Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Hoping someone here at SOR can shed some light on the stories behind these two?
Many thanks!
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Hi Everyone;
@ csheer;
The one on the right is called a seal, used by the post office clerks, when an envelope
gets torn or they opened for inspection. It was applied to show that the envelope was
re-sealed by the Post Office Dept.
The one on left is a charity label tolerated by postal officials when applied to the back
of the envelope. this one is canceled, so may have been mistakenly applied to the front.
They were probably used to raise funds for Tuberculosis or other lung disease research.
Keep on stampin'....
TuskenRaider
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Post office seals are listed in the Scott United States Specialized Catalog ("OX" prefix).
The charity label is more global in nature than just the usual lung diseases as it is for overall "child welfare". It looks like it is from Peru. While Scott lists postal tax stamps, this one would not be listed as it was not required to be used in addition to postage. It is a voluntary charity label.
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Thank you both for your prompt and informative responses!
Charlotte
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"officially sealed" is not a cinderella - but it might be considered both "back of the book" and an "official" but more than likely just a "label."
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"it might be considered both "back of the book" and an "official""
It's definitely "back of the book", and I personally would not call it a Cinderella, but it's not an "official". I think "official" is for "O" prefix stamps that were valid for use as Official postage. "OX" prefix stamps were used exclusively by the post office department to seal things, like envelopes that had been torn open in transit.
Lars
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""officially sealed" is not a cinderella "
Try telling that to a Cinderella collector !!
I collect these, a very interesting Cinderella subject.
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Wikipedia defines cinderella thus:
"In philately, a cinderella stamp is 'virtually anything resembling a postage stamp, but not issued for postal purposes by a government postal administration."
Since "officially sealed" labels were issued for postal purposes, I don't see how they could be considered a cinderella. Here are two classic officially sealed labels, one from Newfoundland and the other from Canada:
Bob
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Hi Bob, the Wikipedia definition doesn't seem that helpful.
After all, airmail etiquettes are issued for postal purposes and they seem to me to be very much cinderella items.
I wonder how telegraph stamp collectors consider telegraph seals?
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Hi Everyone;
@ bobstamp;
Thanks for the images of the official seal stamps. That portrait of Queen Victoria reminds
me of my Grandma Knupenbuger. I often wonder what she was like as a person and not
just as a Queen.
I know that she mourned Prince Albert's death for the rest of her life, so she must have
been a warm hearted and loving person. She sure had a huge influence on the world. I
saw that identical portrait of her in a pub in the Seychelles Islands in 1967 when in the
US Navy. However her persona as a queen may be very different from the real person.
Just wonderin' tho....
TuskenRaider
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I've been wanting to read a few biographies about Vicky, but haven't done it yet.
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I think it's pretty common knowledge that the definition of "Cinderella" varies greatly from person to person. That's why I said "I personally would not call it a Cinderella" recognizing that there are others that have broader definitions. To me that's one of the more interesting aspects of Cinderellas - the flexibility to define your Universe on your own terms. I know you can do that for any kind of collection, but there seems to be more grey area to play with in Cinderellas than Definitives or Commemoratives.
I have a narrow definition of Cinderellas, but that doesn't mean it's somehow better than a broader interpretation.
As far as airmail etiquettes are concerned, that's an interesting point because many etiquettes were produced by third parties, which would make them Cinderellas by the Wiki definition but the ones produced by the Post Office would not be, and that doesn't seem to make much sense. I personally consider Airmail Etiquettes as Cinderellas, even those produced by the Post Office.
Lars
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Is it true that FDCovers made by collectors are called Cinderellas? Are they of any value other tham to the collector? I have many Canadian covers with pictorial town postmarks(that I have sent and received from postmasters) Are they called Cinderellas?
Cheryl
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I have never heard of any FDCs referred to as Cinderellas. I have recently been working on a web page about the occupation of the Channel Islands during the Second World War. FDC's from that period are common, even though the only regular mail service that the Germans allowed the islanders was local. It's assumed that many of the FDCs were favour cancelled and never passed through a mail stream. In my opinion, even if they are philatelic, they nevertheless are artifacts that help to show one aspect of life in the islands during the war.
Here's an example of a cover from Guernsey which is, I suspect, philatelic and perhaps favour cancelled, although the strike is poor. For me, it serves as a nice illustration of a small subterfuge perpetrated on the Germans — the stamp, designed by a Guernseyman at the request of the Germans, and the cachet in this case, are based on the Arms of the Channel Islands, which are based on the personal arms of all English monarchs from Henry VIII through QEII. The Germans, in allowing the occupation stamps to be issued, apparently weren't aware of the English provenance of the Arms.
Are collector-created FDCs valuable? Very valuable to some collectors, not at all to others. Beauty — and value — are in the eye of the beholder. I have several FDCs from a number of countries in my collection, and all of them serve a purpose. Some have been quite costly.
Bob
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Bob,
Interesting that your FDC issue date is precisely 1 year before the death of FDR. Just one of those things a history junkie might pick up on!
Lars
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Cheryl,
I agree with Bob, but I'm not an FDC expert. I have a couple of covers that I would not part with for hundreds of dollars, but if I died they would yield much less on the open market:
These were created by an established cachet creator and professional artist, Dave Bennett, but the subject matter is a fund-raiser that only a handful of folks were involved in, so the demand for these items would not be very great. Besides, the second cover isn't even a FDC! But these are VERY special to me.
Similarly with this item:
I really don't know if this cover has any real philatelic value, but this cover means a lot to me. It's not only a FDC, but it was actually placed into the mailstream on the first day of issue and carried the Valentine's Day Commemorative cover in the previous image.
I will end with two more images:
This is the front and back of an album page I prepared to receive First Day postmarks for every Lincoln stamp from the Centennial to the Bicentennial of his birth. It was a lot of fun to put together, likely unique, and probably not worth a lot of money.
The point is, I doubt I would refer to ANY of that as Cinderellas. They are certainly personal items that are much more valuable to me that anyone else, but to call them Cinderellas would be a stretch for even those with a very broad definition of the term, in my opinion.
I have never heard of a cancelled postage stamp, even on the most contrived FDC, as being a Cinderella.
Hope that helps.
Lars
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Thanks guys
I have many personal FDCovers that are special to me because they were cancelled esp for me.
When I checked the Great Britain FDC stamped with the latest 4 high value castle stamps and cancelled in 1997 with the same cancel used by the Royal Mail ...it was posted as a Cinderella FDC on a website but priced at nearly $80US and out of stock....but I have one...Cheryl
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We sure are getting lots of different definitions and names.
I've never heard anyone claim an FDC as a Cinderella, unless it were franked with a Cinderella.
But, as we've seen on these pages before, there are a variety of definitions and opinions. I think it unprofitable to rehash them here.
But I must say, the airmail etiquette brings up an interesting point: excluding any label produced by a postal authority, or someone acting on their behalf from the Cinderella (or seal) nomenclature may actually muddy some waters, especially when considering air mail etiquette, which were produced by both postal authorities and private concerns.
fascinating
David
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It is interesting that some members feel that if something is produced by a Postal Authority then it is not a Cinderella.
It certainly is not true of, for instance, Royal Mail (UK) who have produced a number of fine Cinderellas and sold them over the PO Counters, not including air mail etiquettes, registration labels and a plethora of other (no value) labels produced for helping mail delivery but which have no postal validity whatsoever.
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"It is interesting that some members feel that if something is produced by a Postal Authority then it is not a Cinderella."
That was the Wikipedia definition and the example of airmail etiquettes causes me to believe that the Wiki definition is incorrect. I don't know if anyone here expressly asserted that an airmail etiquette, produced by a postal authority, is NOT a Cinderella.
Anyone? Bueller? Anyone?
There are still some areas of debate, but I would be surprised if airmail etiquettes was one of them.
Lars
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the Cinderella Club includes many postally produced labels and stamps, including fiscals, revenues, railway, as well as privat post issues, among many others: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinderella_Stamp_Club
While I wouldn't normally include many of those in MY definition, who am I to argue with the club's definition of what it studies. Which brings me back to my amazement at the broad range of differences in our definitions.
Etta Kitt
(Modified by Moderator on 2015-02-17 18:49:29)
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I'm amazed that ANYONE would consider Revenues to be Cinderellas! There is even more variability than I thought! It is an interesting area and, apparently, whatever you chose to make of it. That sounds like a recipe for fun.
Lars
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06:50:53pm
I am with you, Lars. Unless, of course, it were a revenue from the South Moluccas. 
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Thank you for all the interesting comments. I have a binder for each Canadian province which holds the special self addressed covers that postmasters have returned to me sporting the town/community pictorial cancel In turn I have added information about the village and its special motto/picture shown on its cover.Sometimes a personal note has been sent back by the postmaster....I am not sure how valuable they are to others but they are priceless to me....They may even be Cinderella covers ...
Cheryl
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AFAIK the classic definition of a cinderella is anything which is not "a label produced for the prepayment of postage charges", so it therefore includes airmail etiquettes, revenues ( unless also authorised for the prepayment of postage) etc,etc (ad infinitum).Postage dues appears to be a grey area !
Malcolm
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Malcolm, by that definition, dues wouldn't be gray at all... they'd be Cinderellas as they are post-paying, not prepaying. Of course, that's not my definition, but that's not the issue here.
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I agree, but postage dues appear in many catalogues as stamps rather than cinderellas - so while by definition cinderellas, by "Custom and Practice" not necessarily so.#
Malcolm
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It's great that the kids are starting to show interest in the Cinderellas (as opposed to "real postage stamps")that pop up from time to time amongst the Holocaust Stamps Project donations.
Hoping someone here at SOR can shed some light on the stories behind these two?
Many thanks!
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re: Mystery Cinderellas
Hi Everyone;
@ csheer;
The one on the right is called a seal, used by the post office clerks, when an envelope
gets torn or they opened for inspection. It was applied to show that the envelope was
re-sealed by the Post Office Dept.
The one on left is a charity label tolerated by postal officials when applied to the back
of the envelope. this one is canceled, so may have been mistakenly applied to the front.
They were probably used to raise funds for Tuberculosis or other lung disease research.
Keep on stampin'....
TuskenRaider
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06:09:25pm
re: Mystery Cinderellas
Post office seals are listed in the Scott United States Specialized Catalog ("OX" prefix).
The charity label is more global in nature than just the usual lung diseases as it is for overall "child welfare". It looks like it is from Peru. While Scott lists postal tax stamps, this one would not be listed as it was not required to be used in addition to postage. It is a voluntary charity label.
Login to Like
this post
re: Mystery Cinderellas
Thank you both for your prompt and informative responses!
Charlotte
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this post
re: Mystery Cinderellas
"officially sealed" is not a cinderella - but it might be considered both "back of the book" and an "official" but more than likely just a "label."
Login to Like
this post
re: Mystery Cinderellas
"it might be considered both "back of the book" and an "official""
It's definitely "back of the book", and I personally would not call it a Cinderella, but it's not an "official". I think "official" is for "O" prefix stamps that were valid for use as Official postage. "OX" prefix stamps were used exclusively by the post office department to seal things, like envelopes that had been torn open in transit.
Lars
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re: Mystery Cinderellas
""officially sealed" is not a cinderella "
Try telling that to a Cinderella collector !!
I collect these, a very interesting Cinderella subject.
Login to Like
this post
re: Mystery Cinderellas
Wikipedia defines cinderella thus:
"In philately, a cinderella stamp is 'virtually anything resembling a postage stamp, but not issued for postal purposes by a government postal administration."
Since "officially sealed" labels were issued for postal purposes, I don't see how they could be considered a cinderella. Here are two classic officially sealed labels, one from Newfoundland and the other from Canada:
Bob
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re: Mystery Cinderellas
Hi Bob, the Wikipedia definition doesn't seem that helpful.
After all, airmail etiquettes are issued for postal purposes and they seem to me to be very much cinderella items.
I wonder how telegraph stamp collectors consider telegraph seals?
Login to Like
this post
re: Mystery Cinderellas
Hi Everyone;
@ bobstamp;
Thanks for the images of the official seal stamps. That portrait of Queen Victoria reminds
me of my Grandma Knupenbuger. I often wonder what she was like as a person and not
just as a Queen.
I know that she mourned Prince Albert's death for the rest of her life, so she must have
been a warm hearted and loving person. She sure had a huge influence on the world. I
saw that identical portrait of her in a pub in the Seychelles Islands in 1967 when in the
US Navy. However her persona as a queen may be very different from the real person.
Just wonderin' tho....
TuskenRaider
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Dogs are my favorite people. I hang with this one as often as I can.
15 Feb 2015
03:41:35pm
re: Mystery Cinderellas
I've been wanting to read a few biographies about Vicky, but haven't done it yet.
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re: Mystery Cinderellas
I think it's pretty common knowledge that the definition of "Cinderella" varies greatly from person to person. That's why I said "I personally would not call it a Cinderella" recognizing that there are others that have broader definitions. To me that's one of the more interesting aspects of Cinderellas - the flexibility to define your Universe on your own terms. I know you can do that for any kind of collection, but there seems to be more grey area to play with in Cinderellas than Definitives or Commemoratives.
I have a narrow definition of Cinderellas, but that doesn't mean it's somehow better than a broader interpretation.
As far as airmail etiquettes are concerned, that's an interesting point because many etiquettes were produced by third parties, which would make them Cinderellas by the Wiki definition but the ones produced by the Post Office would not be, and that doesn't seem to make much sense. I personally consider Airmail Etiquettes as Cinderellas, even those produced by the Post Office.
Lars
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08:07:49pm
re: Mystery Cinderellas
Is it true that FDCovers made by collectors are called Cinderellas? Are they of any value other tham to the collector? I have many Canadian covers with pictorial town postmarks(that I have sent and received from postmasters) Are they called Cinderellas?
Cheryl
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this post
re: Mystery Cinderellas
I have never heard of any FDCs referred to as Cinderellas. I have recently been working on a web page about the occupation of the Channel Islands during the Second World War. FDC's from that period are common, even though the only regular mail service that the Germans allowed the islanders was local. It's assumed that many of the FDCs were favour cancelled and never passed through a mail stream. In my opinion, even if they are philatelic, they nevertheless are artifacts that help to show one aspect of life in the islands during the war.
Here's an example of a cover from Guernsey which is, I suspect, philatelic and perhaps favour cancelled, although the strike is poor. For me, it serves as a nice illustration of a small subterfuge perpetrated on the Germans — the stamp, designed by a Guernseyman at the request of the Germans, and the cachet in this case, are based on the Arms of the Channel Islands, which are based on the personal arms of all English monarchs from Henry VIII through QEII. The Germans, in allowing the occupation stamps to be issued, apparently weren't aware of the English provenance of the Arms.
Are collector-created FDCs valuable? Very valuable to some collectors, not at all to others. Beauty — and value — are in the eye of the beholder. I have several FDCs from a number of countries in my collection, and all of them serve a purpose. Some have been quite costly.
Bob
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re: Mystery Cinderellas
Bob,
Interesting that your FDC issue date is precisely 1 year before the death of FDR. Just one of those things a history junkie might pick up on!
Lars
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re: Mystery Cinderellas
Cheryl,
I agree with Bob, but I'm not an FDC expert. I have a couple of covers that I would not part with for hundreds of dollars, but if I died they would yield much less on the open market:
These were created by an established cachet creator and professional artist, Dave Bennett, but the subject matter is a fund-raiser that only a handful of folks were involved in, so the demand for these items would not be very great. Besides, the second cover isn't even a FDC! But these are VERY special to me.
Similarly with this item:
I really don't know if this cover has any real philatelic value, but this cover means a lot to me. It's not only a FDC, but it was actually placed into the mailstream on the first day of issue and carried the Valentine's Day Commemorative cover in the previous image.
I will end with two more images:
This is the front and back of an album page I prepared to receive First Day postmarks for every Lincoln stamp from the Centennial to the Bicentennial of his birth. It was a lot of fun to put together, likely unique, and probably not worth a lot of money.
The point is, I doubt I would refer to ANY of that as Cinderellas. They are certainly personal items that are much more valuable to me that anyone else, but to call them Cinderellas would be a stretch for even those with a very broad definition of the term, in my opinion.
I have never heard of a cancelled postage stamp, even on the most contrived FDC, as being a Cinderella.
Hope that helps.
Lars
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11:07:18am
re: Mystery Cinderellas
Thanks guys
I have many personal FDCovers that are special to me because they were cancelled esp for me.
When I checked the Great Britain FDC stamped with the latest 4 high value castle stamps and cancelled in 1997 with the same cancel used by the Royal Mail ...it was posted as a Cinderella FDC on a website but priced at nearly $80US and out of stock....but I have one...Cheryl
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this post
re: Mystery Cinderellas
We sure are getting lots of different definitions and names.
I've never heard anyone claim an FDC as a Cinderella, unless it were franked with a Cinderella.
But, as we've seen on these pages before, there are a variety of definitions and opinions. I think it unprofitable to rehash them here.
But I must say, the airmail etiquette brings up an interesting point: excluding any label produced by a postal authority, or someone acting on their behalf from the Cinderella (or seal) nomenclature may actually muddy some waters, especially when considering air mail etiquette, which were produced by both postal authorities and private concerns.
fascinating
David
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re: Mystery Cinderellas
It is interesting that some members feel that if something is produced by a Postal Authority then it is not a Cinderella.
It certainly is not true of, for instance, Royal Mail (UK) who have produced a number of fine Cinderellas and sold them over the PO Counters, not including air mail etiquettes, registration labels and a plethora of other (no value) labels produced for helping mail delivery but which have no postal validity whatsoever.
Login to Like
this post
re: Mystery Cinderellas
"It is interesting that some members feel that if something is produced by a Postal Authority then it is not a Cinderella."
That was the Wikipedia definition and the example of airmail etiquettes causes me to believe that the Wiki definition is incorrect. I don't know if anyone here expressly asserted that an airmail etiquette, produced by a postal authority, is NOT a Cinderella.
Anyone? Bueller? Anyone?
There are still some areas of debate, but I would be surprised if airmail etiquettes was one of them.
Lars
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this post
re: Mystery Cinderellas
the Cinderella Club includes many postally produced labels and stamps, including fiscals, revenues, railway, as well as privat post issues, among many others: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinderella_Stamp_Club
While I wouldn't normally include many of those in MY definition, who am I to argue with the club's definition of what it studies. Which brings me back to my amazement at the broad range of differences in our definitions.
Etta Kitt
(Modified by Moderator on 2015-02-17 18:49:29)
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re: Mystery Cinderellas
I'm amazed that ANYONE would consider Revenues to be Cinderellas! There is even more variability than I thought! It is an interesting area and, apparently, whatever you chose to make of it. That sounds like a recipe for fun.
Lars
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
17 Feb 2015
06:50:53pm
re: Mystery Cinderellas
I am with you, Lars. Unless, of course, it were a revenue from the South Moluccas.
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10:16:46pm
re: Mystery Cinderellas
Thank you for all the interesting comments. I have a binder for each Canadian province which holds the special self addressed covers that postmasters have returned to me sporting the town/community pictorial cancel In turn I have added information about the village and its special motto/picture shown on its cover.Sometimes a personal note has been sent back by the postmaster....I am not sure how valuable they are to others but they are priceless to me....They may even be Cinderella covers ...
Cheryl
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07:02:52am
re: Mystery Cinderellas
AFAIK the classic definition of a cinderella is anything which is not "a label produced for the prepayment of postage charges", so it therefore includes airmail etiquettes, revenues ( unless also authorised for the prepayment of postage) etc,etc (ad infinitum).Postage dues appears to be a grey area !
Malcolm
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re: Mystery Cinderellas
Malcolm, by that definition, dues wouldn't be gray at all... they'd be Cinderellas as they are post-paying, not prepaying. Of course, that's not my definition, but that's not the issue here.
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07:07:16am
re: Mystery Cinderellas
I agree, but postage dues appear in many catalogues as stamps rather than cinderellas - so while by definition cinderellas, by "Custom and Practice" not necessarily so.#
Malcolm
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