BenFranklin1902

Tom in Exton, PA
31 Aug 2016
07:02:14pm

re: New Puzzle: Discerning 1888 vs 1893 Portrait Issues

"And the award for "Brown-Noser of the Year" Rolling On The Floor Laughing goes to Mr. Tom Geiger"



Hey, I call it as I see it! Happy

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Check out my eBay Stuff! Username Turtles-Trading-Post"
        

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