Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
At first glance, they look decent, but when you look at the micro printing with a loupe they are obviously fake. They keep getting harder to detect - the three flags issue is tougher to discern.
Not sure if this is considered a political comment (Politics are not allowed here in Stamporama) but I wrote my Congressman to ask that a more aggressive effort be made to stop this. At least they should shut down the proliferation of Google ads that are EVERYWHERE.
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Here is a great Conversations with Philatelists video on this with Wayne Youngblood
https://youtu.be/QjjrnaMGDl0
Apologies but I can’t activate YouTube link on an ipad
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I have several copies of these stamps but the microprinting seems okay to me, what's the difference between the real ones and fakes?
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Hi Tony - good question. On the fakes, the USPS microprinting is a much more blurry black. The most obvious difference is the size of the dots and the colors on the forgeries are more saturated. The forgers have greatly improved their die cuts to match, too. Genuine on the left.
The horizontal flag forgery is much less refined and easier to spot. They keep getting better - the newer the issue the better the forgery. Scary good in fact.
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Recently I have been getting a lot of offers to purchase "US" forever stamps on Facebook. They're offering them as postage for as little as 23¢ each. I have reported each of these ads a spam / fraud, but Zuckerberg keeps them coming.
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Who or what is Zuckerberg?
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Earth to 1898: zuckerberg (AKA zuckerbucks) is zillionaire activist, founder and CEO of facebook and META, etc.
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One word describes that horizontal flag stamp, grotesque!
Boy, do I miss engraved stamps.
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Me too, Tony - Intaglio is supposed to be harder to counterfeit AND it is so much more beautiful.
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These ads pop up on Facebook, eBay and anywhere else as fast as they can delete them!
Makes me wonder where they are being shipped from if you ordered them. And yes USPS and the govt needs to get on top of it!
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Some idiot tried to ship me something with counterfeits! I’m glad to see that the United States Postal Service is catching some of these morons.
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Whatever it was that was shipped to you, has probably been destroyed by USPS, per their April 1, 2023 regulation to that effect.
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"Makes me wonder where they are being shipped from"
There was an article in Linn's about this. It was found that the counterfeit stamps are coming from China.
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The problem is that they tell me to contact the seller or shipper but informed delivery blocked the tracking info so I have no way of knowing who to contact. A bit of a catch-22 for the recipient, you know what I mean?
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Theresa, would your invoice/despatch note not show the tracking number? Otherwise you could email USPS and quoting tracking number ask for sender/origin details (and point out your problem).
Or wait until you have no more items to be delivered and see what has not arrived.
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Thanks for the suggestion, Vic, but I’m Not sure what you mean by invoice/dispatch note? For example, on EBay, invoices do not show tracking info. The only information that I currently have is the blocked tracking info shown above which I wouldn’t have if I didn’t use informed delivery regularly.
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Usually where an item is sent with tracking, that number also appears on the invoice, confirmation of sale or despatch advice which you would have received after payment. Thus enabling the purchaser to track the package.
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Do you have a tracking number, the one shown appears to be missing the letters.
I use this site quite often to track packages.
https://parcelsapp.com/en/tracking
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I think the letters are for international- domestic United States Postal Service is numbers only
Checked on your site (thanks for that btw) and they show that the number isn’t found
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Well I’ve checked into every parcel that I’m expecting and nothing matches up with the seized parcel. The mystery continues.
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"nothing matches up with the seized parcel"
USPS considers items mailed with counterfeit stamps to be abandoned property, and is subject to destruction. No tracking information would be provided, since the USPS removed it from the mail stream, and probably shredded it.
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Thanks Michael, yup I’m aware - whatever was in there is history.
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"Makes me wonder where they are being shipped from"
"
There was an article in Linn's about this. It was found that the counterfeit stamps are coming from China."
I know the stamps originate from China, but my question is if you order them where would the package come from? China or a US address?
A few years ago I wanted to get a few iPhone cords. I went to eBay and they were like a dollar apiece, six for $6 from Chinese sellers. I didnt want to do that, so I looked for a seller in the USA. I settled on one from Secaucus, New Jersey and paid a bit more than the Chinese sellers. Guess where the package came from? Yup, China. I left negative feedback and reported seller to eBay for misrepresentation.
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I guess one should only buy forever stamps from USPS, or another trusted source...
And, I'm wondering if we will see an upsurge in destroyed or undelivered mail because of the problem.
I'm also wondering how many of these are ending up postally used in USA mixtures?! I've got about 10-20 pounds to go through (yuck!) and it will be interesting to see how many of the definitives are forgeries!
John
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Even booklet issues and love stamps are being counterfeited so keep an eye on those, too.
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According to the article in Linn's. all US stamps are being counterfeited by China. Including all of the commemorative, global, etc issues. I can't understand how you can expect to make a profit by faking, lets say, the Marine Sanctuaries sheet. Who is going to buy or use them? Does anyone know of any large commercial company doing a mass mailing using these? Who did they hire to carefully peel off the stamp from the sheet and stick it on an envelope? Only maybe some ebayers or fellow collectors would buy this discount postage. It is strange that there are a few dealers on ebay who cater to collectors and seem to have every issue in stock.
I wonder if China hates any other country and is doing this to them. Has Canada experienced this?
Tad
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I would imagine it is every country that is having their stamps faked. The UK most certainly and I even have an envelope with a fake Machin sent by a dealer.
Here is a link to an article on the Norvic site.
https://blog.norphil.co.uk/search/label/ ...
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You know stamps from those sites are genuine because they guarantee they are not counterfeit and boast about the UV features
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They find plenty of accomplices - buyers looking for discount postage and not really concerned about source (counterfeit, stolen)unless of course their mail is seized or other issues.
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Theresa posted some photos of two examples of the forgeries. Does anyone else have examples they could share? It’s hard to tell sometimes what is real and what is faked so knowing what to look for would be really helpful. Apparently Scott’s catalogs won’t be listing any of the forgeries - must purchase yet another catalog to get that information……
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The USPS is amending regulations in relation to forgeries/fakes, this is a link to a summary and also there is a link to the proposed amendment as a pdf.
https://www.federalregister.gov/document ...
It would appear that they will treat any item with a fake stamp as abandoned and will dispose of it at their discretion.
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Recent forgeries are very good and I don't know if I could readily identify them. How easy would it be for the average postal worker to discern authentic from forgery?
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Scott has a specialized catalogue on US forgeries. It contains descriptions on how to tell. Unfortunately, Scott says that stamps are being counterfeited at such a pace that they can't keep the catalogue updated fast enough.
If you want to see how they are being proliferated, go to Facebook Marketplace. They are sold by the thousands. Then, since people are getting such a "bargain" from face value, they turn around and sell the same counterfeit stamps to others.
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I read this thread with interest.
Due to the problems of not knowing the language, I have a few questions:
1. Are you sure the rule only applies to US forgeries stamps?
2. Isn't the recognized expertise system being bypassed?
3. What happens when there are genuine stamps and forgeries in the same envelope?
4. They are collectors of stamp forgeries and a limitation is created, assuming that they will be used for franking correspondence.
Thank you, I look forward to your answers.
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"It would appear that they will treat any item with a fake stamp as abandoned and will dispose of it at their discretion."
I had seen this and think it will only lead to trouble with people losing confidence with the mail.
The USPS makes stamps that are easily counterfeited and many in the public are willing to look the other way. I recall stores full of bootleg 8 track tapes that seemed to have willing buyers As does not help that genuine mint stamps sell well below face value.
The best strategy is to attack the head of the snake rather than the tail but these are not securities but stamps so the domain of the USPS.
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Seems like the USPS needs some "Men in Black."
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Or Jack Ryan, Postal Inspector.
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Angore and DannyS, are you hinting at a possible role for SOR in alerting the stamp community to the issues/dangers? If so, what/how might we do that? Perhaps I am overreading your comments, if so please excuse my thoughts.
Dan C.
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"3. What happens when there are genuine stamps and forgeries in the same envelope?"
There is a rule for that too!
The upper right corner/section of the mailing wrapper/container must contain valid postage stamps that are used to pay the postage rate. Any other stamps, labels, etc., must be placed away from that area. I have placed foreign stamps, seals and such on envelopes of stamp shipments I mailed out. I placed them at the bottom left of the envelopes. Never had a problem with the post office about it.
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Not sure if gerom meant in or on the envelope?
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Thanks @michael for the reply (good to know), but as @sheepshanks pointed out, my question was about the stamps inside the envelope.
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Inside the envelope. Nobody knows what's inside, right? Post office employees can't simply open the mail and look at what's in there. If Postal Inspectors or other law enforcement are working a criminal case, then that can be a different situation. Just everyday mail? They cannot legally look inside.
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Michael,
Not entirely true. They do open media mail sometimes. I have had my packages checked at the counter a few times, when I am mailing several packages.
I have a friend in our local club that received a media mail package that was opened by the USPS. There was a book in it but the sender used an unused priority box that he wrapped in paper. The sender was charged the priority rate. I'm not sure if you can use used priority packageing for shipping USPS. Something I will look into since I do reuse shipping boxes.
Vince
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No, you cannot use any of the priority or express boxes, envelopes, etc as packing or stiffener whether it is new of used.
Vince, I give you that. I wasn't clear about the media mail and such. They may open Media mail, or other articles if they believe that the mailing violates postal regulations.
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At my monthly club meeting, Mount Nittany Philatelic Society, we had Wayne Youngblood give a talk on the counterfeit U.S. forever stamps. I didn't realize the extent of the problem. The U.S. market is flooded with them. For every forever stamp there is a counterfeit. They come from China and there appears to be three different printers. Some stamps have 50 or more varieties, which make them very collectable. Telling the real from the fake is getting tougher. The printing is sophisticated, they are able to get the micro printing down and are starting to add tagging to them. Some actually look better than the real stamp. We were told that the counterfeit have a distinct odor different from the real ones. There is no discount postage sold by the USPS so if you are offered any be careful because it probably is fake. Here is something I didn't think about, we are not the only country with this problem. Many European countries are having the same problem. Up until now I only heard of U.S counterfeits.
Vince
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If you want to see some of the UK ones, follow this link.
https://blog.norphil.co.uk/search/label/ ...
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In an era of counterfeit stamps, the USPS releases a stamp that is easy to counterfeit.
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True, but it is more the printing method that is the problem. Current printing methods are easy to duplicate, as reported by Linn's on this subject several weeks ago. The method that is difficult to counterfeit is engraving.
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Is there a USPS reference that states one cannot reuse any of the Priority/Express boxes or envelopes that have already done their duty?
Tad
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I believe that that is correct. I don’t know why they can’t be repurposed. It is very obvious that they are used. Just re stamp it and send it on.
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Does anyone have the actual USPS policy that I could look up?
Tad
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I was told this a few years ago by the lady at the counter. I hated tossing them out. I just looked over the USPS website and didn’t find anything one one way or the other. I will remember, though, to ask again at the counter this week.
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Much information handed out by postal clerks is hearsay. No you can't have that envelope hand cancelled and returned to you; no you are not allowed to place stamps on the back of a package or letter even if there is no room on the front; what is this mailer's postmark; you can't use pre-cancelled stamps ever, etc. USPS policy is in writing and the postal clerk should be able to find it for you. But, no time. On a couple of occasions I had to request to see the postmaster. I guess they are not as busy as the clerks.
Tad
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https://faq.usps.com/s/article/How-do-I- ...
Here is a FAQ right from the USPS web site on box reuse:
Josh
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Thanks Josh.
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I guess that answers my question. Like most other government explanations, one must read ALL of it to understand the rules. But it appears you can reuse a used priority box as long as appropriate priority rates are paid. Maybe.
Thanks for finding the info,
Tad
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LOL.
"Maybe", when talking about the USPS, is a key operative work.
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Maybe while Secretary of State Blinken is talking with the Chinese about such things as the export of fentanyl precursors to Mexico he could mention the supply of fake US postage stamps from China. The Chinese government can at times take a pretty strong line on crooks in China, enough so that many have moved to Thailand according to our local press.
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"I guess that answers my question. Like most other government explanations, one must read ALL of it to understand the rules. But it appears you can reuse a used priority box as long as appropriate priority rates are paid. Maybe."
Bingo! USPS gives away those materials for a specific use. They didn't create this as a free source of cardboard. I see way too many eBay sellers who use pieces of Priority Mail envelopes as free stuffers for their orders.
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They aren't really "free". The cost of the packaging is factored into the Priority Mail and Express Mail fees.
Where the USPS talks about not reusing used such packaging, and then talks about recycling in the same breath, I think they should permit used of the used material as stuffers. I like to use the Priority Mail bubble mailers, especially when forwarding APS circuits. I will use the small priority box, or the bubble mailer that was sent to me to better protect the books inside the bubble envelope. I don't see the harm in that.
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I understand the USPS is concerned about losing money by people using the mailing material for other purposes. I think that they should be more concerned about the thousands of plastic tubs that they hand out, and people never return, using them for storage purposes. when I was buying storage lockers, I found many of those tubs being used to store all sorts of non-mail items. I returned them to the post office when I emptied them. You'll also find plenty of them in use for non-postal purposes at yard sales, and flea markets.
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" The cost of the packaging is factored into the Priority Mail and Express Mail fees."
I would like to see the USPS state they have to raise rates to cover the cost of increased packaging beyond what was forecasted/used. They should have a rough idea on packaging produced and packaging actually used at least once.
They should charge a nominal fee for packaging to at least cover cost and if you use it this is deducted from mailing expense but likely difficult to implement.
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Every month I pick up the used envelopes from my local phone company. Mostly USA flag forever stamps, I do have enough to look through that differences stand out after a while. These may be counterfeits:
Scott 5342 real stamp:
Note the die cut shape
Scott 5342 counterfeit stamp:
Note the die cut shape: rounded on top, points on bottom
Some differences that didn't show up on the photos: the counterfeit has no microprinting, coarse printing with obvious dots and rough print edges, and the text is a little thicker and darker.
Scott 5657 real stamp:
Note the "tighter" printing and legible microprinted USPS
Counterfeit 5657 stamp:
Apologies about the one that is upside down (could not get it to rotate). Note that the die cuts look good and actually measure the same as the real stamp. The differences are: counterfeit is much shinier under light, the printing is blotchier, the "microprinting" is illegible.
Once you have seen these, they really stand out.
Have not discovered any counterfeit commemoratives yet.
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USPS has little interest in stopping the forgeries. Stamp sales are a very small part of income. Assigning enforcement agents costs far more than it is worth.
Even if they shut down some of these operators, they restart in a new location in days. They will only catch hired hands , not the big dealers behind this. In short, USPS doesn't much care. They will give lip service to the problem but take no real action. All these sellers show physical addresses on shipments. Finding them would be simple if anyone cared.
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My wife (yea, I was involved too) wanted to order some Christmas Stamps for this year. She saw the Ad and we bought two designs (100 stamps each). Upon receiving them it was obvious they were counterfeit. Fortunately we paid using Pay Pal.
I filed a complaint with Pay Pal and stated I was going to destroy them, not mail them back to the sender. Pay Pal refunded my money then next day.
Miikey
PS: Please don't berate me for buying them. Instead praise me for being smart enough to use Pay Pal and recover my money.
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Bill,
what else does the USPS sell to generate revenue besides stamps, which convey franking power? Any stamp bought outside the USPS is revenue lost from stamps or meters. Perhaps there isn't enough counterfeit business to warrant intervention, but to judge by the sheer volume of ads on FB alone, this must be substantial business.
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I'll stick to discount postage or as it is called "scrap postage". It's honest and results in the exact same thing as far as I am concerned. The post office makes no money off of the stamps as they have been sold once already - to the person who has sold them off to another seller to be sold as scrap postage. You can get some great deals if you use a lot of it, and I do. There are other reasons for using scrap which I will not go into. Personally I believe that if you use a regular counterfeit first class non international forever stamp on an international letter and do not put it in the corner, it will never be caught, All you need to so is make sure the stamp in the corner is legit. Still, I'll just stick with scrap.
Anyone who uses fake stamps on a package is asking for trouble as to me, a whole mess of stamps instead of a mailing label with postage, which can easily be created at a discount, would make even a postal worker suspicious.
As to where does the PO make money? By increasing parcel postage twice a year. I have had to discontinue (as have most) free postage on ebay due to that. I suspect shortly Amazon is going to follow suit, and begin to charge a flat say buck a parcel for anyone who is not a prime member. The PO has to be charging Amazon more for each thing these days. I had thought by now Amazon would have gone into its own UPS shipping model, but it just hasn't happened yet. Maybe it will sooner or later. When I order something I get asked if I want top pick it up from any one of at least 20 locations in the area, and we live in the middle of nowhere. Reminds me of the UPS drop off points.
Greg
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I too use discount postage. Collectors like the variety of stamps on their mail.
It’s been said that any mail with a counterfeit stamp will be destroyed without notice to the sender. And we know the quality of the folks making these decisions.
I’ve had postal workers question if my old stamps were legit. I even got one back once with “Not stamps” Sharpied across them.
So when one of my eBay shipments goes missing.. was it lost in the mail? Stolen? Or thrown away by an idiot?
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Stamps sold over the counter account for a very small portion of USPS income so they don't consider the fakes to be enough of a problem to worry about. These fakes are so good clerks can't possibly identify them. Great majority of USPS income results in labels printed at the counter for all types of mailings. The crooks are getting a free ride!
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Just found these Chinese forgeries in a recent batch of kiloware. There were only a few flag stamps in this mix and quite a few were forgeries. I can’t begin to imagine the United States Postal Service loss of revenue.
At first glance, they look decent, but when you look at the micro printing with a loupe they are obviously fake. They keep getting harder to detect - the three flags issue is tougher to discern.
Not sure if this is considered a political comment (Politics are not allowed here in Stamporama) but I wrote my Congressman to ask that a more aggressive effort be made to stop this. At least they should shut down the proliferation of Google ads that are EVERYWHERE.
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
Here is a great Conversations with Philatelists video on this with Wayne Youngblood
https://youtu.be/QjjrnaMGDl0
Apologies but I can’t activate YouTube link on an ipad
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
I have several copies of these stamps but the microprinting seems okay to me, what's the difference between the real ones and fakes?
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
Hi Tony - good question. On the fakes, the USPS microprinting is a much more blurry black. The most obvious difference is the size of the dots and the colors on the forgeries are more saturated. The forgers have greatly improved their die cuts to match, too. Genuine on the left.
The horizontal flag forgery is much less refined and easier to spot. They keep getting better - the newer the issue the better the forgery. Scary good in fact.
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
Recently I have been getting a lot of offers to purchase "US" forever stamps on Facebook. They're offering them as postage for as little as 23¢ each. I have reported each of these ads a spam / fraud, but Zuckerberg keeps them coming.
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12:32:25pm
re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
Who or what is Zuckerberg?
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01:27:17pm
re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
Earth to 1898: zuckerberg (AKA zuckerbucks) is zillionaire activist, founder and CEO of facebook and META, etc.
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
One word describes that horizontal flag stamp, grotesque!
Boy, do I miss engraved stamps.
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
Me too, Tony - Intaglio is supposed to be harder to counterfeit AND it is so much more beautiful.
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
These ads pop up on Facebook, eBay and anywhere else as fast as they can delete them!
Makes me wonder where they are being shipped from if you ordered them. And yes USPS and the govt needs to get on top of it!
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
Some idiot tried to ship me something with counterfeits! I’m glad to see that the United States Postal Service is catching some of these morons.
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07:25:06pm
re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
Whatever it was that was shipped to you, has probably been destroyed by USPS, per their April 1, 2023 regulation to that effect.
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07:27:56pm
re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
"Makes me wonder where they are being shipped from"
There was an article in Linn's about this. It was found that the counterfeit stamps are coming from China.
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
The problem is that they tell me to contact the seller or shipper but informed delivery blocked the tracking info so I have no way of knowing who to contact. A bit of a catch-22 for the recipient, you know what I mean?
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
Theresa, would your invoice/despatch note not show the tracking number? Otherwise you could email USPS and quoting tracking number ask for sender/origin details (and point out your problem).
Or wait until you have no more items to be delivered and see what has not arrived.
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
Thanks for the suggestion, Vic, but I’m Not sure what you mean by invoice/dispatch note? For example, on EBay, invoices do not show tracking info. The only information that I currently have is the blocked tracking info shown above which I wouldn’t have if I didn’t use informed delivery regularly.
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
Usually where an item is sent with tracking, that number also appears on the invoice, confirmation of sale or despatch advice which you would have received after payment. Thus enabling the purchaser to track the package.
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
Do you have a tracking number, the one shown appears to be missing the letters.
I use this site quite often to track packages.
https://parcelsapp.com/en/tracking
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
I think the letters are for international- domestic United States Postal Service is numbers only
Checked on your site (thanks for that btw) and they show that the number isn’t found
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
Well I’ve checked into every parcel that I’m expecting and nothing matches up with the seized parcel. The mystery continues.
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11:06:16pm
re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
"nothing matches up with the seized parcel"
USPS considers items mailed with counterfeit stamps to be abandoned property, and is subject to destruction. No tracking information would be provided, since the USPS removed it from the mail stream, and probably shredded it.
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
Thanks Michael, yup I’m aware - whatever was in there is history.
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
"Makes me wonder where they are being shipped from"
"
There was an article in Linn's about this. It was found that the counterfeit stamps are coming from China."
I know the stamps originate from China, but my question is if you order them where would the package come from? China or a US address?
A few years ago I wanted to get a few iPhone cords. I went to eBay and they were like a dollar apiece, six for $6 from Chinese sellers. I didnt want to do that, so I looked for a seller in the USA. I settled on one from Secaucus, New Jersey and paid a bit more than the Chinese sellers. Guess where the package came from? Yup, China. I left negative feedback and reported seller to eBay for misrepresentation.
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
I guess one should only buy forever stamps from USPS, or another trusted source...
And, I'm wondering if we will see an upsurge in destroyed or undelivered mail because of the problem.
I'm also wondering how many of these are ending up postally used in USA mixtures?! I've got about 10-20 pounds to go through (yuck!) and it will be interesting to see how many of the definitives are forgeries!
John
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
Even booklet issues and love stamps are being counterfeited so keep an eye on those, too.
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
According to the article in Linn's. all US stamps are being counterfeited by China. Including all of the commemorative, global, etc issues. I can't understand how you can expect to make a profit by faking, lets say, the Marine Sanctuaries sheet. Who is going to buy or use them? Does anyone know of any large commercial company doing a mass mailing using these? Who did they hire to carefully peel off the stamp from the sheet and stick it on an envelope? Only maybe some ebayers or fellow collectors would buy this discount postage. It is strange that there are a few dealers on ebay who cater to collectors and seem to have every issue in stock.
I wonder if China hates any other country and is doing this to them. Has Canada experienced this?
Tad
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
I would imagine it is every country that is having their stamps faked. The UK most certainly and I even have an envelope with a fake Machin sent by a dealer.
Here is a link to an article on the Norvic site.
https://blog.norphil.co.uk/search/label/ ...
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
You know stamps from those sites are genuine because they guarantee they are not counterfeit and boast about the UV features
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
They find plenty of accomplices - buyers looking for discount postage and not really concerned about source (counterfeit, stolen)unless of course their mail is seized or other issues.
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
Theresa posted some photos of two examples of the forgeries. Does anyone else have examples they could share? It’s hard to tell sometimes what is real and what is faked so knowing what to look for would be really helpful. Apparently Scott’s catalogs won’t be listing any of the forgeries - must purchase yet another catalog to get that information……
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
The USPS is amending regulations in relation to forgeries/fakes, this is a link to a summary and also there is a link to the proposed amendment as a pdf.
https://www.federalregister.gov/document ...
It would appear that they will treat any item with a fake stamp as abandoned and will dispose of it at their discretion.
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
Recent forgeries are very good and I don't know if I could readily identify them. How easy would it be for the average postal worker to discern authentic from forgery?
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07:42:30am
re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
Scott has a specialized catalogue on US forgeries. It contains descriptions on how to tell. Unfortunately, Scott says that stamps are being counterfeited at such a pace that they can't keep the catalogue updated fast enough.
If you want to see how they are being proliferated, go to Facebook Marketplace. They are sold by the thousands. Then, since people are getting such a "bargain" from face value, they turn around and sell the same counterfeit stamps to others.
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03:58:56am
re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
I read this thread with interest.
Due to the problems of not knowing the language, I have a few questions:
1. Are you sure the rule only applies to US forgeries stamps?
2. Isn't the recognized expertise system being bypassed?
3. What happens when there are genuine stamps and forgeries in the same envelope?
4. They are collectors of stamp forgeries and a limitation is created, assuming that they will be used for franking correspondence.
Thank you, I look forward to your answers.
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
"It would appear that they will treat any item with a fake stamp as abandoned and will dispose of it at their discretion."
I had seen this and think it will only lead to trouble with people losing confidence with the mail.
The USPS makes stamps that are easily counterfeited and many in the public are willing to look the other way. I recall stores full of bootleg 8 track tapes that seemed to have willing buyers As does not help that genuine mint stamps sell well below face value.
The best strategy is to attack the head of the snake rather than the tail but these are not securities but stamps so the domain of the USPS.
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
Seems like the USPS needs some "Men in Black."
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
Or Jack Ryan, Postal Inspector.
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
Angore and DannyS, are you hinting at a possible role for SOR in alerting the stamp community to the issues/dangers? If so, what/how might we do that? Perhaps I am overreading your comments, if so please excuse my thoughts.
Dan C.
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09:43:43pm
re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
"3. What happens when there are genuine stamps and forgeries in the same envelope?"
There is a rule for that too!
The upper right corner/section of the mailing wrapper/container must contain valid postage stamps that are used to pay the postage rate. Any other stamps, labels, etc., must be placed away from that area. I have placed foreign stamps, seals and such on envelopes of stamp shipments I mailed out. I placed them at the bottom left of the envelopes. Never had a problem with the post office about it.
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
Not sure if gerom meant in or on the envelope?
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03:32:32am
re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
Thanks @michael for the reply (good to know), but as @sheepshanks pointed out, my question was about the stamps inside the envelope.
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08:14:05am
re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
Inside the envelope. Nobody knows what's inside, right? Post office employees can't simply open the mail and look at what's in there. If Postal Inspectors or other law enforcement are working a criminal case, then that can be a different situation. Just everyday mail? They cannot legally look inside.
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
Michael,
Not entirely true. They do open media mail sometimes. I have had my packages checked at the counter a few times, when I am mailing several packages.
I have a friend in our local club that received a media mail package that was opened by the USPS. There was a book in it but the sender used an unused priority box that he wrapped in paper. The sender was charged the priority rate. I'm not sure if you can use used priority packageing for shipping USPS. Something I will look into since I do reuse shipping boxes.
Vince
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03:30:03pm
re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
No, you cannot use any of the priority or express boxes, envelopes, etc as packing or stiffener whether it is new of used.
Vince, I give you that. I wasn't clear about the media mail and such. They may open Media mail, or other articles if they believe that the mailing violates postal regulations.
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
At my monthly club meeting, Mount Nittany Philatelic Society, we had Wayne Youngblood give a talk on the counterfeit U.S. forever stamps. I didn't realize the extent of the problem. The U.S. market is flooded with them. For every forever stamp there is a counterfeit. They come from China and there appears to be three different printers. Some stamps have 50 or more varieties, which make them very collectable. Telling the real from the fake is getting tougher. The printing is sophisticated, they are able to get the micro printing down and are starting to add tagging to them. Some actually look better than the real stamp. We were told that the counterfeit have a distinct odor different from the real ones. There is no discount postage sold by the USPS so if you are offered any be careful because it probably is fake. Here is something I didn't think about, we are not the only country with this problem. Many European countries are having the same problem. Up until now I only heard of U.S counterfeits.
Vince
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
If you want to see some of the UK ones, follow this link.
https://blog.norphil.co.uk/search/label/ ...
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
In an era of counterfeit stamps, the USPS releases a stamp that is easy to counterfeit.
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06:52:34am
re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
True, but it is more the printing method that is the problem. Current printing methods are easy to duplicate, as reported by Linn's on this subject several weeks ago. The method that is difficult to counterfeit is engraving.
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
Is there a USPS reference that states one cannot reuse any of the Priority/Express boxes or envelopes that have already done their duty?
Tad
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07:55:39am
re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
I believe that that is correct. I don’t know why they can’t be repurposed. It is very obvious that they are used. Just re stamp it and send it on.
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
Does anyone have the actual USPS policy that I could look up?
Tad
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04:59:24pm
re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
I was told this a few years ago by the lady at the counter. I hated tossing them out. I just looked over the USPS website and didn’t find anything one one way or the other. I will remember, though, to ask again at the counter this week.
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
Much information handed out by postal clerks is hearsay. No you can't have that envelope hand cancelled and returned to you; no you are not allowed to place stamps on the back of a package or letter even if there is no room on the front; what is this mailer's postmark; you can't use pre-cancelled stamps ever, etc. USPS policy is in writing and the postal clerk should be able to find it for you. But, no time. On a couple of occasions I had to request to see the postmaster. I guess they are not as busy as the clerks.
Tad
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
https://faq.usps.com/s/article/How-do-I- ...
Here is a FAQ right from the USPS web site on box reuse:
Josh
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07:07:02pm
re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
Thanks Josh.
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
I guess that answers my question. Like most other government explanations, one must read ALL of it to understand the rules. But it appears you can reuse a used priority box as long as appropriate priority rates are paid. Maybe.
Thanks for finding the info,
Tad
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09:17:27pm
re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
LOL.
"Maybe", when talking about the USPS, is a key operative work.
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
Maybe while Secretary of State Blinken is talking with the Chinese about such things as the export of fentanyl precursors to Mexico he could mention the supply of fake US postage stamps from China. The Chinese government can at times take a pretty strong line on crooks in China, enough so that many have moved to Thailand according to our local press.
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
"I guess that answers my question. Like most other government explanations, one must read ALL of it to understand the rules. But it appears you can reuse a used priority box as long as appropriate priority rates are paid. Maybe."
Bingo! USPS gives away those materials for a specific use. They didn't create this as a free source of cardboard. I see way too many eBay sellers who use pieces of Priority Mail envelopes as free stuffers for their orders.
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02:19:07pm
re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
They aren't really "free". The cost of the packaging is factored into the Priority Mail and Express Mail fees.
Where the USPS talks about not reusing used such packaging, and then talks about recycling in the same breath, I think they should permit used of the used material as stuffers. I like to use the Priority Mail bubble mailers, especially when forwarding APS circuits. I will use the small priority box, or the bubble mailer that was sent to me to better protect the books inside the bubble envelope. I don't see the harm in that.
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02:23:11pm
re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
I understand the USPS is concerned about losing money by people using the mailing material for other purposes. I think that they should be more concerned about the thousands of plastic tubs that they hand out, and people never return, using them for storage purposes. when I was buying storage lockers, I found many of those tubs being used to store all sorts of non-mail items. I returned them to the post office when I emptied them. You'll also find plenty of them in use for non-postal purposes at yard sales, and flea markets.
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
" The cost of the packaging is factored into the Priority Mail and Express Mail fees."
I would like to see the USPS state they have to raise rates to cover the cost of increased packaging beyond what was forecasted/used. They should have a rough idea on packaging produced and packaging actually used at least once.
They should charge a nominal fee for packaging to at least cover cost and if you use it this is deducted from mailing expense but likely difficult to implement.
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
Every month I pick up the used envelopes from my local phone company. Mostly USA flag forever stamps, I do have enough to look through that differences stand out after a while. These may be counterfeits:
Scott 5342 real stamp:
Note the die cut shape
Scott 5342 counterfeit stamp:
Note the die cut shape: rounded on top, points on bottom
Some differences that didn't show up on the photos: the counterfeit has no microprinting, coarse printing with obvious dots and rough print edges, and the text is a little thicker and darker.
Scott 5657 real stamp:
Note the "tighter" printing and legible microprinted USPS
Counterfeit 5657 stamp:
Apologies about the one that is upside down (could not get it to rotate). Note that the die cuts look good and actually measure the same as the real stamp. The differences are: counterfeit is much shinier under light, the printing is blotchier, the "microprinting" is illegible.
Once you have seen these, they really stand out.
Have not discovered any counterfeit commemoratives yet.
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08:56:31am
re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
USPS has little interest in stopping the forgeries. Stamp sales are a very small part of income. Assigning enforcement agents costs far more than it is worth.
Even if they shut down some of these operators, they restart in a new location in days. They will only catch hired hands , not the big dealers behind this. In short, USPS doesn't much care. They will give lip service to the problem but take no real action. All these sellers show physical addresses on shipments. Finding them would be simple if anyone cared.
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
My wife (yea, I was involved too) wanted to order some Christmas Stamps for this year. She saw the Ad and we bought two designs (100 stamps each). Upon receiving them it was obvious they were counterfeit. Fortunately we paid using Pay Pal.
I filed a complaint with Pay Pal and stated I was going to destroy them, not mail them back to the sender. Pay Pal refunded my money then next day.
Miikey
PS: Please don't berate me for buying them. Instead praise me for being smart enough to use Pay Pal and recover my money.
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
Bill,
what else does the USPS sell to generate revenue besides stamps, which convey franking power? Any stamp bought outside the USPS is revenue lost from stamps or meters. Perhaps there isn't enough counterfeit business to warrant intervention, but to judge by the sheer volume of ads on FB alone, this must be substantial business.
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
I'll stick to discount postage or as it is called "scrap postage". It's honest and results in the exact same thing as far as I am concerned. The post office makes no money off of the stamps as they have been sold once already - to the person who has sold them off to another seller to be sold as scrap postage. You can get some great deals if you use a lot of it, and I do. There are other reasons for using scrap which I will not go into. Personally I believe that if you use a regular counterfeit first class non international forever stamp on an international letter and do not put it in the corner, it will never be caught, All you need to so is make sure the stamp in the corner is legit. Still, I'll just stick with scrap.
Anyone who uses fake stamps on a package is asking for trouble as to me, a whole mess of stamps instead of a mailing label with postage, which can easily be created at a discount, would make even a postal worker suspicious.
As to where does the PO make money? By increasing parcel postage twice a year. I have had to discontinue (as have most) free postage on ebay due to that. I suspect shortly Amazon is going to follow suit, and begin to charge a flat say buck a parcel for anyone who is not a prime member. The PO has to be charging Amazon more for each thing these days. I had thought by now Amazon would have gone into its own UPS shipping model, but it just hasn't happened yet. Maybe it will sooner or later. When I order something I get asked if I want top pick it up from any one of at least 20 locations in the area, and we live in the middle of nowhere. Reminds me of the UPS drop off points.
Greg
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re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
I too use discount postage. Collectors like the variety of stamps on their mail.
It’s been said that any mail with a counterfeit stamp will be destroyed without notice to the sender. And we know the quality of the folks making these decisions.
I’ve had postal workers question if my old stamps were legit. I even got one back once with “Not stamps” Sharpied across them.
So when one of my eBay shipments goes missing.. was it lost in the mail? Stolen? Or thrown away by an idiot?
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05:38:26pm
re: Chinese forgeries of USA forever rates
Stamps sold over the counter account for a very small portion of USPS income so they don't consider the fakes to be enough of a problem to worry about. These fakes are so good clerks can't possibly identify them. Great majority of USPS income results in labels printed at the counter for all types of mailings. The crooks are getting a free ride!
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