Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
I also see a partially covered over purple stamp saying possible 8¢ Due.
Then there is a big purple voided handstamp on the meter tape itself.
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Antonio, what a fabulous envelope.
Third class requires a fee for returned mail, and must be so endorsed. That explains the 8c due (you are probably aware of all this, but there might be others who are not). I don't understand the use of the meter AND the stamp. the stamp looks applied in California, and the due meter in Minn. if it's sent third class, the California amount ought to be significantly less than the Minn amount, unless they didn't know what they were doing OR the stamp represented partial payment OR the contents were removed to make it a single ounce while the original was multiple ounces OR .....
whatever, it's fabulous cover
how do you always come up with these truly oddball pieces to die for, Antonio?
David
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i should also add that while the original mailing is sent third class, any return is sent first class. David
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Thank you David. I do not yet have a good resource for US rates when especially with the more unusual mail services, so this has been very informative for me.
I have developed an eye for the oddball I guess. Part of that comes from being influenced by other (admittedly awesome) oddballs here in the twin cities philatelic community. 
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Antonio,
do you have the two Beecher and Wawrukiewicz rate books? one is domestic and one is international US rates. For any collector of US covers, it is indispensable for understanding what is being paid and why. Neither are cheap; each is worth its weight in some precious commodity.
David
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Thanks for that information. I will keep an eye out for them.
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AbeBooks.com has this one....
U.S. International Postal Rates, 1872-1996 for $72.15 if anyone is interested.
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Amazon and eBay typically have both available at any time for $75 - $80 a copy. The trick is to keep an eye on the auctions and get one for $50 to $60. Good luck finding one for under $50. I have both and only the Scott US Specialized and Durland catalogs are more important to me. Those books are a key resource for even the most basic US philatelic library!
Lars
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There is a lot that not yet makes sense here. For starters: was the letter even returned? I.e., is there a return to sender marking or some other indication that the letter was returned from its destination in Minnesota, to the original sender in Orange, California?
The void marking on the postage meter to me indicates a clerical error, i.e., no postage due was collected here after all. Perhaps the clerk had stuck the sticker on the wrong envelope, or first thought it was a postage due case, and later determined it was actually not. In any event, the meter was voided, so no postage due collected.
It would possibly help if the purple straight line marking obscured by the label could be read with certainty.
Arno
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Given that I picked up this cover in Minnesota, I suspect it never got back to California, though I don't think that it was the intention that the cover itself be returned to California, but rather that a return receipt be sent back to the sender in California.
As for the purple marking . . . ask and RetroReveal reveals.
_full.jpg)
Postage Due 8 cents.
If I am correct, as this was sent third class, the proper rate would have been 4 cents, leaving 4 cents to cover the return receipt, except as larsdog has noted, return receipts must be sent via first class costing 8 cents, so I am guessing that the cover was due 4 cents, rather than 8 and that is why the meter was voided.
Please correct me if this is not accurate.
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Sorry, Antonio, that does not sound convincing to me at all.
First, let's clean up one confusion. You talk about a "return receipt," (akin to 'delivery confirmation'), a service I doubt is even available on third class mail, whereas David and I are referring to "return service requested." These are two different postal services.
The endorsement on the envelope states "return requested," which is a common endorsement on third class mail. Undeliverable third class mail is neither forwarded nor returned, but destroyed, unless the sender specifies "return (or address) service requested." If returning/forwarding becomes necessary a fee is due. This is the explanation that David put forward.
However, you are saying that no return markings are on the envelope, plus, more importantly, no fee for returning the envelope is evident, because the postage due label was voided.
So, one possibility for what you have is a regular third class envelope with an erroneous application of a Due 8 Cents hand stamp, for which a 8c due meter was applied, which was subsequently voided. Certainly, there could be other explanations. In any event, as of now, I do not see evidence of postage due being collected on this piece of mail.
Arno
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It seems that the simplest explanation is that the letter appeared to be undeliverable and was processed for return to sender as requested but another postal employee in Minn saw it and recognized the address or addressee, thus voiding the return. Just a guess.
Lars
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Arno: I wasn't trying to convince anyone, just wanting to understand. Thanks for the clarification.
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Antonio: Neither am I.
While I believe we are stuck with further explanations of this cover, one important factor that needs consideration is who would actually collect the due amount. Due means cash is collected upon/prior to delivery. I believe, the article would be marked due whenever the underpayment becomes apparent, often at the post office of origination when insufficiently franked, but the collection of the due amount would be up to the post office delivering. This would mean, if returned, that postage due (meter) stamps would be applied by the Orange, Ca. office, not in St. Paul. After all, since Orange collects the cash, it has to issue the stamp serving as the receipt for cash received.
For bulk mailers, who receive returned third class mail all the time, collection usually would be by form, not by franking the individual items (which explains the low Scott CV of the $5.00 postage due stamps which appear in multiples on these forms).
For my convenience, because I am currently traveling, I lifted this image from Roy (BuckaCover):
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Arno's explanation is close to how we handle our third class RTS. There are three ways we see this today. An envelope with a due amount and the return address showing it either as undeliverable or with corrected address is sent to us. That costs the single ounce rate, now 49c. Sometimes a form 5647 (I think that's the form) with a due amount is presented. Most often, the piece itself (an 8.5x11 24-page mailer) is sent, and then we pay the first class on multiple ounces.
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From some recent research associated with an article I was considering for "VOIDED" postage due stamps, this may be helpful.
I have seen mailings from, for example, Dead Letter Branches, that are intended to return to an addressee contents of a previous mailing that was not accomplished, for whatever reason. In order to receive the returned mail, the addressee would be charged an appropriate postage due. The "VOIDED" marking on postage due stamps or meters on these mailings indicates that the attempted delivery to the addressee was unsuccessful and, therefore, the collection of the postage due did not happen.
Thus, the appropriate action to finalize the unsuccessful attempt was to cancel the postage due stamps with “VOIDEDâ€. The letter was then returned to, again for example a Dead Letter Branch, and no further attempt was required.
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Thank you. That makes sense.
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Steve, thanks for that great information on how dues work.
How would that apply in this case? I don't think that the sender has the option to decline a service, and subsequent fee, that he's requested, or so the "guaranteed" implies, right?
And I love all the great information that follows this cover. It is an amazing group of people here who are contributing so much great knowledge.
David
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I'll have you know amsd you are to blame. I now look at my covers and ask myself, "What rate is that paying?" I am going to need at least the domestic rates book for my personal library. 
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sorry, Antonio,
what a wonderful problem i have given you; normally i deliver plain old headaches.
Yes, rates add a whole new dimension to understanding what's possible, plausible. Your collecting interest, and your eye, are too broad and refined to be without this for long.
it's the part of my collecting that i enjoy the most.
And you do have a great eye for the whimsical and unusual.
David
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OK, shoot holes in this:
1. Person in California prepares cover and forgets to attach stamp.
2. Local PO in California stamps it with "Postage Due" notice and returns it to sender (perhaps he has a PO Box).
3. Sender applies 8c stamp (maybe it was more than one ounce or for convenience sender just used a stamp he had lying around and didn't bother changing class of service).
4. Item is postmarked AGAIN in California, this time cancelling stamp.
5. Item arrives in Minnesota and an overanxious clerk sees "Postage Due" and affixes meter strip.
6. Upon reflection or review, the strip is voided.
7. Letter is delivered.
I wish I could tell what the dates are for the two California cancels.
Lars
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Part of the postage due hand-stamp is on the postage stamp itself.
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I got the book! Boy is it awesome! Less awesome was that they sent it insured, which required me to pick it up at the PO. Of course now I have a meter on insured piece paying the media mail insured rate . . .
I think I'm incurable.
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02:12:20pm
"I think I'm incurable."
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Bumping an old thread, as I recently acquired the picture post card scanned below with a VOIDED postage due meter, similar to the one scanned by smauggie in the OP. I also have the Mutual of Omaha cover in my postal history collection showing VOIDED postage due stamps. It appears that the post office was unable to collect the postage due money, so they voided the meter or postage due stamps. There also appears to be a period after VOIDED.
Linus
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I'm guessing the "refused" on the MoO letter is the key. The due stamps were affixed with the intent of collecting postage, but having been refused, the stamps were voided.
this is all supposition
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First I see that someone typed, "Third Class, Return Receipt" on the envelope.
I also see a partially covered over purple stamp saying possible 8¢ Due.
Then there is a big purple voided handstamp on the meter tape itself.
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re: Voided US Postage Due Meter - Any idea what is going on here?
Antonio, what a fabulous envelope.
Third class requires a fee for returned mail, and must be so endorsed. That explains the 8c due (you are probably aware of all this, but there might be others who are not). I don't understand the use of the meter AND the stamp. the stamp looks applied in California, and the due meter in Minn. if it's sent third class, the California amount ought to be significantly less than the Minn amount, unless they didn't know what they were doing OR the stamp represented partial payment OR the contents were removed to make it a single ounce while the original was multiple ounces OR .....
whatever, it's fabulous cover
how do you always come up with these truly oddball pieces to die for, Antonio?
David
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re: Voided US Postage Due Meter - Any idea what is going on here?
i should also add that while the original mailing is sent third class, any return is sent first class. David
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this post
re: Voided US Postage Due Meter - Any idea what is going on here?
Thank you David. I do not yet have a good resource for US rates when especially with the more unusual mail services, so this has been very informative for me.
I have developed an eye for the oddball I guess. Part of that comes from being influenced by other (admittedly awesome) oddballs here in the twin cities philatelic community.
Login to Like
this post
re: Voided US Postage Due Meter - Any idea what is going on here?
Antonio,
do you have the two Beecher and Wawrukiewicz rate books? one is domestic and one is international US rates. For any collector of US covers, it is indispensable for understanding what is being paid and why. Neither are cheap; each is worth its weight in some precious commodity.
David
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this post
re: Voided US Postage Due Meter - Any idea what is going on here?
Thanks for that information. I will keep an eye out for them.
Login to Like
this post
re: Voided US Postage Due Meter - Any idea what is going on here?
AbeBooks.com has this one....
U.S. International Postal Rates, 1872-1996 for $72.15 if anyone is interested.
Login to Like
this post
re: Voided US Postage Due Meter - Any idea what is going on here?
Amazon and eBay typically have both available at any time for $75 - $80 a copy. The trick is to keep an eye on the auctions and get one for $50 to $60. Good luck finding one for under $50. I have both and only the Scott US Specialized and Durland catalogs are more important to me. Those books are a key resource for even the most basic US philatelic library!
Lars
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this post
re: Voided US Postage Due Meter - Any idea what is going on here?
There is a lot that not yet makes sense here. For starters: was the letter even returned? I.e., is there a return to sender marking or some other indication that the letter was returned from its destination in Minnesota, to the original sender in Orange, California?
The void marking on the postage meter to me indicates a clerical error, i.e., no postage due was collected here after all. Perhaps the clerk had stuck the sticker on the wrong envelope, or first thought it was a postage due case, and later determined it was actually not. In any event, the meter was voided, so no postage due collected.
It would possibly help if the purple straight line marking obscured by the label could be read with certainty.
Arno
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re: Voided US Postage Due Meter - Any idea what is going on here?
Given that I picked up this cover in Minnesota, I suspect it never got back to California, though I don't think that it was the intention that the cover itself be returned to California, but rather that a return receipt be sent back to the sender in California.
As for the purple marking . . . ask and RetroReveal reveals.
Postage Due 8 cents.
If I am correct, as this was sent third class, the proper rate would have been 4 cents, leaving 4 cents to cover the return receipt, except as larsdog has noted, return receipts must be sent via first class costing 8 cents, so I am guessing that the cover was due 4 cents, rather than 8 and that is why the meter was voided.
Please correct me if this is not accurate.
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re: Voided US Postage Due Meter - Any idea what is going on here?
Sorry, Antonio, that does not sound convincing to me at all.
First, let's clean up one confusion. You talk about a "return receipt," (akin to 'delivery confirmation'), a service I doubt is even available on third class mail, whereas David and I are referring to "return service requested." These are two different postal services.
The endorsement on the envelope states "return requested," which is a common endorsement on third class mail. Undeliverable third class mail is neither forwarded nor returned, but destroyed, unless the sender specifies "return (or address) service requested." If returning/forwarding becomes necessary a fee is due. This is the explanation that David put forward.
However, you are saying that no return markings are on the envelope, plus, more importantly, no fee for returning the envelope is evident, because the postage due label was voided.
So, one possibility for what you have is a regular third class envelope with an erroneous application of a Due 8 Cents hand stamp, for which a 8c due meter was applied, which was subsequently voided. Certainly, there could be other explanations. In any event, as of now, I do not see evidence of postage due being collected on this piece of mail.
Arno
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re: Voided US Postage Due Meter - Any idea what is going on here?
It seems that the simplest explanation is that the letter appeared to be undeliverable and was processed for return to sender as requested but another postal employee in Minn saw it and recognized the address or addressee, thus voiding the return. Just a guess.
Lars
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re: Voided US Postage Due Meter - Any idea what is going on here?
Arno: I wasn't trying to convince anyone, just wanting to understand. Thanks for the clarification.
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re: Voided US Postage Due Meter - Any idea what is going on here?
Antonio: Neither am I.
While I believe we are stuck with further explanations of this cover, one important factor that needs consideration is who would actually collect the due amount. Due means cash is collected upon/prior to delivery. I believe, the article would be marked due whenever the underpayment becomes apparent, often at the post office of origination when insufficiently franked, but the collection of the due amount would be up to the post office delivering. This would mean, if returned, that postage due (meter) stamps would be applied by the Orange, Ca. office, not in St. Paul. After all, since Orange collects the cash, it has to issue the stamp serving as the receipt for cash received.
For bulk mailers, who receive returned third class mail all the time, collection usually would be by form, not by franking the individual items (which explains the low Scott CV of the $5.00 postage due stamps which appear in multiples on these forms).
For my convenience, because I am currently traveling, I lifted this image from Roy (BuckaCover):
Login to Like
this post
re: Voided US Postage Due Meter - Any idea what is going on here?
Arno's explanation is close to how we handle our third class RTS. There are three ways we see this today. An envelope with a due amount and the return address showing it either as undeliverable or with corrected address is sent to us. That costs the single ounce rate, now 49c. Sometimes a form 5647 (I think that's the form) with a due amount is presented. Most often, the piece itself (an 8.5x11 24-page mailer) is sent, and then we pay the first class on multiple ounces.
Login to Like
this post
re: Voided US Postage Due Meter - Any idea what is going on here?
From some recent research associated with an article I was considering for "VOIDED" postage due stamps, this may be helpful.
I have seen mailings from, for example, Dead Letter Branches, that are intended to return to an addressee contents of a previous mailing that was not accomplished, for whatever reason. In order to receive the returned mail, the addressee would be charged an appropriate postage due. The "VOIDED" marking on postage due stamps or meters on these mailings indicates that the attempted delivery to the addressee was unsuccessful and, therefore, the collection of the postage due did not happen.
Thus, the appropriate action to finalize the unsuccessful attempt was to cancel the postage due stamps with “VOIDEDâ€. The letter was then returned to, again for example a Dead Letter Branch, and no further attempt was required.
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re: Voided US Postage Due Meter - Any idea what is going on here?
Thank you. That makes sense.
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re: Voided US Postage Due Meter - Any idea what is going on here?
Steve, thanks for that great information on how dues work.
How would that apply in this case? I don't think that the sender has the option to decline a service, and subsequent fee, that he's requested, or so the "guaranteed" implies, right?
And I love all the great information that follows this cover. It is an amazing group of people here who are contributing so much great knowledge.
David
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this post
re: Voided US Postage Due Meter - Any idea what is going on here?
I'll have you know amsd you are to blame. I now look at my covers and ask myself, "What rate is that paying?" I am going to need at least the domestic rates book for my personal library.
Login to Like
this post
re: Voided US Postage Due Meter - Any idea what is going on here?
sorry, Antonio,
what a wonderful problem i have given you; normally i deliver plain old headaches.
Yes, rates add a whole new dimension to understanding what's possible, plausible. Your collecting interest, and your eye, are too broad and refined to be without this for long.
it's the part of my collecting that i enjoy the most.
And you do have a great eye for the whimsical and unusual.
David
Login to Like
this post
re: Voided US Postage Due Meter - Any idea what is going on here?
OK, shoot holes in this:
1. Person in California prepares cover and forgets to attach stamp.
2. Local PO in California stamps it with "Postage Due" notice and returns it to sender (perhaps he has a PO Box).
3. Sender applies 8c stamp (maybe it was more than one ounce or for convenience sender just used a stamp he had lying around and didn't bother changing class of service).
4. Item is postmarked AGAIN in California, this time cancelling stamp.
5. Item arrives in Minnesota and an overanxious clerk sees "Postage Due" and affixes meter strip.
6. Upon reflection or review, the strip is voided.
7. Letter is delivered.
I wish I could tell what the dates are for the two California cancels.
Lars
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re: Voided US Postage Due Meter - Any idea what is going on here?
Part of the postage due hand-stamp is on the postage stamp itself.
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re: Voided US Postage Due Meter - Any idea what is going on here?
I got the book! Boy is it awesome! Less awesome was that they sent it insured, which required me to pick it up at the PO. Of course now I have a meter on insured piece paying the media mail insured rate . . .
I think I'm incurable.
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
17 Apr 2014
02:12:20pm
re: Voided US Postage Due Meter - Any idea what is going on here?
"I think I'm incurable."
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re: Voided US Postage Due Meter - Any idea what is going on here?
Bumping an old thread, as I recently acquired the picture post card scanned below with a VOIDED postage due meter, similar to the one scanned by smauggie in the OP. I also have the Mutual of Omaha cover in my postal history collection showing VOIDED postage due stamps. It appears that the post office was unable to collect the postage due money, so they voided the meter or postage due stamps. There also appears to be a period after VOIDED.
Linus
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re: Voided US Postage Due Meter - Any idea what is going on here?
I'm guessing the "refused" on the MoO letter is the key. The due stamps were affixed with the intent of collecting postage, but having been refused, the stamps were voided.
this is all supposition
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