Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
12:48:31pm
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04:22:46pm
I was just doing a small bit of very minor research and the 5th cover seems to be the same John W. Scott who was originally responsible for Scott's Catalog. Does anyone know for sure if this is correct?
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We talked about this cover before on this Stamporama thread:
https://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_ma ...
I think there are a bunch of these covers in existence. Besides the one I have in my collection, I have also seen them in boxes of covers at stamp shows.
Linus
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05:09:39pm
Thanks Gary!
I also like the fact that the majority of the covers were sent to Ontario.
I will never turn into an ardent cover collector but I do have several interesting ones.
I have an old stampless cover send by packet from Pictou Nova Scotia to Sanquehar Scotland in 1853 with a Liverpool England Tombstone cancellation that is one of my very favouite pieces. It's not worth much in the condition it's in but the history is what's important. I'll get a friend to do a scan for me.
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That cover is from John W. Scott, the creator of The Scott Catalogue.
Here is a page of information on Scott and his Junior Weekly Letter I copied from The APS website.
https://classic.stamps.org/HOF-1941#Scot ...
John Walter Scott
(November 2, 1845 – January 4, 1919) New York City
Scott was called “The Father of American Philately” in his lifetime. His first interest in stamp dealing began around 1860 in his native London. It continued in 1863 when he came to New York City. In 1865 he went to California seeking gold but had no success. He returned to New York City in 1867 and resumed his stamp business.
During the next two decades he became America's leading stamp dealer. In 1868, he began publishing the American Journal of Philately, the first important stamp journal in the U.S. That same year he helped support the first U.S. stamp club, the New York Philatelic Society (the second in the world).
From June 1867 to August 1868, Scott issued fifteen monthly one-page price lists. In September 1868, he issued his first catalog: A Descriptive Catalogue of America and Foreign Postage Stamps, Issued from 1840 to Date. This was the first "Scott Catalog", although Scott counted his first fifteen one-page lists and called the September 1868 issue as his "Sixteenth Edition". Scott's Catalog soon became the most important catalog in the United States.
On May 28, 1870, in New York City, Scott organized the first stamp auction ever held. Two years later he opened a branch in London and organized his fifth auction there. The sale, held March 18, 1872, was the first stamp auction held in Europe. In 1882, for his 42nd sale, he sold (for ten cents) a photographic plate of some of the most valuable stamps in the sale. It was the first time an auction catalog contained photographic illustrations.
In December 1885 Scott sold his name, his catalog and his stock to the Calman brothers, who renamed it the Scott Stamp and Coin Company. Scott remained a minority partner in the business, and continued to edit the catalogs and new journal, The American Journal of Philately (Second Series) until 1889. At that time he sold his interest to the brothers and re-entered the stamp business as J.W. Scott and Co., Ltd.
The Calman brothers sued Scott for using the name “Scott,” and after a celebrated legal battle, the New York Superior Court ruled that he had a legal right to use his own name in his business. Scott quickly rebuilt his reputation as a leading stamp dealer and auctioneer. He published and edited the important journal, The Metropolitan Philatelist, from 1890 to 1915.
On September 25, 1895, Scott issued his first J.W. Scott & Co., Ltd. Weekly News Letter, a folio-sized single-sheet described as "a private and confidential communication to the 100 leading amateurs of America." This first philatelic "insider newsletter" continued until May 1, 1897.
Scott also issued during 1897 a more widely distributed weekly, John W. Scott's Junior Weekly Letter, later called John W. Scott's Weekly Bulletin.
Scott was an organizer of the first important philatelic exhibition in the U.S. This took place in 1889 at the Eden Musée in New York City; Scott wrote the catalog and was the major exhibitor. He was an active supporter of stamp clubs in Brooklyn, Manhattan and Staten Island. Scott permanently retired as a stamp dealer in 1917, after seeing his business become the most successful in the U.S. He held 120 stamp auctions, including the first one held anywhere, the first auction catalog with illustrations, and the first auction to sell a stamp at above $1000.
He was a founding member of the Collectors Club of New York (1896), serving in many positions, including president in 1910. He catalogued its philatelic library (Catalogue of the Philatelic Library of the Collectors Club (1917)). He was also a member of the American Philatelic Association (now the APS), holding many positions, including Trustee. He was the APS President (1917-1919) when he died.
In an 1890 poll by The Philatelist (NY) (Vol. 2, No. 4, June 16, 1890), Scott was named “The most prominent philatelist,” winning over John K. Tiffany in a “glorious victory for the ‘Great and only Scott’.”
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Nice covers, you certainly got your money worth!
US cover collectors like foreign destination covers. And note the one from Duncan Dak is a territorial cover.. Dakota Territory before it became North and South Dakota
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And Duncan (SD) is a DPO (1883 to 1913) with a Helbock scarcity rating of 4.
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10:29:11pm
"And Duncan (SD) is a DPO (1883 to 1913) with a Helbock scarcity rating of 4."
Not being a collector of covers could someone explain this to me, especially the "Helbock scarcity rating of 4". Is that good or bad?
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Sorry Harvey,
I should have explained. Richard Helbock was a prolific author writing about US postal history. One of his early efforts was complete listings of all known post offices (even those only in existence for a few years) in series of pocket pamphlets published by state. This eventually morphed into an 8 volume set by geographic area complete with rarity factors from 1 (common) to 9 (scarce).
In valuing you have to realize that most people collect by state and county There are counties with a lot of active collectors where even relatively common discontinued post offices (DPO's) sell for 3 or 4 dollars and scarcities for $100 to sky is the limit to counties which only one or two collectors exist (or none - in which case even a one of only one in existence cover is rendered pretty valueless).
Helbocks rarity factor of 4 is listed as $15 to $25 cover. Being a territorial cover adds somewhat to the value.
Helbock wrote dozens of other books on things such as RPO cancels, Doane cancels, Military cancels, etc. Enter "Helbock" into the Ebay search (use quote marks to eliminate close searches) and there are 560 listings shown which will give you some idea of the magnitude of his work.
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08:04:53am
Thanks, I get it now! I collect the post offices for the county (Queen's) in Nova Scotia. There are a few of us doing this, Cheryl is one as well, and there are some that are very difficult to find. I have been stuck at 32 / 47 for quite a while now. If I remember right Cheryl Grantham has a complete set. There is a book on Nova Scotia post offices and even the book is a bit rare. There are also books on some of the Counties but the person died before the province was finished. The book on the post offices of Halifax County has huge amounts of detail and has about 400 pages, not including the cities of Halifax and Dartmouth, which he meant to do later. Actually the house next to mine in Black Point held the local PO and this book lists the postal clerks and addresses of each post office. It's great to see Flora and Murray Lohnes, my old neighbours, preserved in a book! Of course many of the post offices no longer exist and some were in existence for a short time. So I understand the concept, just not the terminology used!
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I collect 7 areas of US postal history and if I bought random lots of covers just to get what I needed for my collections my house would look like one of those hoarder houses.
I collect:
US Auxiliary Markings
US Machine Cancels
US Expo Cancels
US Meters by type
Minnesota Postal History
National Air Mail Week covers and cachets from Minnesota
Canal Zone Postal History
Not to mention my worldwide cover collection, one from each postal authority . . .
Jammu and Kashmir cover
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12:39:46pm
I really like the Stillwater rosette!! I'm starting to get a nice collection of fancy cancels and that one is really "cool"! Thanks for showing!!
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02:17:29pm
Did a little bit of a Google search and had a bit of trouble finding the town of Duncan in either North or South Dakota. Does it still exist as a town as such and can anyone show it's location on a map. It's possible that the Dakota Territory actually contained parts of what are now other states. Just curious!
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Harvey,
The best resource on the internet for US post offices is Jim Forte's US Post Offices lookup page.
A search for Duncan in South Dakota yields the following:
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This website gives the location of Duncan though the map is not all that helpful.
https://www.anyplaceamerica.com/director ...
Apparently Duncan was famous for its Church.
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03:08:44pm
Interesting! Several of my attempts to Google Duncan came up with Duncan Church. Now I know why! Thanks for the information!!
I bookmarked your link to US post offices. Does anyone know if a similar site exists for Canada? That would be amazingly useful!!
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"Does anyone know if a similar site exists for Canada? That would be amazingly useful!!"
Personally I think this is something that BNAPS (The British North America Philatelic Society) should feature on their website.
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Interesting conversation.
I collect New Jersey, and I currently have 1024 of the 2222 listings on my spread sheet. It's getting difficult to add anything anymore. Just about when I'm ready to give up, I'll come across a postmark on eBay for a post office that was in existence in the 1860s for less than ten years!
I started out with the Kay & Smith "New Jersey Postal History", merged with the USPS zip code directory, a few other sources and rolling changes I discover as I collect and post office changes as they occur. This book was published in 1977 and I believe the gentlemen are dead so it's never been updated. I also have their book for Pennsylvania, but decline to start another collection, especially since PA is several times the size of NJ!
I haven't looked at the Helbock scarcity factors of 1-10 but on my spread sheet I have the years founded and ended for offices, with the number of years in operation shown. Offices that are current are a formula that keeps updating with time.
There are no doubt post offices where no examples of the postmark exists. So I'm aware I will never 100% complete my collection. But things change all the time as old collections or correspondence hoards are uncovered. For instance, a while back I bought a box of 300 postal cards all addressed to the Chicago Telephone Equipment Company between 1910-20. That's the box I found the New York City Pneumatic Tube stamped card. This was a box that had been practically untouched for 100 years! And that's where very scarce postmarks can appear.
And in other hoards I find a chain of correspondence between two families. And suddenly a dozen of a previously unseen postmark comes to light. So never say never. And it doesn't have to be ancient. For Monmouth County NJ I had never seen the "Alfred Vail" Rural Branch / Station / Branch. And suddenly there was one from 1955 on eBay, so I grabbed it. It was on a greeting card size envelope. I wrote the seller and he had two more from that same pair of correspondents. Now I have all three. Who knows if any more exist?
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06:13:14pm
I had a friend make a copy of my unstamped cover I mentioned above. She didn't do a great job but it's OK. The letter went by packet ( Cunard Line "America") from Pictou N.S. to Sanquhar, Scotland with post marks added in Halifax and a tombstone postmark from Liverpool, England. It's not in great shape but I like it anyway! Date: Jan 17, 1853
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
07 Feb 2024
12:48:31pm
I'm not a huge collector of US covers but my long time dealer offered these as a storm day special for $15 CD which seemed like a great price to me. I grabbed them for my collection of misc. US covers. Some I think are quite interesting!!
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
07 Feb 2024
04:22:46pm
re: lot of US covers for $15
I was just doing a small bit of very minor research and the 5th cover seems to be the same John W. Scott who was originally responsible for Scott's Catalog. Does anyone know for sure if this is correct?
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this post
re: lot of US covers for $15
We talked about this cover before on this Stamporama thread:
https://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_ma ...
I think there are a bunch of these covers in existence. Besides the one I have in my collection, I have also seen them in boxes of covers at stamp shows.
Linus
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this post
This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
07 Feb 2024
05:09:39pm
re: lot of US covers for $15
Thanks Gary!
I also like the fact that the majority of the covers were sent to Ontario.
I will never turn into an ardent cover collector but I do have several interesting ones.
I have an old stampless cover send by packet from Pictou Nova Scotia to Sanquehar Scotland in 1853 with a Liverpool England Tombstone cancellation that is one of my very favouite pieces. It's not worth much in the condition it's in but the history is what's important. I'll get a friend to do a scan for me.
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re: lot of US covers for $15
That cover is from John W. Scott, the creator of The Scott Catalogue.
Here is a page of information on Scott and his Junior Weekly Letter I copied from The APS website.
https://classic.stamps.org/HOF-1941#Scot ...
John Walter Scott
(November 2, 1845 – January 4, 1919) New York City
Scott was called “The Father of American Philately” in his lifetime. His first interest in stamp dealing began around 1860 in his native London. It continued in 1863 when he came to New York City. In 1865 he went to California seeking gold but had no success. He returned to New York City in 1867 and resumed his stamp business.
During the next two decades he became America's leading stamp dealer. In 1868, he began publishing the American Journal of Philately, the first important stamp journal in the U.S. That same year he helped support the first U.S. stamp club, the New York Philatelic Society (the second in the world).
From June 1867 to August 1868, Scott issued fifteen monthly one-page price lists. In September 1868, he issued his first catalog: A Descriptive Catalogue of America and Foreign Postage Stamps, Issued from 1840 to Date. This was the first "Scott Catalog", although Scott counted his first fifteen one-page lists and called the September 1868 issue as his "Sixteenth Edition". Scott's Catalog soon became the most important catalog in the United States.
On May 28, 1870, in New York City, Scott organized the first stamp auction ever held. Two years later he opened a branch in London and organized his fifth auction there. The sale, held March 18, 1872, was the first stamp auction held in Europe. In 1882, for his 42nd sale, he sold (for ten cents) a photographic plate of some of the most valuable stamps in the sale. It was the first time an auction catalog contained photographic illustrations.
In December 1885 Scott sold his name, his catalog and his stock to the Calman brothers, who renamed it the Scott Stamp and Coin Company. Scott remained a minority partner in the business, and continued to edit the catalogs and new journal, The American Journal of Philately (Second Series) until 1889. At that time he sold his interest to the brothers and re-entered the stamp business as J.W. Scott and Co., Ltd.
The Calman brothers sued Scott for using the name “Scott,” and after a celebrated legal battle, the New York Superior Court ruled that he had a legal right to use his own name in his business. Scott quickly rebuilt his reputation as a leading stamp dealer and auctioneer. He published and edited the important journal, The Metropolitan Philatelist, from 1890 to 1915.
On September 25, 1895, Scott issued his first J.W. Scott & Co., Ltd. Weekly News Letter, a folio-sized single-sheet described as "a private and confidential communication to the 100 leading amateurs of America." This first philatelic "insider newsletter" continued until May 1, 1897.
Scott also issued during 1897 a more widely distributed weekly, John W. Scott's Junior Weekly Letter, later called John W. Scott's Weekly Bulletin.
Scott was an organizer of the first important philatelic exhibition in the U.S. This took place in 1889 at the Eden Musée in New York City; Scott wrote the catalog and was the major exhibitor. He was an active supporter of stamp clubs in Brooklyn, Manhattan and Staten Island. Scott permanently retired as a stamp dealer in 1917, after seeing his business become the most successful in the U.S. He held 120 stamp auctions, including the first one held anywhere, the first auction catalog with illustrations, and the first auction to sell a stamp at above $1000.
He was a founding member of the Collectors Club of New York (1896), serving in many positions, including president in 1910. He catalogued its philatelic library (Catalogue of the Philatelic Library of the Collectors Club (1917)). He was also a member of the American Philatelic Association (now the APS), holding many positions, including Trustee. He was the APS President (1917-1919) when he died.
In an 1890 poll by The Philatelist (NY) (Vol. 2, No. 4, June 16, 1890), Scott was named “The most prominent philatelist,” winning over John K. Tiffany in a “glorious victory for the ‘Great and only Scott’.”
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re: lot of US covers for $15
Nice covers, you certainly got your money worth!
US cover collectors like foreign destination covers. And note the one from Duncan Dak is a territorial cover.. Dakota Territory before it became North and South Dakota
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09:33:53pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: lot of US covers for $15
And Duncan (SD) is a DPO (1883 to 1913) with a Helbock scarcity rating of 4.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
08 Feb 2024
10:29:11pm
re: lot of US covers for $15
"And Duncan (SD) is a DPO (1883 to 1913) with a Helbock scarcity rating of 4."
Not being a collector of covers could someone explain this to me, especially the "Helbock scarcity rating of 4". Is that good or bad?
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07:18:21am
Auctions - Approvals
re: lot of US covers for $15
Sorry Harvey,
I should have explained. Richard Helbock was a prolific author writing about US postal history. One of his early efforts was complete listings of all known post offices (even those only in existence for a few years) in series of pocket pamphlets published by state. This eventually morphed into an 8 volume set by geographic area complete with rarity factors from 1 (common) to 9 (scarce).
In valuing you have to realize that most people collect by state and county There are counties with a lot of active collectors where even relatively common discontinued post offices (DPO's) sell for 3 or 4 dollars and scarcities for $100 to sky is the limit to counties which only one or two collectors exist (or none - in which case even a one of only one in existence cover is rendered pretty valueless).
Helbocks rarity factor of 4 is listed as $15 to $25 cover. Being a territorial cover adds somewhat to the value.
Helbock wrote dozens of other books on things such as RPO cancels, Doane cancels, Military cancels, etc. Enter "Helbock" into the Ebay search (use quote marks to eliminate close searches) and there are 560 listings shown which will give you some idea of the magnitude of his work.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
09 Feb 2024
08:04:53am
re: lot of US covers for $15
Thanks, I get it now! I collect the post offices for the county (Queen's) in Nova Scotia. There are a few of us doing this, Cheryl is one as well, and there are some that are very difficult to find. I have been stuck at 32 / 47 for quite a while now. If I remember right Cheryl Grantham has a complete set. There is a book on Nova Scotia post offices and even the book is a bit rare. There are also books on some of the Counties but the person died before the province was finished. The book on the post offices of Halifax County has huge amounts of detail and has about 400 pages, not including the cities of Halifax and Dartmouth, which he meant to do later. Actually the house next to mine in Black Point held the local PO and this book lists the postal clerks and addresses of each post office. It's great to see Flora and Murray Lohnes, my old neighbours, preserved in a book! Of course many of the post offices no longer exist and some were in existence for a short time. So I understand the concept, just not the terminology used!
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re: lot of US covers for $15
I collect 7 areas of US postal history and if I bought random lots of covers just to get what I needed for my collections my house would look like one of those hoarder houses.
I collect:
US Auxiliary Markings
US Machine Cancels
US Expo Cancels
US Meters by type
Minnesota Postal History
National Air Mail Week covers and cachets from Minnesota
Canal Zone Postal History
Not to mention my worldwide cover collection, one from each postal authority . . .
Jammu and Kashmir cover
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
09 Feb 2024
12:39:46pm
re: lot of US covers for $15
I really like the Stillwater rosette!! I'm starting to get a nice collection of fancy cancels and that one is really "cool"! Thanks for showing!!
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
09 Feb 2024
02:17:29pm
re: lot of US covers for $15
Did a little bit of a Google search and had a bit of trouble finding the town of Duncan in either North or South Dakota. Does it still exist as a town as such and can anyone show it's location on a map. It's possible that the Dakota Territory actually contained parts of what are now other states. Just curious!
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re: lot of US covers for $15
Harvey,
The best resource on the internet for US post offices is Jim Forte's US Post Offices lookup page.
A search for Duncan in South Dakota yields the following:
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re: lot of US covers for $15
This website gives the location of Duncan though the map is not all that helpful.
https://www.anyplaceamerica.com/director ...
Apparently Duncan was famous for its Church.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
09 Feb 2024
03:08:44pm
re: lot of US covers for $15
Interesting! Several of my attempts to Google Duncan came up with Duncan Church. Now I know why! Thanks for the information!!
I bookmarked your link to US post offices. Does anyone know if a similar site exists for Canada? That would be amazingly useful!!
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re: lot of US covers for $15
"Does anyone know if a similar site exists for Canada? That would be amazingly useful!!"
Personally I think this is something that BNAPS (The British North America Philatelic Society) should feature on their website.
Login to Like
this post
re: lot of US covers for $15
Interesting conversation.
I collect New Jersey, and I currently have 1024 of the 2222 listings on my spread sheet. It's getting difficult to add anything anymore. Just about when I'm ready to give up, I'll come across a postmark on eBay for a post office that was in existence in the 1860s for less than ten years!
I started out with the Kay & Smith "New Jersey Postal History", merged with the USPS zip code directory, a few other sources and rolling changes I discover as I collect and post office changes as they occur. This book was published in 1977 and I believe the gentlemen are dead so it's never been updated. I also have their book for Pennsylvania, but decline to start another collection, especially since PA is several times the size of NJ!
I haven't looked at the Helbock scarcity factors of 1-10 but on my spread sheet I have the years founded and ended for offices, with the number of years in operation shown. Offices that are current are a formula that keeps updating with time.
There are no doubt post offices where no examples of the postmark exists. So I'm aware I will never 100% complete my collection. But things change all the time as old collections or correspondence hoards are uncovered. For instance, a while back I bought a box of 300 postal cards all addressed to the Chicago Telephone Equipment Company between 1910-20. That's the box I found the New York City Pneumatic Tube stamped card. This was a box that had been practically untouched for 100 years! And that's where very scarce postmarks can appear.
And in other hoards I find a chain of correspondence between two families. And suddenly a dozen of a previously unseen postmark comes to light. So never say never. And it doesn't have to be ancient. For Monmouth County NJ I had never seen the "Alfred Vail" Rural Branch / Station / Branch. And suddenly there was one from 1955 on eBay, so I grabbed it. It was on a greeting card size envelope. I wrote the seller and he had two more from that same pair of correspondents. Now I have all three. Who knows if any more exist?
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
11 Feb 2024
06:13:14pm
re: lot of US covers for $15
I had a friend make a copy of my unstamped cover I mentioned above. She didn't do a great job but it's OK. The letter went by packet ( Cunard Line "America") from Pictou N.S. to Sanquhar, Scotland with post marks added in Halifax and a tombstone postmark from Liverpool, England. It's not in great shape but I like it anyway! Date: Jan 17, 1853
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