Members of the VC (the volunteer committee) have been discussing the possibility of incorporating SOR. Several of us (Tim, Arno, Bobby, and me) have been discussing it for a long time.
There have been several reasons for considering incorporation, and those that have been constant include protecting officers, protecting intellectual and cyber property (our auction and other web code, the domain), and providing a legal mechanism for collecting and recording money. It will also allow us to take over the domain and server that Roy Lingen has essentially been footing for us for years now (Roy is fully on board with this). Other possibilities that pop up include improving our ability to harness funds to permit us to do bigger work. What that work might be, whether philanthropic, outreach, bibliographic, or something else, isn't clear; in fact, we may stay essentially the same even if we incorporate. There are no plans beyond an interest in incorporating. Basically, we want to move SOR on to the point where it is self funded entity that can stand on it's own two feet and is not dependent on the largess of just one person. Roy has been fantastic the way he has supported SOR financially ever since SOR became computerized, which is about 12 years now, but it is time for us to grow up.
I think we'd be communicating with you even without the lessons we learned from Bidstart's collapse, but that fiasco makes us all the more sensitive to both ensuring there's good communication on our end and that you all have an opportunity to both ask questions and have input into what we do.
One result of incorporation will be the necessity of paying the initial and annual fees required. Fees range from about $150 to $600, depending on the corporate status we implement; subsequent annual fees will be considerably less, but IF we move forward, there will be fees that SOR must pay. We have also been talking about the means to generate the revenue to pay these fees.
We would like to open the idea up to a discussion. And I'd like to break it into two parts. One is a focus on the merits of incorporation; we'd like to hear your thoughts. the other, which i'll move to another thread is any thoughts of money. We're really not talking too much about the money aspect right (no, we're not ignoring it, trust me), but we think it subservient to the idea of incorporation. If incorporation is not in our future, then money is moot. If it is a good idea, then we'll work out mechanism(s). We are in agreement though that we don't want to introduce a membership fee, we would like SOR to be free to join, so we will be looking at other options.
So, let this thread focus on the merits of incorporation: good, bad, indifferent. What it might mean to you. This is also a good time to see if anyone is interested in helping us with the transition; writing bylaws, looking at form 990 and other tax filings, and other really sexy stuff. If you feel more comfortable, you can write me back channel for volunteering opportunities.
David Teisler, President and Auctioneer, SOR
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02:51:37pm
This is definitely a good thing to consider. In this internet age, we need to protect ourselves as much as possible and right now, without anything (yes, we are a family club but that means nothing in the wider world of the web), we leave ourselves with vulnerability.
I fully support this idea. I also agree that it's time we stand together rather than on Roy's shoulders (who I can't thank enough for his generosity over the years for our website).
I agree that SOR should remain a free club. In regards to finance issues of incorporation, I think we can come up with some good ideas, when that time presents itself.
Kelly
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Believe it or not I have been wondering about this as well, just on my lonesome. Now I will think about it in more earnest. It would be nice to be self-sufficient.
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Incorporation is a good idea, to help protect SOR. It also will protect the officers and members, because if a legal problem ever develops in the future, it is the corporation that is liable and the members and usually the officers not.
I think with the educational value presented by SOR, it might be possible to pursue non-profit corporation status.
Funding of the fees associated with incorporation and running the website can be collected in many ways, including annual dues, donations from the membership, fees collected through member sales (store fees, end of sale commissions).
I would not be in favor of annual dues as I think it would chase many members away. Donations will work if the funding can be quantified on a per member-basis so everyone will know what their "fair share" is and of course a member could always donate more or less depending on their financial situation. Charging small fees to sellers will generate a constant revenue stream. Adding the ability for sellers to run stores will bring in monthly revenue that can be used to increase the education aspect of SOR.
Of course incorporation will bring in a required level of bureaucracy. There will be the need for a charter, by-laws, and officers. SOR could probably use the APS charter and by-laws as a guide, develop the same to fit SOR needs and functions and present it to the membership for debate and a vote. It probably would be a good idea to present a proposed charter and by-laws section by section to get input as a work in progress then present the entire when completed. Would make for easier passage.
I think it is a good step forward, but there probably will be resistance from those who do not want change as they continue to access SOR with their Commodore C-64 computers.
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04:01:27pm
Incorporation is an excellent idea if for no other reason than to protect the officers and members from financial liability. I am sure we are all aware how easy it is to sue anyone for anything these days, and the corporate shield against personal liability can prevent most of such actions from succeeding.
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Good point. Since SOR is an affiliate (correct term?) of the APS, might have to check with the APS to see if there are any restrictions.
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04:04:41pm
I do not know how it works in Canada, but if we decide to file for incorporation in the USA, we must also decide which state in which to file. Keep in in mind that wherever we file, we must have a registered agent in that state or province.
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My stamp club, the BC Philatelic Society, long ago considered and dropped the idea of becoming a registered charity. The sticking point was the necessary bureaucracy, which included the requirement of a formal annual audit. No member was willing to commit to the responsibility of overseeing the club as more than an informal association, especially the then-treasurer and now the current treasurer. Money wasn't the issue, however. The problem was the PITA factor.
I know nothing at all about the requirements of becoming a corporation, either in Canada or in the U.S., but I think it goes without saying that a much more formal executive structure would be required, not to mention arrangements for handling money, regardless of how funds might be raised. And, perhaps the most important question of all, do we actually have members who would be willing to take on these responsibilities, and other members who would eventually volunteer to replace them?
Obtaining a domain name and moving to a different server would seem to be relatively simple compared to incorporation. I would think that donations would easily handle the costs of that project, which I'm sure Roy Lingen would appreciate. He has done yeoman's service for us, and deserves a break.
Bob
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Is there a way with the auctions that the sellers could voluntarily designate certain auctions for club donation? We do this with a club I am in and I am often surprised what it generates.
We could also have a sponsorship level for members. If they choose to be a sponsor they could donate funds and in return get a 'sponsor' label under their name. Another stamp board does this and they reward the sponsors with some special privileges.
I think the key is keeping it free, but we should give people that feel strongly about supporting this an avenue to do so.
I don't know how much more work either of these ideas will create for you guys. I am amazed at the amount of work this must take to keep going from people that have busy lives and still find the time to put into this.
All this being said there are certainly some lawyers that are members that can speak to the incorporation side of things. I have incorporated a few times but it was always a for profit business doing it's business in one state. I was also involved with developing a non-profit but I did not understand everything that went on. That's what the lawyers were for.
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05:11:36pm
Pat,
A lawyer can only practice in a jurisdiction where he/she is licensed. So before we can solicit free help, we must decide in which state (if the USA) or province (if Canada) we wish to incorporate in. Then we can see if there are any member/lawyers who reside therein.
Bobby (a lawyer licensed in Maine)
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I (and I suspect the members you have in 84 countries outside North America) are going to find it very difficult to join in this discussion because I have no idea what YOU mean by Incorporation.
Under English law it can mean anything from Unlimited Private Company (not to be touched with a 60 foot bargepole), through Public Limited Company (a snip at £50000 minimum capital) to Community Interest Company (which is quite distinct from having Charitable Status - which in turn would NOT be considered to constitute Incorporation.
I obviously can't afford to pay any of our lawyer members to explain it to me! But a brief summary of what you are actually contemplating would help us feel a little more involved.
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06:46:32pm
bamra,
Rather than reinvent the wheel, CLICK HERE to read a Wiki article that explains what an American corporation is and how it differs from the meaning applied in Britain. The most important aspect of incorporating (at least in my mind) is limitation of liability (see the section titled "Limited Liability" about 1/3 down).
Bobby
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Just to get a very very broad overview of the "legal" steps (ignoring the by-laws, officers, unemployment taxes...) for the US:
1. Obtain EIN from IRS. You must have entity name, address, and agent ready. This is free.
2. Incorporate in a state. This should cost less than $100, depending on the state.
After that, if you want to seek a determination letter as a non-profit corporation with the IRS, you will need to submit all the supporting paperwork and filing fees. This will cost ~$500 if you do it yourself. My guess is that the fees have gone up in the past 10 years, so this amount is likely subject to adjustment. The process typically takes 6-9 months for simple/small corporations.
As an NPO, as long as the NPO revenue does not exceed $25K per year (averaged over 3 years), you will NOT need to file annual paperwork with the IRS.
However, be forewarned that because this site does auctions, it will take some work to convince the IRS you are truly non-profit. Expect 1-2 extra iterations in the approval process. In addition, you can expect the IRS to ask what steps you are taking to assure the IRS that SoR is not a business extension of the original owner, and what degree of control the original owner will have over the control and operation of the site.
Seeking NPO status is a lot of initial paperwork, but as long as your revenue stays low, it will save you a LOT of other Federal/State paperwork in the long run.
This post is not intended to oppose the idea in any way. Just wanted you to be ready to deal with certain things so you don't get taken by surprise.
k
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Delaware is the state used by most corporations because they usually side with the corporation.
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07:07:02am
You bring up a lot of interesting points, Michael. My brain is too nonfunctioning at the moment to address them all (too early and coffee not ready yet), but I'll just hit some highlights.
Roy did not approach the VC with this idea, it was put forth by concerned members who foresee that there may come a time when it will be necessary for Stamporama to own and support its own website. This cannot happen unless Stamporama is an entity capable of ownership. Of all the entities available (simple partnership, a DBA company, LLP, LLC, corporation, etc.), a (social club) not for profit corporation has been put forth as the best alternative. There are costs, fees, and reporting requirements involved with all the various entities, but the structure and benefits of a "social club non profit" (see IRC §501(c)(7)) fits what we perceive to be our future needs well.
This is just the beginning of a long process and nothing is written in stone. Your input is exactly why this thread has been started - to explore all possibilities and weigh all alternatives. With anything we eventually decide upon, there will be certain criteria which will be constant such as site of formation, registered agent, board of directors, officers, etc.
Oh, and one very important thing - SOR is not my client, and I am here merely as a member. (I have to go get coffee...
)
-Bobby
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thanks for all your thoughts and ideas. keep them coming.
Incidentally, Michael from Turkey, your commentary matches our thought process pretty closely, except yours only took a few moments and followed a rather linear process.
Unless something is utterly erroneous, I am not planning to comment until you've exhausted yourselves
and don't underestimate the attractiveness of impeachment Michael. I might just take a slice of impeach pie with I scream (much darker than I intended... chocolate i scream?)
David
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09:28:18am
Ahhhh, coffeeeeeeee! I can think now!
Michael, you addressed something else which is directly on point with our discussions: ownership of the website. Your idea with respect to an individual owning the website and transferring title whenever he/she tires of it or is unable to continue, is basically what we have now. Roy has graciously and unselfishly carried this burden, and, although he has made no overtures toward relinquishment of such, if and when he does, we will need to have a mechanism in place whereby ownership can be transferred.
There also might come a time when Tim "the Wizard" Auld is unable to keep us up and functioning, at which time we may need to expend funds to accomplish what Tim and Roy have done voluntarily in the past.
I am not privy to the discussions had by the VC, but I would imagine that such discussions center around an alternative to having the fiscal and physical burden of ownership on the back of one individual. Also, if SOR ever does need to raise money, the owner of the website will probably be liable to the taxing authority of whichever jurisdiction wherein he/she resides. Personally, I think this is a most unfair position to place a member.
Which is why we are having this discussion...
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David's thoughts are correct and to the point. Now I'd like to hear Roy's say on this.
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12:33:18pm
Bobby - your point on the issue of the website has been a concern of mine for quite some time.
For example, I believe it was last year and it was - thank God - nothing that kept Tim there - but he was in the hospital. Had it God forbid, been an extended stay and we had a programming problem with the website, everything is resting on Tim's shoulders. I know he would like to find people to share that weight with, at least as back-up individuals.
Likewise the same with Roy, should something God forbid happen that Roy is unable to provide the funding behind our website domain that he so graciously has given us all these years, SOR could in effect end up folding.
I don't know if people realise how much of the operation of SOR rests solely on the shoulders of these two men.
For this reason, I support whatever move is necessary for us to be able to be independent. Now does this mean incorporation or some other option? I do not know.
What I do know is that a lot of issues have been over can SOR receive funds from members, how can that happen, who would bear responsibility, etc. (Which is part of the other thread re: monies).
SOR is totally based on volunteers. From the top on down - the VC, moderators, committees, right down through to all our members. We all happily volunteer our services (whether it is via committees, web-design, philatelic research on the discussion board, etc.)
I'm open to all ideas.
Kelly
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This is an excellent discussion. I think at this stage it might help to give a little background on the proposal to incorporate. I think Kelly has summed up a lot of my thoughts and concerns very well. We are completely dependent on Roy for the provision of the server. Roy has been fantastic with the way he has supported Stamporama all these years, but heaven forbid, what would we do if something happens and Roy is no longer able to provide the server for us. But more importantly in my mind, Roy has paid the cost for Stamporama for the last 10+ years, I don't think that it reasonable for us to expect Roy to continue to pay the cost for ever to keep Stamporama going.
So, if we are going to grow up as an organization and pay our own bills we need to collect and handle money. If we are going to collect money from our members to meet out obligations, we are dealing with other peoples money and as such we should deal with the money formally and openly. We will need to have a Treasurer to handle the money and we will need to have a bank account. Here in the US, in order to have a bank account for an organization you have to have a Federal EIN tax number. In getting a Federal EIN tax number you need to be incorporated in some way.
I have been looking into this for quite a while and have been discussing it with the VC and with Bobby, who while is not part of the VC, has been very helpful with his legal background. I have also talked the proposal through with Roy who is very much on board with the proposal. I think he feels a bit like a proud Dad whose child is finally ready to start growing up. 
We would want to incorporate in a state where one of the officers live in. When you incorporate you have to have a registered agent living in that state. You can pay an organization to be that registered agent for you, but why pay someone if one of our officers can play the role.
I have been looking into incorporating in Minnesota, because that is where I live and I have been through the incorporation process three times here in Minnesota. To register as a non-profit corporation here in Minnesota costs $90 and can be done online. To apply for the Federal EIN number can be done online and there is no cost involved. The best type of Federal Non-profit status for us to apply for is called a 501(c)(7) which is specifically setup for Social Clubs just like Stamporama and costs around $500 to apply for. A 501(c)(7) organization doesn't have to pay company or income tax to the Federal or State governments, but it can't provide tax deduction receipts to people who make donations to it. So any money that you give to Stamporama would not be a tax deduction for you. I think that this is fair and reasonable because around half of our members do not live in the US anyway, so wouldn't be able to claim a tax deduction no matter what filing status we have with the US government.
The funds that we would be looking to bring in to pay our bills are not considerable, I'll summarize them below:
1. The server costs a little under $100 per month and so for our purposes let's use that amount.
2. The domain costs $15 to renew each year
3. If we need specialist operating system support from the server hosting company it costs $75 each time you call. For our purposes lets assume 2 calls each year.
That comes to $1365. Let's assume that there are some misc expenses that are not immediately coming to mind and role it up to $1500 each year, with initial setup fees of around $600.
I hope this gives you all some perspective on where the proposal came from and what would be involved financially.
Regards ... Tim.
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It is not required to incorporate in a state where there an officer lives. The reason is that to incorporate will require a charter and by-laws. Those documents to be approved by the SOR membership, will also have to include provisions for election/appointment of officers. Incorporate in Minnesota, for example, but understand that there may not always be an officer in Minnesota.
I would not be in favor of an organization with permanent officers where dues are required to be paid. I have belonged to one such group for almost 30 years, and the membership has no voice in the direction that the organization goes or how it is run. This causes plenty of friction and dissent at times. The result is that the permanent officers justify themselves to the membership, and those not liking it drop off the rolls as the group gets smaller and the financial burden on those who remain gets higher.
At this point, SOR is a different, because there are no fees assessed. People don't have a financial investment in SOR, and can come and go as they please. That attitude will change for many when/if membership requires payment of fees.
SOR will need a new mission statement, and will need to assess what it is that SOR does and will do in the long term. It will also have to seek out what it is that the membership expects from SOR, how to meet those needs and expectations, and determine how many will remain on the site if SOR becomes a pay for membership group. If a large number the 2000 or so membership is expected to leave the site if fees are charged, then SOR needs to decide if that is acceptable, or if it is contrary to SOR's mission and goals. The Texas Philatelic Association is considered to be one of the better local organizations in the hobby. Still, it has less than 500 members.
These are just some things to consider before the final decision of do it or not is made.
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06:08:07pm
To my knowledge, no state requires the physical presence of an officer or board member, or even the original incorporator. What is required is a resident, registered agent. This can even be a business entity, but in our case an individual would be best.
There are no requirements for permanency of officers or board members. In fact, while the By Laws will name an initial slate of officers and a board of directors, it will also set forth the means by which they can be changed, fired, impeached (there is that word again David), etc.
Once incorporated, most states have the option of filing a simple annual report online. As a nonprofit, the only fees would be minimal filing fees.
I do not believe anyone wants a dues paying membership. There are many ways to raise money for an organization such as ours with limited needs, but that can be explored later (but I do not believe anyone has suggested any sort of fees).
I also believe that everyone would like to see Stamporama continue to be run by volunteers who do so for the love of the hobby (and whatever personal power trips they might be on
).
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"To my knowledge, no state requires the physical presence of an officer or board member, or even the original incorporator. What is required is a resident, registered agent. This can even be a business entity, but in our case an individual would be best.
There are no requirements for permanency of officers or board members. In fact, while the By Laws will name an initial slate of officers and a board of directors, it will also set forth the means by which they can be changed, fired, impeached (there is that word again David), etc.
Once incorporated, most states have the option of filing a simple annual report online. As a nonprofit, the only fees would be minimal filing fees."
To the best of my knowledge and experience, the above is correct. Also, technically you do not have to be incorporated to obtain an EIN, but you do need one to open up a bank account (there is that option on the EIN application).
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Kim,
I'll contact you thru the SOR message system for more information on this.
Regards ... Tim
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Got the PM and replied (twice). Read the 2nd shorter PM first.
Best wishes,
k
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Kim, I have a business that is registered in Texas. I did not need an EIN to open my business bank accounts. However, I did have to obtain an EIN from IRS, because I use contractors for labor. It was easy to get the EIN. I did it online at the IRS web site.
I'm not sure if there is a difference between SOR and a business.
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Good important point. That is correct, you do not specifically need an EIN. But were you able to open an individual/business account without any sort of TIN? You can use your own SSN or something that can serve as a TIN. That is sometimes done by individuals running private proprietorships. The options for TIN include SSN, ITIN, EIN, or Passport number.
However, it appeared that the context of the discussion was limited individual liability via incorporation. So that pretty much only leaves EIN as an option.
It used to be that the S&L, state-chartered banks, credit unions... in Texas would allow you to open up small accounts for charity/clubs without any sort of TIN using some special category, but I was not aware of any that still allowed you to open up those types of new accounts. I'm not in banking, and I don't remember what that category was called; and I don't recall any of the large banking institutions ever allowing that. The last time I helped a charity open up an account without a TIN was at a credit union about 15 years ago. They were willing to open up the account without a TIN, but they needed a formal supporting organization letter, and they did stipulate that they eventually would need some sort of TIN. So I advised them to go ahead and get the EIN.
In a nutshell, the TIN you use depends on what you are trying to do.
k
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Without going into the legalese, if the SOR club is to become fully independent (and I am ALL for it), in whatever form, it will need to set up a limited liability entity, ie as a corporation of some recognized form, with officers, checkbooks etc.. and present to the membership a start up budget, and then an annual operational budget.
It is definitely mature on our part to thank Roy for his most generous support, and to ease any further burden on him by becoming self contained.
We may want to poll the membership on it, and on related issues (fees, budgets etc..) but it is not mandatory to do it yet as the Board and the VCs can be entrusted to present their recommendations. Voting (if any) could come later, from the membership at large.
From a set up stand point, start up cost are likely to be different from annual operational costs. I have touched briefly on the money issue under the corresponding Money Post heading...but this should come later, I think.
If SOR (or a trusted person acting on behalf of SOR) were to set up a (SOR) bank account, one could easily gauge the level of support, by asking for start up funding donations to our membership at large (Paypal would open it to our worldwide membership quite easily).
The start up costs and the projected ongoing budget plan would then determine our approach for on-going funding.
Just some thoughts, in my jet lagging state (yes I am back), as I know I have not digested all that has been written here before.
rrr...
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09:33:52pm
Right now, if I wanted to do so, I could form a personal corporation, register the name Stamporama.xyz, start my own website titled "Stamporama, For People Who Love to Talk About Stamps," and there is not a thing anyone here (except maybe Roy, but at great expense to himself) could do about it since "Stamporama" as a business or legal entity does not exist.
What we need is your input on the form "Stamporama" should take to go to the next level. For now, put aside thoughts of finance, raising money, voting, etc. and look for the best structure. Admittedly, most of our effort to date has been along the lines of a non profit corporation like the American Philatelic Society, but maybe you can see better things elsewhere.
If we do eventually settle on a non profit corporation, and decide to headquarter in the USA, we will then need to decide whether to form a 501c3 (like the APS) or a 501c7 (like many local stamp clubs). Google your ideas and give us some input.
David has already said he will not try to influence anyone until the membership has sorted through things. I will try to do the same (but, by now you know how difficult it is for me to keep my hands off things).
I have no official standing here. I am just like you, an interested and concerned member.
-Bobby
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I'm glad that Bobby is bringing us back to the bigger idea: you can talk details, of course, but I'm hoping you explore what we could be IF we made changes; and, yes, you may certainly feel free to share your excitement at or dread of change.
David
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There has been much discussion on the type of incorporation that would or could occur as well as the potential states to incorporate in. My question is, are there people willing to take on the roles prescribed? We seem to be tip toeing around this point throughout the thread with all the "someone" "a trusted person" "a SOR representative" references. All this conversation is moot if we have no one comfortable with taking on those responsibilities.
I certainly wouldn't be and so I judge no one else for feeling the same way.
Also, I think what is needed (and this is of course just my 2 cents). Is a list of proposals. ei Option 1, type of incorporation, location, pros/cons. Etc.
Once the research is done and these proposals are put forward, then the community at large can have a better understanding and better say regarding what we might like to see. I feel this is necessary because it is very likely that the larger SOR community, myself included, is not familiar enough with this process to actually make much sense out of, or propose options, if it is not laid out succinctly.
Right now it just seems like such a big issue and conversation does seem to have become rather circular at this point.
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09:02:45am
Meghan
Don't fear, we have many capable and able persons willing to take on these roles. I am relatively new here, but there are many members who have been here a long time and who have worked tirelessly to keep SOR up and running. I think finding bodies is the least of our concerns. The key is insulating those persons who do eventually take on those responsibilities from liability while they perform their duties - hence the need for a corporate or limited liability structure.
I continue to be impressed by the wealth of experience and knowledge available in our membership. I believe that if we decided to build a vehicle to take us to Mars, we could find the wherewithal, energy and resources from our members to do so!
Just keep the ideas flowing!
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Great, I'm glad to hear it. In that case, I reiterate that I think we need proposals for what we should do. I trust the wisdom of the VC in this area.
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Bobby, I hope we don't go to Mars. That will mean another area to collect stamps from.
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Hi Everyone;
I agree 1000% with mdroth!!! You want a sledge hammer to kill a flea!!!
You are all a bunch of DRAMA QUEENS!!
1) SOR has no liability except that which is imagined in your over-active imaginations!
2) Has anyone asked Roy Lingen, at www.buckacover.com, what he thinks about all this sillyness?
3) Has he ever expressed how burdensome, hosting this site is?
4) Roy is your only advertiser, and as such enjoys an exclusive ad space, which would be very coveted anyplace else on the web. Altho the traffic here is light compared to most sites.
5) If you change anything, don't ever change the code in this site!! It runs well on even old Windows 98, which most sites do not. It is the only site that runs smoothly, with quick load times, that I have used, except maybe for eCrater.com I'm almost unable to use eBay at all now, because of "outdated and unsupported browser". Also limit your use of Javascript if possible. Some sites I use load extremely slow unless I turn off Javascript. You don't need fancy whistles and bells just clean fast loading code.
6) Ask Roy if he wants to be compensated for his web space above and beyond free ad space, and how much he wants. Maybe he would like a better or larger ad, at the page bottom showing thumbs of some of his covers.
7) If you spend any money, it should be for promoting our website. Lets order T-shirts, to promote this space and sell them to SOR users for a small profit. We can wear them to large events, (like stamp shows and exhibitions) to promote our site.
8) Use the profit from the T-shirt sales, to have a booth, or some other promotional idea, at some of the stamp shows and exhibitions. If we had a booth, we could have some laptops, with our approval books on local hard drive, without need to log onto internet.
9) If we can't afford a booth, then members could bring a laptop to show to others, and hand out info about joining our club. We might even get sales of approvals or auction material right there at a show. Attendees could use their smart phones to buy right at the exhibition. Everyone who goes to local clubs or auctions could do the same by bringing their laptops to show to others.
10) This will increase our traffic and help Roy get more click-thrus, to his site. Ask him what he thinks about doing something to help him a bit more, as a way of saying thanks for hosting us.
11) There are literally dozens to places on the web that we could promote SOR without spending a dime, if put our heads together. All this effort to think about incorporation, should be better spent on something useful like promoting SOR and buckacover.com
After I've had a chance to sleep on this and smoke it over, I'll come back and see if I can think of another clever rant to spring on you all.
Just a few thoughts.
Happy collecting
Ken Tall Pines
Moderator's note: A comment added by Ken following his post, totally unrelated to the body of the post above, violated a Rule of the DB and was deleted. Ken's comments were not censored in any way. Bobby Barnhart, Moderator
(Modified by Moderator on 2014-06-13 15:58:06)
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God forbid someone should go around acting like a drama queen.
Antonio
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Oh good! I've always wanted an Oscar! 
boB
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WHAT??
Did I miss something?
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In Norway you can form a "volunteer organization" of different types. This is a much simpler way of being organized than a corporation, with fewer requirements for paperwork. I'm not familiar with the US types of registrations, but I'd imagine this type of organization would fit Stamporama better than a corporation style.
I guess the difference around here (in Norway) would be that a corporation is for making money, while a volunteer organization is not.
edit: With making money I'm thinking of commercial business where profit is the goal - not to cover costs of running the organization.
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Hello all,
Members of the VC (the volunteer committee) have been discussing the possibility of incorporating SOR. Several of us (Tim, Arno, Bobby, and me) have been discussing it for a long time.
There have been several reasons for considering incorporation, and those that have been constant include protecting officers, protecting intellectual and cyber property (our auction and other web code, the domain), and providing a legal mechanism for collecting and recording money. It will also allow us to take over the domain and server that Roy Lingen has essentially been footing for us for years now (Roy is fully on board with this). Other possibilities that pop up include improving our ability to harness funds to permit us to do bigger work. What that work might be, whether philanthropic, outreach, bibliographic, or something else, isn't clear; in fact, we may stay essentially the same even if we incorporate. There are no plans beyond an interest in incorporating. Basically, we want to move SOR on to the point where it is self funded entity that can stand on it's own two feet and is not dependent on the largess of just one person. Roy has been fantastic the way he has supported SOR financially ever since SOR became computerized, which is about 12 years now, but it is time for us to grow up.
I think we'd be communicating with you even without the lessons we learned from Bidstart's collapse, but that fiasco makes us all the more sensitive to both ensuring there's good communication on our end and that you all have an opportunity to both ask questions and have input into what we do.
One result of incorporation will be the necessity of paying the initial and annual fees required. Fees range from about $150 to $600, depending on the corporate status we implement; subsequent annual fees will be considerably less, but IF we move forward, there will be fees that SOR must pay. We have also been talking about the means to generate the revenue to pay these fees.
We would like to open the idea up to a discussion. And I'd like to break it into two parts. One is a focus on the merits of incorporation; we'd like to hear your thoughts. the other, which i'll move to another thread is any thoughts of money. We're really not talking too much about the money aspect right (no, we're not ignoring it, trust me), but we think it subservient to the idea of incorporation. If incorporation is not in our future, then money is moot. If it is a good idea, then we'll work out mechanism(s). We are in agreement though that we don't want to introduce a membership fee, we would like SOR to be free to join, so we will be looking at other options.
So, let this thread focus on the merits of incorporation: good, bad, indifferent. What it might mean to you. This is also a good time to see if anyone is interested in helping us with the transition; writing bylaws, looking at form 990 and other tax filings, and other really sexy stuff. If you feel more comfortable, you can write me back channel for volunteering opportunities.
David Teisler, President and Auctioneer, SOR
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10 Jun 2014
02:51:37pm
re: Keeping you up to speed on some discussions in the VC about SOR
This is definitely a good thing to consider. In this internet age, we need to protect ourselves as much as possible and right now, without anything (yes, we are a family club but that means nothing in the wider world of the web), we leave ourselves with vulnerability.
I fully support this idea. I also agree that it's time we stand together rather than on Roy's shoulders (who I can't thank enough for his generosity over the years for our website).
I agree that SOR should remain a free club. In regards to finance issues of incorporation, I think we can come up with some good ideas, when that time presents itself.
Kelly
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re: Keeping you up to speed on some discussions in the VC about SOR
Believe it or not I have been wondering about this as well, just on my lonesome. Now I will think about it in more earnest. It would be nice to be self-sufficient.
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re: Keeping you up to speed on some discussions in the VC about SOR
Incorporation is a good idea, to help protect SOR. It also will protect the officers and members, because if a legal problem ever develops in the future, it is the corporation that is liable and the members and usually the officers not.
I think with the educational value presented by SOR, it might be possible to pursue non-profit corporation status.
Funding of the fees associated with incorporation and running the website can be collected in many ways, including annual dues, donations from the membership, fees collected through member sales (store fees, end of sale commissions).
I would not be in favor of annual dues as I think it would chase many members away. Donations will work if the funding can be quantified on a per member-basis so everyone will know what their "fair share" is and of course a member could always donate more or less depending on their financial situation. Charging small fees to sellers will generate a constant revenue stream. Adding the ability for sellers to run stores will bring in monthly revenue that can be used to increase the education aspect of SOR.
Of course incorporation will bring in a required level of bureaucracy. There will be the need for a charter, by-laws, and officers. SOR could probably use the APS charter and by-laws as a guide, develop the same to fit SOR needs and functions and present it to the membership for debate and a vote. It probably would be a good idea to present a proposed charter and by-laws section by section to get input as a work in progress then present the entire when completed. Would make for easier passage.
I think it is a good step forward, but there probably will be resistance from those who do not want change as they continue to access SOR with their Commodore C-64 computers.
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10 Jun 2014
04:01:27pm
re: Keeping you up to speed on some discussions in the VC about SOR
Incorporation is an excellent idea if for no other reason than to protect the officers and members from financial liability. I am sure we are all aware how easy it is to sue anyone for anything these days, and the corporate shield against personal liability can prevent most of such actions from succeeding.
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re: Keeping you up to speed on some discussions in the VC about SOR
Good point. Since SOR is an affiliate (correct term?) of the APS, might have to check with the APS to see if there are any restrictions.
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10 Jun 2014
04:04:41pm
re: Keeping you up to speed on some discussions in the VC about SOR
I do not know how it works in Canada, but if we decide to file for incorporation in the USA, we must also decide which state in which to file. Keep in in mind that wherever we file, we must have a registered agent in that state or province.
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re: Keeping you up to speed on some discussions in the VC about SOR
My stamp club, the BC Philatelic Society, long ago considered and dropped the idea of becoming a registered charity. The sticking point was the necessary bureaucracy, which included the requirement of a formal annual audit. No member was willing to commit to the responsibility of overseeing the club as more than an informal association, especially the then-treasurer and now the current treasurer. Money wasn't the issue, however. The problem was the PITA factor.
I know nothing at all about the requirements of becoming a corporation, either in Canada or in the U.S., but I think it goes without saying that a much more formal executive structure would be required, not to mention arrangements for handling money, regardless of how funds might be raised. And, perhaps the most important question of all, do we actually have members who would be willing to take on these responsibilities, and other members who would eventually volunteer to replace them?
Obtaining a domain name and moving to a different server would seem to be relatively simple compared to incorporation. I would think that donations would easily handle the costs of that project, which I'm sure Roy Lingen would appreciate. He has done yeoman's service for us, and deserves a break.
Bob
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re: Keeping you up to speed on some discussions in the VC about SOR
Is there a way with the auctions that the sellers could voluntarily designate certain auctions for club donation? We do this with a club I am in and I am often surprised what it generates.
We could also have a sponsorship level for members. If they choose to be a sponsor they could donate funds and in return get a 'sponsor' label under their name. Another stamp board does this and they reward the sponsors with some special privileges.
I think the key is keeping it free, but we should give people that feel strongly about supporting this an avenue to do so.
I don't know how much more work either of these ideas will create for you guys. I am amazed at the amount of work this must take to keep going from people that have busy lives and still find the time to put into this.
All this being said there are certainly some lawyers that are members that can speak to the incorporation side of things. I have incorporated a few times but it was always a for profit business doing it's business in one state. I was also involved with developing a non-profit but I did not understand everything that went on. That's what the lawyers were for.
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10 Jun 2014
05:11:36pm
re: Keeping you up to speed on some discussions in the VC about SOR
Pat,
A lawyer can only practice in a jurisdiction where he/she is licensed. So before we can solicit free help, we must decide in which state (if the USA) or province (if Canada) we wish to incorporate in. Then we can see if there are any member/lawyers who reside therein.
Bobby (a lawyer licensed in Maine)
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06:08:17pm
re: Keeping you up to speed on some discussions in the VC about SOR
I (and I suspect the members you have in 84 countries outside North America) are going to find it very difficult to join in this discussion because I have no idea what YOU mean by Incorporation.
Under English law it can mean anything from Unlimited Private Company (not to be touched with a 60 foot bargepole), through Public Limited Company (a snip at £50000 minimum capital) to Community Interest Company (which is quite distinct from having Charitable Status - which in turn would NOT be considered to constitute Incorporation.
I obviously can't afford to pay any of our lawyer members to explain it to me! But a brief summary of what you are actually contemplating would help us feel a little more involved.
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10 Jun 2014
06:46:32pm
re: Keeping you up to speed on some discussions in the VC about SOR
bamra,
Rather than reinvent the wheel, CLICK HERE to read a Wiki article that explains what an American corporation is and how it differs from the meaning applied in Britain. The most important aspect of incorporating (at least in my mind) is limitation of liability (see the section titled "Limited Liability" about 1/3 down).
Bobby
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re: Keeping you up to speed on some discussions in the VC about SOR
Just to get a very very broad overview of the "legal" steps (ignoring the by-laws, officers, unemployment taxes...) for the US:
1. Obtain EIN from IRS. You must have entity name, address, and agent ready. This is free.
2. Incorporate in a state. This should cost less than $100, depending on the state.
After that, if you want to seek a determination letter as a non-profit corporation with the IRS, you will need to submit all the supporting paperwork and filing fees. This will cost ~$500 if you do it yourself. My guess is that the fees have gone up in the past 10 years, so this amount is likely subject to adjustment. The process typically takes 6-9 months for simple/small corporations.
As an NPO, as long as the NPO revenue does not exceed $25K per year (averaged over 3 years), you will NOT need to file annual paperwork with the IRS.
However, be forewarned that because this site does auctions, it will take some work to convince the IRS you are truly non-profit. Expect 1-2 extra iterations in the approval process. In addition, you can expect the IRS to ask what steps you are taking to assure the IRS that SoR is not a business extension of the original owner, and what degree of control the original owner will have over the control and operation of the site.
Seeking NPO status is a lot of initial paperwork, but as long as your revenue stays low, it will save you a LOT of other Federal/State paperwork in the long run.
This post is not intended to oppose the idea in any way. Just wanted you to be ready to deal with certain things so you don't get taken by surprise.
k
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10 Jun 2014
10:30:21pm
re: Keeping you up to speed on some discussions in the VC about SOR
Delaware is the state used by most corporations because they usually side with the corporation.
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11 Jun 2014
07:07:02am
re: Keeping you up to speed on some discussions in the VC about SOR
You bring up a lot of interesting points, Michael. My brain is too nonfunctioning at the moment to address them all (too early and coffee not ready yet), but I'll just hit some highlights.
Roy did not approach the VC with this idea, it was put forth by concerned members who foresee that there may come a time when it will be necessary for Stamporama to own and support its own website. This cannot happen unless Stamporama is an entity capable of ownership. Of all the entities available (simple partnership, a DBA company, LLP, LLC, corporation, etc.), a (social club) not for profit corporation has been put forth as the best alternative. There are costs, fees, and reporting requirements involved with all the various entities, but the structure and benefits of a "social club non profit" (see IRC §501(c)(7)) fits what we perceive to be our future needs well.
This is just the beginning of a long process and nothing is written in stone. Your input is exactly why this thread has been started - to explore all possibilities and weigh all alternatives. With anything we eventually decide upon, there will be certain criteria which will be constant such as site of formation, registered agent, board of directors, officers, etc.
Oh, and one very important thing - SOR is not my client, and I am here merely as a member. (I have to go get coffee...)
-Bobby
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re: Keeping you up to speed on some discussions in the VC about SOR
thanks for all your thoughts and ideas. keep them coming.
Incidentally, Michael from Turkey, your commentary matches our thought process pretty closely, except yours only took a few moments and followed a rather linear process.
Unless something is utterly erroneous, I am not planning to comment until you've exhausted yourselves
and don't underestimate the attractiveness of impeachment Michael. I might just take a slice of impeach pie with I scream (much darker than I intended... chocolate i scream?)
David
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11 Jun 2014
09:28:18am
re: Keeping you up to speed on some discussions in the VC about SOR
Ahhhh, coffeeeeeeee! I can think now!
Michael, you addressed something else which is directly on point with our discussions: ownership of the website. Your idea with respect to an individual owning the website and transferring title whenever he/she tires of it or is unable to continue, is basically what we have now. Roy has graciously and unselfishly carried this burden, and, although he has made no overtures toward relinquishment of such, if and when he does, we will need to have a mechanism in place whereby ownership can be transferred.
There also might come a time when Tim "the Wizard" Auld is unable to keep us up and functioning, at which time we may need to expend funds to accomplish what Tim and Roy have done voluntarily in the past.
I am not privy to the discussions had by the VC, but I would imagine that such discussions center around an alternative to having the fiscal and physical burden of ownership on the back of one individual. Also, if SOR ever does need to raise money, the owner of the website will probably be liable to the taxing authority of whichever jurisdiction wherein he/she resides. Personally, I think this is a most unfair position to place a member.
Which is why we are having this discussion...
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re: Keeping you up to speed on some discussions in the VC about SOR
David's thoughts are correct and to the point. Now I'd like to hear Roy's say on this.
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11 Jun 2014
12:33:18pm
re: Keeping you up to speed on some discussions in the VC about SOR
Bobby - your point on the issue of the website has been a concern of mine for quite some time.
For example, I believe it was last year and it was - thank God - nothing that kept Tim there - but he was in the hospital. Had it God forbid, been an extended stay and we had a programming problem with the website, everything is resting on Tim's shoulders. I know he would like to find people to share that weight with, at least as back-up individuals.
Likewise the same with Roy, should something God forbid happen that Roy is unable to provide the funding behind our website domain that he so graciously has given us all these years, SOR could in effect end up folding.
I don't know if people realise how much of the operation of SOR rests solely on the shoulders of these two men.
For this reason, I support whatever move is necessary for us to be able to be independent. Now does this mean incorporation or some other option? I do not know.
What I do know is that a lot of issues have been over can SOR receive funds from members, how can that happen, who would bear responsibility, etc. (Which is part of the other thread re: monies).
SOR is totally based on volunteers. From the top on down - the VC, moderators, committees, right down through to all our members. We all happily volunteer our services (whether it is via committees, web-design, philatelic research on the discussion board, etc.)
I'm open to all ideas.
Kelly
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re: Keeping you up to speed on some discussions in the VC about SOR
This is an excellent discussion. I think at this stage it might help to give a little background on the proposal to incorporate. I think Kelly has summed up a lot of my thoughts and concerns very well. We are completely dependent on Roy for the provision of the server. Roy has been fantastic with the way he has supported Stamporama all these years, but heaven forbid, what would we do if something happens and Roy is no longer able to provide the server for us. But more importantly in my mind, Roy has paid the cost for Stamporama for the last 10+ years, I don't think that it reasonable for us to expect Roy to continue to pay the cost for ever to keep Stamporama going.
So, if we are going to grow up as an organization and pay our own bills we need to collect and handle money. If we are going to collect money from our members to meet out obligations, we are dealing with other peoples money and as such we should deal with the money formally and openly. We will need to have a Treasurer to handle the money and we will need to have a bank account. Here in the US, in order to have a bank account for an organization you have to have a Federal EIN tax number. In getting a Federal EIN tax number you need to be incorporated in some way.
I have been looking into this for quite a while and have been discussing it with the VC and with Bobby, who while is not part of the VC, has been very helpful with his legal background. I have also talked the proposal through with Roy who is very much on board with the proposal. I think he feels a bit like a proud Dad whose child is finally ready to start growing up.
We would want to incorporate in a state where one of the officers live in. When you incorporate you have to have a registered agent living in that state. You can pay an organization to be that registered agent for you, but why pay someone if one of our officers can play the role.
I have been looking into incorporating in Minnesota, because that is where I live and I have been through the incorporation process three times here in Minnesota. To register as a non-profit corporation here in Minnesota costs $90 and can be done online. To apply for the Federal EIN number can be done online and there is no cost involved. The best type of Federal Non-profit status for us to apply for is called a 501(c)(7) which is specifically setup for Social Clubs just like Stamporama and costs around $500 to apply for. A 501(c)(7) organization doesn't have to pay company or income tax to the Federal or State governments, but it can't provide tax deduction receipts to people who make donations to it. So any money that you give to Stamporama would not be a tax deduction for you. I think that this is fair and reasonable because around half of our members do not live in the US anyway, so wouldn't be able to claim a tax deduction no matter what filing status we have with the US government.
The funds that we would be looking to bring in to pay our bills are not considerable, I'll summarize them below:
1. The server costs a little under $100 per month and so for our purposes let's use that amount.
2. The domain costs $15 to renew each year
3. If we need specialist operating system support from the server hosting company it costs $75 each time you call. For our purposes lets assume 2 calls each year.
That comes to $1365. Let's assume that there are some misc expenses that are not immediately coming to mind and role it up to $1500 each year, with initial setup fees of around $600.
I hope this gives you all some perspective on where the proposal came from and what would be involved financially.
Regards ... Tim.
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re: Keeping you up to speed on some discussions in the VC about SOR
It is not required to incorporate in a state where there an officer lives. The reason is that to incorporate will require a charter and by-laws. Those documents to be approved by the SOR membership, will also have to include provisions for election/appointment of officers. Incorporate in Minnesota, for example, but understand that there may not always be an officer in Minnesota.
I would not be in favor of an organization with permanent officers where dues are required to be paid. I have belonged to one such group for almost 30 years, and the membership has no voice in the direction that the organization goes or how it is run. This causes plenty of friction and dissent at times. The result is that the permanent officers justify themselves to the membership, and those not liking it drop off the rolls as the group gets smaller and the financial burden on those who remain gets higher.
At this point, SOR is a different, because there are no fees assessed. People don't have a financial investment in SOR, and can come and go as they please. That attitude will change for many when/if membership requires payment of fees.
SOR will need a new mission statement, and will need to assess what it is that SOR does and will do in the long term. It will also have to seek out what it is that the membership expects from SOR, how to meet those needs and expectations, and determine how many will remain on the site if SOR becomes a pay for membership group. If a large number the 2000 or so membership is expected to leave the site if fees are charged, then SOR needs to decide if that is acceptable, or if it is contrary to SOR's mission and goals. The Texas Philatelic Association is considered to be one of the better local organizations in the hobby. Still, it has less than 500 members.
These are just some things to consider before the final decision of do it or not is made.
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11 Jun 2014
06:08:07pm
re: Keeping you up to speed on some discussions in the VC about SOR
To my knowledge, no state requires the physical presence of an officer or board member, or even the original incorporator. What is required is a resident, registered agent. This can even be a business entity, but in our case an individual would be best.
There are no requirements for permanency of officers or board members. In fact, while the By Laws will name an initial slate of officers and a board of directors, it will also set forth the means by which they can be changed, fired, impeached (there is that word again David), etc.
Once incorporated, most states have the option of filing a simple annual report online. As a nonprofit, the only fees would be minimal filing fees.
I do not believe anyone wants a dues paying membership. There are many ways to raise money for an organization such as ours with limited needs, but that can be explored later (but I do not believe anyone has suggested any sort of fees).
I also believe that everyone would like to see Stamporama continue to be run by volunteers who do so for the love of the hobby (and whatever personal power trips they might be on).
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re: Keeping you up to speed on some discussions in the VC about SOR
"To my knowledge, no state requires the physical presence of an officer or board member, or even the original incorporator. What is required is a resident, registered agent. This can even be a business entity, but in our case an individual would be best.
There are no requirements for permanency of officers or board members. In fact, while the By Laws will name an initial slate of officers and a board of directors, it will also set forth the means by which they can be changed, fired, impeached (there is that word again David), etc.
Once incorporated, most states have the option of filing a simple annual report online. As a nonprofit, the only fees would be minimal filing fees."
To the best of my knowledge and experience, the above is correct. Also, technically you do not have to be incorporated to obtain an EIN, but you do need one to open up a bank account (there is that option on the EIN application).
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re: Keeping you up to speed on some discussions in the VC about SOR
Kim,
I'll contact you thru the SOR message system for more information on this.
Regards ... Tim
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re: Keeping you up to speed on some discussions in the VC about SOR
Got the PM and replied (twice). Read the 2nd shorter PM first.
Best wishes,
k
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re: Keeping you up to speed on some discussions in the VC about SOR
Kim, I have a business that is registered in Texas. I did not need an EIN to open my business bank accounts. However, I did have to obtain an EIN from IRS, because I use contractors for labor. It was easy to get the EIN. I did it online at the IRS web site.
I'm not sure if there is a difference between SOR and a business.
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re: Keeping you up to speed on some discussions in the VC about SOR
Good important point. That is correct, you do not specifically need an EIN. But were you able to open an individual/business account without any sort of TIN? You can use your own SSN or something that can serve as a TIN. That is sometimes done by individuals running private proprietorships. The options for TIN include SSN, ITIN, EIN, or Passport number.
However, it appeared that the context of the discussion was limited individual liability via incorporation. So that pretty much only leaves EIN as an option.
It used to be that the S&L, state-chartered banks, credit unions... in Texas would allow you to open up small accounts for charity/clubs without any sort of TIN using some special category, but I was not aware of any that still allowed you to open up those types of new accounts. I'm not in banking, and I don't remember what that category was called; and I don't recall any of the large banking institutions ever allowing that. The last time I helped a charity open up an account without a TIN was at a credit union about 15 years ago. They were willing to open up the account without a TIN, but they needed a formal supporting organization letter, and they did stipulate that they eventually would need some sort of TIN. So I advised them to go ahead and get the EIN.
In a nutshell, the TIN you use depends on what you are trying to do.
k
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re: Keeping you up to speed on some discussions in the VC about SOR
Without going into the legalese, if the SOR club is to become fully independent (and I am ALL for it), in whatever form, it will need to set up a limited liability entity, ie as a corporation of some recognized form, with officers, checkbooks etc.. and present to the membership a start up budget, and then an annual operational budget.
It is definitely mature on our part to thank Roy for his most generous support, and to ease any further burden on him by becoming self contained.
We may want to poll the membership on it, and on related issues (fees, budgets etc..) but it is not mandatory to do it yet as the Board and the VCs can be entrusted to present their recommendations. Voting (if any) could come later, from the membership at large.
From a set up stand point, start up cost are likely to be different from annual operational costs. I have touched briefly on the money issue under the corresponding Money Post heading...but this should come later, I think.
If SOR (or a trusted person acting on behalf of SOR) were to set up a (SOR) bank account, one could easily gauge the level of support, by asking for start up funding donations to our membership at large (Paypal would open it to our worldwide membership quite easily).
The start up costs and the projected ongoing budget plan would then determine our approach for on-going funding.
Just some thoughts, in my jet lagging state (yes I am back), as I know I have not digested all that has been written here before.
rrr...
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12 Jun 2014
09:33:52pm
re: Keeping you up to speed on some discussions in the VC about SOR
Right now, if I wanted to do so, I could form a personal corporation, register the name Stamporama.xyz, start my own website titled "Stamporama, For People Who Love to Talk About Stamps," and there is not a thing anyone here (except maybe Roy, but at great expense to himself) could do about it since "Stamporama" as a business or legal entity does not exist.
What we need is your input on the form "Stamporama" should take to go to the next level. For now, put aside thoughts of finance, raising money, voting, etc. and look for the best structure. Admittedly, most of our effort to date has been along the lines of a non profit corporation like the American Philatelic Society, but maybe you can see better things elsewhere.
If we do eventually settle on a non profit corporation, and decide to headquarter in the USA, we will then need to decide whether to form a 501c3 (like the APS) or a 501c7 (like many local stamp clubs). Google your ideas and give us some input.
David has already said he will not try to influence anyone until the membership has sorted through things. I will try to do the same (but, by now you know how difficult it is for me to keep my hands off things).
I have no official standing here. I am just like you, an interested and concerned member.
-Bobby
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re: Keeping you up to speed on some discussions in the VC about SOR
I'm glad that Bobby is bringing us back to the bigger idea: you can talk details, of course, but I'm hoping you explore what we could be IF we made changes; and, yes, you may certainly feel free to share your excitement at or dread of change.
David
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re: Keeping you up to speed on some discussions in the VC about SOR
There has been much discussion on the type of incorporation that would or could occur as well as the potential states to incorporate in. My question is, are there people willing to take on the roles prescribed? We seem to be tip toeing around this point throughout the thread with all the "someone" "a trusted person" "a SOR representative" references. All this conversation is moot if we have no one comfortable with taking on those responsibilities.
I certainly wouldn't be and so I judge no one else for feeling the same way.
Also, I think what is needed (and this is of course just my 2 cents). Is a list of proposals. ei Option 1, type of incorporation, location, pros/cons. Etc.
Once the research is done and these proposals are put forward, then the community at large can have a better understanding and better say regarding what we might like to see. I feel this is necessary because it is very likely that the larger SOR community, myself included, is not familiar enough with this process to actually make much sense out of, or propose options, if it is not laid out succinctly.
Right now it just seems like such a big issue and conversation does seem to have become rather circular at this point.
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
13 Jun 2014
09:02:45am
re: Keeping you up to speed on some discussions in the VC about SOR
Meghan
Don't fear, we have many capable and able persons willing to take on these roles. I am relatively new here, but there are many members who have been here a long time and who have worked tirelessly to keep SOR up and running. I think finding bodies is the least of our concerns. The key is insulating those persons who do eventually take on those responsibilities from liability while they perform their duties - hence the need for a corporate or limited liability structure.
I continue to be impressed by the wealth of experience and knowledge available in our membership. I believe that if we decided to build a vehicle to take us to Mars, we could find the wherewithal, energy and resources from our members to do so!
Just keep the ideas flowing!
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re: Keeping you up to speed on some discussions in the VC about SOR
Great, I'm glad to hear it. In that case, I reiterate that I think we need proposals for what we should do. I trust the wisdom of the VC in this area.
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re: Keeping you up to speed on some discussions in the VC about SOR
Bobby, I hope we don't go to Mars. That will mean another area to collect stamps from.
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re: Keeping you up to speed on some discussions in the VC about SOR
Hi Everyone;
I agree 1000% with mdroth!!! You want a sledge hammer to kill a flea!!!
You are all a bunch of DRAMA QUEENS!!
1) SOR has no liability except that which is imagined in your over-active imaginations!
2) Has anyone asked Roy Lingen, at www.buckacover.com, what he thinks about all this sillyness?
3) Has he ever expressed how burdensome, hosting this site is?
4) Roy is your only advertiser, and as such enjoys an exclusive ad space, which would be very coveted anyplace else on the web. Altho the traffic here is light compared to most sites.
5) If you change anything, don't ever change the code in this site!! It runs well on even old Windows 98, which most sites do not. It is the only site that runs smoothly, with quick load times, that I have used, except maybe for eCrater.com I'm almost unable to use eBay at all now, because of "outdated and unsupported browser". Also limit your use of Javascript if possible. Some sites I use load extremely slow unless I turn off Javascript. You don't need fancy whistles and bells just clean fast loading code.
6) Ask Roy if he wants to be compensated for his web space above and beyond free ad space, and how much he wants. Maybe he would like a better or larger ad, at the page bottom showing thumbs of some of his covers.
7) If you spend any money, it should be for promoting our website. Lets order T-shirts, to promote this space and sell them to SOR users for a small profit. We can wear them to large events, (like stamp shows and exhibitions) to promote our site.
8) Use the profit from the T-shirt sales, to have a booth, or some other promotional idea, at some of the stamp shows and exhibitions. If we had a booth, we could have some laptops, with our approval books on local hard drive, without need to log onto internet.
9) If we can't afford a booth, then members could bring a laptop to show to others, and hand out info about joining our club. We might even get sales of approvals or auction material right there at a show. Attendees could use their smart phones to buy right at the exhibition. Everyone who goes to local clubs or auctions could do the same by bringing their laptops to show to others.
10) This will increase our traffic and help Roy get more click-thrus, to his site. Ask him what he thinks about doing something to help him a bit more, as a way of saying thanks for hosting us.
11) There are literally dozens to places on the web that we could promote SOR without spending a dime, if put our heads together. All this effort to think about incorporation, should be better spent on something useful like promoting SOR and buckacover.com
After I've had a chance to sleep on this and smoke it over, I'll come back and see if I can think of another clever rant to spring on you all.
Just a few thoughts.
Happy collecting
Ken Tall Pines
Moderator's note: A comment added by Ken following his post, totally unrelated to the body of the post above, violated a Rule of the DB and was deleted. Ken's comments were not censored in any way. Bobby Barnhart, Moderator
(Modified by Moderator on 2014-06-13 15:58:06)
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re: Keeping you up to speed on some discussions in the VC about SOR
God forbid someone should go around acting like a drama queen.
Antonio
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re: Keeping you up to speed on some discussions in the VC about SOR
Oh good! I've always wanted an Oscar!
boB
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re: Keeping you up to speed on some discussions in the VC about SOR
WHAT??
Did I miss something?
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re: Keeping you up to speed on some discussions in the VC about SOR
In Norway you can form a "volunteer organization" of different types. This is a much simpler way of being organized than a corporation, with fewer requirements for paperwork. I'm not familiar with the US types of registrations, but I'd imagine this type of organization would fit Stamporama better than a corporation style.
I guess the difference around here (in Norway) would be that a corporation is for making money, while a volunteer organization is not.
edit: With making money I'm thinking of commercial business where profit is the goal - not to cover costs of running the organization.
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