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United States/Covers & Postmarks : Need some help identifying the Year of Cancel on this Faribault MN cover

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auldstampguy
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Just one more small cover .....
06 Apr 2014
04:47:57pm
Not being a US collector as such, I'm struggling to identify the year that this would have been cancelled. Can anyone assist me?

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khj
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06 Apr 2014
05:30:05pm
re: Need some help identifying the Year of Cancel on this Faribault MN cover

The cover looks "odd". The stamp/cancel does not seem the match the cover. Does the upper part of the "J" in "Jr" tie the stamp to the cover? If it does, then I'm off-base. Otherwise, it almost looks like a used stamp was put on the cover to replace a missing/removed stamp.

Of course, that doesn't answer your question, and I really don't know that much about covers. Just wondering...

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michael78651
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SOR Auctioneer
06 Apr 2014
07:51:52pm
re: Need some help identifying the Year of Cancel on this Faribault MN cover

A close-up of the corner with the stamp may be in order. I agree that it does look suspicious. The cancel on what is the true top of the stamp seems to end abruptly at the perfs.

Not sure if the "J" would necessarily be written on the stamp. It could have been written first and the stamp then placed over it.

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smauggie
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06 Apr 2014
08:23:02pm
re: Need some help identifying the Year of Cancel on this Faribault MN cover

I am not sure the cover is problematic, but getting a good identification of the stamp will at least give you a rough timeframe for when the letter was mailed. Sometimes determining the year is quite impossible.

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auldstampguy
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Just one more small cover .....
06 Apr 2014
09:59:18pm
re: Need some help identifying the Year of Cancel on this Faribault MN cover

Kim and Michael,
I think you are correct and the stamp has been put on after the event. Here is the top right hand corner.

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I think the solution here might be to look for a better cover from Faribault. Thinking

Regards ... Tim.

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michael78651
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06 Apr 2014
11:18:46pm
re: Need some help identifying the Year of Cancel on this Faribault MN cover

Yes, Tim. The markings at the top perfs of the stamp would have continued onto the envelope.

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khj
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06 Apr 2014
11:55:05pm
re: Need some help identifying the Year of Cancel on this Faribault MN cover

Quote:

"Not sure if the "J" would necessarily be written on the stamp. It could have been written first and the stamp then placed over it."


I agree. My point was that if the "J" was on the stamp, then it would be tied to cover and my initial suspicions would be lessened. Since it is not, it only supports my original suspicion that the stamp was put on afterwards as a replacement.

Also note that the cancel ink color on the stamp doesn't match the cover cancel.
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smauggie
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07 Apr 2014
09:54:03am
re: Need some help identifying the Year of Cancel on this Faribault MN cover

The stamp is Scott 184, issued in 1879 and prbably stopped being used in the mid to late 1880's.

With regard to what Michael and K are saying, I guess I am wondering why should someone go to all that trouble to put a stamp on the cover that even today has a catalog value on cover of about than $1?

Also, if the killer was placed lightly on the stamp then it would make sense that it would only mark the stamp as it would require pressure to apply the killer to the area around the stamp which was lower than the surface of the stamp?

Here is an image of a stamp that is just barely tied to the cover, and a little less pressure and it wouldn't have been.

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khj
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07 Apr 2014
10:54:43am
re: Need some help identifying the Year of Cancel on this Faribault MN cover

Nice cover, smauggie!

People repair stamps and covers all the time. I've met collectors who spent enormous amounts of time "repairing" (not just cleaning, but filling in thins, gluing tears, coloring in ink fades, extending missing perfs...) -- and we are talking about minimum catalog value stamps. They know they can just spend a few pennies to replace them, but chose to repair or restore instead. Hey, it's their collection and they can do as they please. But whoever eventually buys the collection/items is going to be in for a big surprise.

While it is true that an unevenly or lightly placed cancel may not tie the stamp to cover, notice how much darker the cancel on the stamp of the Rose & Wood cover is compared to the very light the stamp cancel on the Wabasha cover -- and yet stamp on the Wabasha cover is still clearly tied to cover.

On the Rose & Wood cover, if you look visually downwards from the "S.P" of the 3c Washington stamp, you can see what appears to be a patch of ink on the cover that might suggest "tied on cover". However, it is not clear whether that is part of that specific stamp cancel or something else.

It may be genuine -- you really have to physically examine it to be more certain. I've run into so many fakes and repairs/restorations, I guess I tend to be suspicious if I'm paying more than a penny for something.

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I still have more questions than answers
07 Apr 2014
12:30:37pm
re: Need some help identifying the Year of Cancel on this Faribault MN cover

Tim,
How many millimeters wide is the cancel. That may help me narrow it down.
Pat

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michael78651
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SOR Auctioneer
07 Apr 2014
07:25:26pm
re: Need some help identifying the Year of Cancel on this Faribault MN cover

I don't think the heaviness of the two cancels on the 3c Washington cover may matter. There are two different cancelling devices used. The one on the stamp is a cork cancel. Cork will hold the ink used from previous cancellation strikes, so I would expect that to be darker and heavier than the cancel from a metal or rubber date canceller.

Like you, Kim, I agree that it could still pan out, but I would expect that cork cancel to have gone beyond the perfs and onto the envelope.

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auldstampguy
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Just one more small cover .....
07 Apr 2014
11:23:45pm
re: Need some help identifying the Year of Cancel on this Faribault MN cover

Pat,
The Cancel is 27mm across.

Regards ... Tim.

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