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Europe/Germany : German precancels

 

Author
Postings
GreenBottle

15 Oct 2014
08:08:20am
Hello, I found in my albums some precancels. There are some comments in German on the pages. As I found out they were canceled because of change of rollers in printing house in 1923. I also have list of differences between, I believe, old rollers and new ones.

What do you think of them? Are precancels interesting for some reason? 1923 it was the time after the World War, so I can't imagine why they had to change rollers. Or it was because of some progress in printing? Do you think they are interesting for some historical reason? I think they are authentic, why would anyone falsify precancels.

Looking forward for some answers, greetings!

http://www.sendspace.com/filegroup/OtnQiJehkxoXGcMwxb3ft4DPjeeiJdK%2Fb4eWUnMbUVxswbYdxLbVCs%2BEM5Dpst9kqNyFkgR%2FWOsI%2Bla8CX%2BMRJj14UPtZMktO83R2SFwMw69eR%2FhVzhiMAX%2BLl3SZgCvaKbSwOMTsWoSZBCOQaByLwZVj4LEa%2FpA

Moderator's Note: I did not activate this link. I attempted to check the site out, but it required acceptance of an agreement the terms of which bothered me. Downloading any files from the "sendspace" web site is done at your own risk, and you acknowledge that Stamporama is blameless and not accountable for any damages incurred thereby.

Bobby Barnhart
DB Moderator



(Modified by Moderator on 2014-10-15 12:29:44)
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bamra1

15 Oct 2014
12:11:03pm
re: German precancels

You have posted word for word the same question on another site. It is generally considered polite, when posting on a site, to allow a couple of days for people there to reply, before deciding to ask for exactly the same information elsewhere.

I repeat the same comment I made there. These are uncancelled surcharges. They are not precancels.

For benefit of those not wishing to risk the link, here is an example:


Image Not Found

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Bobstamp
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15 Oct 2014
12:57:47pm
re: German precancels

Volunteers have worked hard to make it easy to post images to the Stamporama discussion pages, and I certainly don't wish to go outside these pages just so I can see an images that could be seen as easily right here. And I have no intention of signing up for yet another web site that I would probably never access again. We have excellent resources available to us right here. Please use them!

Bob

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Poodle_Mum
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15 Oct 2014
02:01:48pm
re: German precancels

They're part of the inflation series. Germany was over their heads in debt, they had been de-militerised and forced to pay for the "expenses" of the war. All of the regular series were given surcharges.

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

16 Oct 2014
08:17:41am

Auctions
re: German precancels

Derek is correct... these are not precancels but surcharges or overprints changing the stamp's franking value.

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Rhinelander
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Support the Hobby -- Join the American Philatelic Society

16 Oct 2014
09:31:29am
re: German precancels

Alright, we all got that GreenBottle used the incorrect term precancels for these overprinted stamps, but the meat in this questions is about the changes in the roller (whatever that exactly means).

Many of the inflation period overprinted stamps were hastily prepared to keep up with the increasing need for stamps in ever higher denominations. Several private companies were subcontracted for this work. Specialists can distinguish these different printers primarily from the margin imprints. The private companies were given a template from the Berlin governmental printing office for the actual surcharges. However, the 4 x 5 template did not cover a whole sheet. Because of differences how the template block was assembled into a full print sheet, certain minor differences in the overprints between neighboring stamps and plate positions are also characteristic for certain printers only. It also appears some overprints were done on rotary vs. flat print presses, depending on the printing company. So, while the image is too small to make out any detail, it appears it is part of a specialist's page separating out different printings of this stamps.




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GreenBottle

10 Nov 2014
08:16:06am
re: German precancels

Sorry for the link, I didn't want to post so much photos on the thread and thought, that sendspace is safe.

@Rhinelander
Thank you, it was just what I was asking for. Now it all make sense to me. Someone recommended me Michels specialistic catalog for the surcharges and I'll try to get it somewhere.

I have another question. Surcharge mean that something is printed on already existing stamp? Those are old stamps that have been covered with new value? Or the new ones, that had to look like this? If anyone still need more photos than @bamra1 posted I can add them.

@bamra1
I don't find rude, that I'm looking for some answers in more than one place. Especially, that your answer is SO espanded...

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

10 Nov 2014
10:16:37am

Auctions
re: German precancels

yes, surcharge means that an additional or new value is printed over the previously printed stamp.

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"Save the USPS, buy stamps; save the hobby, use commemoratives"

juicyheads.com/link.php?PLJZJP
michael78651

10 Nov 2014
06:45:15pm
re: German precancels

And don't get "surcharge" confused with "overprint". An "overprint" is not a surcharge, but information added to the stamp after it was printed, such as the USA Molly Pitcher stamp, and the Kansas and Nebraska overprints.

Since you are working on Germany, some examples of German stamps that are overprinted as the officials with "Dienstmarke", the occupation issues with "Malmedy" and "Eupen", etc.

Of course there are exceptions. If there is a surcharge in addition to an overprint, it is considered a surcharge added, unless the stamp was surcharged first and the overprint added later, in which case the stamp is considered to have the overprint added. The same holds true if the stamps was overprinted first, and a surcharge added later. Scott is pretty good at describing whether a stamp is surcharged or overprinted.

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Author/Postings
GreenBottle

15 Oct 2014
08:08:20am

Hello, I found in my albums some precancels. There are some comments in German on the pages. As I found out they were canceled because of change of rollers in printing house in 1923. I also have list of differences between, I believe, old rollers and new ones.

What do you think of them? Are precancels interesting for some reason? 1923 it was the time after the World War, so I can't imagine why they had to change rollers. Or it was because of some progress in printing? Do you think they are interesting for some historical reason? I think they are authentic, why would anyone falsify precancels.

Looking forward for some answers, greetings!

http://www.sendspace.com/filegroup/OtnQiJehkxoXGcMwxb3ft4DPjeeiJdK%2Fb4eWUnMbUVxswbYdxLbVCs%2BEM5Dpst9kqNyFkgR%2FWOsI%2Bla8CX%2BMRJj14UPtZMktO83R2SFwMw69eR%2FhVzhiMAX%2BLl3SZgCvaKbSwOMTsWoSZBCOQaByLwZVj4LEa%2FpA

Moderator's Note: I did not activate this link. I attempted to check the site out, but it required acceptance of an agreement the terms of which bothered me. Downloading any files from the "sendspace" web site is done at your own risk, and you acknowledge that Stamporama is blameless and not accountable for any damages incurred thereby.

Bobby Barnhart
DB Moderator



(Modified by Moderator on 2014-10-15 12:29:44)

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this post
bamra1

15 Oct 2014
12:11:03pm

re: German precancels

You have posted word for word the same question on another site. It is generally considered polite, when posting on a site, to allow a couple of days for people there to reply, before deciding to ask for exactly the same information elsewhere.

I repeat the same comment I made there. These are uncancelled surcharges. They are not precancels.

For benefit of those not wishing to risk the link, here is an example:


Image Not Found

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
Bobstamp

15 Oct 2014
12:57:47pm

re: German precancels

Volunteers have worked hard to make it easy to post images to the Stamporama discussion pages, and I certainly don't wish to go outside these pages just so I can see an images that could be seen as easily right here. And I have no intention of signing up for yet another web site that I would probably never access again. We have excellent resources available to us right here. Please use them!

Bob

Like
Login to Like
this post

www.ephemeraltreasur ...

A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
15 Oct 2014
02:01:48pm

re: German precancels

They're part of the inflation series. Germany was over their heads in debt, they had been de-militerised and forced to pay for the "expenses" of the war. All of the regular series were given surcharges.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Let's find a cure for Still's Disease, Breast Cancer and Canine Addison's Disease. We CAN find a cure and save lives!!"

drkellyfleming.ca
Members Picture
amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
16 Oct 2014
08:17:41am

Auctions

re: German precancels

Derek is correct... these are not precancels but surcharges or overprints changing the stamp's franking value.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Save the USPS, buy stamps; save the hobby, use commemoratives"

juicyheads.com/link. ...
Members Picture
Rhinelander

Support the Hobby -- Join the American Philatelic Society
16 Oct 2014
09:31:29am

re: German precancels

Alright, we all got that GreenBottle used the incorrect term precancels for these overprinted stamps, but the meat in this questions is about the changes in the roller (whatever that exactly means).

Many of the inflation period overprinted stamps were hastily prepared to keep up with the increasing need for stamps in ever higher denominations. Several private companies were subcontracted for this work. Specialists can distinguish these different printers primarily from the margin imprints. The private companies were given a template from the Berlin governmental printing office for the actual surcharges. However, the 4 x 5 template did not cover a whole sheet. Because of differences how the template block was assembled into a full print sheet, certain minor differences in the overprints between neighboring stamps and plate positions are also characteristic for certain printers only. It also appears some overprints were done on rotary vs. flat print presses, depending on the printing company. So, while the image is too small to make out any detail, it appears it is part of a specialist's page separating out different printings of this stamps.




Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
GreenBottle

10 Nov 2014
08:16:06am

re: German precancels

Sorry for the link, I didn't want to post so much photos on the thread and thought, that sendspace is safe.

@Rhinelander
Thank you, it was just what I was asking for. Now it all make sense to me. Someone recommended me Michels specialistic catalog for the surcharges and I'll try to get it somewhere.

I have another question. Surcharge mean that something is printed on already existing stamp? Those are old stamps that have been covered with new value? Or the new ones, that had to look like this? If anyone still need more photos than @bamra1 posted I can add them.

@bamra1
I don't find rude, that I'm looking for some answers in more than one place. Especially, that your answer is SO espanded...

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
10 Nov 2014
10:16:37am

Auctions

re: German precancels

yes, surcharge means that an additional or new value is printed over the previously printed stamp.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Save the USPS, buy stamps; save the hobby, use commemoratives"

juicyheads.com/link. ...
michael78651

10 Nov 2014
06:45:15pm

re: German precancels

And don't get "surcharge" confused with "overprint". An "overprint" is not a surcharge, but information added to the stamp after it was printed, such as the USA Molly Pitcher stamp, and the Kansas and Nebraska overprints.

Since you are working on Germany, some examples of German stamps that are overprinted as the officials with "Dienstmarke", the occupation issues with "Malmedy" and "Eupen", etc.

Of course there are exceptions. If there is a surcharge in addition to an overprint, it is considered a surcharge added, unless the stamp was surcharged first and the overprint added later, in which case the stamp is considered to have the overprint added. The same holds true if the stamps was overprinted first, and a surcharge added later. Scott is pretty good at describing whether a stamp is surcharged or overprinted.

Like
Login to Like
this post
        

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