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Europe/Great Britain : Strange sizes of Machins???

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TuskenRaider
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01 Jul 2014
12:54:51am
Hi everyone;

I got a chance to take a break and sort some British stamps. As I
sorted out several hundred Machins, I saw something odd. I had several
½p Greenish Blue (MH22) stamps lined up in a row, and noticed one was a
great deal bigger than the others. When I checked Scott's it showed
the stamp as being issued 17½mm x 21½mm. I found one that was 17¾ x
22mm. That means it is almost .020" too tall, or 2/100". That is
nearly as big as the diameter of one of the perforations. Very easy to
spot when next to a normal stamp!!

Has anyone ever heard of this kind of error before. I know it is
impossible for the stamp to have stretched after printing. I know this
because these stamps are notorious for the ink cracking if these
stamps are creased. So there is no way for this stamp to be stretched
without cracking the ink.

My Stanley Gibbons is 1975 issue and makes no mention of this error.
Scott's doesn't say anything about them or booklet panes issued in
different sizes than sheet stamps. This stamp is perfed on all 4
sides.

Any clue what I have here??

Thank you in advance
Ken Tall Pi
nes

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2010ccg
01 Jul 2014
09:19:05am
re: Strange sizes of Machins???

Could it be one from a S/Sheet or a booklet? Will check my collection Interesting I know some are different shades of colour because of that... Cheryl

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cdj1122
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
01 Jul 2014
11:48:42am
re: Strange sizes of Machins???

" .... ½p Greenish Blue (MH22) stamps lined up in a row, and noticed one was a
great deal bigger than the others. .... "


The short answer, Ken, is yes, someone has heard, or read of a slightly different size Machin.

Some months ago Doug mentioned it in his Deegam Reports and explained the cause.
But today my often fabulous memory has failed me.
As you may have seen in other threads, I am bound for Honolulu, Hawaii. My Deegam disc is packed safely in one of the bags (" I cannot imagine leaving home without it") as are the partly sorted 18,000 Machins that I recently soaked and now have sorted by color varieties into envelopes.
Tomorrow morning, 8:30 MDST from Las Vegas.
Later this week when I get settled in at my younger son's house, I'll see if I can find the info about different size Machins.
As you proceed with any reasonably large sample (several thousand) you should find several interesting curiosities that are not likely to be listed in Scott's catalog, because Scott is a general world wide catalog.
When you can afford it and have become sufficiently excited and curious you should look into the "Complete Deegam Machin Handbook". it will open up the vast world of Machin collecting.
By the way, avoid the older paper version because it is now out of date. The disc is updated regularly and with the quarterly Deegam reports on-line you will be better off and informed as the Machins approach the fiftieth year anniversary in 2017. Some dealers will offer the paper version, possibly unknowingly, and often ask more for a clean used copy than a new up to date disc will cost from the author.
In the meantime several members have written some very informative threads in this topic.

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".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
TuskenRaider
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01 Jul 2014
07:50:47pm
re: Strange sizes of Machins???

Hi Cheryl and CDJ;

Just to update some info from my previous post. I've now checked several dozen machins for size variation. I have found that they are held to very close tolerances, of .002"-.004". I'm good at extreme precision measurements from my engineering background. I've inspected many thousands of tiny automotive and electronic components with stereo microscopes, vernier calipers, and micrometers.

These stamps could never stretch to that dimension. This is because of the ink's tendency to get varicose vein-like cracks due to even slight creases. the type of inks and paper used to make the image are very prone to cracking. I have destroyed many dozens of them because of this problem.

Happy Stamping. And the mystery continues.
Ken Tall Pines


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cdj1122
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
02 Jul 2014
12:25:39am
re: Strange sizes of Machins???

"..... These stamps could never stretch to that dimension. ...."

I wish I could recall the explanation, but it was not stretching or similar to the differences from wet and dry printing. It may take me a while but once I get settled in I'll find the source.

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".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
TuskenRaider
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02 Jul 2014
01:28:34am
re: Strange sizes of Machins???

Hi CDJ;

Just another thought on this thread. Even if these stamps were printed on damp paper, as is sometimes done for better ink acceptance, they must always be completely dry before perforation. If not the punches will tear instead of cutting. I once toured several large printing firms when I took up Publishing in College. Large holes like in loose-leaf binding are done with a paper drill, or hollow punch. Stamp holes are done with a solid square-ended pin.

In looking closer at these stamps, not only is the image bigger, but the whole footprint is larger and the perforating pins a spaced farther apart!! I had heard that they are printed by more than one firm, and that is probably why they are a bit different. I'm sure the Royal Post, is not bothered by these varieties. It just means they can sell that many more varieties to us collectors.

Happy Stamping'
Ken Tall Pines

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phos45
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07 Jul 2014
11:52:21am
re: Strange sizes of Machins???

Q . are you refering to actual printed face or box, or cut size of stamp ?

coil and booklets may vary w/h from cutter ...

regarding face, some early acid etched, non harrison may be marginally smaller - litho

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TuskenRaider
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07 Jul 2014
11:31:24pm
re: Strange sizes of Machins???

Hi Phos45;

Quote:

"In looking closer at these stamps, not only is the image bigger, but the whole footprint is larger and the perforating pins a spaced farther apart!! Ken Tall Pines"



Re-read my thread and replies!

Ken Tall Pines

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sgm
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24 Jul 2018
09:34:37am
re: Strange sizes of Machins???

Does anyone know what the reason was for the larger size?

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phos45
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24 Jul 2018
02:13:21pm
re: Strange sizes of Machins???

press and engraving methods evolved from acid-etched to EME ... FORGERS use again small press - and design ratio varies ...


2 registration errors - GENUINE / FORGERY

Image Not Found


Image Not Found


Image Not Found

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phos45
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24 Jul 2018
02:59:22pm
re: Strange sizes of Machins???

imperforates offer die analysis ///


https://picclick.co.uk/Stamps/Great-Britain/Elizabeth-II/Machin-Definitives/?q=+imperforates

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Plantman1951
02 Feb 2019
07:16:25pm

Auctions
re: Strange sizes of Machins???

Hi

Anyone thought that this might just be a forgery. Well know within these Gold machins

I am currently working on the later coded 1st/2nd class security machins and got a few suspected forgeries.

It is well known within London that many small shops are approached to sell booklets of stamps with incentives such as buy 12 pay for ten booklets. Something the GB post office would never do.

We want to help our customers understand what stamp fraud is, as well as give guidance on how to make sure you purchase genuine stamps, and avoid buying counterfeit and used stamps.

How can I be sure that I'm buying genuine stamps?

Genuine stamps will have the following anti-fraud features:
1.Die cuts within the body of the stamps
2.The words 'Royal Mail' printed in a special ink across the surface of the stamp
3.Wider oval perforations along both sides, close to the base of the stamp
4.Books and sheets of stamps will have a secure laminate underprint featuring the words ‘Royal Mail’

Excerpt from Royal Mail


How can I spot used or counterfeit stamps?

Counterfeit stamps vary in quality and type and may be difficult to identify. Some may have one or more of the following characteristics on our 1st and 2nd Class stamps:
1.Cost less than the official Royal Mail prices
2.Security ovals on each side of the stamp are missing or uneven
3.Unusual colourings
4.Uneven borders
5.An unusually shiny surface
6.Stamps may be stuck on to what appears to be greaseproof paper
7.Books of stamps with anything other than 6 or 12 stamps included. Royal Mail only sell 1st and 2nd class stamps in books of 6 and 12.


Plantman

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