Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
05:57:19pm
EDIT: I'm sitting at my computer looking out the back window at the most gorgeous red sunset I've seen in a very long time. I know it's probably caused by crap in the atmosphere
but it's still beautiful to look at!! 
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You find that information in a Scott Cat.!
Go by the library and see if they have a Scott Cat, you can read!
The first precancel is from the 1851-1857 series.
1898
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10:21:43pm
"Go by the library and see if they have a Scott Cat, you can read!"
That's not insulting or anything!! I ask a simple question and this is what I get back! You really have to work on a few social skills. I'm sorry if that sounds insulting but your attitude needs some work!
"The first precancel is from the 1851-1857 series."
I just spent some time looking through my Scott's specialized and I can find no reference to precancels, unless we have a totally different definition of what a precancel is, anywhere except for a few pictures in the introduction. Could you please give me your definition of a precancel?
And lastly, if you can't find a more pleasant way to respond to a question, please don't respond at all!!!
EDIT: If you, 1898, continue to respond to my posts in this manner then I will stop making posts. I think the people in charge need to contact you about your attitude. An apology would be nice!
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@Harvey
I did not know you had a Scott Cat! Telling you to go by the library would not cost you anything.
I've scanned the page from the Scott Cat., hope it helps.
Why do you need an apology? Because of my suggestion of going by the library, again I did not know you have a Scott Cay., OK, I so very sorry for my library comment, very wrong for me to suggest that!
My definition of what a precancel is the same as in the Scott Cat!
From the Scott Cat. I think the Scott # is #7.
Let me know if you still can't find the reference.
Again sorry for my remark about the library.
1898
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I will note the county library here does not have any Scott catalogs. They seem to get rid of anything that does not circulate or high interest and have added large sections of DVDs, etc.
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11:01:49am
"From the Scott Cat. I think the Scott # is #7."
Point taken, I never really thought of the "PAID or paid" as a precancel. My bad, I guess, but even Scott's calls it a precancel since it allowed the stamp to avoid going through the post office. I've always thought of precancels as being horizontal or vertical lines with or without a place name. So I amend my question a bit. If we think of what I am considering to be the modern type of precancel can anyone tell me when they started. By the way I do have a couple with "paid" as a cancel and will have to change my attitude about them a bit! I must check Scott's more carefully and see when the earlier type of precancel was used!
EDIT: The PAID cancel goes even as far back as the postmaster provisionals so if we consider this to be a precancel then they existed from the beginning. There were others as well since I ran into one that says "steam ship", "carrier" and many others. I would still like to know when the "modern" concept of a precancel started.
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@Harvey
There are two types of precancels, which type are you asking about?
1898
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11:15:49am
This is getting too complicated, I retract the question!
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i've never heard anyone talk of the PAID cancels on either stampless or early covers before pre-payment was required as "pre-cancels."
It is certainly not in the same vein as what we commonly refer to as "pre-cancels" or even "service-inscribed" stamps.
I'll need to go look at some Scott front matter and get myself up to speed; maybe there's something i'm missing or it's just nomenclature.
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11:43:17am
I asked what I thought was a simple question, obviously I was wrong. I would just like to know when "what we think of now as precancel" started. I think it was around the Scott #300 series but I could be wrong.
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Hi Harvey,
If you are meaning Bureau precancels the date is 1916. You can freely download an early Bureau Precancel catalog here
https://stampsmarter.org/learning/Home_C ...
Here is more info on early US printed pre-cancels
https://www.precancels.com/important-dat ...
Don
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12:08:05pm
Thanks Don!!
I also found this on line.
"The precancel types include: Bureau plates, city type coils, electroplates, rubber handstamps with lines, rubber handstamps with bars, wide hand electros with lines, narrow hand electros with line, vinyl handstamps with lines and play card revenues."
I obviously have to do a bit more research before I really understand this topic!! I definitely have three precancels of US #300 from 1902 - 1903, I wonder which type they are!
When I have a bit more time I'll go through your two links and sort it out. I have no intention of becoming an expert but I'd really like to know what I'm talking about. I just started looking at, and for, precancels a couple months ago and it is much more complicated than I thought! That seems to happen a lot!
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This book has all the info you are looking for and more.
1898
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03:42:33pm
@1898 Thanks but when I get a book I want it to cover the newer material as well. That is a great book for the early material but a lot of the precancels I have are newer. I'm not sure I even need a reference book for what I need to know right now. It's just a minor collection for me at the moment - one per state, state capitals and unusual items. I might go further into it later.
Edit: I was looking through some of the information Don included above. I've come to a decision! This is a side collection for me so I'm just going to do one per state (complete) and area of influence and one for each state capital plus picking up unusual ones. Going whole hog into precancels would be an insane idea considering all the other areas I collect. It's pretty much an area where a serious precancel collector could keep himself busy for many years! Way too much for me right now. I do have a huge precancel collection that I bought cheaply that I will organize this Winter by state first and then by town or city. If anyone is looking for any town or area in particular send me an email and I'll file it away until I can get to it! No charge, just glad to help!
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Here is a little bit from the book.
1898
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See the previous posting, Scott #1 & #2 were precancelled!
1898
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05:11:47pm
When I started this post I was mainly concerned with more modern types of precancels. All my questions have been answered already!
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can you explain what the book says about precancelling 1 and 2.
I am interested to see how this might have worked and is it, as I suspect, precancelled in the sense that an optional payment had been made or was it something else?
Sorry, I don't have that book and I live in a county unlikely to have that book in the county system.
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"I just spent some time looking through my Scott's specialized and I can find no reference to precancels"
Harvey,
just as a test look up in your Scott US specialized catalog stamp number 1898Ab.
You'll find this stamp as well as many other that they do have their own cat. number. Mine is the 2017 ed.
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07:15:22pm
You're right of course! But I don't collect the newer material with a 1977 cut off. I don't remember seeing precancels mentioned among what I collect but I also admit I haven't looked at the entire book. Sorry if I missed important information that is there. I'm only using the Canada Unitrade as an example which numbers each and every precancel. I will check through my US Scott's Specialized and see how many pre - 1977 are mentioned.
I just checked out the 1938 definitive series which has huge numbers of precancels. They do mention that they exist and are to be priced as used stamps but do not give them separate numbers as Unitrade does. It's sort of like Scott's doesn't consider them to be that important. They don't really ignore them, but almost! The newer material is treated in a different manner because the fact that they contained precancels was actually built into the stamps. That's just my way of looking at it but it seems that Scott's has very little interest in the precancels for the period I collect.
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The 1938 series regulars you mentioned, but you did not say if they were local or bureau issued precancels?
1898
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@amsd
I'm not sure what you question is, but I'll try: It means at the time 1847 Wheeling was located in VA, sometime later that part of VA became a state called West VA.
1898
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10:40:37pm
@1898
"you did not say if they were local or bureau issued precancels"
I take back some of the nasty things I said about Scott's and precancels, my bad for not looking carefully enough!!!
In each series of definatives they give a list of any bureau cancels that they know exist. The fact they don't give a number is fine, at least I know what might be out there. Once you know where to look it appears they consistently do this. For example for certain issues they even tell you how many different bureau precancels exist. I think they only do bureau precancels which according to a previous post here started in 1916. I have 70 precancels of the 1923 BLACK 2 CENT HARDING and they don't mention a precancel so maybe, and I'm just guessing, they are all local. I would also guess that many stamps have both types but I think Scott's just gives the bureau ones. I'm new at precancels so I am still learning! I really don't plan on delving into all of the complicated parts of this, at least not yet!
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On Ebay this morning is the book I recommended, see attached.
1898
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07:20:39pm
By looking at the stamps themselves how can you tell the difference between the local and bureau precancels? I've been checking out the early precancels I have which should be local because of the date. I was expecting the early ones to be cruder with thicker lines and not as well done in general. This isn't what I found. I don't have access to a scanner at this point but some of the early precancels are done with very fine lines and incredibly precise printing. Without looking at books and lists from books I don't see any way to tell them apart easily. My guess is that most of the cruder attempts are probably local but not all the better ones are bureau precancels. Does anyone know a sure way to tell without resorting to lists from books? Just curious!!
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Harvey,
You can usually tell by the style of the precancel, at least on US stamps. Have a look at this page, and it will give you a quick overview of the various US styles of precancels out there and which are bureaus and which are locals. https://www.precancels.com/styles/
disclosure - am a precancel fanatic and a member of PSS.
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Allen
Thankyou...I have a few precancels and this is a excellent bit of info
Cheryl
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08:50:28am
I know you can usually tell but I've got a few that I'm sure are local that are exceptionally well done. I'll add a scan in a couple days for stamp #300 that is before the bureau precancels were done.
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1898
"I'm not sure what you question is, but I'll try: It means at the time 1847 Wheeling was located in VA, sometime later that part of VA became a state called West VA."
No, I guess I didn't phrase my question well. (I know the history of WVA becoming a state carved from VA).
what was the purpose of precancelling the stamps? and were they done prior being affixed, after, etc. I assume that this is related to optional pre-payment at the time 1 and 2 were issued, but maybe you can shed light on this.
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@amsd
Sorry I cannot shed any light for you.
I did scan the entire article for you, it's short!
I'm still not sure what you want (maybe I'm extra dense tonight), but only a suggestion, there must some group interested in the history/usages/reasons for precancels on line. This was only a suggestion don't go postal on me like someone else interested in precancels here on SOR!
1898
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08:43:56am
Thanks 1898, a short but very interesting clip! Greatly appreciated and something to watch out for.
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"...what was the purpose of precancelling the stamps?..."
One reason, aside from mail handling efficiency and cost savings, was as a deterrent of employee theft of company stamps.
Don
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07:19:44pm
Here is a scan for three US #300 precancels. The one in the middle doesn't show up well, it should be a nice crisp "Dayton Ohio" on two lines inside two horizontal lines. It really looks too well defined to be a local scan, even though you can't see that here!! Too bad!!
The Scranton Penna. definitely looks like a local scan as does the one with three lines.
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04:27:51pm
I'm curious about something!! I've finally finished sorting the precancels by state by putting each state in a separate envelope. The next step will be to put them in a large stock book by state and within that by city/town. I noticed something a bit odd during the original sorting. There are some states that have very few precancels, smaller populated states like Hawaii, Rhode Island, Alaska and several others I can understand. My problem is that some of the higher populated states are grossly under represented, states like Texas, California and Florida along with others. Also almost nothing from either of the Carolina states. Has any other precancel collector noticed that the # of precancels has very little to do with the populations? Also Massachusetts seems to be over represented because of the huge number from Boston, the only cities that I would probably have more from are New York and Chicago. Just curious!!
EDIT: Please don't recommend I just buy a book to get this information. I do plan to do that if I decide to extend the collection I already have.
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Since precancels were made mostly for businesses that did large volumes of mail order business, you'll find the largest concentration of precancels in the areas with businesses that operated that way. Massachusetts had many in the first half of the century.
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06:04:12pm
Allen, that certainly makes sense! I guess I keep forgetting what they were used for!
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05:05:45pm
I've finally finished organizing the large precancel collection in a large stock book. There were seven pages for New York and also a large number for Illinois, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts and, for some reason, New Jersey. I ended up with one stamp each for Alaska, West Virginia and Wyoming. There is about half a page of ones that, as of yet, I can't identify. He also had about thirty perfins that I have to identify and a small number of silent precancels.
I also figured out another area to try to collect. I really like the series of precancels in the series starting with Scott #300. I have four precancels from the series, #'s 300, 302, 306 and 309. I'm going to try to find some more since I really like the series and it seems to usher in precancels as we recognize them today. They would all be local precancels since the bureau versions were not produced yet. Scott's US Specialized lists Bureau precancels only as far as I can figure out. I really don't want to buy a book on precancels yet but can anyone provide me a list of which stamps in that series exist as local precancels?
I also now have a Canada precancel from each province (8) that were produced and now I'll try to find one of each type listed in Unitrade. I don't really want to spend much money on this, it's just purely for fun!! There were only a very limited number of towns and cities that issued precancels. One from each might be possible but I haven't decided yet!! Fun yet to come!!
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There are alot of Scott number 279's also with very attractive precancels!
1898
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09:44:20pm
"There are alot of Scott number 279's also with very attractive precancels!"
I'm sure you're right about this, but I still like the series starting with #300. Could you show a scan of #279 as a precancel?
You're right, there are a bunch of them on E-Bay, but I still am interested in the #300 series! I will probably pick up a 279, thanks!!
Bought this one for $5, I like the way it's set up. I don't have one like this so thanks for the information!
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/394876559250
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I can't show you one as that's in the second truck load of stuff from Texas, maybe some time in November or December!
1898
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08:03:34am
@1898 No problem, there are lots of pictures on line and I picked one up last night! I actually didn't have a proper copy of Scott #279, the one in my album is actually 279a which is the fairly uncommon vertical watermark version. I'd forgotten that until I actually looked at the stamp. Thanks for your help and information!!!
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08:26:31am
I figured this large group of stamps would end up giving me most of the state capitals but I only have 29 / 50 so I'll be keeping a close eye on any precancels offered here. I'd prefer to pick up as many as possible on SOR but I think several of them will be difficult to find. I think in many cases the fact that state capitals are not large industrial towns or cities will make their precancels a bit more rare. I have large numbers of stamps from states like Missouri and New Jersey and a few others without having the state capital. A bit of searching left to do!!
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Good morning Harvey,
I came across this thread from 2019. Check the post from Don. Some information on Canadian precancels you can use.
https://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_ma ...
Vince
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10:14:24am
Thanks Vince, greatly appreciated! I haven't made my mind up yet how far to go with the Canada precancels. The list of towns and cities is useful, I think it's in another post but I'll cut and paste this one and file it away so I don't lose it. Thanks again for the help!!!!
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Scott number 300 there are lots of plate varieties found.
1898
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02:43:06pm
I'm not really concerned about plate varieties for the series. I have the entire series from #300 - #313 with a few varieties and am happy with that. What I have decided to do is pick up at least one precancel for each stamp in the series that I can. I collect way too many areas to worry about all the varieties unless I am lucky enough to end up with one. But I do like the series very much with it's intricate engraving and looking for the precancels keeps my interest going in the series. I much prefer classic stamps and really don't like the "photographed" stuff being produced now. There are a few exceptions but not many!! Thanks for your help with #279, very interesting type of precancel!
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Somehow you missed my point!
As you are looking for precancels to add to your collection often you will find plate varieties that are unrecognized by the seller.
I never buy plate varieties as such, only purchase unrecognized examples, especially rare ones!
1898
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10:06:40pm
I'm just curious if anyone knows whether this type of "wheel" precancel was just done in Michigan (the auto industry) or whether it was used anywhere else. I also have two precancels that look absolutely normal except they were printed in red. I don't think it was common since I haven't seen others except for the transportation series and the two I have are on older items, the two cent black Harding and is shown in this set of comments.
https://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_ma ...
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BTW I only really collect the Bureau Precancels and a few of the other odds and sods that come across my desk. I've not really got into the Town and Type cancels .
That being said I did get gifted a older Town and Type catalog seveth edition 2007 that I sort of feel bad having it just sitting on the shelf gathering dust. So if you'd like it just let me know and I will mail it off to you no charge ( always glad to help others with their new addictions !!!! )
Bob
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That one is a local precancel, type L-1 E for Jackson, so yes that would be the only town you'd find it.
-Allen
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This webpage is interesting - its by member Ralph Heymsfeld;
http://www.hobbizine.com/precancel.html
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08:32:29am
I have a picture saved from a lot I bid on and missed because of price. There were several of that precancel included plus another interesting one. I'll post it again below!! It's a little fuzzy but the one in the bottom row is interesting. Most of these are local precancels because of the date of the stamps.
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@Harvey
Your Jackson MI appears to be type 1, is this correct?
There are lots of local precancels that I find attractive, I'll only show a few of the many examples from the book. The book also gives background and other information.
1898
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01:49:41pm
1898 Thanks for showing these!!
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09:30:08am
A different question! A couple months ago when I was starting with precancels I bought a collection of about 70 copies of the 1923 2 cent black Harding stamps (#610 or 612) with various precancels including two red ones which was my main reason for buying them. Later I bought a collection of about 3500 precancels and there were absolutely no 2 cents black Hardings there. This seem a bit odd to me!! Are these stamps a bit hard to find or was it a total fluke? I'll re-post a fairly blurry picture of the collection below.
I was thinking the larger collection had quite a few of these but they were actually a black 7 cent Roosevelt from a later series (#639).
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Very difficult question you asked. My guess without more information is it's just a fluke.
1898
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12:28:32pm
@1898 That would be my guess as well, but it still seems a bit odd. Also these would have to be local cancels since the Scott's lists the stamps that have bureau cancels.
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Harvey,
There is a contingent of collectors that specialize in collecting precancels on the Black Harding issue. There's even a specialized catalog for them. That would probably explain the lack of them in the lot you bought, while also explaining the lot of nothing but Black Hardings.
-Allen
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07:59:14am
Thanks Allen! It makes sense now but I had no idea!! It seems like I must have ended up buying the collection of someone from the "Black Harding Club"! There also seem to be very few of them for sale on line!
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11:15:51am
How about the two red lettered precancels? They are the only two I have run into, one from Danvers, Mass. and the other I can't read. If we limit ourselves to precancels as we know them, say from just before 1900, and ignore the older material, has anyone run into red lettering before? I'm also ignoring the newer series like the transportation series, etc. So lets go from about 1898 (#279) up to my 1976 cutoff. Are there many precancels in colours other than black? Also ignore the NY, NY postage dues with the string of pearls in blue. I am getting a book soon which might help but I'm curious mostly about the two 2 cent black Hardings I have in red.
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Somebody might have better information than me on this, but it's my understanding that most colored precancels are "favor" cancels done when a collector visits a post office and requests an impression of a particular device. I have a number that are in purple and green, though I don't recall any in red.
-Allen
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See Scan for right and proper colored precanx info. There way too many for me to scan all the info! Besides you cannot believe everything you read in a book.
1898
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05:22:14pm
@1898 I assume the scan is from the book by Gunesch you showed earlier. It looks like I'll have to pick up a copy. There are a couple on E-Bay and I did a "saved search" to keep my eyes open for a while for a reasonable shipping price. One of the two isn't too bad but it won't hurt to wait a bit. I know "you can't believe everything you read in a book" but this one might be worth having. Thanks for the response!! To use your words, it looks like a "right and proper" book to have! I am not making fun of you, you did me a big favour with your response! Thanks!!
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Hey Harvey,
I have been organizing my library and found a duplicate copy of "Guide to Precancel Collecting" by Gunesch. Send me a pm with your address and I will get it in the mail.
Vince
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02:33:48pm
Thanks Vince, greatly appreciated!!
EDIT: This site really is amazing, there are many very helpful people here. As a matter of fact, most of you are very helpful!! Thanks very much!
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03:15:17pm
I was just sent copies of "The Precancel Stamp Society's Town and Type Catalog ... " Seventh Edition and "Silent Precancels..." by David Smith by Bob Bidner. I hope Bob doesn't mind me using his name. Incredible reference books! I'm not sure how far I wanted to go with US precancels but the sky's the limit now. I didn't realize how many towns and cities had precancels. I would think it was impossible to collect them all, maybe some people just concentrate on a state or two! And the one on silent precancels is very impressive as well! I'm not sure whether to thank Bob or not, I've got some decisions to make!
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05:29:43pm
Just curious about something. I admit I have been a bit lazy and haven't looked for the answer myself yet! Did they do precancels on the Kansas and Nebraska overprints : Scott #'s 658 to 679? I've never seen one so I'm curious if anyone else has. The Scott's specialized doesn't mention any bureau precancels but I'm curious if any locals exist.
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They do, indeed, and they are exceedingly hard to come by.
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12:22:36pm
Thanks for showing Allen, a great item!!!
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10:06:24pm
I was checking out precancels of 2 cent black Hardings and ran into this one!!
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/285222369144
I think, since no certificate is offered I might pass!
Edit: I was looking at his other pictures and he's trying to present a good argument but would any sensible person who thought they had such a valuable item try to sell it without a certificate? Sounds a bit crazy to me!!
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Wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole, even if I had that kind of money. Can't trust anyone that refers to a precancel as "mint".
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03:31:32pm
I just got the Ganesch book from Vinman a few minutes ago in the mail, thanks Vince! It looks like it's going to be a very useful book. Lots of great information! I'm still not sure how deep I'm going to go into US precancels but with the books members have sent me the sky's the limit. So far I'm doing one/state (complete), state capitals (35/50) and the Scott #300 series (not going to do the last 4 due to cost so only need one). I have to figure out where to go from there. I have a good selection of silent precancels and about 70 from the two cent Hardings. I might pick a state or two and try for a reasonable selection. I'm going to have to figure out where to go with Canada as well. One per province was easy with only 8 and there were not many cities or towns that issued them (about 50 I think) so that might be doable unless some are very rare! What to do????
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10:09:56pm
Just picked this up for just over $20 on E-Bay. This is my second one like this and I think it's really "COOL"!! If I remember correctly all of these are from Jackson Michigan!!
EDIT: I now have 40 / 50 of the state cancels - getting there!!
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06:32:33pm
Another question! I've been looking through my large collection of US precancels and noticed that a few (very few) have been postally cancelled. Would this have been due to a mistake on the part of the post office worker or the sender? How common is this?
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It's fairly common, and usually a result of an inattentive post office clerk. It's rather annoying when the cancellation is so heavy I can't read the precancel.
-Allen
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04:21:38pm
Another question! I am interested in precancels from the US series Scott #300 - 313. I have already #300 - 309 and will probably stop there due to the price of the four higher denominations. Thanks to a member I have several books on US precancels but there is one question that I'm curious about. The Scott's Specialized US catalog only deals with bureau precancels so it doesn't touch this early series. Can anyone tell me with towns or cities issued precancels for 310 to 313. I'm fairly sure about Chicago and New York being possibles but I keep seeing Philadelphia on line. Does anyone have access to a list of cities for these four stamps?
EDIT: I've also seen San Francisco associated with one of the four stamps. I can't remember which one!
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03:24:30pm
Found an interesting precancel on E-Bay a little while ago printed upside down. I know it really doesn't add much, if anything, to the value but I'm working on getting a set of precancels for this series and liked that this one was a little odd!
It's a bit fuzzy but it's for Minneapolis / Minn.
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The invert doesn't really add anything to the value, but some folks will collect every variety including normal and invert and some splits (a precancel that was applied across two stamps, showing parts of two different impressions). It reveals a bit about the layout of the device used to apply the precancel.
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07:00:32pm
I can find pictures online for precancels of Scott's #'s 310 (usually Chicago), 311 (usually Philadelphia) and 312 (usually San Francisco) but I can not find a precancel of the $5 stamp. Does anyone know if it exists and from which city? The first three are affordable (barely for the third one), the fourth one should be very pricey!! I'm really not sure if I want to pursue these or not! NOTE: I do not own the stamps shown below!!
EDIT: I still can't find my last three US capital precancels - Frankfort, Dover and Carson City. They must be very scarce but I refuse to give up hope!! I'm getting very stubborn!!
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10:03:23pm
If you look above quite a ways you will see the collection of 2 cent black Hardings that I bought a few months ago. Two are done in red - Jacksonville Fla. and Danvers Mass. Both are mentioned in Gunesch as existing in red. I am forever searching online for precancels and have never run into red precancels and even 2 cent Hardings are rare to see. Does anyone have precancels done in red that you could show a scan of? I'll have to go through Gunesch more carefully to see which others exist. I remember when I started on precancels I was warned it was easy to get caught up in. You were right, it is very easy to get carried away!!!!
EDIT: Several are mentioned to exist in red but they seem to be fairly rare. Purple also seems to be a commonly mentioned colour but can be difficult to tell from black. Violet and blue are also mentioned. The only blue I have is NY's "chain of pearls". Green is also mentioned a couple times. Does anyone have some coloured precancels you can share?
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04:50:57pm
I've been going through this collection cataloging what's actually there. There are a few I can't fully read and more research is needed. None are really repeated but there are a few where I have an inverted precancel and a regular precancel of the same place. There are two in red which according to my small amount of research are the only two done in red (Jacksonville Fla. and Danvers Mass.). Please correct me if I'm wrong. There's a few that read up or down instead of across and a couple that are split over two stamps. I'm not sure if I want to take this much further since I bought the lot as a collection on E-Bay but if I see a few more 2 cent black Hardings I might go for it. Someone spent a lot of time on this already, it wouldn't hurt to go a bit further!
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Still looking through my collection for other colors, but here's one done in purple. It is also what one would call an invert.
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09:31:21am
Just picked up this nice block of the Black 2 cent Harding with a nice purple or violet precancel for Springfield Mass. for a fair price of $10. It's not mentioned in Gunesch with their coloured cancels but it looks fine to me, knock on wood!!!
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Just had to share this one with you that I purchased this morning. Bluefield, WV - Scott #610 PSS type 454
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07:20:23am
Nice stamp Allen. I assume you do the same thing as I do and display the inverts upside down!! Seems obvious!
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Here's another purple precancel from Laura, IL PSS type L-1 HS.
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10:28:40pm
I was just checking out my album and noticed that one of my collection of about a douzen Shermack coils is a precancel. I wouldn't really expected that these coils dispensed by vending machines would have many precancels unless of course the company using coils from that machine had it loaded with precancels at some time. I know there are several types of these special coils and I wonder if anyone out there can show me any precanceled coils connected to what my Scott's US Specialized calls "Vending and Affixing Machine Perforations". My small collection is Shermack Type III, the rectangular holes, and Gunesch acknowledges that precancels exist but it gives no indication how common they may be. Just curious!
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I'm not basing this on a catalogue or any scientific method, but given what I've seen while looking around, there are quite a few Schermack precancels out there. There were other types of private perforations that are particularly rare that are only known to exist with precancels, the NYC Boy Scout coil being the most famous one that comes to mind. https://stampauctionnetwork.com/y/y92028 ...
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Joe & Allen,
I checked my copy of "Guide to United States Vending and Affixing Machine Perforations 1907 - 1927". There are several references to precancels in the Index. When I get some time I will go through the listings and post what I find, hopefully later today.
Here are a few Precancels on private vending perforations from my collection. The first stamp is a Mailometer Type IV and the rest are Shermack.
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I have a copy of George P. Howard's book "The Stamp Machines and Coiled Stamps", copyright 1943. There are some listings of precancelled stamps in it. I'll see what info I can get from it.
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09:48:11am
Great stamps Vince, thanks for posting!!!
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Here is a list I compiled from "Guide to United States Vending and Affixing Machine Perforations 1907 - 1927" by Steven R. Belasco.
Private Vending Precancels
Shermack Type IV
343 - Chicago, IL
Fort Wayne, IN
383 – Ashland, OH
Chicago, IL
Covington, KY (2 types)
Flint, MI
Fort Wayne, IN (single and double print)
Saint Louis, MO
384 – Cleveland, OH
Saint Louis, MO
483 – Willoughby, VT (possibly as a request item)
531 – Chicago, IL (normal and inverted)
Flint, MI
New York, NY (2 types)
532 - New York, NY
533 – New York, NY
534 - New York, NY
534A – New York, NY
575 - Chicago, IL (2 types, normal and inverted)
Maysville, KY
Gettysburg, PA
576 - Chicago, IL (single And double prints)
577 – Forest City, IA
Mailometer Type I
343 – Saint Louis, MO (normal and inverted)
Mailometer Type IA
383 – Saint Louis, MO
Mailometer Type IV
343 – Saint Louis, MO
383 – Saint Louis, MO(single, double and inverted prints)
384 – saint Louis, MO
408 – Saint Louis, MO (two types, double on one type)
409 - Saint Louis, MO
Farwell Group 4 Perforations
408 – Chicago, IL (this is the only precancel on a Farwell coil)
Edit- The book I was using gives no indication of rarity.
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11:09:10am
Thanks Vince, your expertise is appreciated as always. I am still not sure how far I want to go into US precancels but I have cut and pasted this and filed it away in case I run into more of this material. I have two Shermack precancels, I found another one yesterday, and would pick up a few more if the chance arose. It would be nice to have a couple of the Mailometers to give a bit more variety. I think they might be a bit harder to find at a reasonable price but you never know. Thanks again for all your help!
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Harvey - have been enjoying watching you get sucked farther and farther into precancels. Think this is how lots of us get into areas we never intended to….
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10:59:56am
It is kind of hard to know when to stop!! I treat this as a fun part of my collection so I am hesitant to spend scads of $$$ on it. Anyone who decides to collect all precancels is attempting an almost impossible task. I'm going to try to stick with state capitals, Canada's towns/cities, Canada's numbered precancels, the US series from #300 - #312, and a smattering of other types. I might pick up a few more of the Shermacks if the price is right. It is a fun area with all sorts of interesting side areas. If I was an American I might try to collect my state but for some US states like NY, California, etc. that would be almost impossible. What I find a bit confusing is why a state like Texas seems to have so few precancels. I sort of like the Canada lined cancels but even there getting one of each is fairly easy. Imagine trying to get one of each US silent precancels!! A real big task!!! Precancels are fun but you have to figure out where to draw the line!!
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12:27:11pm
I picked up two precancels the other day for my collection. One is a Michigan shield precancel to add to my collection of the series starting at Scott #300 and the other is a Cincinnati round precancel to add to my collection of different precancels. The Cincinnati one is fairly common but the shield precancel is a bit harder to find. Pictures follow!! I really like the shield precancels, all from Jackson, but only picked this one up to add to my collection of the #300 series. I really am trying to stick with my areas I decided to collect. The Cincinnati one was picked up because I wanted an example of that particular precancel (L - 4E). I guess L - 5E is similar except it is spaced for parcel post. Can anyone show an example of the two side by side?
EDIT: I know that the corner of the Cincinnati precancel is missing but for precancels, as long as the price is reasonable, I don't let that bother me. I know some people would have a problem with this, but I don't.
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02:23:03pm
I saw this on E-Bay and thought someone might be interested. I have a nice precancel from Canal Zone and don't want another one. You don't seem to see them very often and the price seems fair!
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/225678706673
EDIT: Just checked again! It's gone.
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I have to admit, I've been tempted to start yet another side collection of "odd" precancels that are something other than bars or lines with a town and state name. Like this one:
It's actually a map of the railroad lines branching out from Lansing.
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07:12:10am
I saw one like this for sale on E-Bay a while ago as part of a Michigan lot. There were also a few of the shield type there. The lot went fairly high and I wished I had bid more!!! This is an image of the lot. It was at the beginning of my precancel collecting. If I knew then what I think I know now I would have put in a higher bid. Five shields and the railway hub should have been at least a $100 bid. I can't remember what they sold for. I'm trying to stay away from precancels that are only lines and a place name and look for odd ones!
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If you see one of those "Railway Hub" precancels on Scott #300, I need it!
Also your Canal Zone stamp isn't a precancel. From 1903 onward Canal Zone used US stamps overprinted like this. Check your Scotts.
Here is Canal Zone #4 on postcard. This usage is quite rare as the stamp was only in use a few months.
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03:40:28pm
thanks Tom, that was a bit stupid of me. I actually have the stamp as part of my Canal Zone collection from 1939! I just got all "befuddled"!!
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11:47:02am
I do have a copy of Canal Zone 113 that has "CRISTOBAL / CANAL ZONE" between two horizontal lines. I'm sorry I can't show a scan at the moment but this would be a legitimate precancel for the community on the Atlantic side of the canal. I am searching for one that says "COLON / CANAL ZONE" for the terminus on the Pacific end. I can find several pictures for Christobal but not for Colon. Does anyone know if it even exists and could you show a scan if you have it? The one I have is the last one in the picture below. This picture was "borrowed" from online!!
EDIT: My gut tells me that Christobal is the only CZ precancel since they are the only ones I can find pictures for.
Here's another picture showing a few more precancels.
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Joe,
You are correct, the PSS Town and Type catalog only lists Cristobal for Canal Zone. There are other territories of the US that have issued precancels including Puerto Rico, American Samoa, Guam, Marshall Islands, Palau, Virgin Islands, Micronesia, the Marianas, and Canton Island. Puerto Rico is by far the most numerous of these, though the sum total of all precancels from the territories is only 71 different from 35 different towns. There is even a bureau precancel for San Juan, PR.
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Allen -
I will add to your excellent post...
Scanned below is a block from my WW block collection showing a San Juan, Puerto Rico precancel, with the addition of SRC and date markings from the Sears, Roebuck, and Company.
Sears Roebuck de Puerto Rico, Inc., or just Sears de Puerto Rico, was founded in 1961, as a subsidiary to the main Sears, Roebuck, and Company. It would serve to operate Sears stores in Puerto Rico, and the Virgin Islands. Sears had a presence throughout many countries in Latin America.
My block below shows that there are additional variations of precancels to be discovered out there from the US territories.
Linus
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03:07:58pm
I have a similar stamp from the same series, the 1 1/2 cent coil. There is no date but between the two horizontal lines is SAN JUAN / P. R. I'll post a scan of the stamp from on line. I won't have access to my scanner/photo person until Sunday!!
EDIT: There is a good sized lot of Puerto Rico precancels on E-Bay right now but the picture is very fuzzy. It's easy to find if anyone is interested. Here's the link: https://www.ebay.ca/itm/176306378389
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Joe,
That particular precancel is the one and only bureau precancel for Puerto Rico. It doesn't have the dated control on it because they were only required for stamps denominated 7 cents or higher and later on for a total postage cost of greater than 15 cents. Those dates and company initials were added by the company as a requirement starting sometime (can't remember exact date) in 1938. SRC is probably the most common company to have used those, but there are many. That, too, is a specialized area of precancel collecting with some rather devout adherents! There is also a catalog and database available for these called the Printed Dated Control Type Catalog.
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03:03:38pm
I don't know if I've asked this before but is this one of the earliest precancels as we know them? It is from Scott #279 from the 1898 series.
I picked it up for about $10 several months ago and was happy with the price since, to me, it seemed reasonable. I looked it up in the "Precancel Stamp Society's Town and Type Catalog of the United States and Territories", 2007 edition and it is, I think, L - 2 TS and lists for the sum of $0.25 USD!!! Out of curiosity what does the 2 - 2 signify?
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06:53:11pm
I know I'm asking way too many questions but would this set of Park Series precancels for Fall River Mills Cal. be examples of ones done as a favour for some person or company? You don't learn unless you ask!! This and the matching Farley series is one of my favourite series which is why I picked this up. Has anyone seen it before?
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Joe,
The Chicago precancel is what is known a "classic dated precancel" and there were 20 cities that used them from 1901 - 1902, though one persisted all the way to 1915. The "2-2" is the month and year of use, so February 1902. This died out as a practice quickly because if there were any stamps leftover at the end of the month, they couldn't be used according to postal regulations of the time. Dating came back with a vengeance in 1938 when the Postmaster General made the practice mandatory (along with a three letter company designator) for any stamps denominated 7c or higher.
The Farley's with precancels are definitely "favors", for two reasons. First precanceling commemoratives was highly frowned upon by the USPOD and only legitimately happened with companies that accepted postage as payment for goods and then turned around and precanceled them for use on their own mail. Second, the precancel style shown on those stamps wasn't issued until about 25 years after the stamps themselves. Having said that, there are quite a few collectors that go out of their way to collect this stuff. I'm not one of them.
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11:37:08am
Thanks Allen, great answers as always! The only reason I picked up the series of National Park Series favour precancels was because I really like the series and thought these were interesting. I really like that series and the Farley imperfs that follow it. I have a large collection of connected stamps and am always ready to add more. A few days ago Greg had a complete set of plate numbered blocks of six from the perforated series and I couldn't resist! I really don't know why I like that material and the prices are usually very fair!
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10:26:20pm
This is not really a question, just a comment. A few months ago I bought a huge collection of precancels from my local dealer and organized them by state in the largest stock book I could find, a 64 pager!! I was watching a show on YouTube and was glancing through this book again. I was amazed by the number of different kinds of precancels - different numbers and thicknesses of lines, number of lines of script, word clearness and thickness, some dated and some not, some with company(?) initials, some perfins, some postmarked but most not, inverts, splits and many other varieties. I wonder how long it will take to actually sort all this stuff out properly, if I ever do. I think collecting precancels properly would be a full time job!! This collector also had an area specially set aside for silent precancels, a complicated area on it's own. I'll have to think actually doing a better job separating the collection. What I found a bit odd was that there was not one 2 cent black Harding, they must be a bit scarce and not one coloured variety except with some of the newer items. It's a very complicated area!!
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05:51:46pm
Doing a bit more research on a very complicated area - precancels. In the picture below it appears that the third stamp is actually a silent precancel from Dayton, Ohio. I think I will stay away from trying to figure out and collect silent precancels!!
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Silent precancels are definitely not the easiest branch of precanceling. I've spent hours in the catalog and still be unable to make a decision on where one comes from. There's way too much variability in the way the devices were used, and sometimes the "device" in question was merely a brush or a pen. Having said that, I have a deep fascination with them. This one is my favorite so far.
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12:55:53pm
Allen, a gorgeous stamp with the shaded star. I was sent a book on Silent Precancels by Bob Bidner ( Silent Precancels by David Smith, 1995) and the only stars shown are either hollow, solid or beveled. Yours is not shown but I doubt if the book is totally complete! I would guess 90% of the precancels are lines of various number and thickness and most of them are stamp specific. I would not have the patience to measure the width of lines and distances between them. You also have to watch out for pen, brush, crayon or chalk!!
Here's the question! How do you tell the difference between a fancy cancel and a silent precancel? I am just going to pick up a few interesting examples and not worry too much about IDing them. In other words an accumulation instead of a collection. There is a cancellation called a "wheel of fortune (?)" that if it were well centered on the stamp it would easily pass as a silent precancel if you didn't have a catalog. This area is way too complicated for me!!
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03:15:18pm
Just got this nice double hit for $3.52, I'm real pleased with that!!
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Wow, it's rare to see a double quite so clear! Nice find.
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04:32:51pm
Finding it was a total piece of luck. One of the three state capitals I'm missing is Dover Delaware. I quite often search "Dover precancel" and came up with this Dover Ohio double strike and thought "Why not" and picked it up on my opening bid! I really like the stamp!!!!
EDIT: There is also a Dover New Jersey that comes up fairly often!! Being a Canadian I got a big kick out of finding Ottawa, Kansas as a post mark. I also proved that Newfoundland does have a precancel - of course it was a US town called Newfoundland!!!
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Joe,
Check out page 28-32 in this exhibit. Precancels and perfins on the "Kansas/Nebraska overprints.
https://www.rfrajola.com/Hadley/Hadley.p ...
if anyone has an interest in the Kansas/Nebraska overprints this exhibit will blow you away.
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I like precancels on lighter colored stamps. I collect 565 and 695. There are plenty of precancels out there but the cancels just don't show up over the dark blue ink.
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04:14:25pm
As most US collectors do I have the two series of the regular stamps. I have never had a huge interest in prefins but it would be fantastic to locate a precancel. A fantastic article that I'll bookmark for later. Thanks very much!!
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10:08:27pm
Another question! I have a few precancels that are pretty well unreadable due to fading or poor striking. Is there a way to make the overprint show up better? I haven't used my black light for ages and have no idea where it is. Would the design show up better under a black light or is there some other way to enhance the image without damaging the stamp. I am especially interested in a 2 cent black Harding that I got with a lot of Puerto Rico precancels. I would really like it to be an example from that area but it is totally unreadable! Any ideas?
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You can try Image Sleuth, it replaced Retro Reveal. It's pretty simple to use. You will need to download the program.
https://www.thestampweb.com/imagesleuth
I use it to help read lightly struck markings.
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Chances are it's unreadable for everyone, but you never know. Post a hi-res pic of the stamp and see if anyone else can make it out. I've done that a few times with pretty good results on the Facebook PSS group. For the real stumpers, we save them for the PSS Zoom meetings and ask the whiz guy, Phil Cayford, who seems to have a knack for reading the unreadable.
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11:57:06am
Not really a question but I recently finished the collection of precancels for the Scott series #300 - #313. I know this page will look ugly to some because it's crowded but it's the way I like to do pages. The regular series is there, the precancels from #300 - #312 since I don't think one exists for #313, a bunch of a's and b's and a couple nice oval registered postmarks. It's one of my favourite US pages and I look at it often!! Two of my favourite stamps on the page is the third stamp over in the top row, a nice silent precancel from Dayton Ohio, and the last stamp in the same row, a nice shield precancel from Jackson Michigan. The only way I would add to this set is if I could find more of these really odd precancels. But where would I put them???
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01:09:54pm
"Chances are it's unreadable for everyone, but you never know."
I had a really good look at the stamp and noticed that the state started with W, the third letter was S and since it was 4 letters long it must be WISC for Wisconsin. I don't have that in the Black Hardings so that is GOOD!!
EDIT: I just found an Alaska precancel I didn't realize I had. I had Willow AK filed under Arkansas!! Stupid, or what?
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"the state started with W, the third letter was C and since it was 4 letters long it must be WISC for Wisconsin"
"C" would be the fourth letter
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11:54:22am
Sorry, I meant to say the third letter was an S, I have to be more careful!!!
My Bad! I'll go back and fix it!!
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
03 Oct 2023
05:57:19pm
If you forget about silent precancels and postage dues (I have a "string of pearls" on J3) what would have been the first US stamp to be precanceled? The earliest one I have is the Franklin #300. Were there any before that? I would have expected there to be but that series seems to be my first with precanceled stamps. Just curious!
EDIT: I'm sitting at my computer looking out the back window at the most gorgeous red sunset I've seen in a very long time. I know it's probably caused by crap in the atmosphere but it's still beautiful to look at!!
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10:01:12pm
re: Question about precancels
You find that information in a Scott Cat.!
Go by the library and see if they have a Scott Cat, you can read!
The first precancel is from the 1851-1857 series.
1898
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
03 Oct 2023
10:21:43pm
re: Question about precancels
"Go by the library and see if they have a Scott Cat, you can read!"
That's not insulting or anything!! I ask a simple question and this is what I get back! You really have to work on a few social skills. I'm sorry if that sounds insulting but your attitude needs some work!
"The first precancel is from the 1851-1857 series."
I just spent some time looking through my Scott's specialized and I can find no reference to precancels, unless we have a totally different definition of what a precancel is, anywhere except for a few pictures in the introduction. Could you please give me your definition of a precancel?
And lastly, if you can't find a more pleasant way to respond to a question, please don't respond at all!!!
EDIT: If you, 1898, continue to respond to my posts in this manner then I will stop making posts. I think the people in charge need to contact you about your attitude. An apology would be nice!
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11:15:54pm
re: Question about precancels
@Harvey
I did not know you had a Scott Cat! Telling you to go by the library would not cost you anything.
I've scanned the page from the Scott Cat., hope it helps.
Why do you need an apology? Because of my suggestion of going by the library, again I did not know you have a Scott Cay., OK, I so very sorry for my library comment, very wrong for me to suggest that!
My definition of what a precancel is the same as in the Scott Cat!
From the Scott Cat. I think the Scott # is #7.
Let me know if you still can't find the reference.
Again sorry for my remark about the library.
1898
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re: Question about precancels
I will note the county library here does not have any Scott catalogs. They seem to get rid of anything that does not circulate or high interest and have added large sections of DVDs, etc.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
04 Oct 2023
11:01:49am
re: Question about precancels
"From the Scott Cat. I think the Scott # is #7."
Point taken, I never really thought of the "PAID or paid" as a precancel. My bad, I guess, but even Scott's calls it a precancel since it allowed the stamp to avoid going through the post office. I've always thought of precancels as being horizontal or vertical lines with or without a place name. So I amend my question a bit. If we think of what I am considering to be the modern type of precancel can anyone tell me when they started. By the way I do have a couple with "paid" as a cancel and will have to change my attitude about them a bit! I must check Scott's more carefully and see when the earlier type of precancel was used!
EDIT: The PAID cancel goes even as far back as the postmaster provisionals so if we consider this to be a precancel then they existed from the beginning. There were others as well since I ran into one that says "steam ship", "carrier" and many others. I would still like to know when the "modern" concept of a precancel started.
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11:12:09am
re: Question about precancels
@Harvey
There are two types of precancels, which type are you asking about?
1898
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
04 Oct 2023
11:15:49am
re: Question about precancels
This is getting too complicated, I retract the question!
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re: Question about precancels
i've never heard anyone talk of the PAID cancels on either stampless or early covers before pre-payment was required as "pre-cancels."
It is certainly not in the same vein as what we commonly refer to as "pre-cancels" or even "service-inscribed" stamps.
I'll need to go look at some Scott front matter and get myself up to speed; maybe there's something i'm missing or it's just nomenclature.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
04 Oct 2023
11:43:17am
re: Question about precancels
I asked what I thought was a simple question, obviously I was wrong. I would just like to know when "what we think of now as precancel" started. I think it was around the Scott #300 series but I could be wrong.
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re: Question about precancels
Hi Harvey,
If you are meaning Bureau precancels the date is 1916. You can freely download an early Bureau Precancel catalog here
https://stampsmarter.org/learning/Home_C ...
Here is more info on early US printed pre-cancels
https://www.precancels.com/important-dat ...
Don
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
04 Oct 2023
12:08:05pm
re: Question about precancels
Thanks Don!!
I also found this on line.
"The precancel types include: Bureau plates, city type coils, electroplates, rubber handstamps with lines, rubber handstamps with bars, wide hand electros with lines, narrow hand electros with line, vinyl handstamps with lines and play card revenues."
I obviously have to do a bit more research before I really understand this topic!! I definitely have three precancels of US #300 from 1902 - 1903, I wonder which type they are!
When I have a bit more time I'll go through your two links and sort it out. I have no intention of becoming an expert but I'd really like to know what I'm talking about. I just started looking at, and for, precancels a couple months ago and it is much more complicated than I thought! That seems to happen a lot!
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01:06:53pm
re: Question about precancels
This book has all the info you are looking for and more.
1898
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
04 Oct 2023
03:42:33pm
re: Question about precancels
@1898 Thanks but when I get a book I want it to cover the newer material as well. That is a great book for the early material but a lot of the precancels I have are newer. I'm not sure I even need a reference book for what I need to know right now. It's just a minor collection for me at the moment - one per state, state capitals and unusual items. I might go further into it later.
Edit: I was looking through some of the information Don included above. I've come to a decision! This is a side collection for me so I'm just going to do one per state (complete) and area of influence and one for each state capital plus picking up unusual ones. Going whole hog into precancels would be an insane idea considering all the other areas I collect. It's pretty much an area where a serious precancel collector could keep himself busy for many years! Way too much for me right now. I do have a huge precancel collection that I bought cheaply that I will organize this Winter by state first and then by town or city. If anyone is looking for any town or area in particular send me an email and I'll file it away until I can get to it! No charge, just glad to help!
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05:53:03pm
re: Question about precancels
Here is a little bit from the book.
1898
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04:56:26pm
re: Question about precancels
See the previous posting, Scott #1 & #2 were precancelled!
1898
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05 Oct 2023
05:11:47pm
re: Question about precancels
When I started this post I was mainly concerned with more modern types of precancels. All my questions have been answered already!
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re: Question about precancels
can you explain what the book says about precancelling 1 and 2.
I am interested to see how this might have worked and is it, as I suspect, precancelled in the sense that an optional payment had been made or was it something else?
Sorry, I don't have that book and I live in a county unlikely to have that book in the county system.
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re: Question about precancels
"I just spent some time looking through my Scott's specialized and I can find no reference to precancels"
Harvey,
just as a test look up in your Scott US specialized catalog stamp number 1898Ab.
You'll find this stamp as well as many other that they do have their own cat. number. Mine is the 2017 ed.
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05 Oct 2023
07:15:22pm
re: Question about precancels
You're right of course! But I don't collect the newer material with a 1977 cut off. I don't remember seeing precancels mentioned among what I collect but I also admit I haven't looked at the entire book. Sorry if I missed important information that is there. I'm only using the Canada Unitrade as an example which numbers each and every precancel. I will check through my US Scott's Specialized and see how many pre - 1977 are mentioned.
I just checked out the 1938 definitive series which has huge numbers of precancels. They do mention that they exist and are to be priced as used stamps but do not give them separate numbers as Unitrade does. It's sort of like Scott's doesn't consider them to be that important. They don't really ignore them, but almost! The newer material is treated in a different manner because the fact that they contained precancels was actually built into the stamps. That's just my way of looking at it but it seems that Scott's has very little interest in the precancels for the period I collect.
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09:58:55pm
re: Question about precancels
The 1938 series regulars you mentioned, but you did not say if they were local or bureau issued precancels?
1898
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10:03:11pm
re: Question about precancels
@amsd
I'm not sure what you question is, but I'll try: It means at the time 1847 Wheeling was located in VA, sometime later that part of VA became a state called West VA.
1898
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05 Oct 2023
10:40:37pm
re: Question about precancels
@1898
"you did not say if they were local or bureau issued precancels"
I take back some of the nasty things I said about Scott's and precancels, my bad for not looking carefully enough!!!
In each series of definatives they give a list of any bureau cancels that they know exist. The fact they don't give a number is fine, at least I know what might be out there. Once you know where to look it appears they consistently do this. For example for certain issues they even tell you how many different bureau precancels exist. I think they only do bureau precancels which according to a previous post here started in 1916. I have 70 precancels of the 1923 BLACK 2 CENT HARDING and they don't mention a precancel so maybe, and I'm just guessing, they are all local. I would also guess that many stamps have both types but I think Scott's just gives the bureau ones. I'm new at precancels so I am still learning! I really don't plan on delving into all of the complicated parts of this, at least not yet!
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03:41:56pm
re: Question about precancels
On Ebay this morning is the book I recommended, see attached.
1898
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06 Oct 2023
07:20:39pm
re: Question about precancels
By looking at the stamps themselves how can you tell the difference between the local and bureau precancels? I've been checking out the early precancels I have which should be local because of the date. I was expecting the early ones to be cruder with thicker lines and not as well done in general. This isn't what I found. I don't have access to a scanner at this point but some of the early precancels are done with very fine lines and incredibly precise printing. Without looking at books and lists from books I don't see any way to tell them apart easily. My guess is that most of the cruder attempts are probably local but not all the better ones are bureau precancels. Does anyone know a sure way to tell without resorting to lists from books? Just curious!!
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re: Question about precancels
Harvey,
You can usually tell by the style of the precancel, at least on US stamps. Have a look at this page, and it will give you a quick overview of the various US styles of precancels out there and which are bureaus and which are locals. https://www.precancels.com/styles/
disclosure - am a precancel fanatic and a member of PSS.
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07:55:01am
re: Question about precancels
Allen
Thankyou...I have a few precancels and this is a excellent bit of info
Cheryl
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07 Oct 2023
08:50:28am
re: Question about precancels
I know you can usually tell but I've got a few that I'm sure are local that are exceptionally well done. I'll add a scan in a couple days for stamp #300 that is before the bureau precancels were done.
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re: Question about precancels
1898
"I'm not sure what you question is, but I'll try: It means at the time 1847 Wheeling was located in VA, sometime later that part of VA became a state called West VA."
No, I guess I didn't phrase my question well. (I know the history of WVA becoming a state carved from VA).
what was the purpose of precancelling the stamps? and were they done prior being affixed, after, etc. I assume that this is related to optional pre-payment at the time 1 and 2 were issued, but maybe you can shed light on this.
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11:04:18pm
re: Question about precancels
@amsd
Sorry I cannot shed any light for you.
I did scan the entire article for you, it's short!
I'm still not sure what you want (maybe I'm extra dense tonight), but only a suggestion, there must some group interested in the history/usages/reasons for precancels on line. This was only a suggestion don't go postal on me like someone else interested in precancels here on SOR!
1898
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08 Oct 2023
08:43:56am
re: Question about precancels
Thanks 1898, a short but very interesting clip! Greatly appreciated and something to watch out for.
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re: Question about precancels
"...what was the purpose of precancelling the stamps?..."
One reason, aside from mail handling efficiency and cost savings, was as a deterrent of employee theft of company stamps.
Don
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08 Oct 2023
07:19:44pm
re: Question about precancels
Here is a scan for three US #300 precancels. The one in the middle doesn't show up well, it should be a nice crisp "Dayton Ohio" on two lines inside two horizontal lines. It really looks too well defined to be a local scan, even though you can't see that here!! Too bad!!
The Scranton Penna. definitely looks like a local scan as does the one with three lines.
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21 Oct 2023
04:27:51pm
re: Question about precancels
I'm curious about something!! I've finally finished sorting the precancels by state by putting each state in a separate envelope. The next step will be to put them in a large stock book by state and within that by city/town. I noticed something a bit odd during the original sorting. There are some states that have very few precancels, smaller populated states like Hawaii, Rhode Island, Alaska and several others I can understand. My problem is that some of the higher populated states are grossly under represented, states like Texas, California and Florida along with others. Also almost nothing from either of the Carolina states. Has any other precancel collector noticed that the # of precancels has very little to do with the populations? Also Massachusetts seems to be over represented because of the huge number from Boston, the only cities that I would probably have more from are New York and Chicago. Just curious!!
EDIT: Please don't recommend I just buy a book to get this information. I do plan to do that if I decide to extend the collection I already have.
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re: Question about precancels
Since precancels were made mostly for businesses that did large volumes of mail order business, you'll find the largest concentration of precancels in the areas with businesses that operated that way. Massachusetts had many in the first half of the century.
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21 Oct 2023
06:04:12pm
re: Question about precancels
Allen, that certainly makes sense! I guess I keep forgetting what they were used for!
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24 Oct 2023
05:05:45pm
re: Question about precancels
I've finally finished organizing the large precancel collection in a large stock book. There were seven pages for New York and also a large number for Illinois, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts and, for some reason, New Jersey. I ended up with one stamp each for Alaska, West Virginia and Wyoming. There is about half a page of ones that, as of yet, I can't identify. He also had about thirty perfins that I have to identify and a small number of silent precancels.
I also figured out another area to try to collect. I really like the series of precancels in the series starting with Scott #300. I have four precancels from the series, #'s 300, 302, 306 and 309. I'm going to try to find some more since I really like the series and it seems to usher in precancels as we recognize them today. They would all be local precancels since the bureau versions were not produced yet. Scott's US Specialized lists Bureau precancels only as far as I can figure out. I really don't want to buy a book on precancels yet but can anyone provide me a list of which stamps in that series exist as local precancels?
I also now have a Canada precancel from each province (8) that were produced and now I'll try to find one of each type listed in Unitrade. I don't really want to spend much money on this, it's just purely for fun!! There were only a very limited number of towns and cities that issued precancels. One from each might be possible but I haven't decided yet!! Fun yet to come!!
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09:37:30pm
re: Question about precancels
There are alot of Scott number 279's also with very attractive precancels!
1898
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24 Oct 2023
09:44:20pm
re: Question about precancels
"There are alot of Scott number 279's also with very attractive precancels!"
I'm sure you're right about this, but I still like the series starting with #300. Could you show a scan of #279 as a precancel?
You're right, there are a bunch of them on E-Bay, but I still am interested in the #300 series! I will probably pick up a 279, thanks!!
Bought this one for $5, I like the way it's set up. I don't have one like this so thanks for the information!
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/394876559250
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01:10:23am
re: Question about precancels
I can't show you one as that's in the second truck load of stuff from Texas, maybe some time in November or December!
1898
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25 Oct 2023
08:03:34am
re: Question about precancels
@1898 No problem, there are lots of pictures on line and I picked one up last night! I actually didn't have a proper copy of Scott #279, the one in my album is actually 279a which is the fairly uncommon vertical watermark version. I'd forgotten that until I actually looked at the stamp. Thanks for your help and information!!!
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25 Oct 2023
08:26:31am
re: Question about precancels
I figured this large group of stamps would end up giving me most of the state capitals but I only have 29 / 50 so I'll be keeping a close eye on any precancels offered here. I'd prefer to pick up as many as possible on SOR but I think several of them will be difficult to find. I think in many cases the fact that state capitals are not large industrial towns or cities will make their precancels a bit more rare. I have large numbers of stamps from states like Missouri and New Jersey and a few others without having the state capital. A bit of searching left to do!!
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re: Question about precancels
Good morning Harvey,
I came across this thread from 2019. Check the post from Don. Some information on Canadian precancels you can use.
https://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_ma ...
Vince
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25 Oct 2023
10:14:24am
re: Question about precancels
Thanks Vince, greatly appreciated! I haven't made my mind up yet how far to go with the Canada precancels. The list of towns and cities is useful, I think it's in another post but I'll cut and paste this one and file it away so I don't lose it. Thanks again for the help!!!!
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01:14:11pm
re: Question about precancels
Scott number 300 there are lots of plate varieties found.
1898
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25 Oct 2023
02:43:06pm
re: Question about precancels
I'm not really concerned about plate varieties for the series. I have the entire series from #300 - #313 with a few varieties and am happy with that. What I have decided to do is pick up at least one precancel for each stamp in the series that I can. I collect way too many areas to worry about all the varieties unless I am lucky enough to end up with one. But I do like the series very much with it's intricate engraving and looking for the precancels keeps my interest going in the series. I much prefer classic stamps and really don't like the "photographed" stuff being produced now. There are a few exceptions but not many!! Thanks for your help with #279, very interesting type of precancel!
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03:21:59pm
re: Question about precancels
Somehow you missed my point!
As you are looking for precancels to add to your collection often you will find plate varieties that are unrecognized by the seller.
I never buy plate varieties as such, only purchase unrecognized examples, especially rare ones!
1898
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26 Oct 2023
10:06:40pm
re: Question about precancels
I'm just curious if anyone knows whether this type of "wheel" precancel was just done in Michigan (the auto industry) or whether it was used anywhere else. I also have two precancels that look absolutely normal except they were printed in red. I don't think it was common since I haven't seen others except for the transportation series and the two I have are on older items, the two cent black Harding and is shown in this set of comments.
https://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_ma ...
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11:38:41pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: Question about precancels
BTW I only really collect the Bureau Precancels and a few of the other odds and sods that come across my desk. I've not really got into the Town and Type cancels .
That being said I did get gifted a older Town and Type catalog seveth edition 2007 that I sort of feel bad having it just sitting on the shelf gathering dust. So if you'd like it just let me know and I will mail it off to you no charge ( always glad to help others with their new addictions !!!! )
Bob
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re: Question about precancels
That one is a local precancel, type L-1 E for Jackson, so yes that would be the only town you'd find it.
-Allen
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re: Question about precancels
This webpage is interesting - its by member Ralph Heymsfeld;
http://www.hobbizine.com/precancel.html
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27 Oct 2023
08:32:29am
re: Question about precancels
I have a picture saved from a lot I bid on and missed because of price. There were several of that precancel included plus another interesting one. I'll post it again below!! It's a little fuzzy but the one in the bottom row is interesting. Most of these are local precancels because of the date of the stamps.
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12:33:41pm
re: Question about precancels
@Harvey
Your Jackson MI appears to be type 1, is this correct?
There are lots of local precancels that I find attractive, I'll only show a few of the many examples from the book. The book also gives background and other information.
1898
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27 Oct 2023
01:49:41pm
re: Question about precancels
1898 Thanks for showing these!!
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29 Oct 2023
09:30:08am
re: Question about precancels
A different question! A couple months ago when I was starting with precancels I bought a collection of about 70 copies of the 1923 2 cent black Harding stamps (#610 or 612) with various precancels including two red ones which was my main reason for buying them. Later I bought a collection of about 3500 precancels and there were absolutely no 2 cents black Hardings there. This seem a bit odd to me!! Are these stamps a bit hard to find or was it a total fluke? I'll re-post a fairly blurry picture of the collection below.
I was thinking the larger collection had quite a few of these but they were actually a black 7 cent Roosevelt from a later series (#639).
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12:23:40pm
re: Question about precancels
Very difficult question you asked. My guess without more information is it's just a fluke.
1898
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29 Oct 2023
12:28:32pm
re: Question about precancels
@1898 That would be my guess as well, but it still seems a bit odd. Also these would have to be local cancels since the Scott's lists the stamps that have bureau cancels.
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re: Question about precancels
Harvey,
There is a contingent of collectors that specialize in collecting precancels on the Black Harding issue. There's even a specialized catalog for them. That would probably explain the lack of them in the lot you bought, while also explaining the lot of nothing but Black Hardings.
-Allen
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30 Oct 2023
07:59:14am
re: Question about precancels
Thanks Allen! It makes sense now but I had no idea!! It seems like I must have ended up buying the collection of someone from the "Black Harding Club"! There also seem to be very few of them for sale on line!
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30 Oct 2023
11:15:51am
re: Question about precancels
How about the two red lettered precancels? They are the only two I have run into, one from Danvers, Mass. and the other I can't read. If we limit ourselves to precancels as we know them, say from just before 1900, and ignore the older material, has anyone run into red lettering before? I'm also ignoring the newer series like the transportation series, etc. So lets go from about 1898 (#279) up to my 1976 cutoff. Are there many precancels in colours other than black? Also ignore the NY, NY postage dues with the string of pearls in blue. I am getting a book soon which might help but I'm curious mostly about the two 2 cent black Hardings I have in red.
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re: Question about precancels
Somebody might have better information than me on this, but it's my understanding that most colored precancels are "favor" cancels done when a collector visits a post office and requests an impression of a particular device. I have a number that are in purple and green, though I don't recall any in red.
-Allen
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04:50:44pm
re: Question about precancels
See Scan for right and proper colored precanx info. There way too many for me to scan all the info! Besides you cannot believe everything you read in a book.
1898
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30 Oct 2023
05:22:14pm
re: Question about precancels
@1898 I assume the scan is from the book by Gunesch you showed earlier. It looks like I'll have to pick up a copy. There are a couple on E-Bay and I did a "saved search" to keep my eyes open for a while for a reasonable shipping price. One of the two isn't too bad but it won't hurt to wait a bit. I know "you can't believe everything you read in a book" but this one might be worth having. Thanks for the response!! To use your words, it looks like a "right and proper" book to have! I am not making fun of you, you did me a big favour with your response! Thanks!!
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re: Question about precancels
Hey Harvey,
I have been organizing my library and found a duplicate copy of "Guide to Precancel Collecting" by Gunesch. Send me a pm with your address and I will get it in the mail.
Vince
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02 Nov 2023
02:33:48pm
re: Question about precancels
Thanks Vince, greatly appreciated!!
EDIT: This site really is amazing, there are many very helpful people here. As a matter of fact, most of you are very helpful!! Thanks very much!
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07 Nov 2023
03:15:17pm
re: Question about precancels
I was just sent copies of "The Precancel Stamp Society's Town and Type Catalog ... " Seventh Edition and "Silent Precancels..." by David Smith by Bob Bidner. I hope Bob doesn't mind me using his name. Incredible reference books! I'm not sure how far I wanted to go with US precancels but the sky's the limit now. I didn't realize how many towns and cities had precancels. I would think it was impossible to collect them all, maybe some people just concentrate on a state or two! And the one on silent precancels is very impressive as well! I'm not sure whether to thank Bob or not, I've got some decisions to make!
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13 Nov 2023
05:29:43pm
re: Question about precancels
Just curious about something. I admit I have been a bit lazy and haven't looked for the answer myself yet! Did they do precancels on the Kansas and Nebraska overprints : Scott #'s 658 to 679? I've never seen one so I'm curious if anyone else has. The Scott's specialized doesn't mention any bureau precancels but I'm curious if any locals exist.
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re: Question about precancels
They do, indeed, and they are exceedingly hard to come by.
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14 Nov 2023
12:22:36pm
re: Question about precancels
Thanks for showing Allen, a great item!!!
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14 Nov 2023
10:06:24pm
re: Question about precancels
I was checking out precancels of 2 cent black Hardings and ran into this one!!
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/285222369144
I think, since no certificate is offered I might pass!
Edit: I was looking at his other pictures and he's trying to present a good argument but would any sensible person who thought they had such a valuable item try to sell it without a certificate? Sounds a bit crazy to me!!
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re: Question about precancels
Wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole, even if I had that kind of money. Can't trust anyone that refers to a precancel as "mint".
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15 Nov 2023
03:31:32pm
re: Question about precancels
I just got the Ganesch book from Vinman a few minutes ago in the mail, thanks Vince! It looks like it's going to be a very useful book. Lots of great information! I'm still not sure how deep I'm going to go into US precancels but with the books members have sent me the sky's the limit. So far I'm doing one/state (complete), state capitals (35/50) and the Scott #300 series (not going to do the last 4 due to cost so only need one). I have to figure out where to go from there. I have a good selection of silent precancels and about 70 from the two cent Hardings. I might pick a state or two and try for a reasonable selection. I'm going to have to figure out where to go with Canada as well. One per province was easy with only 8 and there were not many cities or towns that issued them (about 50 I think) so that might be doable unless some are very rare! What to do????
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22 Dec 2023
10:09:56pm
re: Question about precancels
Just picked this up for just over $20 on E-Bay. This is my second one like this and I think it's really "COOL"!! If I remember correctly all of these are from Jackson Michigan!!
EDIT: I now have 40 / 50 of the state cancels - getting there!!
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07 Jan 2024
06:32:33pm
re: Question about precancels
Another question! I've been looking through my large collection of US precancels and noticed that a few (very few) have been postally cancelled. Would this have been due to a mistake on the part of the post office worker or the sender? How common is this?
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re: Question about precancels
It's fairly common, and usually a result of an inattentive post office clerk. It's rather annoying when the cancellation is so heavy I can't read the precancel.
-Allen
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14 Mar 2024
04:21:38pm
re: Question about precancels
Another question! I am interested in precancels from the US series Scott #300 - 313. I have already #300 - 309 and will probably stop there due to the price of the four higher denominations. Thanks to a member I have several books on US precancels but there is one question that I'm curious about. The Scott's Specialized US catalog only deals with bureau precancels so it doesn't touch this early series. Can anyone tell me with towns or cities issued precancels for 310 to 313. I'm fairly sure about Chicago and New York being possibles but I keep seeing Philadelphia on line. Does anyone have access to a list of cities for these four stamps?
EDIT: I've also seen San Francisco associated with one of the four stamps. I can't remember which one!
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
22 Mar 2024
03:24:30pm
re: Question about precancels
Found an interesting precancel on E-Bay a little while ago printed upside down. I know it really doesn't add much, if anything, to the value but I'm working on getting a set of precancels for this series and liked that this one was a little odd!
It's a bit fuzzy but it's for Minneapolis / Minn.
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re: Question about precancels
The invert doesn't really add anything to the value, but some folks will collect every variety including normal and invert and some splits (a precancel that was applied across two stamps, showing parts of two different impressions). It reveals a bit about the layout of the device used to apply the precancel.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
23 Mar 2024
07:00:32pm
re: Question about precancels
I can find pictures online for precancels of Scott's #'s 310 (usually Chicago), 311 (usually Philadelphia) and 312 (usually San Francisco) but I can not find a precancel of the $5 stamp. Does anyone know if it exists and from which city? The first three are affordable (barely for the third one), the fourth one should be very pricey!! I'm really not sure if I want to pursue these or not! NOTE: I do not own the stamps shown below!!
EDIT: I still can't find my last three US capital precancels - Frankfort, Dover and Carson City. They must be very scarce but I refuse to give up hope!! I'm getting very stubborn!!
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
24 Mar 2024
10:03:23pm
re: Question about precancels
If you look above quite a ways you will see the collection of 2 cent black Hardings that I bought a few months ago. Two are done in red - Jacksonville Fla. and Danvers Mass. Both are mentioned in Gunesch as existing in red. I am forever searching online for precancels and have never run into red precancels and even 2 cent Hardings are rare to see. Does anyone have precancels done in red that you could show a scan of? I'll have to go through Gunesch more carefully to see which others exist. I remember when I started on precancels I was warned it was easy to get caught up in. You were right, it is very easy to get carried away!!!!
EDIT: Several are mentioned to exist in red but they seem to be fairly rare. Purple also seems to be a commonly mentioned colour but can be difficult to tell from black. Violet and blue are also mentioned. The only blue I have is NY's "chain of pearls". Green is also mentioned a couple times. Does anyone have some coloured precancels you can share?
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
25 Mar 2024
04:50:57pm
re: Question about precancels
I've been going through this collection cataloging what's actually there. There are a few I can't fully read and more research is needed. None are really repeated but there are a few where I have an inverted precancel and a regular precancel of the same place. There are two in red which according to my small amount of research are the only two done in red (Jacksonville Fla. and Danvers Mass.). Please correct me if I'm wrong. There's a few that read up or down instead of across and a couple that are split over two stamps. I'm not sure if I want to take this much further since I bought the lot as a collection on E-Bay but if I see a few more 2 cent black Hardings I might go for it. Someone spent a lot of time on this already, it wouldn't hurt to go a bit further!
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re: Question about precancels
Still looking through my collection for other colors, but here's one done in purple. It is also what one would call an invert.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
26 Mar 2024
09:31:21am
re: Question about precancels
Just picked up this nice block of the Black 2 cent Harding with a nice purple or violet precancel for Springfield Mass. for a fair price of $10. It's not mentioned in Gunesch with their coloured cancels but it looks fine to me, knock on wood!!!
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re: Question about precancels
Just had to share this one with you that I purchased this morning. Bluefield, WV - Scott #610 PSS type 454
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
27 Mar 2024
07:20:23am
re: Question about precancels
Nice stamp Allen. I assume you do the same thing as I do and display the inverts upside down!! Seems obvious!
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re: Question about precancels
Here's another purple precancel from Laura, IL PSS type L-1 HS.
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27 Mar 2024
10:28:40pm
re: Question about precancels
I was just checking out my album and noticed that one of my collection of about a douzen Shermack coils is a precancel. I wouldn't really expected that these coils dispensed by vending machines would have many precancels unless of course the company using coils from that machine had it loaded with precancels at some time. I know there are several types of these special coils and I wonder if anyone out there can show me any precanceled coils connected to what my Scott's US Specialized calls "Vending and Affixing Machine Perforations". My small collection is Shermack Type III, the rectangular holes, and Gunesch acknowledges that precancels exist but it gives no indication how common they may be. Just curious!
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re: Question about precancels
I'm not basing this on a catalogue or any scientific method, but given what I've seen while looking around, there are quite a few Schermack precancels out there. There were other types of private perforations that are particularly rare that are only known to exist with precancels, the NYC Boy Scout coil being the most famous one that comes to mind. https://stampauctionnetwork.com/y/y92028 ...
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re: Question about precancels
Joe & Allen,
I checked my copy of "Guide to United States Vending and Affixing Machine Perforations 1907 - 1927". There are several references to precancels in the Index. When I get some time I will go through the listings and post what I find, hopefully later today.
Here are a few Precancels on private vending perforations from my collection. The first stamp is a Mailometer Type IV and the rest are Shermack.
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re: Question about precancels
I have a copy of George P. Howard's book "The Stamp Machines and Coiled Stamps", copyright 1943. There are some listings of precancelled stamps in it. I'll see what info I can get from it.
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28 Mar 2024
09:48:11am
re: Question about precancels
Great stamps Vince, thanks for posting!!!
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re: Question about precancels
Here is a list I compiled from "Guide to United States Vending and Affixing Machine Perforations 1907 - 1927" by Steven R. Belasco.
Private Vending Precancels
Shermack Type IV
343 - Chicago, IL
Fort Wayne, IN
383 – Ashland, OH
Chicago, IL
Covington, KY (2 types)
Flint, MI
Fort Wayne, IN (single and double print)
Saint Louis, MO
384 – Cleveland, OH
Saint Louis, MO
483 – Willoughby, VT (possibly as a request item)
531 – Chicago, IL (normal and inverted)
Flint, MI
New York, NY (2 types)
532 - New York, NY
533 – New York, NY
534 - New York, NY
534A – New York, NY
575 - Chicago, IL (2 types, normal and inverted)
Maysville, KY
Gettysburg, PA
576 - Chicago, IL (single And double prints)
577 – Forest City, IA
Mailometer Type I
343 – Saint Louis, MO (normal and inverted)
Mailometer Type IA
383 – Saint Louis, MO
Mailometer Type IV
343 – Saint Louis, MO
383 – Saint Louis, MO(single, double and inverted prints)
384 – saint Louis, MO
408 – Saint Louis, MO (two types, double on one type)
409 - Saint Louis, MO
Farwell Group 4 Perforations
408 – Chicago, IL (this is the only precancel on a Farwell coil)
Edit- The book I was using gives no indication of rarity.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
29 Mar 2024
11:09:10am
re: Question about precancels
Thanks Vince, your expertise is appreciated as always. I am still not sure how far I want to go into US precancels but I have cut and pasted this and filed it away in case I run into more of this material. I have two Shermack precancels, I found another one yesterday, and would pick up a few more if the chance arose. It would be nice to have a couple of the Mailometers to give a bit more variety. I think they might be a bit harder to find at a reasonable price but you never know. Thanks again for all your help!
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re: Question about precancels
Harvey - have been enjoying watching you get sucked farther and farther into precancels. Think this is how lots of us get into areas we never intended to….
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
30 Mar 2024
10:59:56am
re: Question about precancels
It is kind of hard to know when to stop!! I treat this as a fun part of my collection so I am hesitant to spend scads of $$$ on it. Anyone who decides to collect all precancels is attempting an almost impossible task. I'm going to try to stick with state capitals, Canada's towns/cities, Canada's numbered precancels, the US series from #300 - #312, and a smattering of other types. I might pick up a few more of the Shermacks if the price is right. It is a fun area with all sorts of interesting side areas. If I was an American I might try to collect my state but for some US states like NY, California, etc. that would be almost impossible. What I find a bit confusing is why a state like Texas seems to have so few precancels. I sort of like the Canada lined cancels but even there getting one of each is fairly easy. Imagine trying to get one of each US silent precancels!! A real big task!!! Precancels are fun but you have to figure out where to draw the line!!
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
01 Apr 2024
12:27:11pm
re: Question about precancels
I picked up two precancels the other day for my collection. One is a Michigan shield precancel to add to my collection of the series starting at Scott #300 and the other is a Cincinnati round precancel to add to my collection of different precancels. The Cincinnati one is fairly common but the shield precancel is a bit harder to find. Pictures follow!! I really like the shield precancels, all from Jackson, but only picked this one up to add to my collection of the #300 series. I really am trying to stick with my areas I decided to collect. The Cincinnati one was picked up because I wanted an example of that particular precancel (L - 4E). I guess L - 5E is similar except it is spaced for parcel post. Can anyone show an example of the two side by side?
EDIT: I know that the corner of the Cincinnati precancel is missing but for precancels, as long as the price is reasonable, I don't let that bother me. I know some people would have a problem with this, but I don't.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
01 Apr 2024
02:23:03pm
re: Question about precancels
I saw this on E-Bay and thought someone might be interested. I have a nice precancel from Canal Zone and don't want another one. You don't seem to see them very often and the price seems fair!
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/225678706673
EDIT: Just checked again! It's gone.
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re: Question about precancels
I have to admit, I've been tempted to start yet another side collection of "odd" precancels that are something other than bars or lines with a town and state name. Like this one:
It's actually a map of the railroad lines branching out from Lansing.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
02 Apr 2024
07:12:10am
re: Question about precancels
I saw one like this for sale on E-Bay a while ago as part of a Michigan lot. There were also a few of the shield type there. The lot went fairly high and I wished I had bid more!!! This is an image of the lot. It was at the beginning of my precancel collecting. If I knew then what I think I know now I would have put in a higher bid. Five shields and the railway hub should have been at least a $100 bid. I can't remember what they sold for. I'm trying to stay away from precancels that are only lines and a place name and look for odd ones!
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re: Question about precancels
If you see one of those "Railway Hub" precancels on Scott #300, I need it!
Also your Canal Zone stamp isn't a precancel. From 1903 onward Canal Zone used US stamps overprinted like this. Check your Scotts.
Here is Canal Zone #4 on postcard. This usage is quite rare as the stamp was only in use a few months.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
03 Apr 2024
03:40:28pm
re: Question about precancels
thanks Tom, that was a bit stupid of me. I actually have the stamp as part of my Canal Zone collection from 1939! I just got all "befuddled"!!
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
04 Apr 2024
11:47:02am
re: Question about precancels
I do have a copy of Canal Zone 113 that has "CRISTOBAL / CANAL ZONE" between two horizontal lines. I'm sorry I can't show a scan at the moment but this would be a legitimate precancel for the community on the Atlantic side of the canal. I am searching for one that says "COLON / CANAL ZONE" for the terminus on the Pacific end. I can find several pictures for Christobal but not for Colon. Does anyone know if it even exists and could you show a scan if you have it? The one I have is the last one in the picture below. This picture was "borrowed" from online!!
EDIT: My gut tells me that Christobal is the only CZ precancel since they are the only ones I can find pictures for.
Here's another picture showing a few more precancels.
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re: Question about precancels
Joe,
You are correct, the PSS Town and Type catalog only lists Cristobal for Canal Zone. There are other territories of the US that have issued precancels including Puerto Rico, American Samoa, Guam, Marshall Islands, Palau, Virgin Islands, Micronesia, the Marianas, and Canton Island. Puerto Rico is by far the most numerous of these, though the sum total of all precancels from the territories is only 71 different from 35 different towns. There is even a bureau precancel for San Juan, PR.
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re: Question about precancels
Allen -
I will add to your excellent post...
Scanned below is a block from my WW block collection showing a San Juan, Puerto Rico precancel, with the addition of SRC and date markings from the Sears, Roebuck, and Company.
Sears Roebuck de Puerto Rico, Inc., or just Sears de Puerto Rico, was founded in 1961, as a subsidiary to the main Sears, Roebuck, and Company. It would serve to operate Sears stores in Puerto Rico, and the Virgin Islands. Sears had a presence throughout many countries in Latin America.
My block below shows that there are additional variations of precancels to be discovered out there from the US territories.
Linus
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
05 Apr 2024
03:07:58pm
re: Question about precancels
I have a similar stamp from the same series, the 1 1/2 cent coil. There is no date but between the two horizontal lines is SAN JUAN / P. R. I'll post a scan of the stamp from on line. I won't have access to my scanner/photo person until Sunday!!
EDIT: There is a good sized lot of Puerto Rico precancels on E-Bay right now but the picture is very fuzzy. It's easy to find if anyone is interested. Here's the link: https://www.ebay.ca/itm/176306378389
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re: Question about precancels
Joe,
That particular precancel is the one and only bureau precancel for Puerto Rico. It doesn't have the dated control on it because they were only required for stamps denominated 7 cents or higher and later on for a total postage cost of greater than 15 cents. Those dates and company initials were added by the company as a requirement starting sometime (can't remember exact date) in 1938. SRC is probably the most common company to have used those, but there are many. That, too, is a specialized area of precancel collecting with some rather devout adherents! There is also a catalog and database available for these called the Printed Dated Control Type Catalog.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
07 Apr 2024
03:03:38pm
re: Question about precancels
I don't know if I've asked this before but is this one of the earliest precancels as we know them? It is from Scott #279 from the 1898 series.
I picked it up for about $10 several months ago and was happy with the price since, to me, it seemed reasonable. I looked it up in the "Precancel Stamp Society's Town and Type Catalog of the United States and Territories", 2007 edition and it is, I think, L - 2 TS and lists for the sum of $0.25 USD!!! Out of curiosity what does the 2 - 2 signify?
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07 Apr 2024
06:53:11pm
re: Question about precancels
I know I'm asking way too many questions but would this set of Park Series precancels for Fall River Mills Cal. be examples of ones done as a favour for some person or company? You don't learn unless you ask!! This and the matching Farley series is one of my favourite series which is why I picked this up. Has anyone seen it before?
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re: Question about precancels
Joe,
The Chicago precancel is what is known a "classic dated precancel" and there were 20 cities that used them from 1901 - 1902, though one persisted all the way to 1915. The "2-2" is the month and year of use, so February 1902. This died out as a practice quickly because if there were any stamps leftover at the end of the month, they couldn't be used according to postal regulations of the time. Dating came back with a vengeance in 1938 when the Postmaster General made the practice mandatory (along with a three letter company designator) for any stamps denominated 7c or higher.
The Farley's with precancels are definitely "favors", for two reasons. First precanceling commemoratives was highly frowned upon by the USPOD and only legitimately happened with companies that accepted postage as payment for goods and then turned around and precanceled them for use on their own mail. Second, the precancel style shown on those stamps wasn't issued until about 25 years after the stamps themselves. Having said that, there are quite a few collectors that go out of their way to collect this stuff. I'm not one of them.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
08 Apr 2024
11:37:08am
re: Question about precancels
Thanks Allen, great answers as always! The only reason I picked up the series of National Park Series favour precancels was because I really like the series and thought these were interesting. I really like that series and the Farley imperfs that follow it. I have a large collection of connected stamps and am always ready to add more. A few days ago Greg had a complete set of plate numbered blocks of six from the perforated series and I couldn't resist! I really don't know why I like that material and the prices are usually very fair!
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
09 Apr 2024
10:26:20pm
re: Question about precancels
This is not really a question, just a comment. A few months ago I bought a huge collection of precancels from my local dealer and organized them by state in the largest stock book I could find, a 64 pager!! I was watching a show on YouTube and was glancing through this book again. I was amazed by the number of different kinds of precancels - different numbers and thicknesses of lines, number of lines of script, word clearness and thickness, some dated and some not, some with company(?) initials, some perfins, some postmarked but most not, inverts, splits and many other varieties. I wonder how long it will take to actually sort all this stuff out properly, if I ever do. I think collecting precancels properly would be a full time job!! This collector also had an area specially set aside for silent precancels, a complicated area on it's own. I'll have to think actually doing a better job separating the collection. What I found a bit odd was that there was not one 2 cent black Harding, they must be a bit scarce and not one coloured variety except with some of the newer items. It's a very complicated area!!
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
15 Apr 2024
05:51:46pm
re: Question about precancels
Doing a bit more research on a very complicated area - precancels. In the picture below it appears that the third stamp is actually a silent precancel from Dayton, Ohio. I think I will stay away from trying to figure out and collect silent precancels!!
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re: Question about precancels
Silent precancels are definitely not the easiest branch of precanceling. I've spent hours in the catalog and still be unable to make a decision on where one comes from. There's way too much variability in the way the devices were used, and sometimes the "device" in question was merely a brush or a pen. Having said that, I have a deep fascination with them. This one is my favorite so far.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
16 Apr 2024
12:55:53pm
re: Question about precancels
Allen, a gorgeous stamp with the shaded star. I was sent a book on Silent Precancels by Bob Bidner ( Silent Precancels by David Smith, 1995) and the only stars shown are either hollow, solid or beveled. Yours is not shown but I doubt if the book is totally complete! I would guess 90% of the precancels are lines of various number and thickness and most of them are stamp specific. I would not have the patience to measure the width of lines and distances between them. You also have to watch out for pen, brush, crayon or chalk!!
Here's the question! How do you tell the difference between a fancy cancel and a silent precancel? I am just going to pick up a few interesting examples and not worry too much about IDing them. In other words an accumulation instead of a collection. There is a cancellation called a "wheel of fortune (?)" that if it were well centered on the stamp it would easily pass as a silent precancel if you didn't have a catalog. This area is way too complicated for me!!
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
16 Apr 2024
03:15:18pm
re: Question about precancels
Just got this nice double hit for $3.52, I'm real pleased with that!!
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re: Question about precancels
Wow, it's rare to see a double quite so clear! Nice find.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
16 Apr 2024
04:32:51pm
re: Question about precancels
Finding it was a total piece of luck. One of the three state capitals I'm missing is Dover Delaware. I quite often search "Dover precancel" and came up with this Dover Ohio double strike and thought "Why not" and picked it up on my opening bid! I really like the stamp!!!!
EDIT: There is also a Dover New Jersey that comes up fairly often!! Being a Canadian I got a big kick out of finding Ottawa, Kansas as a post mark. I also proved that Newfoundland does have a precancel - of course it was a US town called Newfoundland!!!
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re: Question about precancels
Joe,
Check out page 28-32 in this exhibit. Precancels and perfins on the "Kansas/Nebraska overprints.
https://www.rfrajola.com/Hadley/Hadley.p ...
if anyone has an interest in the Kansas/Nebraska overprints this exhibit will blow you away.
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re: Question about precancels
I like precancels on lighter colored stamps. I collect 565 and 695. There are plenty of precancels out there but the cancels just don't show up over the dark blue ink.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
22 Apr 2024
04:14:25pm
re: Question about precancels
As most US collectors do I have the two series of the regular stamps. I have never had a huge interest in prefins but it would be fantastic to locate a precancel. A fantastic article that I'll bookmark for later. Thanks very much!!
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
25 Apr 2024
10:08:27pm
re: Question about precancels
Another question! I have a few precancels that are pretty well unreadable due to fading or poor striking. Is there a way to make the overprint show up better? I haven't used my black light for ages and have no idea where it is. Would the design show up better under a black light or is there some other way to enhance the image without damaging the stamp. I am especially interested in a 2 cent black Harding that I got with a lot of Puerto Rico precancels. I would really like it to be an example from that area but it is totally unreadable! Any ideas?
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re: Question about precancels
You can try Image Sleuth, it replaced Retro Reveal. It's pretty simple to use. You will need to download the program.
https://www.thestampweb.com/imagesleuth
I use it to help read lightly struck markings.
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re: Question about precancels
Chances are it's unreadable for everyone, but you never know. Post a hi-res pic of the stamp and see if anyone else can make it out. I've done that a few times with pretty good results on the Facebook PSS group. For the real stumpers, we save them for the PSS Zoom meetings and ask the whiz guy, Phil Cayford, who seems to have a knack for reading the unreadable.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
26 Apr 2024
11:57:06am
re: Question about precancels
Not really a question but I recently finished the collection of precancels for the Scott series #300 - #313. I know this page will look ugly to some because it's crowded but it's the way I like to do pages. The regular series is there, the precancels from #300 - #312 since I don't think one exists for #313, a bunch of a's and b's and a couple nice oval registered postmarks. It's one of my favourite US pages and I look at it often!! Two of my favourite stamps on the page is the third stamp over in the top row, a nice silent precancel from Dayton Ohio, and the last stamp in the same row, a nice shield precancel from Jackson Michigan. The only way I would add to this set is if I could find more of these really odd precancels. But where would I put them???
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
26 Apr 2024
01:09:54pm
re: Question about precancels
"Chances are it's unreadable for everyone, but you never know."
I had a really good look at the stamp and noticed that the state started with W, the third letter was S and since it was 4 letters long it must be WISC for Wisconsin. I don't have that in the Black Hardings so that is GOOD!!
EDIT: I just found an Alaska precancel I didn't realize I had. I had Willow AK filed under Arkansas!! Stupid, or what?
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re: Question about precancels
"the state started with W, the third letter was C and since it was 4 letters long it must be WISC for Wisconsin"
"C" would be the fourth letter
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
27 Apr 2024
11:54:22am
re: Question about precancels
Sorry, I meant to say the third letter was an S, I have to be more careful!!!
My Bad! I'll go back and fix it!!
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