Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Hi,I´m a collector living in Sweden and lately all stamps on big covers, from USA, are being totally destroyed by USPS. They just take a marker, most often a red one and just get loose on the stamps with it. I thought of complaining to them but theres no way a person outside the US can mail them since they insist on having "state" and "ZIP code" as mandatory to fill in on their forms.
Same problem with destroyed stamps inside the US...??
Just take a look at the scan.....
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Ohhh 
that is AWFUL! About the only way to prevent it is to insist on a hand cancel and even then if the cancels aren't heavy enough some moron with a sharpie will deface the cover.
I must admit I've never seen one done it red - usually it is a big thick black marker.
So very sorry, Tobbe.
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Beautifully engraved and lithographed stamps ruined by the USPS. Clearly, they hate stamp collectors.
David
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It happens with other countries as well. Not just a USA problem. You have to remember that while it upsets stamp collectors, it is the job of postal employees in every country to protect the revenues of their postal service.
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I'm impressed. The USPS has advanced to using colored Sharpies!
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I had shared these on another thread. Even when they use a cancelling machine, they manage to mutilate the stamps. These are nicely printed postcards we did for our upcoming model show. The smears continue around on to the image side of the card.
Anyone else notice that older stamps tend to get torn in the sorting machines? A good quantity of these on my incoming eBay buys get shredded.
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It happens domestically as well. See the bottom cover below:
But Michael is right. In most cases this is caused by the sender not getting a hand cancel to ensure all stamps are properly cancelled. You can't blame USPS for that unless there is also a proper hand cancel already there. Even then you have no legitimate complaint. If you want a nicely cancelled stamp, buy a First Day cover or get a hand-back favor cancel. Anything going through the mailstream is subject to all kinds of abuse and I also see a lot of older stamps being ripped by the modern sorting machines as BenFranklin mentioned. USPS doesn't hate stamp collectors, far from it. They probably cater to us more now than at any time in their past. But their job is to move mail and protect revenue. If the automated machinery that moves the mail damages a 25 year old stamp or if they have to use a Sharpie to make up for missed cancels, you shouldn't fault them for doing their job.
Lars
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I agree with Lars and Michael above. We should not forget that the service you paid for and owed by the postal service is timely and safe delivery of the contents of an envelope or parcel - not to produce a perfect, collectable philatelic item.
Of course, I am also disappointed when I receive a "pencil-cancelled" item. Fortunately, it does not happen often in Germany. And most larger envelopes from the UK which I receive never get cancelled at all, not even by a sharpie.
Joachim
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Cancelling stamps with something other than a proper cancel is against postal regulations which require that stamps by cancelled with a proper cancel. In my mind it is not about getting a perfect philatelic product, but it's part of what I am paying for. Thankfully I have a post office near me that understands that.
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If you are the sender, perhaps the best way to avoid the marker-crayon treatment of your outgoing letters & flats & parcels is a Mailer's Postmark Permit, to wit:
What is an Mailer's Postmark Permit?
For letters, place the stamps a solid inch down from the top edge of the envelope, and the occasional shpritzy cancel will at least miss the stamps, while your MPP cancel will obviate the need for the marker-crayon.
I suspect that USPS management is instructing the clerks that it is simply faster to use a marker (dirt cheap to put one in every pocket) rather than hunt around for a hand-cancel device (even if one is nearby).
That might be a technical violation of the postal manual, as it does not apply the city/date, so the next time you write your congressman ...
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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We used to live in a neighborhood with a carrier who'd spend his break time sitting in his truck defacing stamps. I actually saw him doing this more than once. I tried talking to him about it then dropped it because he didn't seem quite bright to me and it seemed to be an obsession of his.
So I tried talking to staff at the main post office and got a quick education into attitudes toward stamps and collectors. An older woman there yelled at me- before slamming down the window- about 'all you stamp collectors want to do is to re-use stamps. "
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I agree that it is undesirable to have these marks on stamps. However, they may be preferable to the 'proper' cancellations shown by BenFranklin1902 above! Perhaps these kind of sharpie cancellations should be regarded as normal postally used condition for stamps.
How many people would prefer to have a sharpie cancellation to a very messy machine cancellation in their collection of 'used' stamps?
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"... How many people would prefer to have a sharpie cancellation to a very messy machine cancellation ..."
Not me.
Good subject for a new thread.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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I have received mail from both the U.S. and other countries (notably Sweden) with the Sharpie treatment. Must be lucky. I have seen both the black and red sharpie used.
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This is something I fail to understand. On one hand the post office is, basically, destroying collectible stamps with the markers. And on the other hand they sell A LOT of stamps to collectors. So are they trying to help the hobby, or hurt it?
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"... On one hand ... destroying collectible stamps ... on the other hand they sell A LOT of stamps to collectors. So are they trying to help the hobby, or hurt it? ..."
Different departments with different priorities.
No reason to expect that they would share a common policy or goals when they have different priorities.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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"This is something I fail to understand. On one hand the post office is, basically, destroying collectible stamps with the markers. And on the other hand they sell A LOT of stamps to collectors. So are they trying to help the hobby, or hurt it?"
Perhaps it all means you can't have it both ways ... LOL ...You are probably supposed to put the stamps you purchased from the philatelic department into your album - and not put it on an envelope and ask for a postal service in return
Joachim
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11:10:37am
The USPS gets no additional revenue from stamps that are used, so has no corporate incentive to support that side of the hobby.
They want you to collect mint stamps! (or their other philatelic products).
Roy
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Hi,
When I post an international/national letter for philatelic cause I make sure it is hand cancelled by the postman.But I am not sure what happens when it reaches the destination.
For packets or postcard received here in India, the postal department are kind to the Philatelist as they do not make any mark on the foreign stamps.I did get international packets with stamps which are not cancelled,but our local post didn't touch the stamps else they mark the cancellation in the other side or any vacant place.
Regards
Auro
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Now let's be honest about this. The majority of cases where a Sharpie attack happened was on a decorated cover (a cover with several stamps, often with varying denominations, and not always in the normal location for a spray on cancel). It's not a receiving clerk that uses a Sharpie. It's someone downstream that notices that stamps used to pay for a service haven't been cancelled. Requesting a hand cancel upon submission will solve most of those problems, but you still are not guaranteed that stamps submitted to the mailstream will arrive without blemish, nor should you.
I also find that (after requesting a hand cancel) it helps to ask for a zero value PVI (which tells folks downstream that the stamps were all added up somewhere). Be sure to leave room at the top right corner of the envelope for a PVI (kinda like a meter cancel on a sticker) if you go that route. The folks at my PO are VERY helpful, but they stress how important putting the PVI in the top right corner is. I don't know if it has UV tagging or if that's just a policy, but it's the only thing they seem to be sticklers about so I am more than happy to oblige.
Lars
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That's good to know, Lars. Thanks.
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Lars I have never heard of "PVI in the top right corner". What is PVI?
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Hi,
PVI is Postage Validated Imprint Label.
Jacques (jlav)
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Thank you. I don't know if I would like that to me it would make the cover not look very pretty. But if it were the difference between that and stamps with a black marker thru them I guess I would have to settle for that label.
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"I don't know if I would like that to me it would make the cover not look very pretty."
Just think of it as an auxiliary marking; postal history collectors love auxiliary markings.
Ted
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On 'a certain other discussion forum' there is precisely the opposite discussion. they are discussing why so many stamps pass through the system completely uncancelled.
If it is legitimate to post a link to a 'competing' board, here it is: http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=67688&sid=7fefba01a3f919a2a82e420aead5825e. If I shouldn't post a link, then the moderators will remove it and replace it with a soothing image!
Why these different perceptions? Are there national or regional differences in what postal staff do or are expected to do, or are trends being imagined, one way or the other, from limited evidence?
(Modified by Moderator on 2016-02-15 00:25:15)
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JPS, I did try that link, had to cut and paste the whole thing. It is from the StampBoards.com. They are chatting about what we've basically said here.
While it is nice to see what others are saying, that thread lent no real value. This is just my humble opinion. And I'll leave it for now.
Luree
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Both things happen.
Letter-sized mail that fits thru automated processing equipment sometimes comes thru uncancelled.
Most likely, in the USA, this is because stamped mail was passed thru the shpritz-free workstations used for metered mail ... again, most likely, simply because that was the workstation that was available at that time.
Flat-sized mail that is processed manually gets markered because that is faster & cheaper than properly cancelling each piece.
Both of these explanations focus on the cost of moving the mail.
No big mysteries, no big conspiracies, no big difference.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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02:26:27am
One thing that mystifies me is that often it is an envelope from a foreign country that is defaced with a sharpie. the excuse being, is to protect revenue. I do not understand how defacing some UK stamps in Texas or Florida (Often that were cancelled in the first place.) protects revenue. Even if I were to soak them off and save them for that round the world cruise I have been planning, how would that protect USPS revenue?
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"... One thing that mystifies me is that often it is an envelope from a foreign country that is defaced with a sharpie. the excuse being, is to protect revenue ..."
So you would have postal management instruct the clerks to:
- pickup the letter/flat/parcel with one hand;
- determine if all of the stamps are canceled;
- if not, determine the country-of-origin of the stamps;
- if USA & uncanceled, deface the stamps while you find the address;
- read the address, and toss the item into the appropriate bin.
I have been suggesting the postal management has instructed the clerks to:
- pickup the letter/flat/parcel with one hand;
- deface the stamps while you find the address;
- read the address, and toss the item into the appropriate bin.
Q/ Which procedure is faster & cheaper?
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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04:36:03am
Surely our esteemed postal clerks are intelligent enough, especially those working at the foreign mail sorting table, to be able to determine that an envelope with a mix of foreign stamps and a CUSTOM'S LABEL is affixed is not local mail even faster than scribbling all the stamps with a magic marker.
Or then, now that I think about it, probably not. Most have no idea what our local stamps are in the first place. Although, I should think Queen Elizabeth's profile might be a clue.
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The discussion has largely concentrated on the aesthetics of these defacements - quite legitimately. However, there is another issue that has not been aired.
If a collector is interested in postally used items and postal history, isn't the use of a sharpie, ballpoint pen, wax crayon, or whatever, by a postal employee an example of how postal items are currently handled by the relevant postal service? Shouldn't they find a place in a collection alongside all other examples of postmarking or cancelling?
I don't like stamps defaced in this way, but aren't we ignoring an aspect of postal history if we exclude them from our collections?
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Good point John! This practice indeed is part of postal history! The current equivalent of a 19th century pen cancel!
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The good news is: No Sharpie.
The bad news is: No cancellation.
The good news is: A nice clean block of 4 for my golf topical. 
Ted
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This one bore a PVI (op cit).
Never in the course of human events have so many stamps been ruined by so few strokes ...
... okay, overdoing it, but color me 
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey (who is disappointed that the sender, a long-established supplies dealer, does not have a cooperating postal clerk who will postmark their packages or, better yet, their own Mailer's Postmark Permit)
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A major dealer in the UK has the same problem. I've asked to be unsubscribed from their mailing lists on numerous occasions, as I'm sure their deliveries would be cancelled the same way.
"We can't do anything, it's the mail centre" doesn't cut it with me
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As for foreign stamps being pen-cancelled, I was told that there once was an international rule that *any* uncancelled stamp on a mail item should be cancelled by the first post office that noticed it. Hence e.g. German cancels on Hungarian stamps, or penstrokes by UK postal employees on letters from France. Not sure whether this rule still applies.
Another thing to consider: Mass frankings cause much work for the people supposed to cancel the stamps, and can be hard on the postmarking devices as well, in particular on uneven surfaces. For instance, on mail items sent during the German high inflation phase in 1923, you often see only one stroke of the dated postmark, the rest of the stamps are cancelled by pen, brush, aniline pencil, bottle stopper, blocks of wood, ...
Lastly: Isn't it the custom in North America (at least in the USA) that the dated part of the postmark should not normally be printed on the stamps, and that's why there are duplex cancellers, and in the olden days they used penstrokes and fancy cancels?
Not that it helps much, but maybe it explains some of the pictures shown above.
Martin
PS: Which countries do still use hand roller cancels? Germany I know. The USA did at least well into the 1980s. I seem to remember one from Belgium in 2015, and from Switzerland in the 2000s.
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When I have philatelic mail to send with a lot of stamps used as postage I just take it to the post office and have it hand cancelled. I never had a problem with this.
I have had some problems with my mail carrier using a Sharpie to mark stamps that were already cancelled. I had a conversation with him and he don't mark up my mail anymore. I found most Postal employees are accommodating.
Vince
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I recieved this one today. Whe I took it out of the mail box I thought niiiiice!
But then came the disapointment. Postal worker doodling on stamp. Again.
.....
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Ikey Pikey...Rest in peace, like so many good members we lost in the last few years.
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Legal cancel!
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05:39:07pm
"... I found most Postal employees are accommodating. ..."
Ah, yes, most. Overwhelmingly most. But even 1% is about 5,000 soulless cretins who seem to enjoy damaging interesting stamps, covers and/or confounding collectors.
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Question:-
How many members have actually been inside a Mail Handling Centre and seen how it operates from start to finish?
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I have been inside the mail processing plants. In fact I worked for Canada Post and when I retired the machines could sort 30,000 letters per hour.
If you ever get to take a tour it can be a real eye opener.
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In my working days I was a contract manager for the Texas Attorney General. I managed the mail center contract (private vendor), that also required me to interact with the post office. I saw mail operations not only at USPS centers, but also at USPS contracted service centers like Pitney-Bowes. It is something to see and watch in operation.
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"That might be a technical violation of the postal manual, as it does not apply the city/date, so the next time you write your congressman ..."
It is a big violation.
In some cases dates on postmarks are very important to prove the sender has met a deadline.
How can one prove when a letter was mailed when there is no dated postmark but a crayon line instead?
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"In some cases dates on postmarks are very important to prove the sender has met a deadline.
How can one prove when a letter was mailed when there is no dated postmark but a crayon line instead?"
that's the best argument i've ever heard for the abolition of crayons, markers, pens, and other imprecise devices
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AMSD-David:
I don't know if it still holds true, to-day, as my accountabt files my tax return to Canada Revenue Agency electronically; but decades ago, when everyone mailed their tax return, it had to be postmarked no later than 30 April. The post offices would stay open later than usual, to accommodate people getting their returned postmarked.
If it was postmarked 1 May or later, you would be penalised for filing your tax return late, if you owed money.
David
Ottawa, Canada
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"How can one prove when a letter was mailed when there is no dated postmark but a crayon line instead?""
If one requires proof of postage one should ask the sender to get "proof of postage" from the post office counter. If it is important to the receipient then they should ask for it to be sent "signed for".
Of course the postal services are there as a business to accept and deliver mail in an efficient and cost effective manner not to pander to a sub section of the population.
Especially when one considers the amount of Uncancelled stamps that are re-used.
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David Giles; still true in the States for those mailing their returns. And, as Ian notes, it would behoove an American to stand in line and wait for a free clerk, or to use an automated machine, both which can apply a date.
I suppose our Mr DeJoy would be just as happy to have no date on USPS mail as we move from aircraft to trucks and soon to those carts the Amish use.
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Hi,
I´m a collector living in Sweden and lately all stamps on big covers, from USA, are being totally destroyed by USPS. They just take a marker, most often a red one and just get loose on the stamps with it. I thought of complaining to them but theres no way a person outside the US can mail them since they insist on having "state" and "ZIP code" as mandatory to fill in on their forms.
Same problem with destroyed stamps inside the US...??
Just take a look at the scan.....
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re: USPS destroying stamps.....
Ohhh that is AWFUL! About the only way to prevent it is to insist on a hand cancel and even then if the cancels aren't heavy enough some moron with a sharpie will deface the cover.
I must admit I've never seen one done it red - usually it is a big thick black marker.
So very sorry, Tobbe.
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re: USPS destroying stamps.....
Beautifully engraved and lithographed stamps ruined by the USPS. Clearly, they hate stamp collectors.
David
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08:31:12pm
re: USPS destroying stamps.....
It happens with other countries as well. Not just a USA problem. You have to remember that while it upsets stamp collectors, it is the job of postal employees in every country to protect the revenues of their postal service.
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re: USPS destroying stamps.....
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08:37:25pm
re: USPS destroying stamps.....
I'm impressed. The USPS has advanced to using colored Sharpies!
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re: USPS destroying stamps.....
I had shared these on another thread. Even when they use a cancelling machine, they manage to mutilate the stamps. These are nicely printed postcards we did for our upcoming model show. The smears continue around on to the image side of the card.
Anyone else notice that older stamps tend to get torn in the sorting machines? A good quantity of these on my incoming eBay buys get shredded.
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re: USPS destroying stamps.....
It happens domestically as well. See the bottom cover below:
But Michael is right. In most cases this is caused by the sender not getting a hand cancel to ensure all stamps are properly cancelled. You can't blame USPS for that unless there is also a proper hand cancel already there. Even then you have no legitimate complaint. If you want a nicely cancelled stamp, buy a First Day cover or get a hand-back favor cancel. Anything going through the mailstream is subject to all kinds of abuse and I also see a lot of older stamps being ripped by the modern sorting machines as BenFranklin mentioned. USPS doesn't hate stamp collectors, far from it. They probably cater to us more now than at any time in their past. But their job is to move mail and protect revenue. If the automated machinery that moves the mail damages a 25 year old stamp or if they have to use a Sharpie to make up for missed cancels, you shouldn't fault them for doing their job.
Lars
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re: USPS destroying stamps.....
I agree with Lars and Michael above. We should not forget that the service you paid for and owed by the postal service is timely and safe delivery of the contents of an envelope or parcel - not to produce a perfect, collectable philatelic item.
Of course, I am also disappointed when I receive a "pencil-cancelled" item. Fortunately, it does not happen often in Germany. And most larger envelopes from the UK which I receive never get cancelled at all, not even by a sharpie.
Joachim
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re: USPS destroying stamps.....
Cancelling stamps with something other than a proper cancel is against postal regulations which require that stamps by cancelled with a proper cancel. In my mind it is not about getting a perfect philatelic product, but it's part of what I am paying for. Thankfully I have a post office near me that understands that.
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re: USPS destroying stamps.....
If you are the sender, perhaps the best way to avoid the marker-crayon treatment of your outgoing letters & flats & parcels is a Mailer's Postmark Permit, to wit:
What is an Mailer's Postmark Permit?
For letters, place the stamps a solid inch down from the top edge of the envelope, and the occasional shpritzy cancel will at least miss the stamps, while your MPP cancel will obviate the need for the marker-crayon.
I suspect that USPS management is instructing the clerks that it is simply faster to use a marker (dirt cheap to put one in every pocket) rather than hunt around for a hand-cancel device (even if one is nearby).
That might be a technical violation of the postal manual, as it does not apply the city/date, so the next time you write your congressman ...
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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re: USPS destroying stamps.....
We used to live in a neighborhood with a carrier who'd spend his break time sitting in his truck defacing stamps. I actually saw him doing this more than once. I tried talking to him about it then dropped it because he didn't seem quite bright to me and it seemed to be an obsession of his.
So I tried talking to staff at the main post office and got a quick education into attitudes toward stamps and collectors. An older woman there yelled at me- before slamming down the window- about 'all you stamp collectors want to do is to re-use stamps. "
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01:30:48pm
re: USPS destroying stamps.....
I agree that it is undesirable to have these marks on stamps. However, they may be preferable to the 'proper' cancellations shown by BenFranklin1902 above! Perhaps these kind of sharpie cancellations should be regarded as normal postally used condition for stamps.
How many people would prefer to have a sharpie cancellation to a very messy machine cancellation in their collection of 'used' stamps?
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re: USPS destroying stamps.....
"... How many people would prefer to have a sharpie cancellation to a very messy machine cancellation ..."
Not me.
Good subject for a new thread.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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re: USPS destroying stamps.....
I have received mail from both the U.S. and other countries (notably Sweden) with the Sharpie treatment. Must be lucky. I have seen both the black and red sharpie used.
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re: USPS destroying stamps.....
This is something I fail to understand. On one hand the post office is, basically, destroying collectible stamps with the markers. And on the other hand they sell A LOT of stamps to collectors. So are they trying to help the hobby, or hurt it?
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re: USPS destroying stamps.....
"... On one hand ... destroying collectible stamps ... on the other hand they sell A LOT of stamps to collectors. So are they trying to help the hobby, or hurt it? ..."
Different departments with different priorities.
No reason to expect that they would share a common policy or goals when they have different priorities.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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re: USPS destroying stamps.....
"This is something I fail to understand. On one hand the post office is, basically, destroying collectible stamps with the markers. And on the other hand they sell A LOT of stamps to collectors. So are they trying to help the hobby, or hurt it?"
Perhaps it all means you can't have it both ways ... LOL ...You are probably supposed to put the stamps you purchased from the philatelic department into your album - and not put it on an envelope and ask for a postal service in return
Joachim
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BuckaCover.com - 80,000 covers priced 60c to $1.50 - Easy browsing 500 categories
09 Feb 2016
11:10:37am
re: USPS destroying stamps.....
The USPS gets no additional revenue from stamps that are used, so has no corporate incentive to support that side of the hobby.
They want you to collect mint stamps! (or their other philatelic products).
Roy
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re: USPS destroying stamps.....
Hi,
When I post an international/national letter for philatelic cause I make sure it is hand cancelled by the postman.But I am not sure what happens when it reaches the destination.
For packets or postcard received here in India, the postal department are kind to the Philatelist as they do not make any mark on the foreign stamps.I did get international packets with stamps which are not cancelled,but our local post didn't touch the stamps else they mark the cancellation in the other side or any vacant place.
Regards
Auro
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re: USPS destroying stamps.....
Now let's be honest about this. The majority of cases where a Sharpie attack happened was on a decorated cover (a cover with several stamps, often with varying denominations, and not always in the normal location for a spray on cancel). It's not a receiving clerk that uses a Sharpie. It's someone downstream that notices that stamps used to pay for a service haven't been cancelled. Requesting a hand cancel upon submission will solve most of those problems, but you still are not guaranteed that stamps submitted to the mailstream will arrive without blemish, nor should you.
I also find that (after requesting a hand cancel) it helps to ask for a zero value PVI (which tells folks downstream that the stamps were all added up somewhere). Be sure to leave room at the top right corner of the envelope for a PVI (kinda like a meter cancel on a sticker) if you go that route. The folks at my PO are VERY helpful, but they stress how important putting the PVI in the top right corner is. I don't know if it has UV tagging or if that's just a policy, but it's the only thing they seem to be sticklers about so I am more than happy to oblige.
Lars
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re: USPS destroying stamps.....
That's good to know, Lars. Thanks.
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06:35:39pm
re: USPS destroying stamps.....
Lars I have never heard of "PVI in the top right corner". What is PVI?
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07:20:38pm
re: USPS destroying stamps.....
Hi,
PVI is Postage Validated Imprint Label.
Jacques (jlav)
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09:43:21pm
re: USPS destroying stamps.....
Thank you. I don't know if I would like that to me it would make the cover not look very pretty. But if it were the difference between that and stamps with a black marker thru them I guess I would have to settle for that label.
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re: USPS destroying stamps.....
"I don't know if I would like that to me it would make the cover not look very pretty."
Just think of it as an auxiliary marking; postal history collectors love auxiliary markings.
Ted
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05:35:14pm
re: USPS destroying stamps.....
On 'a certain other discussion forum' there is precisely the opposite discussion. they are discussing why so many stamps pass through the system completely uncancelled.
If it is legitimate to post a link to a 'competing' board, here it is: http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=67688&sid=7fefba01a3f919a2a82e420aead5825e. If I shouldn't post a link, then the moderators will remove it and replace it with a soothing image!
Why these different perceptions? Are there national or regional differences in what postal staff do or are expected to do, or are trends being imagined, one way or the other, from limited evidence?
(Modified by Moderator on 2016-02-15 00:25:15)
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APS #222602 and Internet Philatelic Dealers Association #439
11 Feb 2016
07:36:24pm
re: USPS destroying stamps.....
JPS, I did try that link, had to cut and paste the whole thing. It is from the StampBoards.com. They are chatting about what we've basically said here.
While it is nice to see what others are saying, that thread lent no real value. This is just my humble opinion. And I'll leave it for now.
Luree
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re: USPS destroying stamps.....
Both things happen.
Letter-sized mail that fits thru automated processing equipment sometimes comes thru uncancelled.
Most likely, in the USA, this is because stamped mail was passed thru the shpritz-free workstations used for metered mail ... again, most likely, simply because that was the workstation that was available at that time.
Flat-sized mail that is processed manually gets markered because that is faster & cheaper than properly cancelling each piece.
Both of these explanations focus on the cost of moving the mail.
No big mysteries, no big conspiracies, no big difference.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
12 Feb 2016
02:26:27am
re: USPS destroying stamps.....
One thing that mystifies me is that often it is an envelope from a foreign country that is defaced with a sharpie. the excuse being, is to protect revenue. I do not understand how defacing some UK stamps in Texas or Florida (Often that were cancelled in the first place.) protects revenue. Even if I were to soak them off and save them for that round the world cruise I have been planning, how would that protect USPS revenue?
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re: USPS destroying stamps.....
"... One thing that mystifies me is that often it is an envelope from a foreign country that is defaced with a sharpie. the excuse being, is to protect revenue ..."
So you would have postal management instruct the clerks to:
- pickup the letter/flat/parcel with one hand;
- determine if all of the stamps are canceled;
- if not, determine the country-of-origin of the stamps;
- if USA & uncanceled, deface the stamps while you find the address;
- read the address, and toss the item into the appropriate bin.
I have been suggesting the postal management has instructed the clerks to:
- pickup the letter/flat/parcel with one hand;
- deface the stamps while you find the address;
- read the address, and toss the item into the appropriate bin.
Q/ Which procedure is faster & cheaper?
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
13 Feb 2016
04:36:03am
re: USPS destroying stamps.....
Surely our esteemed postal clerks are intelligent enough, especially those working at the foreign mail sorting table, to be able to determine that an envelope with a mix of foreign stamps and a CUSTOM'S LABEL is affixed is not local mail even faster than scribbling all the stamps with a magic marker.
Or then, now that I think about it, probably not. Most have no idea what our local stamps are in the first place. Although, I should think Queen Elizabeth's profile might be a clue.
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06:08:32pm
re: USPS destroying stamps.....
The discussion has largely concentrated on the aesthetics of these defacements - quite legitimately. However, there is another issue that has not been aired.
If a collector is interested in postally used items and postal history, isn't the use of a sharpie, ballpoint pen, wax crayon, or whatever, by a postal employee an example of how postal items are currently handled by the relevant postal service? Shouldn't they find a place in a collection alongside all other examples of postmarking or cancelling?
I don't like stamps defaced in this way, but aren't we ignoring an aspect of postal history if we exclude them from our collections?
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re: USPS destroying stamps.....
Good point John! This practice indeed is part of postal history! The current equivalent of a 19th century pen cancel!
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re: USPS destroying stamps.....
The good news is: No Sharpie.
The bad news is: No cancellation.
The good news is: A nice clean block of 4 for my golf topical.
Ted
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re: USPS destroying stamps.....
This one bore a PVI (op cit).
Never in the course of human events have so many stamps been ruined by so few strokes ...
... okay, overdoing it, but color me
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey (who is disappointed that the sender, a long-established supplies dealer, does not have a cooperating postal clerk who will postmark their packages or, better yet, their own Mailer's Postmark Permit)
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re: USPS destroying stamps.....
A major dealer in the UK has the same problem. I've asked to be unsubscribed from their mailing lists on numerous occasions, as I'm sure their deliveries would be cancelled the same way.
"We can't do anything, it's the mail centre" doesn't cut it with me
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re: USPS destroying stamps.....
As for foreign stamps being pen-cancelled, I was told that there once was an international rule that *any* uncancelled stamp on a mail item should be cancelled by the first post office that noticed it. Hence e.g. German cancels on Hungarian stamps, or penstrokes by UK postal employees on letters from France. Not sure whether this rule still applies.
Another thing to consider: Mass frankings cause much work for the people supposed to cancel the stamps, and can be hard on the postmarking devices as well, in particular on uneven surfaces. For instance, on mail items sent during the German high inflation phase in 1923, you often see only one stroke of the dated postmark, the rest of the stamps are cancelled by pen, brush, aniline pencil, bottle stopper, blocks of wood, ...
Lastly: Isn't it the custom in North America (at least in the USA) that the dated part of the postmark should not normally be printed on the stamps, and that's why there are duplex cancellers, and in the olden days they used penstrokes and fancy cancels?
Not that it helps much, but maybe it explains some of the pictures shown above.
Martin
PS: Which countries do still use hand roller cancels? Germany I know. The USA did at least well into the 1980s. I seem to remember one from Belgium in 2015, and from Switzerland in the 2000s.
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re: USPS destroying stamps.....
When I have philatelic mail to send with a lot of stamps used as postage I just take it to the post office and have it hand cancelled. I never had a problem with this.
I have had some problems with my mail carrier using a Sharpie to mark stamps that were already cancelled. I had a conversation with him and he don't mark up my mail anymore. I found most Postal employees are accommodating.
Vince
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re: USPS destroying stamps.....
I recieved this one today. Whe I took it out of the mail box I thought niiiiice!
But then came the disapointment. Postal worker doodling on stamp. Again.
.....
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re: USPS destroying stamps.....
Ikey Pikey...Rest in peace, like so many good members we lost in the last few years.
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
06 May 2023
05:39:07pm
re: USPS destroying stamps.....
"... I found most Postal employees are accommodating. ..."
Ah, yes, most. Overwhelmingly most. But even 1% is about 5,000 soulless cretins who seem to enjoy damaging interesting stamps, covers and/or confounding collectors.
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06:31:40pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: USPS destroying stamps.....
Question:-
How many members have actually been inside a Mail Handling Centre and seen how it operates from start to finish?
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re: USPS destroying stamps.....
I have been inside the mail processing plants. In fact I worked for Canada Post and when I retired the machines could sort 30,000 letters per hour.
If you ever get to take a tour it can be a real eye opener.
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08:47:04pm
re: USPS destroying stamps.....
In my working days I was a contract manager for the Texas Attorney General. I managed the mail center contract (private vendor), that also required me to interact with the post office. I saw mail operations not only at USPS centers, but also at USPS contracted service centers like Pitney-Bowes. It is something to see and watch in operation.
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re: USPS destroying stamps.....
"That might be a technical violation of the postal manual, as it does not apply the city/date, so the next time you write your congressman ..."
It is a big violation.
In some cases dates on postmarks are very important to prove the sender has met a deadline.
How can one prove when a letter was mailed when there is no dated postmark but a crayon line instead?
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re: USPS destroying stamps.....
"In some cases dates on postmarks are very important to prove the sender has met a deadline.
How can one prove when a letter was mailed when there is no dated postmark but a crayon line instead?"
that's the best argument i've ever heard for the abolition of crayons, markers, pens, and other imprecise devices
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re: USPS destroying stamps.....
AMSD-David:
I don't know if it still holds true, to-day, as my accountabt files my tax return to Canada Revenue Agency electronically; but decades ago, when everyone mailed their tax return, it had to be postmarked no later than 30 April. The post offices would stay open later than usual, to accommodate people getting their returned postmarked.
If it was postmarked 1 May or later, you would be penalised for filing your tax return late, if you owed money.
David
Ottawa, Canada
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01:58:31pm
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re: USPS destroying stamps.....
"How can one prove when a letter was mailed when there is no dated postmark but a crayon line instead?""
If one requires proof of postage one should ask the sender to get "proof of postage" from the post office counter. If it is important to the receipient then they should ask for it to be sent "signed for".
Of course the postal services are there as a business to accept and deliver mail in an efficient and cost effective manner not to pander to a sub section of the population.
Especially when one considers the amount of Uncancelled stamps that are re-used.
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re: USPS destroying stamps.....
David Giles; still true in the States for those mailing their returns. And, as Ian notes, it would behoove an American to stand in line and wait for a free clerk, or to use an automated machine, both which can apply a date.
I suppose our Mr DeJoy would be just as happy to have no date on USPS mail as we move from aircraft to trucks and soon to those carts the Amish use.
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