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Europe/Other : Netherlands Scott 117 with inverted overprint

 

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BobbyBarnhart
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin

07 Jan 2016
01:01:36pm
I discovered a Netherlands Scott 117 with an inverted overprint in an old collection I purchased. Scott makes no mention of inverted overprints. Is this because they are so common that it is not worth mentioning? Or is this a recognized variety in a specialized catalog somewhere?

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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. -Edmund Burke"

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khj
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07 Jan 2016
01:51:32pm
re: Netherlands Scott 117 with inverted overprint

There is no mention of inverted surcharge in either my 2007 Scott Classic nor my 2001 NVPH.

The surcharge is supposed to be in blue. I cannot confirm that from your picture. If it is not in blue, then it is a forgery.

I am not familiar with the Dutch postmark date convention. But it looks like the postmark pre-dates(?) the 1923 surcharges.

If both of the above apply, I would check to see if the surcharge ink is above or below the cancel ink.

But based on what I see so far, it is likely a forgery? I defer to your re-examination of the stamp and comments by other members.

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michael78651
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Moderator, MT Member

07 Jan 2016
02:01:47pm
re: Netherlands Scott 117 with inverted overprint

I am suspicious of this too. Michel only mentions that there are fakes out there.

The surcharges are usually nice and dark as I believe they were all printed. This one looks like it is handstamped, and at a slight angle as well. One tell-tale sign of a forgery is that a cancel will be applied to help cover up the deficiencies between the forgery and the authentic item.

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"Author: Seasons of Fantasies and Dreams, The Whitechapel Fog"

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BobbyBarnhart
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin

07 Jan 2016
02:21:42pm
re: Netherlands Scott 117 with inverted overprint

It is blue, but it does appear to be from an under inked hand stamp. I agree that the date stamp appears to be "(19)12" (some 11 years prior to the issue) but I could be reading it wrong. The strange thing is that the cancel appears to be on top of the overprint. The overprint itself is an excellent copy of the one illustrated in Scott's, but I think if there had been an inverted error it would have been discovered during the past 90 years. Since no other catalogs mention such, I will chalk it up as a forgery and keep it as a curiosity.

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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. -Edmund Burke"

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michael78651
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Moderator, MT Member

07 Jan 2016
05:41:18pm
re: Netherlands Scott 117 with inverted overprint

Bobby, it's a strange surcharge, and if a forgery, I would expect to see the forged cancel over it just like it is. Usually the surcharge is stronger than what your stamp shows. Maybe someone else will know more about these, like jansimon (home country!).

Just FYI, surcharge is the correct term. It's not an overprint.

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"Author: Seasons of Fantasies and Dreams, The Whitechapel Fog"

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Jansimon
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collector, seller, MT member

07 Jan 2016
07:01:39pm

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re: Netherlands Scott 117 with inverted overprint

I am pretty sure this is a forgery. Or a fake actually, because there is no actual upside down overprint of this stamp known. What has already been remarked I can only confirm: the cancel seems to read 5.4.12 which is too early for this overprint. The strange thing to this one is that even the date cancel looks suspicious. So you may find that the upside down overprint is under the date cancel (I doubt it, but please check), but the date cancel might be fake as well.
This 1 cent red is one of the most printed stamps of the Netherlands (2.2 billion made!) so to say it is easily available and quite worthless is an understatement :-) Perfect material for some smart person to play around with.
It is a pity I do not have access to my catalogues right now...

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www.etsy.com/nl/shop/itsallmadeofpaper/
AntoniusRa
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The truth is within and only you can reveal it

07 Jan 2016
07:16:17pm
re: Netherlands Scott 117 with inverted overprint

I would also conclude it is a fake. All of mine have nice solid overprints and this one is very poor.

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mitch.seymourfamily.com/mward/collection/mapindex.html
BobbyBarnhart
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin

07 Jan 2016
08:35:20pm
re: Netherlands Scott 117 with inverted overprint

From the discussion, I am satisfied with the "fake" conclusion. What amazes me is that someone would go to so much trouble and not think to include a date which would fit the issue! Maybe a collector who tried to fool a friend as a joke? Regardless, it is a cool conversation piece, and it cost me next to nothing (maybe $0.001- that is nothing's neighbor).

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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. -Edmund Burke"

www.bobbybarnhart.net
michael78651
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Moderator, MT Member

07 Jan 2016
11:46:44pm
re: Netherlands Scott 117 with inverted overprint

With the stamp's low value, it could have been a practice run for the forger before trying to get away with doing the same on an valuable stamp. Nobody ever said that those people are the sharpest knives in the box. Most do after all get caught, and then have a few years to worry about dropping the bar of soap.

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"Author: Seasons of Fantasies and Dreams, The Whitechapel Fog"

www.hipstamp.com/store/the-online-stamp-shop
simothecat

08 Jan 2016
11:55:48am
re: Netherlands Scott 117 with inverted overprint

My book on Netherlands forgeries (by v.d. Loo) doesn't mention any forgeries of the 2 cent overprint.

It does, however, give a couple of forgeries of the corresponding 10 cent overprint in the same series. These differ in small details from the genuine. Could you post a better scan, so I can compare it to a genuine overprint?

With regards to the 10 cent overprint, v.d. Loo says that if it is inverted then it is always a forgery.

Apparently these forgeries were made for the packet trade. If they didn't have enough of a cheap overprinted stamp, they just made some more.

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Author/Postings

They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
07 Jan 2016
01:01:36pm

I discovered a Netherlands Scott 117 with an inverted overprint in an old collection I purchased. Scott makes no mention of inverted overprints. Is this because they are so common that it is not worth mentioning? Or is this a recognized variety in a specialized catalog somewhere?

Image Not Found

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this post

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. -Edmund Burke"

www.bobbybarnhart.ne ...
Members Picture
khj

07 Jan 2016
01:51:32pm

re: Netherlands Scott 117 with inverted overprint

There is no mention of inverted surcharge in either my 2007 Scott Classic nor my 2001 NVPH.

The surcharge is supposed to be in blue. I cannot confirm that from your picture. If it is not in blue, then it is a forgery.

I am not familiar with the Dutch postmark date convention. But it looks like the postmark pre-dates(?) the 1923 surcharges.

If both of the above apply, I would check to see if the surcharge ink is above or below the cancel ink.

But based on what I see so far, it is likely a forgery? I defer to your re-examination of the stamp and comments by other members.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
michael78651

Moderator, MT Member
07 Jan 2016
02:01:47pm

re: Netherlands Scott 117 with inverted overprint

I am suspicious of this too. Michel only mentions that there are fakes out there.

The surcharges are usually nice and dark as I believe they were all printed. This one looks like it is handstamped, and at a slight angle as well. One tell-tale sign of a forgery is that a cancel will be applied to help cover up the deficiencies between the forgery and the authentic item.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Author: Seasons of Fantasies and Dreams, The Whitechapel Fog"

www.hipstamp.com/sto ...

They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
07 Jan 2016
02:21:42pm

re: Netherlands Scott 117 with inverted overprint

It is blue, but it does appear to be from an under inked hand stamp. I agree that the date stamp appears to be "(19)12" (some 11 years prior to the issue) but I could be reading it wrong. The strange thing is that the cancel appears to be on top of the overprint. The overprint itself is an excellent copy of the one illustrated in Scott's, but I think if there had been an inverted error it would have been discovered during the past 90 years. Since no other catalogs mention such, I will chalk it up as a forgery and keep it as a curiosity.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. -Edmund Burke"

www.bobbybarnhart.ne ...
Members Picture
michael78651

Moderator, MT Member
07 Jan 2016
05:41:18pm

re: Netherlands Scott 117 with inverted overprint

Bobby, it's a strange surcharge, and if a forgery, I would expect to see the forged cancel over it just like it is. Usually the surcharge is stronger than what your stamp shows. Maybe someone else will know more about these, like jansimon (home country!).

Just FYI, surcharge is the correct term. It's not an overprint.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Author: Seasons of Fantasies and Dreams, The Whitechapel Fog"

www.hipstamp.com/sto ...
Members Picture
Jansimon

collector, seller, MT member
07 Jan 2016
07:01:39pm

Approvals

re: Netherlands Scott 117 with inverted overprint

I am pretty sure this is a forgery. Or a fake actually, because there is no actual upside down overprint of this stamp known. What has already been remarked I can only confirm: the cancel seems to read 5.4.12 which is too early for this overprint. The strange thing to this one is that even the date cancel looks suspicious. So you may find that the upside down overprint is under the date cancel (I doubt it, but please check), but the date cancel might be fake as well.
This 1 cent red is one of the most printed stamps of the Netherlands (2.2 billion made!) so to say it is easily available and quite worthless is an understatement :-) Perfect material for some smart person to play around with.
It is a pity I do not have access to my catalogues right now...

Like
Login to Like
this post

www.etsy.com/nl/shop ...
Members Picture
AntoniusRa

The truth is within and only you can reveal it
07 Jan 2016
07:16:17pm

re: Netherlands Scott 117 with inverted overprint

I would also conclude it is a fake. All of mine have nice solid overprints and this one is very poor.

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mitch.seymourfamily. ...

They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
07 Jan 2016
08:35:20pm

re: Netherlands Scott 117 with inverted overprint

From the discussion, I am satisfied with the "fake" conclusion. What amazes me is that someone would go to so much trouble and not think to include a date which would fit the issue! Maybe a collector who tried to fool a friend as a joke? Regardless, it is a cool conversation piece, and it cost me next to nothing (maybe $0.001- that is nothing's neighbor).

Like
Login to Like
this post

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. -Edmund Burke"

www.bobbybarnhart.ne ...
Members Picture
michael78651

Moderator, MT Member
07 Jan 2016
11:46:44pm

re: Netherlands Scott 117 with inverted overprint

With the stamp's low value, it could have been a practice run for the forger before trying to get away with doing the same on an valuable stamp. Nobody ever said that those people are the sharpest knives in the box. Most do after all get caught, and then have a few years to worry about dropping the bar of soap.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Author: Seasons of Fantasies and Dreams, The Whitechapel Fog"

www.hipstamp.com/sto ...
simothecat

08 Jan 2016
11:55:48am

re: Netherlands Scott 117 with inverted overprint

My book on Netherlands forgeries (by v.d. Loo) doesn't mention any forgeries of the 2 cent overprint.

It does, however, give a couple of forgeries of the corresponding 10 cent overprint in the same series. These differ in small details from the genuine. Could you post a better scan, so I can compare it to a genuine overprint?

With regards to the 10 cent overprint, v.d. Loo says that if it is inverted then it is always a forgery.

Apparently these forgeries were made for the packet trade. If they didn't have enough of a cheap overprinted stamp, they just made some more.

Like
Login to Like
this post
        

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