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General Philatelic/Identify This? : Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596

 

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ocpicker

27 Dec 2014
08:17:46pm
Image Not FoundImage Not FoundImage Not FoundImage Not Found

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In loving memory of Carol, my wife for 52 years.

27 Dec 2014
11:04:22pm

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re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596

Only my opinion but I don't think that you are going to get an accurate measurement with calipers - honest. They are designed to use on solid objects.

Get a magnifier (hand held or stand type - linen tester) with a mm gauge and you will be able to tell. Or take a known flat plate W-F and cut the corners and use it as a gauge.I got a couple of linen testers and a nice 10X stand magnifier on Amazon for under $20 for all 3 a couple of years back.


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TuskenRaider
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27 Dec 2014
11:04:46pm
re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596

Hi ocpicker;

You are using the wrong tool to measure a stamps image size by. Calipers are good for measuring
outside dimensions of diameters, thicknesses, and lengths of 3 dimensional objects! And so-so
at measuring inside diameters.

For flat objects you should use a flat millimeter scale and use a magnifying glass as an aid to
seeing that the '0' line is aligned with the edge of the stamp.

You also should get a perforation gauge designed to be used with stamps. Go to this discussion:

http://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_main.php?action=20&id=9345#64249

to see what a typical gauge looks like. They are accurate enough for stamps. Your vernier caliper
is too much overkill and is intended for 3-dimensional solids.

TuskenRaider

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ocpicker

28 Dec 2014
12:02:07am
re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596

Image Not FoundThe perforation gauge used was printed from a online gauge Image Not Foundstamp download

Here is additional photos as requested, and the gauge I used for perforations was downloaded and cut to show detail. It was a stamp gauge.

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ocpicker

28 Dec 2014
01:58:25am
re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596

Yes it would seem that way but, I checked the ruler over another ruler and the one I used to take these pictures is off by 1/2-3/4 of a mm. It is a cheap empire ruler and was cut wrong. So you need to add that measurement to the stamp. Now if Im correct in that measurement, should I take it in to be checked ???

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In loving memory of Carol, my wife for 52 years.

28 Dec 2014
05:52:07am

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re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596

You really need to buy a perforation gauge, and if you are going to be checking out stamps regularly you need to buy a linen tester - it's pretty foolproof and will save a lot of time.

You can never trust anything you download, or anything you copy on a copy machine or scanner because they do not hold dimensions well. They always shrink or swell the image. Or just use a flat press stamp and cut the corners off.

It's a lot cheaper to buy the right tools than to spend the money to get it expertized. I use my linen tester (well under $10) to determine stamp size, measure grilles on early US stamps, overprint spacing and length, identification of paper types, and a few other functions that escape me at the moment..

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BobbyBarnhart
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin

28 Dec 2014
08:43:03am
re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596

For USA, the Sonic Imagery Labs Precision U. S. Specialty Multi-Gauge is the best I've found:
Image Not Found

For general use I like the Linn's Multi-Gauge:
Image Not Found

and, for quick IDs, a metal gauge similar to this:

Image Not Found

Like 
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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. -Edmund Burke"

www.bobbybarnhart.net
Webpaper

In loving memory of Carol, my wife for 52 years.

28 Dec 2014
10:16:21am

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re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596


"should I take it in to be checked ??? "

You are in the LA area - take it to a stamp show or any of the few remaining stamp shops left and ask them to measure it for you. It's fast and it's free. Ask and they should be happy to let you watch and learn... there are tricks that can throw you off at least 1/4 of a mm.

In 30 plus years I've measured and watermarked tens of thousands of Washington-Franklin and bureau issues (no exaggeration - maybe a couple of hundred shoe boxes bought, checked and rolled back). The number of true "finds" (cat over $100) is perhaps a couple of three dozen or so, and that includes cracked plates, double transfers, etc.

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Philatarium
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APS #187980

28 Dec 2014
10:36:03am
re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596

I heartily second the recommendation of Sonic Imagery Labs gauge. I use it on foreign stamps, some of which have the same differences with flat versus rotary printing. It can do everything all the other perf gauges can do, plus much more. Well worth the initial cost.

Also, in case you're not familiar with it, there's usually quite a good monthly stamp show in Anaheim, typically the fourth Sunday of the month. However, in January it is superceded by the annual OrcoExpo, which is even larger, and is coming up in a couple of weeks, Jan 9-11, 2015.

Details on both shows are here:

http://www.stampshowsteve.com/

Additionally, in case you might not be aware of it, the winter APS show will be in Riverside Feb 13-15, 2015. It does not come very often to Southern California, so it's well worth making plans to attend.

http://stamps.org/AmeriStamp-Expo-ASE

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ocpicker

28 Dec 2014
10:47:34am
re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596

Thank all of you for your responces

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ocpicker

05 Jan 2015
04:52:29pm
re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596

Image Not FoundHello Everyone, I took your advise and purchased a Precision U.S. Specialty Multi-Gauge and am still confused. Please see photos, The perforations are 11x11

What do you think now ?
Image Not Found

I know I am a little off center, but that should still make these at least 22.25+ x 19.25+ correct.

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Webpaper

In loving memory of Carol, my wife for 52 years.

05 Jan 2015
09:40:00pm

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re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596

You will note that Scott states that Flat Plate stamps "measure about 18-1/2-19mm by 22mm high." "About" means about - not every line on every plate in every position is perfect. I've checked literally thousands of these over the past 35 years and my favorite quick and dirty method is to take a known flat plate stamp and cut the corners and put it in a clear cover holder. I can quickly place it over any stamp in question and unless the stamp is noticeably wider or longer than it is a flat plate stamp. My reference copy below measures 19-1/4mm wide by 22mm high - it is a flat plate.

Rotary stamps are ALWAYS at least 19-1/2-20mm wide OR 22-1/2-23mm tall. If it isn't wider or taller than the flat plate stamp used as a guide then it is a flat plate stamp. If you do a couple of dozen stamps you will see how distinct the rotary stamps stand out.

Image Not Found

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ocpicker

07 Jan 2015
12:51:56am
re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596

Ok People help me, I have verified that these 2 stamps are perforated 11 x 11, the size issue I have is that they are 19.25 mm x 22.25 mm, they have a curved perf. hole design, they are the proper coloring from what I understand. Sooooooo all of you pros out there what are your thoughts. Would you, with the information I have given you find it worthy to have graded and verified. Or does this seem to be a waist of time. My measurements were taken from a Precision U.S. Specialty Multi Guage.

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ocpicker

07 Jan 2015
12:55:04am
re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596

By the way, has the 552 ever been seen at 19.25 x 22.25 ?? or is there another stamp this could be ??

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BobbyBarnhart
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin

07 Jan 2015
01:52:19am
re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596

Bill Weiss is a recognized expert for US stamps and his plain Jane certs are very reasonably priced. His website is http://www.stampexpertizing.com/

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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. -Edmund Burke"

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TuskenRaider
Members Picture


07 Jan 2015
11:44:15am
re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596

Hi ocpicker;

In looking at your second scan, where you are measuring the height of this stamp, I can
see a bit of white space outside of the stamp. The correct method for measuring using
that type of gauge is to have the very edge of the image resting beneath the center
(splitting the line) of the zero line. Since it is not possible to make the zero line much thin-
ner and still be able to see it, you must place the exact center of the line over the edge
of the stamp design. Do this under 5-10x magnifier so you will know that it is dead on.

Also you can introduce further error by not being perfectly square with the stamp. In your
scan the gauge is rotated clockwise about 2º, this can further add to the problem. It takes
a lot of patience to learn these methods, and most of us have taken years to do so.

It would be of great value to you if you join a local stamp club. Someone there will be expe-
rienced in these skills. Most clubs do not require you to join and pay dues, just show up
and if they have coffee and donuts, toss some change in their jar.

Try this; first square up your gauge, and move it to the right so the end of the zero line is
directly under the dot/circle in the square ornament in the lower left corner. Then you
should be able to tell that your stamp edge is splitting the zero line.

It is highly unlikely that your stamp is worth that much, not impossible, just not likely.
They sell for that kind of money because they are extremely rare. Scott #596 is one
of the highest price US stamps, meaning they would be nearly impossible to find.

However even if your stamps is just another #552, you will have learned some useful
skills if you want to become a serious collector. US stamps are fun to study and collect.

Also I notice that your stamps have a very nice clean cancel, and would be worth a few
cents more, if kept on cover than if soaked off. Most members on here would agree, but
alas I don't collect covers, so I would either soak off or sell to someone who does collect
covers.

Good luck with your hunt....
TuskenRaider

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Webpaper

In loving memory of Carol, my wife for 52 years.

07 Jan 2015
12:25:23pm

Approvals
re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596

Just for your information if it does come back as a pair of 552's the cover itself, if clean and undamaged, is worth a few bucks. Manhattan, CA is a post office that was located in Los Angeles County and operated from 1903 to 1927. It has a Helbock scarcity rating of 2 (value between $2 and $8)in United States Post Offices - Volume 1 - The West.

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AGKING
Members Picture


07 Jan 2015
04:20:24pm
re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596

This string of posts illustrates exactly why I enjoy the W&F's so much.

Keep up the hunt, you will find the rare ones some day, just not today.

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Author/Postings
ocpicker

27 Dec 2014
08:17:46pm

Image Not FoundImage Not FoundImage Not FoundImage Not Found

Like
Login to Like
this post
Webpaper

In loving memory of Carol, my wife for 52 years.

27 Dec 2014
11:04:22pm

Approvals

re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596

Only my opinion but I don't think that you are going to get an accurate measurement with calipers - honest. They are designed to use on solid objects.

Get a magnifier (hand held or stand type - linen tester) with a mm gauge and you will be able to tell. Or take a known flat plate W-F and cut the corners and use it as a gauge.I got a couple of linen testers and a nice 10X stand magnifier on Amazon for under $20 for all 3 a couple of years back.


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Login to Like
this post

www.hipstamp.com/sto ...
Members Picture
TuskenRaider

27 Dec 2014
11:04:46pm

re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596

Hi ocpicker;

You are using the wrong tool to measure a stamps image size by. Calipers are good for measuring
outside dimensions of diameters, thicknesses, and lengths of 3 dimensional objects! And so-so
at measuring inside diameters.

For flat objects you should use a flat millimeter scale and use a magnifying glass as an aid to
seeing that the '0' line is aligned with the edge of the stamp.

You also should get a perforation gauge designed to be used with stamps. Go to this discussion:

http://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_main.php?action=20&id=9345#64249

to see what a typical gauge looks like. They are accurate enough for stamps. Your vernier caliper
is too much overkill and is intended for 3-dimensional solids.

TuskenRaider

Like
Login to Like
this post

www.webstore.com/sto ...
ocpicker

28 Dec 2014
12:02:07am

re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596

Image Not FoundThe perforation gauge used was printed from a online gauge Image Not Foundstamp download

Here is additional photos as requested, and the gauge I used for perforations was downloaded and cut to show detail. It was a stamp gauge.

Like
Login to Like
this post
ocpicker

28 Dec 2014
01:58:25am

re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596

Yes it would seem that way but, I checked the ruler over another ruler and the one I used to take these pictures is off by 1/2-3/4 of a mm. It is a cheap empire ruler and was cut wrong. So you need to add that measurement to the stamp. Now if Im correct in that measurement, should I take it in to be checked ???

Like
Login to Like
this post
Webpaper

In loving memory of Carol, my wife for 52 years.

28 Dec 2014
05:52:07am

Approvals

re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596

You really need to buy a perforation gauge, and if you are going to be checking out stamps regularly you need to buy a linen tester - it's pretty foolproof and will save a lot of time.

You can never trust anything you download, or anything you copy on a copy machine or scanner because they do not hold dimensions well. They always shrink or swell the image. Or just use a flat press stamp and cut the corners off.

It's a lot cheaper to buy the right tools than to spend the money to get it expertized. I use my linen tester (well under $10) to determine stamp size, measure grilles on early US stamps, overprint spacing and length, identification of paper types, and a few other functions that escape me at the moment..

Like
Login to Like
this post

www.hipstamp.com/sto ...

They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
28 Dec 2014
08:43:03am

re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596

For USA, the Sonic Imagery Labs Precision U. S. Specialty Multi-Gauge is the best I've found:
Image Not Found

For general use I like the Linn's Multi-Gauge:
Image Not Found

and, for quick IDs, a metal gauge similar to this:

Image Not Found

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. -Edmund Burke"

www.bobbybarnhart.ne ...
Webpaper

In loving memory of Carol, my wife for 52 years.

28 Dec 2014
10:16:21am

Approvals

re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596


"should I take it in to be checked ??? "

You are in the LA area - take it to a stamp show or any of the few remaining stamp shops left and ask them to measure it for you. It's fast and it's free. Ask and they should be happy to let you watch and learn... there are tricks that can throw you off at least 1/4 of a mm.

In 30 plus years I've measured and watermarked tens of thousands of Washington-Franklin and bureau issues (no exaggeration - maybe a couple of hundred shoe boxes bought, checked and rolled back). The number of true "finds" (cat over $100) is perhaps a couple of three dozen or so, and that includes cracked plates, double transfers, etc.

Like
Login to Like
this post

www.hipstamp.com/sto ...
Members Picture
Philatarium

APS #187980
28 Dec 2014
10:36:03am

re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596

I heartily second the recommendation of Sonic Imagery Labs gauge. I use it on foreign stamps, some of which have the same differences with flat versus rotary printing. It can do everything all the other perf gauges can do, plus much more. Well worth the initial cost.

Also, in case you're not familiar with it, there's usually quite a good monthly stamp show in Anaheim, typically the fourth Sunday of the month. However, in January it is superceded by the annual OrcoExpo, which is even larger, and is coming up in a couple of weeks, Jan 9-11, 2015.

Details on both shows are here:

http://www.stampshowsteve.com/

Additionally, in case you might not be aware of it, the winter APS show will be in Riverside Feb 13-15, 2015. It does not come very often to Southern California, so it's well worth making plans to attend.

http://stamps.org/AmeriStamp-Expo-ASE

Like
Login to Like
this post

"You gotta put down the duckie if you wanna play the saxophone. (Hoots the Owl -- Sesame Street)"

www.hipstamp.com/sto ...
ocpicker

28 Dec 2014
10:47:34am

re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596

Thank all of you for your responces

Like
Login to Like
this post
ocpicker

05 Jan 2015
04:52:29pm

re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596

Image Not FoundHello Everyone, I took your advise and purchased a Precision U.S. Specialty Multi-Gauge and am still confused. Please see photos, The perforations are 11x11

What do you think now ?
Image Not Found

I know I am a little off center, but that should still make these at least 22.25+ x 19.25+ correct.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Webpaper

In loving memory of Carol, my wife for 52 years.

05 Jan 2015
09:40:00pm

Approvals

re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596

You will note that Scott states that Flat Plate stamps "measure about 18-1/2-19mm by 22mm high." "About" means about - not every line on every plate in every position is perfect. I've checked literally thousands of these over the past 35 years and my favorite quick and dirty method is to take a known flat plate stamp and cut the corners and put it in a clear cover holder. I can quickly place it over any stamp in question and unless the stamp is noticeably wider or longer than it is a flat plate stamp. My reference copy below measures 19-1/4mm wide by 22mm high - it is a flat plate.

Rotary stamps are ALWAYS at least 19-1/2-20mm wide OR 22-1/2-23mm tall. If it isn't wider or taller than the flat plate stamp used as a guide then it is a flat plate stamp. If you do a couple of dozen stamps you will see how distinct the rotary stamps stand out.

Image Not Found

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.

www.hipstamp.com/sto ...
ocpicker

07 Jan 2015
12:51:56am

re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596

Ok People help me, I have verified that these 2 stamps are perforated 11 x 11, the size issue I have is that they are 19.25 mm x 22.25 mm, they have a curved perf. hole design, they are the proper coloring from what I understand. Sooooooo all of you pros out there what are your thoughts. Would you, with the information I have given you find it worthy to have graded and verified. Or does this seem to be a waist of time. My measurements were taken from a Precision U.S. Specialty Multi Guage.

Like
Login to Like
this post
ocpicker

07 Jan 2015
12:55:04am

re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596

By the way, has the 552 ever been seen at 19.25 x 22.25 ?? or is there another stamp this could be ??

Like
Login to Like
this post

They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
07 Jan 2015
01:52:19am

re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596

Bill Weiss is a recognized expert for US stamps and his plain Jane certs are very reasonably priced. His website is http://www.stampexpertizing.com/

Like
Login to Like
this post

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. -Edmund Burke"

www.bobbybarnhart.ne ...
Members Picture
TuskenRaider

07 Jan 2015
11:44:15am

re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596

Hi ocpicker;

In looking at your second scan, where you are measuring the height of this stamp, I can
see a bit of white space outside of the stamp. The correct method for measuring using
that type of gauge is to have the very edge of the image resting beneath the center
(splitting the line) of the zero line. Since it is not possible to make the zero line much thin-
ner and still be able to see it, you must place the exact center of the line over the edge
of the stamp design. Do this under 5-10x magnifier so you will know that it is dead on.

Also you can introduce further error by not being perfectly square with the stamp. In your
scan the gauge is rotated clockwise about 2º, this can further add to the problem. It takes
a lot of patience to learn these methods, and most of us have taken years to do so.

It would be of great value to you if you join a local stamp club. Someone there will be expe-
rienced in these skills. Most clubs do not require you to join and pay dues, just show up
and if they have coffee and donuts, toss some change in their jar.

Try this; first square up your gauge, and move it to the right so the end of the zero line is
directly under the dot/circle in the square ornament in the lower left corner. Then you
should be able to tell that your stamp edge is splitting the zero line.

It is highly unlikely that your stamp is worth that much, not impossible, just not likely.
They sell for that kind of money because they are extremely rare. Scott #596 is one
of the highest price US stamps, meaning they would be nearly impossible to find.

However even if your stamps is just another #552, you will have learned some useful
skills if you want to become a serious collector. US stamps are fun to study and collect.

Also I notice that your stamps have a very nice clean cancel, and would be worth a few
cents more, if kept on cover than if soaked off. Most members on here would agree, but
alas I don't collect covers, so I would either soak off or sell to someone who does collect
covers.

Good luck with your hunt....
TuskenRaider

Like
Login to Like
this post

www.webstore.com/sto ...
Webpaper

In loving memory of Carol, my wife for 52 years.

07 Jan 2015
12:25:23pm

Approvals

re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596

Just for your information if it does come back as a pair of 552's the cover itself, if clean and undamaged, is worth a few bucks. Manhattan, CA is a post office that was located in Los Angeles County and operated from 1903 to 1927. It has a Helbock scarcity rating of 2 (value between $2 and $8)in United States Post Offices - Volume 1 - The West.

Like
Login to Like
this post

www.hipstamp.com/sto ...
Members Picture
AGKING

07 Jan 2015
04:20:24pm

re: Confused - Please help. What is this Stamp? is it a 552-594-596

This string of posts illustrates exactly why I enjoy the W&F's so much.

Keep up the hunt, you will find the rare ones some day, just not today.

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
        

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