Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Most are made up precanceled items in my opinion, what you think?
I avoid CTO USA material, easy to avoid if common sense is employed (might require a little research!).
So does SOR members include CTO material in their collections? Do you mark it as such?
How do you fell when you find out you were cheated when you find out you stamp is a CTO, do you still keep it in your album?
1898
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I don’t look for or have any U.S. CTO mounted. I don’t really come across it that often. If I do, I look past it. I have one CTO U.S. full sheet that I only paid 1.00 for. It’s recent, the .44 cent era I think and a sheet whose stamps are hard to find individually. I would never use one of the CTO’s in my album, though.
Now worldwide, is a different story. Most of the recent stuff from poor countries is CTO. It’s stuff you buy cheap and is in the nice to look at category.
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@joesm
Thank you for your posting.
I'm staying away from foreign CTO stamps, way too many. In the past I notice lots of them were coming from Mexico and Canada and Europe. but guess it's different now as you said, good to know.
I still pick up some German stamps now and again, but I know right ones not to get (I think).
1898
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01:57:55pm
My US cut off is 1977 and for Canada 1988. I haven't noticed any CTO's but maybe I'm just not noticing. I collect Poland and Russia with 1985 cutoffs and I put up with CTO's for the newer material because my major concern is the classic material. Can anyone tell me when Canada and the US started issuing CTO's. I'm not talking precancels here, just regular issues. My gut tells me precancels are a totally different story, but maybe not, I really don't know!
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@Harvey
I think (but not sure) U.S.A. CTO's started with the precancels.
Regular issues is where you will find the CTO's along with precancels.
Did this answer your question?
I'm not sure that I understood your question.
1898
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04:03:44pm
Ignore precancels for a while, that's a bit different. I'm just wondering if for the regular issues of either commemoratives or definitives the postal service offers CTO's to collectors as many other countries do. It doesn't really affect me since most of my newer US and Canada is mint anyway, I'm just curious. It also probably doesn't affect me because of my cutoffs.
Now, back to precancels. If Joe Bloe were to walk into a postal station in the US or Canada with a cancel he made up himself and said cancel this sheet of stamps with this for me I assume they would have to refuse. Is the implication, like with my set of small town US precancels, that this was done just at the request of an individual and that the post office would do this? I'm pretty sure some workers would not see any harm in doing this. I know there are probably books that list the official precancels but I really don't want to get that far into this. As soon as I get my 50 states and protectorates this collection is finished. I might buy a few unusual items but not enough to warrant having a book. Besides, just because it's in a book doesn't mean it's true. A friend collects Queen's County N.S. post cards. He has a book listing all 400+ of them by a reputable collector. Tim has now passed 1200 cards. Also there are many books printed on post marks from various areas of the US and Canada and I doubt if any are totally complete. I've been told the ones for Nova Scotia are not. So why should a book on precancels be any different? I'm sure there must be many left to discover!
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@Harvey
I reread your posting, and deleted my posting, I find it difficult to right and proper understand your posting (totally my fault).
The precancel I'm talking about are the classic Local type, nothing after 1930!
If what you say is correct just because it's in a book doesn't make it true how do YOU decide what is true and what is bogus?
1898
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The thread shown below has a lot of information on early precancels ( called "silent" precancels because they don't show the town name. ). I owned the Gerry precancel as well as the precancel shown below. I sold them both t o David Smith - author of the book shown below.
https://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_ma ...
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05:58:31pm
Very Very interesting Henry!! I really do learn something from this site every day. Silent cancels would be much more obvious on cover than just on an individual stamp. I had never heard of them before!!! I'm not sure whether to thank you or not - something else to look for!!
Edit: Just had a look through my album and am pretty sure I have a couple, one with a bunch of straight lines going right across the stamp and one with a wide black line going across the stamp. Of course the ones with fancy cancels are also possible but there is no way of knowing unless it was on cover. When my scanning person comes back from visiting family in a couple weeks I'll post pictures/scans of the two I'm pretty sure of. I guess this article shows the real origin of precancels.
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06:42:58pm
I know that precancels are really the equivalent of CTO but I still would like to know "when did the US and Canada start doing CTO's as the European countries do it now, or did they? Regular stamps cancelled and sold to collectors, do they do that? If they do, when did it start? Since my more recent US and Canada are mint with cut offs, I have no idea!
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@Harvey
In the U. S. some time between 1860 and 1875. but this information is from books. You said "Besides, just because it's in a book doesn't mean it's true."
1898
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Precancels and CTOs are NOT the same thing.
Precancelling stamps allows a postal administration to bypass one or more steps in processing mail so franked. In the United States, unused precancelled stamps may be used for postage as long as the mailer has the appropriate permit to use them.
CTOs are stamps with cancellation markings that a given postal administration may then sell to collectors at a discount from face value. They are not valid for postage. AFIAK, the United States has never sold CTOs.
Edited to correct misspelling.
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04:20:09pm
I know the difference but after rereading the posts in this "string" I'm not sure if some people aren't assuming that precancels are the same as CTO's. When I think of CTO's I think of stamps cancelled so they could be sent to collectors. CTO's are not to be used in the post! Precancels are usable and allow the user to bypass postal facilities and just pop the items directly into the mail. That's the way I think about them anyway, but maybe I'm simplifying this too much!
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As stated precancels are, were, nothing like CTOs. A precancel user had to have a permit and precanceled stamps were valid for postage for permit holder only. They could not be resold by the permit holder. CTOs are items for collectors and not valid for postage, hence why they are despised by some collectors, having never actually been postally used. CTOs, as tommcf stated, are usually sheets canceled by the postal authority to be sold at a discount to collectors. This is contrasted with favor cancels, in which a collector purchases valid postage at full price, places the postage on a envelope, card, or other item and hands it back to the postal worker to cancel. I have several favor cancels of sets, mostly from Hungary, as it was common for collectors to acquire a new issue set in this manner back in the hey day of collecting, also from Switzerland for the pro patria and juventute issues. I don’t find those objectionable at all. But the CTOs created by certain countries, e.g., in the 1970s, are probably worth avoiding if possible. Nice works of art, per se, but not collectible postage IMO.
Edit: regarding favor cancels sets I referenced, I like the idea that someone in the past took the trouble to obtain these stamps, probably on the first day of issue, and had them favor canceled for their collection. Now I have that same set in my collection and there is a personal connection to the past between collectors. I suppose postally used would be better, but then you need how many covers for the same stamps, and how much additional space? For me, favor cancels have a place.
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06:56:58pm
Thanks Louis, great concise information stated so that anyone can understand the concept. That's a rare thing to be able to do!!
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10:16:36pm
Now that we know the difference between CTO and precancel can I ask a question I've been trying to get an answer to on another post for ages? I don't collect newer Canada or US so I've asked a couple times whether these two countries are issuing CTO's for collectors like many other countries are doing. And if so, for how long. In previous attempts I keep getting the answer that it has been going on since the start of precancels! In other words a very long time. I think the person answering the question, since he only deals with classic era stamps, didn't really understand what a cancelled to order stamp really is - a stamp issued for non postal use for collectors. So can anyone tell me 'Is Canada or the US issuing CTO's"?
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i am not aware of the US issuing CTOs. I believe all unsold stamps are destroyed.
And I am glad that others have made a distinction between CTOs and precancelled stamps. Other than having extra ink on them beyond the issued face, they neither look alike nor serve similar functions.
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09:44:19am
Thanks David and I'm almost positive you're right. I don't think Canada does CTO'S either.
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Note that the US Postal Service considers service inscribed stamps as precancelled even though there is no additional printing on the stamps. These include stamps inscribed "Nonprofit Org", "Presorted Standard", and "Presorted First-Class".
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In reply to Harvey, I don’t believe I’ve ever heard of the US issuing CTOs in the sense of the pre cancelled sheet, sold at a discount to collectors and not valid for postage. I think what adds confusion in forum discussions about CTOs is some people lump CTOs together with favor cancels. Whereas, you can always get a favor cancel at a US post office, I presume, unless the postal worker is clueless, however, you won’t find CTOs in the sense of what was common for some of the Emirates, Eastern European postal authorities, and third world countries issuing CTOs to collectors in the 1970s and I presume even later. There is a big difference and the confusion is sometimes a matter of semantics.
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Tom is correct, that the USPS considers service-inscribed stamps as pre-cancelled; they serve identical functions.
Of course, I wonder why an organization would change second and third class to the wildly inventive and descriptive Standard A and Standard B, but not come up with a new name for something that looks nothing like what preceded it.
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05:00:50pm
"service inscribed stamps"
Could someone show an example, I'm not exactly sure what you mean.
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@Poster
I'm not sure I know what you are referring to! If for some reason you might or might not be referring to a fiscal U. S. stamp in the 1914 Series, in your cat. look up R217
I hope this answers your question.
I suspect it does not answer your question, if this is true sorry, I tried!
1898
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Here is US Scott 2125 that has been service-inscribed. The mail service type is printed on the stamp, and counts as a precancel. In this case the service is "CAR-RT Sort Non Profit Org.".
This is opposed to just a standard non-profit precancel such as this US Scott# 2124
US Scott# 2256 - Another example of a service-inscribed stamp "Nonprofit"
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06:57:56pm
Never seen anything like this before. it must have started after my 1977 US cutoff!
Sorry, I am mistaken. I have the tow truck 8.5 cent coil with Nonprofit / org. , two lines with no containing bars, in with my collection of newer material and wondered what it was. Now I know, thanks!
Edit: The third one you show, the 8.4 cent, is postmarked. Is that a mistake since these are considered to be precancels?
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I believe in this case the stamps (it is a strip of 3) was used to make up the first class postage rate, so a cancel would have been appropriate in that case.
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09:39:36pm
One last thing about this - what's with all the crazy denominations: 5.5, 4.9, 8.4, 7.7, 8.5, 3.1, 3.5, 7.9, ... do they really serve a useful purpose?
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They were valid rates when they were issued. It certainly gave us US collectors more stamps to collect.
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Harvey,
there are tons of rates that one never sees except through meters or behind the scenes when paying off the remainder of a discounted rate partially paid by stamps.
Look at the metered envelopes you receive.
I have an oversized envelope from an insurance carrier paying the "presorted first class" rate; most rates actually change depending on the volume and density of the mailing. In this case, they paid 40.8c by meter. There is no current stamp that would pay that rate, in full or in combination.
One of our late members, Zeb Vance, had an immense collection of metered envelopes collected precisely to document all the various rates possible.
Hope that helps
David
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@Poster
"what's with all the crazy denominations: 5.5, 4.9, 8.4, 7.7, 8.5, 3.1, 3.5, 7.9, ... do they really serve a useful purpose?", these so called crazy denominations are listed in the Scott Cat. and each one has a valid purpose!
If poster is really interested in the "crazy denominations", there must be an online group or forum where you could learn the back ground of these.
Good luck
1898
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Re: service inscriptions. On earlier issues, such as some in the Transportation series, the service inscription was frequently applied by an overprint, with or without the traditional 2 black precancel lines. Subsequently, the service inscription was printed at the same time as the stamps themselves as part of the stamp design.
Check out the PNC data pages at the Plate Number Coil Collectors website, pnc3.org. There are scans of virtually all of these stamps up to a few years ago.
Also, for an explanation of some of the rates paid by the odd Transportation series denominations, you can download Richard Nazar's 1995 Plate Number Coil Catalog at
http://www.usastamps.com/references/PNC_ ...
The odd rate stamps for a particular rate have been superseded by stamps that have a nominal franking value. The bulk mailers that use them pay the difference between that nominal value and the actual rate paid at time of mailing.
Moderator - Link active
Here are a some more recent service inscribed stamps.
Non-profit Org, nominal value of 5c.
Presorted Standard, nominal value of 10c.
Presorted First-Class post card, nominal value of 15c.
Presorted First-Class, nominal value of 25c.
(Modified by Moderator on 2023-08-27 05:50:06)
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01:56:59pm
With my 1977 US cut off I won't see any of this interesting stuff. I do have a few newer items that seem to fit in with my regular material. That's why I have the 8.5 cent tow truck coil, it's on the page with a bunch of very similar pre 1977 material. I find that most countries now issue so much material that the only way you could keep up is if you only collected a couple countries. I knew a professor in university in the mid 1970's who collected all countries worldwide. I can't see how anyone could do that now!!!
As to joining an online group or forum, why would anyone need to do that when there are so many knowledgeable people right here? When I look at a stamp with denomination 7.7 cents I think "what can you mail that costs 7.7 cents?". It never occurred to me to consider group mailings. I guess that's why experts are necessary!
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@Poster
You are correct, no real need to join a group for forum!
1898
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What.... ? Isn't StampoRama an on-line group/forum?
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The majority of the information on the PNC3 website (I am a member) is available to all if that was the intent. Regular users of the information should consider joining.
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I will add their website here for reference's sake. I was not aware that this group existed. It does seem rather odd, though that they seem to make no mention of plate number coils prior to 1981.
Plate Number Coil Collectors Club
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@smauggie
The first plate numbered coil, the 18c Flag definitive, was issued in 1981. A plate numbered coil is one where the plate number is intentionally printed on the stamp. Although there are earlier coils that show plate numbers due to miscutting, those aren't the focus of PNC collectors.
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Back when I was a young but philatelically astute young fellow of maybe 19-20 I worked for a large real estate company. We did a lot of mass mailings for their developments. Since I knew postal processes I was in charge. I got the mailing labels, and spent entire weekends preparing the mailings, banding them together with the round USPS directional labels of the day. I managed the permit and the company meter. I was the man!
I discovered that you could pay the postage due on a "No Postage Required" mailing permit with stamps. The response to these multi thousand piece mailings was pretty good, so I had to retrieve $100 plus worth or responses. I'd buy the stamps, then the clerk would allow me to stamp them to make them invalid. And that paid the postage.
I still have a whole envelope of sheets. Here's the two high values, but on other days I would redeem sheets of commemoratives. I did pretty well.
I'm posting it here because people may write these sheets off as CTO. It wasn't CTO in the respect that a postal authority cancelled them to then sell to collectors. Heck, some CTOs were printed with the cancels in place. This is valid postal usage... stamps used to pay for postal charges!
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You are right, Tom; that's valid postal usage of stamps. Do you have the due sheets for which these sheets served as payment?
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Harvey;
To the best of my knowledge Canada has never issued CTO's unless you consider First Day of Issue stamps as CTO's. There were pre-cancels issued, but I do not consider pre-cancels to be CTO's.
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To me first day covers would count as cancelled to order, I'm sure most postal authorities bulk cancel them before and after the actual day of issue in order to accommodate the thousands they sell. Very few actually go through the mail process as individual covers.
I therefore avoid buying stamps from fdc's even though they count as used, to me they are like the eastern european issues that were "cancelled" during the printing process.
As an aside, on todays Norvic blog (https://blog.norphil.co.uk/2023/08/is-th ... ) there is the following message regarding the current new King Charles definitives which from post offices have security slits but not on the Royal Mail issued FDC's. The word in italics is mine as I think it should be there.
"Chris 4 September 2023 at 09:29
In response to a complaint made to RM re the missing security strips RM State: "I can confirm that there has been no error in the stamps used for our First Day Covers. As the stamps on a First Day Cover are not for regular use, they are produced using stamps from a coil that do not have the elliptical security markings."
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Victor,
I have always been against calling FDCs' stamps CTOs. They can do postal duty and have regulations on their use, whether mailed or not. CTOs have neither.
FDCs were begun in 1909 long before the FDC craze; they all saw postal duty. Do we need to create an asterisk to accommodate these? or the FDCs that I have purposely sent through the mails?
While I understand the convenience of grouping them, it accomplishes nothing and actually muddies postal waters.
David
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David, I quite agree, I was more thinking of the mail authority and dealers who buy/send them in bulk, rather than the collector who goes to his local postal outlet and sends individual FDC's (Not that many PO' s have stamps these days), let alone new issues. Certainly not around here!
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My little local PO has some recent issues, but it's catch as one can. We used to have a clerk who was a collector, and he did all kinds of promotions, including handling FDCs and issuing special cancels.
the Main PO in NYC (James A Farley, the huge, gorgeous McKimm Mead building) has 0 stamps (per the clerk, one of two at the windows). And yet the philatelic arm churns them out by the hundreds of designs for........ certainly not for moving the mail
anyway, glad we're in sync on FDCs =/= CTOs
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BenFrankllin:
You are absolutely right.
I did the same when I lived in the United States. I was a Commissioner with the Boy Scouts of America (in my Canadian uniform) and did a mass mailing like you did.
In the past, I've purchased such panes from members of SOR who did the same, as I am a member of the American Plate Number Single Society, and collect United States plate numbers and marginal markings, used.
David Giles
Ottawa, Canada
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10:44:23am
There are a lot of CTO USA stamps for sale.
Most are made up precanceled items in my opinion, what you think?
I avoid CTO USA material, easy to avoid if common sense is employed (might require a little research!).
So does SOR members include CTO material in their collections? Do you mark it as such?
How do you fell when you find out you were cheated when you find out you stamp is a CTO, do you still keep it in your album?
1898
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11:25:28am
re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
I don’t look for or have any U.S. CTO mounted. I don’t really come across it that often. If I do, I look past it. I have one CTO U.S. full sheet that I only paid 1.00 for. It’s recent, the .44 cent era I think and a sheet whose stamps are hard to find individually. I would never use one of the CTO’s in my album, though.
Now worldwide, is a different story. Most of the recent stuff from poor countries is CTO. It’s stuff you buy cheap and is in the nice to look at category.
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01:50:41pm
re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
@joesm
Thank you for your posting.
I'm staying away from foreign CTO stamps, way too many. In the past I notice lots of them were coming from Mexico and Canada and Europe. but guess it's different now as you said, good to know.
I still pick up some German stamps now and again, but I know right ones not to get (I think).
1898
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12 Aug 2023
01:57:55pm
re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
My US cut off is 1977 and for Canada 1988. I haven't noticed any CTO's but maybe I'm just not noticing. I collect Poland and Russia with 1985 cutoffs and I put up with CTO's for the newer material because my major concern is the classic material. Can anyone tell me when Canada and the US started issuing CTO's. I'm not talking precancels here, just regular issues. My gut tells me precancels are a totally different story, but maybe not, I really don't know!
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02:47:45pm
re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
@Harvey
I think (but not sure) U.S.A. CTO's started with the precancels.
Regular issues is where you will find the CTO's along with precancels.
Did this answer your question?
I'm not sure that I understood your question.
1898
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
12 Aug 2023
04:03:44pm
re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
Ignore precancels for a while, that's a bit different. I'm just wondering if for the regular issues of either commemoratives or definitives the postal service offers CTO's to collectors as many other countries do. It doesn't really affect me since most of my newer US and Canada is mint anyway, I'm just curious. It also probably doesn't affect me because of my cutoffs.
Now, back to precancels. If Joe Bloe were to walk into a postal station in the US or Canada with a cancel he made up himself and said cancel this sheet of stamps with this for me I assume they would have to refuse. Is the implication, like with my set of small town US precancels, that this was done just at the request of an individual and that the post office would do this? I'm pretty sure some workers would not see any harm in doing this. I know there are probably books that list the official precancels but I really don't want to get that far into this. As soon as I get my 50 states and protectorates this collection is finished. I might buy a few unusual items but not enough to warrant having a book. Besides, just because it's in a book doesn't mean it's true. A friend collects Queen's County N.S. post cards. He has a book listing all 400+ of them by a reputable collector. Tim has now passed 1200 cards. Also there are many books printed on post marks from various areas of the US and Canada and I doubt if any are totally complete. I've been told the ones for Nova Scotia are not. So why should a book on precancels be any different? I'm sure there must be many left to discover!
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05:24:24pm
re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
@Harvey
I reread your posting, and deleted my posting, I find it difficult to right and proper understand your posting (totally my fault).
The precancel I'm talking about are the classic Local type, nothing after 1930!
If what you say is correct just because it's in a book doesn't make it true how do YOU decide what is true and what is bogus?
1898
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05:48:45pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
The thread shown below has a lot of information on early precancels ( called "silent" precancels because they don't show the town name. ). I owned the Gerry precancel as well as the precancel shown below. I sold them both t o David Smith - author of the book shown below.
https://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_ma ...
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12 Aug 2023
05:58:31pm
re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
Very Very interesting Henry!! I really do learn something from this site every day. Silent cancels would be much more obvious on cover than just on an individual stamp. I had never heard of them before!!! I'm not sure whether to thank you or not - something else to look for!!
Edit: Just had a look through my album and am pretty sure I have a couple, one with a bunch of straight lines going right across the stamp and one with a wide black line going across the stamp. Of course the ones with fancy cancels are also possible but there is no way of knowing unless it was on cover. When my scanning person comes back from visiting family in a couple weeks I'll post pictures/scans of the two I'm pretty sure of. I guess this article shows the real origin of precancels.
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12 Aug 2023
06:42:58pm
re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
I know that precancels are really the equivalent of CTO but I still would like to know "when did the US and Canada start doing CTO's as the European countries do it now, or did they? Regular stamps cancelled and sold to collectors, do they do that? If they do, when did it start? Since my more recent US and Canada are mint with cut offs, I have no idea!
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07:30:18pm
re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
@Harvey
In the U. S. some time between 1860 and 1875. but this information is from books. You said "Besides, just because it's in a book doesn't mean it's true."
1898
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03:43:00pm
re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
Precancels and CTOs are NOT the same thing.
Precancelling stamps allows a postal administration to bypass one or more steps in processing mail so franked. In the United States, unused precancelled stamps may be used for postage as long as the mailer has the appropriate permit to use them.
CTOs are stamps with cancellation markings that a given postal administration may then sell to collectors at a discount from face value. They are not valid for postage. AFIAK, the United States has never sold CTOs.
Edited to correct misspelling.
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22 Aug 2023
04:20:09pm
re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
I know the difference but after rereading the posts in this "string" I'm not sure if some people aren't assuming that precancels are the same as CTO's. When I think of CTO's I think of stamps cancelled so they could be sent to collectors. CTO's are not to be used in the post! Precancels are usable and allow the user to bypass postal facilities and just pop the items directly into the mail. That's the way I think about them anyway, but maybe I'm simplifying this too much!
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re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
As stated precancels are, were, nothing like CTOs. A precancel user had to have a permit and precanceled stamps were valid for postage for permit holder only. They could not be resold by the permit holder. CTOs are items for collectors and not valid for postage, hence why they are despised by some collectors, having never actually been postally used. CTOs, as tommcf stated, are usually sheets canceled by the postal authority to be sold at a discount to collectors. This is contrasted with favor cancels, in which a collector purchases valid postage at full price, places the postage on a envelope, card, or other item and hands it back to the postal worker to cancel. I have several favor cancels of sets, mostly from Hungary, as it was common for collectors to acquire a new issue set in this manner back in the hey day of collecting, also from Switzerland for the pro patria and juventute issues. I don’t find those objectionable at all. But the CTOs created by certain countries, e.g., in the 1970s, are probably worth avoiding if possible. Nice works of art, per se, but not collectible postage IMO.
Edit: regarding favor cancels sets I referenced, I like the idea that someone in the past took the trouble to obtain these stamps, probably on the first day of issue, and had them favor canceled for their collection. Now I have that same set in my collection and there is a personal connection to the past between collectors. I suppose postally used would be better, but then you need how many covers for the same stamps, and how much additional space? For me, favor cancels have a place.
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22 Aug 2023
06:56:58pm
re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
Thanks Louis, great concise information stated so that anyone can understand the concept. That's a rare thing to be able to do!!
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
22 Aug 2023
10:16:36pm
re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
Now that we know the difference between CTO and precancel can I ask a question I've been trying to get an answer to on another post for ages? I don't collect newer Canada or US so I've asked a couple times whether these two countries are issuing CTO's for collectors like many other countries are doing. And if so, for how long. In previous attempts I keep getting the answer that it has been going on since the start of precancels! In other words a very long time. I think the person answering the question, since he only deals with classic era stamps, didn't really understand what a cancelled to order stamp really is - a stamp issued for non postal use for collectors. So can anyone tell me 'Is Canada or the US issuing CTO's"?
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re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
i am not aware of the US issuing CTOs. I believe all unsold stamps are destroyed.
And I am glad that others have made a distinction between CTOs and precancelled stamps. Other than having extra ink on them beyond the issued face, they neither look alike nor serve similar functions.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
23 Aug 2023
09:44:19am
re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
Thanks David and I'm almost positive you're right. I don't think Canada does CTO'S either.
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06:20:27pm
re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
Note that the US Postal Service considers service inscribed stamps as precancelled even though there is no additional printing on the stamps. These include stamps inscribed "Nonprofit Org", "Presorted Standard", and "Presorted First-Class".
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re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
In reply to Harvey, I don’t believe I’ve ever heard of the US issuing CTOs in the sense of the pre cancelled sheet, sold at a discount to collectors and not valid for postage. I think what adds confusion in forum discussions about CTOs is some people lump CTOs together with favor cancels. Whereas, you can always get a favor cancel at a US post office, I presume, unless the postal worker is clueless, however, you won’t find CTOs in the sense of what was common for some of the Emirates, Eastern European postal authorities, and third world countries issuing CTOs to collectors in the 1970s and I presume even later. There is a big difference and the confusion is sometimes a matter of semantics.
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re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
Tom is correct, that the USPS considers service-inscribed stamps as pre-cancelled; they serve identical functions.
Of course, I wonder why an organization would change second and third class to the wildly inventive and descriptive Standard A and Standard B, but not come up with a new name for something that looks nothing like what preceded it.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
24 Aug 2023
05:00:50pm
re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
"service inscribed stamps"
Could someone show an example, I'm not exactly sure what you mean.
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05:50:53pm
re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
@Poster
I'm not sure I know what you are referring to! If for some reason you might or might not be referring to a fiscal U. S. stamp in the 1914 Series, in your cat. look up R217
I hope this answers your question.
I suspect it does not answer your question, if this is true sorry, I tried!
1898
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re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
Here is US Scott 2125 that has been service-inscribed. The mail service type is printed on the stamp, and counts as a precancel. In this case the service is "CAR-RT Sort Non Profit Org.".
This is opposed to just a standard non-profit precancel such as this US Scott# 2124
US Scott# 2256 - Another example of a service-inscribed stamp "Nonprofit"
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
24 Aug 2023
06:57:56pm
re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
Never seen anything like this before. it must have started after my 1977 US cutoff!
Sorry, I am mistaken. I have the tow truck 8.5 cent coil with Nonprofit / org. , two lines with no containing bars, in with my collection of newer material and wondered what it was. Now I know, thanks!
Edit: The third one you show, the 8.4 cent, is postmarked. Is that a mistake since these are considered to be precancels?
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re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
I believe in this case the stamps (it is a strip of 3) was used to make up the first class postage rate, so a cancel would have been appropriate in that case.
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
24 Aug 2023
09:39:36pm
re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
One last thing about this - what's with all the crazy denominations: 5.5, 4.9, 8.4, 7.7, 8.5, 3.1, 3.5, 7.9, ... do they really serve a useful purpose?
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re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
They were valid rates when they were issued. It certainly gave us US collectors more stamps to collect.
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re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
Harvey,
there are tons of rates that one never sees except through meters or behind the scenes when paying off the remainder of a discounted rate partially paid by stamps.
Look at the metered envelopes you receive.
I have an oversized envelope from an insurance carrier paying the "presorted first class" rate; most rates actually change depending on the volume and density of the mailing. In this case, they paid 40.8c by meter. There is no current stamp that would pay that rate, in full or in combination.
One of our late members, Zeb Vance, had an immense collection of metered envelopes collected precisely to document all the various rates possible.
Hope that helps
David
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10:03:50am
re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
@Poster
"what's with all the crazy denominations: 5.5, 4.9, 8.4, 7.7, 8.5, 3.1, 3.5, 7.9, ... do they really serve a useful purpose?", these so called crazy denominations are listed in the Scott Cat. and each one has a valid purpose!
If poster is really interested in the "crazy denominations", there must be an online group or forum where you could learn the back ground of these.
Good luck
1898
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11:54:26am
re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
Re: service inscriptions. On earlier issues, such as some in the Transportation series, the service inscription was frequently applied by an overprint, with or without the traditional 2 black precancel lines. Subsequently, the service inscription was printed at the same time as the stamps themselves as part of the stamp design.
Check out the PNC data pages at the Plate Number Coil Collectors website, pnc3.org. There are scans of virtually all of these stamps up to a few years ago.
Also, for an explanation of some of the rates paid by the odd Transportation series denominations, you can download Richard Nazar's 1995 Plate Number Coil Catalog at
http://www.usastamps.com/references/PNC_ ...
The odd rate stamps for a particular rate have been superseded by stamps that have a nominal franking value. The bulk mailers that use them pay the difference between that nominal value and the actual rate paid at time of mailing.
Moderator - Link active
Here are a some more recent service inscribed stamps.
Non-profit Org, nominal value of 5c.
Presorted Standard, nominal value of 10c.
Presorted First-Class post card, nominal value of 15c.
Presorted First-Class, nominal value of 25c.
(Modified by Moderator on 2023-08-27 05:50:06)
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This is my diabetic cat OBI! I think, therefore I am - I think! Descartes, sort of!
25 Aug 2023
01:56:59pm
re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
With my 1977 US cut off I won't see any of this interesting stuff. I do have a few newer items that seem to fit in with my regular material. That's why I have the 8.5 cent tow truck coil, it's on the page with a bunch of very similar pre 1977 material. I find that most countries now issue so much material that the only way you could keep up is if you only collected a couple countries. I knew a professor in university in the mid 1970's who collected all countries worldwide. I can't see how anyone could do that now!!!
As to joining an online group or forum, why would anyone need to do that when there are so many knowledgeable people right here? When I look at a stamp with denomination 7.7 cents I think "what can you mail that costs 7.7 cents?". It never occurred to me to consider group mailings. I guess that's why experts are necessary!
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05:27:51pm
re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
@Poster
You are correct, no real need to join a group for forum!
1898
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re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
What.... ? Isn't StampoRama an on-line group/forum?
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re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
The majority of the information on the PNC3 website (I am a member) is available to all if that was the intent. Regular users of the information should consider joining.
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re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
I will add their website here for reference's sake. I was not aware that this group existed. It does seem rather odd, though that they seem to make no mention of plate number coils prior to 1981.
Plate Number Coil Collectors Club
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09:36:11am
re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
@smauggie
The first plate numbered coil, the 18c Flag definitive, was issued in 1981. A plate numbered coil is one where the plate number is intentionally printed on the stamp. Although there are earlier coils that show plate numbers due to miscutting, those aren't the focus of PNC collectors.
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re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
Back when I was a young but philatelically astute young fellow of maybe 19-20 I worked for a large real estate company. We did a lot of mass mailings for their developments. Since I knew postal processes I was in charge. I got the mailing labels, and spent entire weekends preparing the mailings, banding them together with the round USPS directional labels of the day. I managed the permit and the company meter. I was the man!
I discovered that you could pay the postage due on a "No Postage Required" mailing permit with stamps. The response to these multi thousand piece mailings was pretty good, so I had to retrieve $100 plus worth or responses. I'd buy the stamps, then the clerk would allow me to stamp them to make them invalid. And that paid the postage.
I still have a whole envelope of sheets. Here's the two high values, but on other days I would redeem sheets of commemoratives. I did pretty well.
I'm posting it here because people may write these sheets off as CTO. It wasn't CTO in the respect that a postal authority cancelled them to then sell to collectors. Heck, some CTOs were printed with the cancels in place. This is valid postal usage... stamps used to pay for postal charges!
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re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
You are right, Tom; that's valid postal usage of stamps. Do you have the due sheets for which these sheets served as payment?
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re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
Harvey;
To the best of my knowledge Canada has never issued CTO's unless you consider First Day of Issue stamps as CTO's. There were pre-cancels issued, but I do not consider pre-cancels to be CTO's.
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re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
To me first day covers would count as cancelled to order, I'm sure most postal authorities bulk cancel them before and after the actual day of issue in order to accommodate the thousands they sell. Very few actually go through the mail process as individual covers.
I therefore avoid buying stamps from fdc's even though they count as used, to me they are like the eastern european issues that were "cancelled" during the printing process.
As an aside, on todays Norvic blog (https://blog.norphil.co.uk/2023/08/is-th ... ) there is the following message regarding the current new King Charles definitives which from post offices have security slits but not on the Royal Mail issued FDC's. The word in italics is mine as I think it should be there.
"Chris 4 September 2023 at 09:29
In response to a complaint made to RM re the missing security strips RM State: "I can confirm that there has been no error in the stamps used for our First Day Covers. As the stamps on a First Day Cover are not for regular use, they are produced using stamps from a coil that do not have the elliptical security markings."
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re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
Victor,
I have always been against calling FDCs' stamps CTOs. They can do postal duty and have regulations on their use, whether mailed or not. CTOs have neither.
FDCs were begun in 1909 long before the FDC craze; they all saw postal duty. Do we need to create an asterisk to accommodate these? or the FDCs that I have purposely sent through the mails?
While I understand the convenience of grouping them, it accomplishes nothing and actually muddies postal waters.
David
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re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
David, I quite agree, I was more thinking of the mail authority and dealers who buy/send them in bulk, rather than the collector who goes to his local postal outlet and sends individual FDC's (Not that many PO' s have stamps these days), let alone new issues. Certainly not around here!
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re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
My little local PO has some recent issues, but it's catch as one can. We used to have a clerk who was a collector, and he did all kinds of promotions, including handling FDCs and issuing special cancels.
the Main PO in NYC (James A Farley, the huge, gorgeous McKimm Mead building) has 0 stamps (per the clerk, one of two at the windows). And yet the philatelic arm churns them out by the hundreds of designs for........ certainly not for moving the mail
anyway, glad we're in sync on FDCs =/= CTOs
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re: Cancelled To Order (CTO) United States of America (USA)
BenFrankllin:
You are absolutely right.
I did the same when I lived in the United States. I was a Commissioner with the Boy Scouts of America (in my Canadian uniform) and did a mass mailing like you did.
In the past, I've purchased such panes from members of SOR who did the same, as I am a member of the American Plate Number Single Society, and collect United States plate numbers and marginal markings, used.
David Giles
Ottawa, Canada
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