Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
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Only my opinion but I don't think that you are going to get an accurate measurement with calipers - honest. They are designed to use on solid objects.
Get a magnifier (hand held or stand type - linen tester) with a mm gauge and you will be able to tell. Or take a known flat plate W-F and cut the corners and use it as a gauge.I got a couple of linen testers and a nice 10X stand magnifier on Amazon for under $20 for all 3 a couple of years back.
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Hi ocpicker;
You are using the wrong tool to measure a stamps image size by. Calipers are good for measuring
outside dimensions of diameters, thicknesses, and lengths of 3 dimensional objects! And so-so
at measuring inside diameters.
For flat objects you should use a flat millimeter scale and use a magnifying glass as an aid to
seeing that the '0' line is aligned with the edge of the stamp.
You also should get a perforation gauge designed to be used with stamps. Go to this discussion:
http://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_main.php?action=20&id=9345#64249
to see what a typical gauge looks like. They are accurate enough for stamps. Your vernier caliper
is too much overkill and is intended for 3-dimensional solids.
TuskenRaider
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The perforation gauge used was printed from a online gauge 
stamp download
Here is additional photos as requested, and the gauge I used for perforations was downloaded and cut to show detail. It was a stamp gauge.
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Yes it would seem that way but, I checked the ruler over another ruler and the one I used to take these pictures is off by 1/2-3/4 of a mm. It is a cheap empire ruler and was cut wrong. So you need to add that measurement to the stamp. Now if Im correct in that measurement, should I take it in to be checked ???
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You really need to buy a perforation gauge, and if you are going to be checking out stamps regularly you need to buy a linen tester - it's pretty foolproof and will save a lot of time.
You can never trust anything you download, or anything you copy on a copy machine or scanner because they do not hold dimensions well. They always shrink or swell the image. Or just use a flat press stamp and cut the corners off.
It's a lot cheaper to buy the right tools than to spend the money to get it expertized. I use my linen tester (well under $10) to determine stamp size, measure grilles on early US stamps, overprint spacing and length, identification of paper types, and a few other functions that escape me at the moment..
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08:43:03am
For USA, the Sonic Imagery Labs Precision U. S. Specialty Multi-Gauge is the best I've found:
For general use I like the Linn's Multi-Gauge:
and, for quick IDs, a metal gauge similar to this:
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"should I take it in to be checked ??? "
You are in the LA area - take it to a stamp show or any of the few remaining stamp shops left and ask them to measure it for you. It's fast and it's free. Ask and they should be happy to let you watch and learn... there are tricks that can throw you off at least 1/4 of a mm.
In 30 plus years I've measured and watermarked tens of thousands of Washington-Franklin and bureau issues (no exaggeration - maybe a couple of hundred shoe boxes bought, checked and rolled back). The number of true "finds" (cat over $100) is perhaps a couple of three dozen or so, and that includes cracked plates, double transfers, etc.
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I heartily second the recommendation of Sonic Imagery Labs gauge. I use it on foreign stamps, some of which have the same differences with flat versus rotary printing. It can do everything all the other perf gauges can do, plus much more. Well worth the initial cost.
Also, in case you're not familiar with it, there's usually quite a good monthly stamp show in Anaheim, typically the fourth Sunday of the month. However, in January it is superceded by the annual OrcoExpo, which is even larger, and is coming up in a couple of weeks, Jan 9-11, 2015.
Details on both shows are here:
http://www.stampshowsteve.com/
Additionally, in case you might not be aware of it, the winter APS show will be in Riverside Feb 13-15, 2015. It does not come very often to Southern California, so it's well worth making plans to attend.
http://stamps.org/AmeriStamp-Expo-ASE
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Thank all of you for your responces
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Hello Everyone, I took your advise and purchased a Precision U.S. Specialty Multi-Gauge and am still confused. Please see photos, The perforations are 11x11
What do you think now ?
I know I am a little off center, but that should still make these at least 22.25+ x 19.25+ correct.
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You will note that Scott states that Flat Plate stamps "measure about 18-1/2-19mm by 22mm high." "About" means about - not every line on every plate in every position is perfect. I've checked literally thousands of these over the past 35 years and my favorite quick and dirty method is to take a known flat plate stamp and cut the corners and put it in a clear cover holder. I can quickly place it over any stamp in question and unless the stamp is noticeably wider or longer than it is a flat plate stamp. My reference copy below measures 19-1/4mm wide by 22mm high - it is a flat plate.
Rotary stamps are ALWAYS at least 19-1/2-20mm wide OR 22-1/2-23mm tall. If it isn't wider or taller than the flat plate stamp used as a guide then it is a flat plate stamp. If you do a couple of dozen stamps you will see how distinct the rotary stamps stand out.
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Ok People help me, I have verified that these 2 stamps are perforated 11 x 11, the size issue I have is that they are 19.25 mm x 22.25 mm, they have a curved perf. hole design, they are the proper coloring from what I understand. Sooooooo all of you pros out there what are your thoughts. Would you, with the information I have given you find it worthy to have graded and verified. Or does this seem to be a waist of time. My measurements were taken from a Precision U.S. Specialty Multi Guage.
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By the way, has the 552 ever been seen at 19.25 x 22.25 ?? or is there another stamp this could be ??
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01:52:19am
Bill Weiss is a recognized expert for US stamps and his plain Jane certs are very reasonably priced. His website is http://www.stampexpertizing.com/
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Hi ocpicker;
In looking at your second scan, where you are measuring the height of this stamp, I can
see a bit of white space outside of the stamp. The correct method for measuring using
that type of gauge is to have the very edge of the image resting beneath the center
(splitting the line) of the zero line. Since it is not possible to make the zero line much thin-
ner and still be able to see it, you must place the exact center of the line over the edge
of the stamp design. Do this under 5-10x magnifier so you will know that it is dead on.
Also you can introduce further error by not being perfectly square with the stamp. In your
scan the gauge is rotated clockwise about 2º, this can further add to the problem. It takes
a lot of patience to learn these methods, and most of us have taken years to do so.
It would be of great value to you if you join a local stamp club. Someone there will be expe-
rienced in these skills. Most clubs do not require you to join and pay dues, just show up
and if they have coffee and donuts, toss some change in their jar.
Try this; first square up your gauge, and move it to the right so the end of the zero line is
directly under the dot/circle in the square ornament in the lower left corner. Then you
should be able to tell that your stamp edge is splitting the zero line.
It is highly unlikely that your stamp is worth that much, not impossible, just not likely.
They sell for that kind of money because they are extremely rare. Scott #596 is one
of the highest price US stamps, meaning they would be nearly impossible to find.
However even if your stamps is just another #552, you will have learned some useful
skills if you want to become a serious collector. US stamps are fun to study and collect.
Also I notice that your stamps have a very nice clean cancel, and would be worth a few
cents more, if kept on cover than if soaked off. Most members on here would agree, but
alas I don't collect covers, so I would either soak off or sell to someone who does collect
covers.
Good luck with your hunt....
TuskenRaider
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Just for your information if it does come back as a pair of 552's the cover itself, if clean and undamaged, is worth a few bucks. Manhattan, CA is a post office that was located in Los Angeles County and operated from 1903 to 1927. It has a Helbock scarcity rating of 2 (value between $2 and $8)in United States Post Offices - Volume 1 - The West.
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This string of posts illustrates exactly why I enjoy the W&F's so much.
Keep up the hunt, you will find the rare ones some day, just not today.
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11:04:22pm
re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596
Only my opinion but I don't think that you are going to get an accurate measurement with calipers - honest. They are designed to use on solid objects.
Get a magnifier (hand held or stand type - linen tester) with a mm gauge and you will be able to tell. Or take a known flat plate W-F and cut the corners and use it as a gauge.I got a couple of linen testers and a nice 10X stand magnifier on Amazon for under $20 for all 3 a couple of years back.
Login to Like
this post
re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596
Hi ocpicker;
You are using the wrong tool to measure a stamps image size by. Calipers are good for measuring
outside dimensions of diameters, thicknesses, and lengths of 3 dimensional objects! And so-so
at measuring inside diameters.
For flat objects you should use a flat millimeter scale and use a magnifying glass as an aid to
seeing that the '0' line is aligned with the edge of the stamp.
You also should get a perforation gauge designed to be used with stamps. Go to this discussion:
http://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_main.php?action=20&id=9345#64249
to see what a typical gauge looks like. They are accurate enough for stamps. Your vernier caliper
is too much overkill and is intended for 3-dimensional solids.
TuskenRaider
Login to Like
this post
12:02:07am
re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596
The perforation gauge used was printed from a online gauge stamp download
Here is additional photos as requested, and the gauge I used for perforations was downloaded and cut to show detail. It was a stamp gauge.
Login to Like
this post
01:58:25am
re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596
Yes it would seem that way but, I checked the ruler over another ruler and the one I used to take these pictures is off by 1/2-3/4 of a mm. It is a cheap empire ruler and was cut wrong. So you need to add that measurement to the stamp. Now if Im correct in that measurement, should I take it in to be checked ???
Login to Like
this post
05:52:07am
re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596
You really need to buy a perforation gauge, and if you are going to be checking out stamps regularly you need to buy a linen tester - it's pretty foolproof and will save a lot of time.
You can never trust anything you download, or anything you copy on a copy machine or scanner because they do not hold dimensions well. They always shrink or swell the image. Or just use a flat press stamp and cut the corners off.
It's a lot cheaper to buy the right tools than to spend the money to get it expertized. I use my linen tester (well under $10) to determine stamp size, measure grilles on early US stamps, overprint spacing and length, identification of paper types, and a few other functions that escape me at the moment..
Login to Like
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
28 Dec 2014
08:43:03am
re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596
For USA, the Sonic Imagery Labs Precision U. S. Specialty Multi-Gauge is the best I've found:
For general use I like the Linn's Multi-Gauge:
and, for quick IDs, a metal gauge similar to this:
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
10:16:21am
re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596
"should I take it in to be checked ??? "
You are in the LA area - take it to a stamp show or any of the few remaining stamp shops left and ask them to measure it for you. It's fast and it's free. Ask and they should be happy to let you watch and learn... there are tricks that can throw you off at least 1/4 of a mm.
In 30 plus years I've measured and watermarked tens of thousands of Washington-Franklin and bureau issues (no exaggeration - maybe a couple of hundred shoe boxes bought, checked and rolled back). The number of true "finds" (cat over $100) is perhaps a couple of three dozen or so, and that includes cracked plates, double transfers, etc.
Login to Like
this post
re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596
I heartily second the recommendation of Sonic Imagery Labs gauge. I use it on foreign stamps, some of which have the same differences with flat versus rotary printing. It can do everything all the other perf gauges can do, plus much more. Well worth the initial cost.
Also, in case you're not familiar with it, there's usually quite a good monthly stamp show in Anaheim, typically the fourth Sunday of the month. However, in January it is superceded by the annual OrcoExpo, which is even larger, and is coming up in a couple of weeks, Jan 9-11, 2015.
Details on both shows are here:
http://www.stampshowsteve.com/
Additionally, in case you might not be aware of it, the winter APS show will be in Riverside Feb 13-15, 2015. It does not come very often to Southern California, so it's well worth making plans to attend.
http://stamps.org/AmeriStamp-Expo-ASE
Login to Like
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10:47:34am
re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596
Thank all of you for your responces
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04:52:29pm
re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596
Hello Everyone, I took your advise and purchased a Precision U.S. Specialty Multi-Gauge and am still confused. Please see photos, The perforations are 11x11
What do you think now ?
I know I am a little off center, but that should still make these at least 22.25+ x 19.25+ correct.
Login to Like
this post
09:40:00pm
re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596
You will note that Scott states that Flat Plate stamps "measure about 18-1/2-19mm by 22mm high." "About" means about - not every line on every plate in every position is perfect. I've checked literally thousands of these over the past 35 years and my favorite quick and dirty method is to take a known flat plate stamp and cut the corners and put it in a clear cover holder. I can quickly place it over any stamp in question and unless the stamp is noticeably wider or longer than it is a flat plate stamp. My reference copy below measures 19-1/4mm wide by 22mm high - it is a flat plate.
Rotary stamps are ALWAYS at least 19-1/2-20mm wide OR 22-1/2-23mm tall. If it isn't wider or taller than the flat plate stamp used as a guide then it is a flat plate stamp. If you do a couple of dozen stamps you will see how distinct the rotary stamps stand out.
1 Member
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12:51:56am
re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596
Ok People help me, I have verified that these 2 stamps are perforated 11 x 11, the size issue I have is that they are 19.25 mm x 22.25 mm, they have a curved perf. hole design, they are the proper coloring from what I understand. Sooooooo all of you pros out there what are your thoughts. Would you, with the information I have given you find it worthy to have graded and verified. Or does this seem to be a waist of time. My measurements were taken from a Precision U.S. Specialty Multi Guage.
Login to Like
this post
12:55:04am
re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596
By the way, has the 552 ever been seen at 19.25 x 22.25 ?? or is there another stamp this could be ??
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
07 Jan 2015
01:52:19am
re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596
Bill Weiss is a recognized expert for US stamps and his plain Jane certs are very reasonably priced. His website is http://www.stampexpertizing.com/
Login to Like
this post
re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596
Hi ocpicker;
In looking at your second scan, where you are measuring the height of this stamp, I can
see a bit of white space outside of the stamp. The correct method for measuring using
that type of gauge is to have the very edge of the image resting beneath the center
(splitting the line) of the zero line. Since it is not possible to make the zero line much thin-
ner and still be able to see it, you must place the exact center of the line over the edge
of the stamp design. Do this under 5-10x magnifier so you will know that it is dead on.
Also you can introduce further error by not being perfectly square with the stamp. In your
scan the gauge is rotated clockwise about 2º, this can further add to the problem. It takes
a lot of patience to learn these methods, and most of us have taken years to do so.
It would be of great value to you if you join a local stamp club. Someone there will be expe-
rienced in these skills. Most clubs do not require you to join and pay dues, just show up
and if they have coffee and donuts, toss some change in their jar.
Try this; first square up your gauge, and move it to the right so the end of the zero line is
directly under the dot/circle in the square ornament in the lower left corner. Then you
should be able to tell that your stamp edge is splitting the zero line.
It is highly unlikely that your stamp is worth that much, not impossible, just not likely.
They sell for that kind of money because they are extremely rare. Scott #596 is one
of the highest price US stamps, meaning they would be nearly impossible to find.
However even if your stamps is just another #552, you will have learned some useful
skills if you want to become a serious collector. US stamps are fun to study and collect.
Also I notice that your stamps have a very nice clean cancel, and would be worth a few
cents more, if kept on cover than if soaked off. Most members on here would agree, but
alas I don't collect covers, so I would either soak off or sell to someone who does collect
covers.
Good luck with your hunt....
TuskenRaider
Login to Like
this post
12:25:23pm
re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596
Just for your information if it does come back as a pair of 552's the cover itself, if clean and undamaged, is worth a few bucks. Manhattan, CA is a post office that was located in Los Angeles County and operated from 1903 to 1927. It has a Helbock scarcity rating of 2 (value between $2 and $8)in United States Post Offices - Volume 1 - The West.
Login to Like
this post
re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596
This string of posts illustrates exactly why I enjoy the W&F's so much.
Keep up the hunt, you will find the rare ones some day, just not today.
1 Member
likes this post.
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