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United States/Stamps : How perf types help identify stamps

 

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larsdog
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APS #220693 ATA#57179

15 Mar 2014
12:04:41pm
Many of you already know this, but for those that don't, here is a tip that can save a little cash!

I wanted a US 1951A plate block. They were going for about $4. US 1951 plate blocks were going for about $2. The prices were consistent with the pricing in the Durland catalog. The only difference between 1951 and 1951A is the perforation, but it's also a different perforation TYPE. 1951 is Bull's Eye perf 11.2 x 11.2. 1951A is EE Perf 11.3 x 10.5. I can't tell the difference from a scan in the number of holes per cm, but it sure is easy to spot the difference between Bull's Eye and EE perf!. The perforations stop in one direction at the stamp corner on Bull's Eye perf. I saw a block listed on eBay as 1951, but a quick look told me it was the rarer 1951A, so I grabbed it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121287384649?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

Lars



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dani20
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15 Mar 2014
12:18:55pm
re: How perf types help identify stamps

Excellent spotting Lars, and it highlights the value of having knowledge in order to be able to make wise purchases.

To all our newbies, the treasures that await are a function of your increasing knowledge. The folks here are quite knowledgeable and most willing to share. Your continuing task is to drain us dry.

I have spoken!

Big Mouth

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bluparrot

16 Mar 2014
05:43:36pm
re: How perf types help identify stamps

Good info, Lars. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was also under the impression that the bullseye perfs do not line up correctly where the four stamps meet.

C108b - Line perf:
Image Not Found

C108c - Bullseye perf:
Image Not Found

Dan - Knowledge is power!

-Les

Moderator's note: I corrected the captions per the discussion that follows to try to avoid confusion as this question has come up again. M#


(Modified by Moderator on 2016-02-17 16:15:29)

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larsdog
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APS #220693 ATA#57179

16 Mar 2014
07:48:15pm
re: How perf types help identify stamps

Sorry, Les. You have them exactly backwards. The problem is likely the poor choice of nomenclature by the catalogs. Bull's Eye is the same as In-Line, but not the same as Line or Electric Eye. The one where the perfs line up should gauge at 11.2 while the other should gauge at 11. I know that's a small difference and precisely why I looked for a better way to differentiate things like this. It's hard to tell the difference with stamps and a gauge in hand, but I can spot it from here in an instant by observing the perf pattern.

Here is a primer:

First is Bull's Eye perf (or In-Line perf):

(Ignore the text at the top, that's where I ramble about collecting philosophy and that isn't part of this topic).

Image Not Found

Next up are EE and L (line) perf:

Image Not Found

Bull's Eye lines up perfectly. EE lines up better than L.

You can also differentiate them in some cases based on where the perforations stop (do they go to the edge of the sheet or not), but issues vary so you can't use this one example as an absolute. However, once you know how the margins vary for a particular issue by viewing a few plate blocks, you can easily identify margin singles, like zip block singles which are cheap and I'm fond of using, from a photo.

Some folks claim that a VERY careful examination of a single will tell you if the perforations line up in all 4 corners, but I am skeptical. I'd rather trust my perf gauge in that case.

Lars

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bluparrot

16 Mar 2014
09:24:32pm
re: How perf types help identify stamps

I'm more confused Confused The Scott Specialized says the perf 11 is a line perf and the 11.2 is bullseye. Furthermore, I measured the perfs on the block I have and get 11. There are no perfs through the margins. Thinking Help!!!Confused

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larsdog
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APS #220693 ATA#57179

16 Mar 2014
10:30:26pm
re: How perf types help identify stamps

"I'm more confused. The Scott Specialized says the perf 11 is a line perf and the 11.2 is bullseye. Furthermore, I measured the perfs on the block I have and get 11. There are no perfs through the margins.."



I just measured mine and my trusty Scott Multi-Gauge shows 10.9 for line perf and 11.1 for Bull's eye. Maybe it's just the way I'm reading it, but there is a measurable difference between the two. However, accurately measuring such a small difference is a pain which is why perf pattern can be a big help.

You only have a margin on one block, and the perfs don't go through that one, so I'm saying that one is Bull's Eye perf.

However, as I clearly warned:

"
issues vary so you can't use this one example as an absolute"



You can't say Bull's Eye NEVER goes to either margin, but so far I have never seen it go to both margins. (By margin, I mean the far edge of the selvage on the outer border of a post office pane).

Lars

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larsdog
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APS #220693 ATA#57179

16 Mar 2014
11:23:48pm
re: How perf types help identify stamps

Perhaps this will help:

Image Not Found

I don't collect perforation varieties unless they are a major catalog number or an indication of a press or type difference, so I don't have C108b and C108c in my collection, but the above collection of blocks IS interesting!

C101-104 is CLEARLY line perf, which is the only way that block was perforated.
C105-108 appears to be Bull's Eye by examining not only the crossing of the perfs in the middle, but the outside corners of the block as well. A careful perf check is still in order without the margins present.

At first glance, C109-112 is also Bull's Eye, but that's impossible. C109-112 was only issued as a line perf. The perfs line up PERFECTLY in the middle, but look especially at the right edge between the stamps and you can see the perfs do NOT line up there.

This is why the margins (selvage) are so important to a quick and unambiguous identification. Of course you can carefully measure the perfs, but differentiating 11 from 11.2 is NOT what I started collecting stamps to do!

Lars

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"Expanding your knowledge faster than your collection can save you a few bucks."

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bluparrot

17 Mar 2014
01:01:43am
re: How perf types help identify stamps

I still don't get it. I think some of the Scott Catalog conclusions may be wrong.

I have a C108c block perf 11, and the perfs all line up (line perf per Scott, and no perfs through the selvage). I measured the perfs using a precision gauge. What am I missing?

-Les




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larsdog
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APS #220693 ATA#57179

17 Mar 2014
05:26:07pm
re: How perf types help identify stamps

Les,
The top image you provided is definitely line perf because the perfs don't line up. Where does Scott say they do line up? Are you sure you're not confusing "In-Line" perf (which is also called Bull's Eye) with "Line" perf? The bottom image is definitely Bull's Eye because the perfs don't go through the top selvage. I counted the perf holes across the two stamps and there are 42 in the top image and 43 in the bottom image. There is one more hole which means a slightly larger number for the perf gauge on the bottom one. When I measured mine I got 10.9 and 11.1 for what is supposed to be 11 and 11.2. If you got a reading of 11 on the bottom block (with selvage), I'd be interested to know what you think the top block is. It's clearly a smaller number just by counting the holes. (fewer holes = smaller number).
Lars

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larsdog
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APS #220693 ATA#57179

19 Mar 2014
07:43:37pm
re: How perf types help identify stamps

Les,
If you measure 11 on the block with selvage, what do you get on the other block?
Lars

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"Expanding your knowledge faster than your collection can save you a few bucks."

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bluparrot

20 Mar 2014
12:31:19am
re: How perf types help identify stamps

Lars, upon more careful examination and more magnification the block with selvage is 11.1. (Not quite the 11.2 that Scott states). The picture of the other block, I "borrowed" from another website Blushing for illustration purposes. These miniscule differences are frustrating! I also think the Scott Catalog had something to do with my confusion - (the terminology).

Considering all of your previous posts would you say that the perfs that don't line up are more than likely "line" and those that do are "bullseye"?

Thank you for your time (and your great website!).

-Les

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larsdog
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APS #220693 ATA#57179

20 Mar 2014
02:24:12am
re: How perf types help identify stamps

Les,

I find it fascinating that we both agree that the block of stamps in question, with aligned perfs, is 11.1.

This is why perf TYPE can be handy, instead of a simple measure of perf gauge, especially when the difference is only 0.2!

Thank you for the additional info.

Lars


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"Expanding your knowledge faster than your collection can save you a few bucks."

www.larsdog.com/stamps
        

 

Author/Postings
Members Picture
larsdog

APS #220693 ATA#57179
15 Mar 2014
12:04:41pm

Many of you already know this, but for those that don't, here is a tip that can save a little cash!

I wanted a US 1951A plate block. They were going for about $4. US 1951 plate blocks were going for about $2. The prices were consistent with the pricing in the Durland catalog. The only difference between 1951 and 1951A is the perforation, but it's also a different perforation TYPE. 1951 is Bull's Eye perf 11.2 x 11.2. 1951A is EE Perf 11.3 x 10.5. I can't tell the difference from a scan in the number of holes per cm, but it sure is easy to spot the difference between Bull's Eye and EE perf!. The perforations stop in one direction at the stamp corner on Bull's Eye perf. I saw a block listed on eBay as 1951, but a quick look told me it was the rarer 1951A, so I grabbed it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121287384649?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

Lars



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"Expanding your knowledge faster than your collection can save you a few bucks."

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Members Picture
dani20

15 Mar 2014
12:18:55pm

re: How perf types help identify stamps

Excellent spotting Lars, and it highlights the value of having knowledge in order to be able to make wise purchases.

To all our newbies, the treasures that await are a function of your increasing knowledge. The folks here are quite knowledgeable and most willing to share. Your continuing task is to drain us dry.

I have spoken!

Big Mouth

Like
Login to Like
this post
bluparrot

16 Mar 2014
05:43:36pm

re: How perf types help identify stamps

Good info, Lars. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was also under the impression that the bullseye perfs do not line up correctly where the four stamps meet.

C108b - Line perf:
Image Not Found

C108c - Bullseye perf:
Image Not Found

Dan - Knowledge is power!

-Les

Moderator's note: I corrected the captions per the discussion that follows to try to avoid confusion as this question has come up again. M#


(Modified by Moderator on 2016-02-17 16:15:29)

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Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
larsdog

APS #220693 ATA#57179
16 Mar 2014
07:48:15pm

re: How perf types help identify stamps

Sorry, Les. You have them exactly backwards. The problem is likely the poor choice of nomenclature by the catalogs. Bull's Eye is the same as In-Line, but not the same as Line or Electric Eye. The one where the perfs line up should gauge at 11.2 while the other should gauge at 11. I know that's a small difference and precisely why I looked for a better way to differentiate things like this. It's hard to tell the difference with stamps and a gauge in hand, but I can spot it from here in an instant by observing the perf pattern.

Here is a primer:

First is Bull's Eye perf (or In-Line perf):

(Ignore the text at the top, that's where I ramble about collecting philosophy and that isn't part of this topic).

Image Not Found

Next up are EE and L (line) perf:

Image Not Found

Bull's Eye lines up perfectly. EE lines up better than L.

You can also differentiate them in some cases based on where the perforations stop (do they go to the edge of the sheet or not), but issues vary so you can't use this one example as an absolute. However, once you know how the margins vary for a particular issue by viewing a few plate blocks, you can easily identify margin singles, like zip block singles which are cheap and I'm fond of using, from a photo.

Some folks claim that a VERY careful examination of a single will tell you if the perforations line up in all 4 corners, but I am skeptical. I'd rather trust my perf gauge in that case.

Lars

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"Expanding your knowledge faster than your collection can save you a few bucks."

www.larsdog.com/stam ...
bluparrot

16 Mar 2014
09:24:32pm

re: How perf types help identify stamps

I'm more confused Confused The Scott Specialized says the perf 11 is a line perf and the 11.2 is bullseye. Furthermore, I measured the perfs on the block I have and get 11. There are no perfs through the margins. Thinking Help!!!Confused

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this post
Members Picture
larsdog

APS #220693 ATA#57179
16 Mar 2014
10:30:26pm

re: How perf types help identify stamps

"I'm more confused. The Scott Specialized says the perf 11 is a line perf and the 11.2 is bullseye. Furthermore, I measured the perfs on the block I have and get 11. There are no perfs through the margins.."



I just measured mine and my trusty Scott Multi-Gauge shows 10.9 for line perf and 11.1 for Bull's eye. Maybe it's just the way I'm reading it, but there is a measurable difference between the two. However, accurately measuring such a small difference is a pain which is why perf pattern can be a big help.

You only have a margin on one block, and the perfs don't go through that one, so I'm saying that one is Bull's Eye perf.

However, as I clearly warned:

"
issues vary so you can't use this one example as an absolute"



You can't say Bull's Eye NEVER goes to either margin, but so far I have never seen it go to both margins. (By margin, I mean the far edge of the selvage on the outer border of a post office pane).

Lars

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"Expanding your knowledge faster than your collection can save you a few bucks."

www.larsdog.com/stam ...
Members Picture
larsdog

APS #220693 ATA#57179
16 Mar 2014
11:23:48pm

re: How perf types help identify stamps

Perhaps this will help:

Image Not Found

I don't collect perforation varieties unless they are a major catalog number or an indication of a press or type difference, so I don't have C108b and C108c in my collection, but the above collection of blocks IS interesting!

C101-104 is CLEARLY line perf, which is the only way that block was perforated.
C105-108 appears to be Bull's Eye by examining not only the crossing of the perfs in the middle, but the outside corners of the block as well. A careful perf check is still in order without the margins present.

At first glance, C109-112 is also Bull's Eye, but that's impossible. C109-112 was only issued as a line perf. The perfs line up PERFECTLY in the middle, but look especially at the right edge between the stamps and you can see the perfs do NOT line up there.

This is why the margins (selvage) are so important to a quick and unambiguous identification. Of course you can carefully measure the perfs, but differentiating 11 from 11.2 is NOT what I started collecting stamps to do!

Lars

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Expanding your knowledge faster than your collection can save you a few bucks."

www.larsdog.com/stam ...
bluparrot

17 Mar 2014
01:01:43am

re: How perf types help identify stamps

I still don't get it. I think some of the Scott Catalog conclusions may be wrong.

I have a C108c block perf 11, and the perfs all line up (line perf per Scott, and no perfs through the selvage). I measured the perfs using a precision gauge. What am I missing?

-Les




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Members Picture
larsdog

APS #220693 ATA#57179
17 Mar 2014
05:26:07pm

re: How perf types help identify stamps

Les,
The top image you provided is definitely line perf because the perfs don't line up. Where does Scott say they do line up? Are you sure you're not confusing "In-Line" perf (which is also called Bull's Eye) with "Line" perf? The bottom image is definitely Bull's Eye because the perfs don't go through the top selvage. I counted the perf holes across the two stamps and there are 42 in the top image and 43 in the bottom image. There is one more hole which means a slightly larger number for the perf gauge on the bottom one. When I measured mine I got 10.9 and 11.1 for what is supposed to be 11 and 11.2. If you got a reading of 11 on the bottom block (with selvage), I'd be interested to know what you think the top block is. It's clearly a smaller number just by counting the holes. (fewer holes = smaller number).
Lars

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"Expanding your knowledge faster than your collection can save you a few bucks."

www.larsdog.com/stam ...
Members Picture
larsdog

APS #220693 ATA#57179
19 Mar 2014
07:43:37pm

re: How perf types help identify stamps

Les,
If you measure 11 on the block with selvage, what do you get on the other block?
Lars

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Expanding your knowledge faster than your collection can save you a few bucks."

www.larsdog.com/stam ...
bluparrot

20 Mar 2014
12:31:19am

re: How perf types help identify stamps

Lars, upon more careful examination and more magnification the block with selvage is 11.1. (Not quite the 11.2 that Scott states). The picture of the other block, I "borrowed" from another website Blushing for illustration purposes. These miniscule differences are frustrating! I also think the Scott Catalog had something to do with my confusion - (the terminology).

Considering all of your previous posts would you say that the perfs that don't line up are more than likely "line" and those that do are "bullseye"?

Thank you for your time (and your great website!).

-Les

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
larsdog

APS #220693 ATA#57179
20 Mar 2014
02:24:12am

re: How perf types help identify stamps

Les,

I find it fascinating that we both agree that the block of stamps in question, with aligned perfs, is 11.1.

This is why perf TYPE can be handy, instead of a simple measure of perf gauge, especially when the difference is only 0.2!

Thank you for the additional info.

Lars


Like
Login to Like
this post

"Expanding your knowledge faster than your collection can save you a few bucks."

www.larsdog.com/stam ...
        

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