Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Nevertheless, I wonder about it from time to time as I examine my own varied motivations which began when I was 5 years old, a scant 55 years ago. My father purchased, from the local A&P, a bright orange bag crammed with stamps from the missions thus launching my lifelong interest in philately. In my mind's eye, I can vividly see little me, filling the bathroom sink with warm water, dropping stamps on paper in, spreading out the waxed paper...but I digress.
My current thought regards covers from old stamp dealers and collector/dealers of long ago. If I attempt to burrow down to the reason I find these covers appealing I encounter the first reason which seems superficial but not necessarily one that should be discarded: The covers are cool.
Next, after dealing with the first shocking lack of scholarly erudition, I think I enjoy the sense of a connection with long dead collectors who in their own way share an interest or passion with me on a metaphysical plane. From what I've read some of those dealers were real scoundrels, mixing in real and fake stamps with no regard for truth, justice or the American Way. Undoubtedly, their foreign counterparts bear the same guilt exchanging some foreign maxim for the US one.
Third I speculate that it will be pleasing to me if I share a few images of these covers, wondering whether or not I am a loner collector here on SOR, collecting (which is actually a much too formal verb) this category or if perhaps some of you find old stamp dealer covers of interest, too?
In no particular order:
Bruce
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I like the American Postal Machine flag machine cancel on the first cover. Few cities had these in place in the 19th century (Boston being the first I believe).
The St. Paul one is nice as well, with that pair of well-centered banknotes.
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I like 'em all! I like "mini" collections, but mainly the stories that go with them. I have several myself and often wonder if anyone but me finds it interesting and then when I share it at a club meeting or something it is always received well. The fun part is someone always sees something different much like you are showing a mini collection of oldtime dealers and Antonio is seeing Flag cancels and well centered 1 cent banknotes while I'm sure he still admires them for the reason you put them together.
Now after his comment I am going to check the dates on my flag cancels when I get home.
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I especially like the St. Paul cover for three reasons, 1.) St. Paul, 2.) It is an early 5 cent UPU rate for a foreign destination and 3.)it has 1 cent bank notes on it. I'm not sure why but I really like those on cover.
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Patrick, Antonio,
The St Paul is especially nice because of the UPU usage; that was the cover that stood out for me. Now imagine how far it travelled, first to NYC by rail, most likely, then by ship to England
David
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I like them all...thanks for posting them.
The thing that stands out to me at this moment is the addresses with just a name and city/state. I just mailed out stamp show dealer letters and one was returned as "undeliverable and not able to be forwarded". This for a man who has lived in this teeny town for years and years and only moved TWO blocks away. Back in the 1800s, this would have been delivered.
Anyway, thanks for the pics...I've never seen any like them!
Sally
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David and Pat,
I have noticed that some mail bound for the Eastern US or Europe from Minnesota got directed through the port of Duluth. I suspect though that mail from Saint Paul would have gone by rail to Chicago to the eastern seaboard.
It leaves me with the question, where was the cutoff point where mail within "x" distance from Duluth got shipped through the St. Lawrence Seaway and which got sent by rail. Enquiring minds wish to know. 
Antonio
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Sally,
Back in the 1800's most of the mail would have to be picked up at the post office. There was not a lot of delivery prior to the rural free delivery system.
Pat
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Bruce,
Can we see the back of the St. Paul cover?
Pat
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For the record, Rural Free Delivery experimentation began in 1890, and was passed as law in 1893. Of course it took over 20 years before it was deployed nationwide.
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I'm not trying to hijack your thread but Smauggie's comment on the flag cancels got me thinking. Antonio, you are right. The vast majority of my flag cancels are early 20th century.
I do have a couple hundred 19th century. They represent 29 cities, 37 if you count the different New York stations. The oldest I have is Boston. It is 12/14/1894. I did a quick survey of the states I have represented in 19th century flag cancels. They are as follows; New York 9(or 17 with stations counted separate), Mass 6, Michigan, Minnesota, NH, PA, all have 2 each and RI,CN,GA,Iowa,IL & Washington DC all have 1 each.
By far the most common that I have is Boston and they used many different varieties throughout the years and seem to have the longest run way up until the 30's.
I know my list is far from complete and I bet someone has a lot more information. I know I have a book on these someplace. I may start a new thread when I find the book and do a bit more research.
Pat
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Actually an esoteric sub-collection of my collection of stamp dealer or stamp dealer/collector covers is such covers that bear flag cancels. I will include a few more of those plus the back of the St. Paul Minnesota cover (only foreign backstamps though) posted earlier, not to be confused with a younger Minnesota cover I am posting now with this flag cancel group. The newer one shows that the LaSeur flag cancel from 1926 missed its intended mark but the post office folks in Des Moines finished the job with a larger CDS at their end before delivery.
I also like hunting down flag cancels on any cover. By the way, I enjoy free ranging commentary or tangents. Flag cancels are for the most part fairly easy to acquire although some are quite a bit less common than others; some are rare. Frederick Langford, author of the Flag Cancel Encyclopedia, updated in 2008, states that the last flag cancels were from New York in 1941. He does mention that there is still room in this field for new discoveries.
Boston, as was surmised earlier, was the first city to use flag cancels.
The last cover bears a flag cancel from Dionne Kentucky, violet at that, and is from 1944, a recent find and apparently unknown to Langford by 2008. Does anyone know if the P M M indicated Post Master Mail? I like the combination of the WWII patriotic with the patriotic nature of the flag cancel. While this is not from a stamp dealer, I think it's a pretty cool cover for a number of reasons.
Bruce
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The Le Seuer flag cancel is interesting as the cancel did not lay properly on the envelope, killing the stamp. The Des Moines post office wanted to make sure the stamp wasn't reused so they cancelled it with the received cancel. I can only assume there was some sort of feed error when they cancelled the stamps, and 2 envelopes overlapped. The one underneath this one probably didn't get cancelled at all.
I have never before seen a purple flag cancel. Also the date is late for their use, being 1944. This is most likely a re-purposed flag cancel from a larger town that was sold to make room for machine cancellers with the capacity for more volume. This is usually the case for flag cancels after about 1925. These can end up being quite scarce. The reason the dial (part containing town, state and date) looks weird is because they probably had to cram in makeshift date slugs that were not meant for use with this machine cancel. This, of course, is just a reflection of my observations.
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02:29:31pm
The possibility of collectors all over the world arriving at common ground regarding the motivation for their collecting passions might be akin to the Medieval question: How many angels can dance upon the head of a pin?
Nevertheless, I wonder about it from time to time as I examine my own varied motivations which began when I was 5 years old, a scant 55 years ago. My father purchased, from the local A&P, a bright orange bag crammed with stamps from the missions thus launching my lifelong interest in philately. In my mind's eye, I can vividly see little me, filling the bathroom sink with warm water, dropping stamps on paper in, spreading out the waxed paper...but I digress.
My current thought regards covers from old stamp dealers and collector/dealers of long ago. If I attempt to burrow down to the reason I find these covers appealing I encounter the first reason which seems superficial but not necessarily one that should be discarded: The covers are cool.
Next, after dealing with the first shocking lack of scholarly erudition, I think I enjoy the sense of a connection with long dead collectors who in their own way share an interest or passion with me on a metaphysical plane. From what I've read some of those dealers were real scoundrels, mixing in real and fake stamps with no regard for truth, justice or the American Way. Undoubtedly, their foreign counterparts bear the same guilt exchanging some foreign maxim for the US one.
Third I speculate that it will be pleasing to me if I share a few images of these covers, wondering whether or not I am a loner collector here on SOR, collecting (which is actually a much too formal verb) this category or if perhaps some of you find old stamp dealer covers of interest, too?
In no particular order:
Bruce
1 Member
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re: In The Vernacular Of The Beat Generation: COOL!
I like the American Postal Machine flag machine cancel on the first cover. Few cities had these in place in the 19th century (Boston being the first I believe).
The St. Paul one is nice as well, with that pair of well-centered banknotes.
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re: In The Vernacular Of The Beat Generation: COOL!
I like 'em all! I like "mini" collections, but mainly the stories that go with them. I have several myself and often wonder if anyone but me finds it interesting and then when I share it at a club meeting or something it is always received well. The fun part is someone always sees something different much like you are showing a mini collection of oldtime dealers and Antonio is seeing Flag cancels and well centered 1 cent banknotes while I'm sure he still admires them for the reason you put them together.
Now after his comment I am going to check the dates on my flag cancels when I get home.
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this post
re: In The Vernacular Of The Beat Generation: COOL!
I especially like the St. Paul cover for three reasons, 1.) St. Paul, 2.) It is an early 5 cent UPU rate for a foreign destination and 3.)it has 1 cent bank notes on it. I'm not sure why but I really like those on cover.
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re: In The Vernacular Of The Beat Generation: COOL!
Patrick, Antonio,
The St Paul is especially nice because of the UPU usage; that was the cover that stood out for me. Now imagine how far it travelled, first to NYC by rail, most likely, then by ship to England
David
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re: In The Vernacular Of The Beat Generation: COOL!
I like them all...thanks for posting them.
The thing that stands out to me at this moment is the addresses with just a name and city/state. I just mailed out stamp show dealer letters and one was returned as "undeliverable and not able to be forwarded". This for a man who has lived in this teeny town for years and years and only moved TWO blocks away. Back in the 1800s, this would have been delivered.
Anyway, thanks for the pics...I've never seen any like them!
Sally
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re: In The Vernacular Of The Beat Generation: COOL!
David and Pat,
I have noticed that some mail bound for the Eastern US or Europe from Minnesota got directed through the port of Duluth. I suspect though that mail from Saint Paul would have gone by rail to Chicago to the eastern seaboard.
It leaves me with the question, where was the cutoff point where mail within "x" distance from Duluth got shipped through the St. Lawrence Seaway and which got sent by rail. Enquiring minds wish to know.
Antonio
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re: In The Vernacular Of The Beat Generation: COOL!
Sally,
Back in the 1800's most of the mail would have to be picked up at the post office. There was not a lot of delivery prior to the rural free delivery system.
Pat
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re: In The Vernacular Of The Beat Generation: COOL!
Bruce,
Can we see the back of the St. Paul cover?
Pat
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this post
re: In The Vernacular Of The Beat Generation: COOL!
For the record, Rural Free Delivery experimentation began in 1890, and was passed as law in 1893. Of course it took over 20 years before it was deployed nationwide.
Login to Like
this post
re: In The Vernacular Of The Beat Generation: COOL!
I'm not trying to hijack your thread but Smauggie's comment on the flag cancels got me thinking. Antonio, you are right. The vast majority of my flag cancels are early 20th century.
I do have a couple hundred 19th century. They represent 29 cities, 37 if you count the different New York stations. The oldest I have is Boston. It is 12/14/1894. I did a quick survey of the states I have represented in 19th century flag cancels. They are as follows; New York 9(or 17 with stations counted separate), Mass 6, Michigan, Minnesota, NH, PA, all have 2 each and RI,CN,GA,Iowa,IL & Washington DC all have 1 each.
By far the most common that I have is Boston and they used many different varieties throughout the years and seem to have the longest run way up until the 30's.
I know my list is far from complete and I bet someone has a lot more information. I know I have a book on these someplace. I may start a new thread when I find the book and do a bit more research.
Pat
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12:27:15am
re: In The Vernacular Of The Beat Generation: COOL!
Actually an esoteric sub-collection of my collection of stamp dealer or stamp dealer/collector covers is such covers that bear flag cancels. I will include a few more of those plus the back of the St. Paul Minnesota cover (only foreign backstamps though) posted earlier, not to be confused with a younger Minnesota cover I am posting now with this flag cancel group. The newer one shows that the LaSeur flag cancel from 1926 missed its intended mark but the post office folks in Des Moines finished the job with a larger CDS at their end before delivery.
I also like hunting down flag cancels on any cover. By the way, I enjoy free ranging commentary or tangents. Flag cancels are for the most part fairly easy to acquire although some are quite a bit less common than others; some are rare. Frederick Langford, author of the Flag Cancel Encyclopedia, updated in 2008, states that the last flag cancels were from New York in 1941. He does mention that there is still room in this field for new discoveries.
Boston, as was surmised earlier, was the first city to use flag cancels.
The last cover bears a flag cancel from Dionne Kentucky, violet at that, and is from 1944, a recent find and apparently unknown to Langford by 2008. Does anyone know if the P M M indicated Post Master Mail? I like the combination of the WWII patriotic with the patriotic nature of the flag cancel. While this is not from a stamp dealer, I think it's a pretty cool cover for a number of reasons.
Bruce
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this post
re: In The Vernacular Of The Beat Generation: COOL!
The Le Seuer flag cancel is interesting as the cancel did not lay properly on the envelope, killing the stamp. The Des Moines post office wanted to make sure the stamp wasn't reused so they cancelled it with the received cancel. I can only assume there was some sort of feed error when they cancelled the stamps, and 2 envelopes overlapped. The one underneath this one probably didn't get cancelled at all.
I have never before seen a purple flag cancel. Also the date is late for their use, being 1944. This is most likely a re-purposed flag cancel from a larger town that was sold to make room for machine cancellers with the capacity for more volume. This is usually the case for flag cancels after about 1925. These can end up being quite scarce. The reason the dial (part containing town, state and date) looks weird is because they probably had to cram in makeshift date slugs that were not meant for use with this machine cancel. This, of course, is just a reflection of my observations.
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