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Europe/Other : Switzerland Sitting Helvetias - Need Opinions

 

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HungaryForStamps
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27 Jan 2014
04:53:16pm
I'm getting ready to delve into my hoard of Swiss stamps and recalling previous efforts at identifying Sitting Helvetias. My concern at the time was fake cancels or other such shenanigans and would appreciate opinions from anyone with some knowledge in the area.

I'll start with two problematic ones I've identified from the 1881 set, Scott 66 and 68 (Michel 42 and 44).

First the date on the 1fr looks suspicious since its "77" on a stamp supposedly issued in 1881. The stamp definitely is granite paper (you can see that in the image). Any opinions?

The problem with the 40c is that although the date seems correct for the time, the stamp only has a handful of fibers visible on the back. In fact, the most prominent fiber can be seen in the image and I can probably pull it off with my tongs. Is is possible to fake fibers by pasting them on the back? Or is it possible for there only to be a few fibers (I've never seen another with so few fibers). The alternative is a late usage of the stamp on white wove paper from the 1867-78 set, namely Scott 58(MI 34).

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jkjblue
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28 Jan 2014
01:13:58am
re: Switzerland Sitting Helvetias - Need Opinions

Well, I'll bite as I've just finished putting the Sitting Helvetias in the album. Big Grin

I'm not an expert on Switzerland, though, just a WW classical era collector.

So you are free to ignore my opinion. Laughing

Scott 66 40c gray

The difference in CV between unused ($1) and used ($3,400) means shenanigans are to be expected. A wonderful SON is too good to be true. Winking

I do see 2-3 fibers. But I would be worried about the cancel.

Scott 68 1fr gold

The CV is $20 unused, and $1100 used.

(Yes, the "Shenanigan" rule is in force here too. Big Grin )

My personal opinion- the cancel is bogus.

But, since the payoff is large, perhaps sending them for a Cert could be entertained?

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bigblue1840-1940.blogspot.com/
HungaryForStamps
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28 Jan 2014
02:05:41am
re: Switzerland Sitting Helvetias - Need Opinions

Thanks for your opinion. I have always written these off as being the lesser value, even when originally bidding on the collection, so its no actual loss. Forged cancels are common for these issues.

While I agree there is something fishy about the 1fr, it just irks me that someone would bother to fake a cancel with the wrong year. Just seems silly. If I were doing it, I'd do it right.Laughing

While personally I ascribe to the belief that if its too good to be true then it is, that is, one rarely gets something worth $1100 for the price of $2 (effectively more than I paid actually) or $3500 for less than $1, I like to have something more concrete as proof that the item is bogus than a gut feeling. Hence probably the need for certs.

I personally think the 40c is actually the lesser valuable item, the Scott 58, maybe with a forged cancel. SON cancels are pretty common in Swiss stamps to tell the truth, so that doesn't bother me. But I do wonder about the paper because it doesn't look much like granite paper I've seen, also with only 2 or 3 fibers.

Anyhow, I'll think about sending them for certs, but it hardly seems worth it at this point. I'd pay many times more for the certs than I did for the stamps.

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jkjblue
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28 Jan 2014
09:53:31am
re: Switzerland Sitting Helvetias - Need Opinions

"Anyhow, I'll think about sending them for certs, but it hardly seems worth it at this point. I'd pay many times more for the certs than I did for the stamps."



Well, look at it this way- your chances of winning a large payoff are much higher than the lottery. Laughing

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bigblue1840-1940.blogspot.com/
HungaryForStamps
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28 Jan 2014
12:36:46pm
re: Switzerland Sitting Helvetias - Need Opinions

On second thought that SON on the 40c is pretty perfect, probably too perfect. But, I've got plenty I would consider SONs, but maybe not by general standards. I'll post the Helvetias later, but for now a Tell's "son" SON.

Image Not Found

My favorite, not exactly a SON is the William Tell's Son, used with grilled gum from 1933, with a star on his shirt. This by the way is a Type II, Scott #156a. The others above are supposedly in the same set according to Scott and Michel, but are Type III (second engraving). The earlier Type II's are listed as issued in 1910.

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

28 Jan 2014
12:50:14pm
re: Switzerland Sitting Helvetias - Need Opinions

this is NOT a comment on the stamp, but on the cancel. SONs in Europe are much more likely to be well centered than in the States; it is not uncommon to see a large portion of SONs on an unsorted mix. I say this only because I wouldn't use a good SON as a primary justification to discount a stamp's authenticity.

David

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"Save the USPS, buy stamps; save the hobby, use commemoratives"

juicyheads.com/link.php?PLJZJP
DaveP

09 Dec 2014
01:08:23am
re: Switzerland Sitting Helvetias - Need Opinions

Some call the paper type fiber, and others granite. I see it as white woven with toooo hopeful thinking of riches. Yes, I too have gone thru the exact same thing as you, and other people also-many previously and more to come (maybe a 4th time for the exact stamp itself).
Somehow, the wishful thinking allows us to envision things like both blue and red silk fibers in quantities and large enough to serve their purpose of being easily enough seen by a decent naked eye so that a normal person can tell its real and not counterfeit allowing the postman to make a better hourly wage.. Flagrant, NOT hidden.

When I 'googled' is fibre stamp paper the same as granite, Wikepedia showed a fine example and low and behold, actually used this set of stamps as a reference.
They mentioned a variation of this paper with only blue which had another name. Through my hours of searching though, I never did see a photo of the reverse of this set- anyone? Not me, I ended up being happy with the $143 and not $3429. That is, until I saw what eBaY has done to the market, which puts it into a proportion 3400 is to 140 as 140 is to 15 bucks. BUT CHECK OUT THE WIKEPEDIA on stamp papers- GREAT. We are both blessed and burdened with the information age of today!

Oh well. it was fun and thrilling for the time. Then even returned to report. Thanks.

Can anyone state the range of lengths of the fiber, as in __mm to __mm ?

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Author/Postings
Members Picture
HungaryForStamps

27 Jan 2014
04:53:16pm

I'm getting ready to delve into my hoard of Swiss stamps and recalling previous efforts at identifying Sitting Helvetias. My concern at the time was fake cancels or other such shenanigans and would appreciate opinions from anyone with some knowledge in the area.

I'll start with two problematic ones I've identified from the 1881 set, Scott 66 and 68 (Michel 42 and 44).

First the date on the 1fr looks suspicious since its "77" on a stamp supposedly issued in 1881. The stamp definitely is granite paper (you can see that in the image). Any opinions?

The problem with the 40c is that although the date seems correct for the time, the stamp only has a handful of fibers visible on the back. In fact, the most prominent fiber can be seen in the image and I can probably pull it off with my tongs. Is is possible to fake fibers by pasting them on the back? Or is it possible for there only to be a few fibers (I've never seen another with so few fibers). The alternative is a late usage of the stamp on white wove paper from the 1867-78 set, namely Scott 58(MI 34).

Image Not Found

Image Not Found

Like
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this post
Members Picture
jkjblue

28 Jan 2014
01:13:58am

re: Switzerland Sitting Helvetias - Need Opinions

Well, I'll bite as I've just finished putting the Sitting Helvetias in the album. Big Grin

I'm not an expert on Switzerland, though, just a WW classical era collector.

So you are free to ignore my opinion. Laughing

Scott 66 40c gray

The difference in CV between unused ($1) and used ($3,400) means shenanigans are to be expected. A wonderful SON is too good to be true. Winking

I do see 2-3 fibers. But I would be worried about the cancel.

Scott 68 1fr gold

The CV is $20 unused, and $1100 used.

(Yes, the "Shenanigan" rule is in force here too. Big Grin )

My personal opinion- the cancel is bogus.

But, since the payoff is large, perhaps sending them for a Cert could be entertained?

Like
Login to Like
this post

bigblue1840-1940.blo ...
Members Picture
HungaryForStamps

28 Jan 2014
02:05:41am

re: Switzerland Sitting Helvetias - Need Opinions

Thanks for your opinion. I have always written these off as being the lesser value, even when originally bidding on the collection, so its no actual loss. Forged cancels are common for these issues.

While I agree there is something fishy about the 1fr, it just irks me that someone would bother to fake a cancel with the wrong year. Just seems silly. If I were doing it, I'd do it right.Laughing

While personally I ascribe to the belief that if its too good to be true then it is, that is, one rarely gets something worth $1100 for the price of $2 (effectively more than I paid actually) or $3500 for less than $1, I like to have something more concrete as proof that the item is bogus than a gut feeling. Hence probably the need for certs.

I personally think the 40c is actually the lesser valuable item, the Scott 58, maybe with a forged cancel. SON cancels are pretty common in Swiss stamps to tell the truth, so that doesn't bother me. But I do wonder about the paper because it doesn't look much like granite paper I've seen, also with only 2 or 3 fibers.

Anyhow, I'll think about sending them for certs, but it hardly seems worth it at this point. I'd pay many times more for the certs than I did for the stamps.

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this post
Members Picture
jkjblue

28 Jan 2014
09:53:31am

re: Switzerland Sitting Helvetias - Need Opinions

"Anyhow, I'll think about sending them for certs, but it hardly seems worth it at this point. I'd pay many times more for the certs than I did for the stamps."



Well, look at it this way- your chances of winning a large payoff are much higher than the lottery. Laughing

Like
Login to Like
this post

bigblue1840-1940.blo ...
Members Picture
HungaryForStamps

28 Jan 2014
12:36:46pm

re: Switzerland Sitting Helvetias - Need Opinions

On second thought that SON on the 40c is pretty perfect, probably too perfect. But, I've got plenty I would consider SONs, but maybe not by general standards. I'll post the Helvetias later, but for now a Tell's "son" SON.

Image Not Found

My favorite, not exactly a SON is the William Tell's Son, used with grilled gum from 1933, with a star on his shirt. This by the way is a Type II, Scott #156a. The others above are supposedly in the same set according to Scott and Michel, but are Type III (second engraving). The earlier Type II's are listed as issued in 1910.

Image Not Found

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
28 Jan 2014
12:50:14pm

re: Switzerland Sitting Helvetias - Need Opinions

this is NOT a comment on the stamp, but on the cancel. SONs in Europe are much more likely to be well centered than in the States; it is not uncommon to see a large portion of SONs on an unsorted mix. I say this only because I wouldn't use a good SON as a primary justification to discount a stamp's authenticity.

David

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Save the USPS, buy stamps; save the hobby, use commemoratives"

juicyheads.com/link. ...
DaveP

09 Dec 2014
01:08:23am

re: Switzerland Sitting Helvetias - Need Opinions

Some call the paper type fiber, and others granite. I see it as white woven with toooo hopeful thinking of riches. Yes, I too have gone thru the exact same thing as you, and other people also-many previously and more to come (maybe a 4th time for the exact stamp itself).
Somehow, the wishful thinking allows us to envision things like both blue and red silk fibers in quantities and large enough to serve their purpose of being easily enough seen by a decent naked eye so that a normal person can tell its real and not counterfeit allowing the postman to make a better hourly wage.. Flagrant, NOT hidden.

When I 'googled' is fibre stamp paper the same as granite, Wikepedia showed a fine example and low and behold, actually used this set of stamps as a reference.
They mentioned a variation of this paper with only blue which had another name. Through my hours of searching though, I never did see a photo of the reverse of this set- anyone? Not me, I ended up being happy with the $143 and not $3429. That is, until I saw what eBaY has done to the market, which puts it into a proportion 3400 is to 140 as 140 is to 15 bucks. BUT CHECK OUT THE WIKEPEDIA on stamp papers- GREAT. We are both blessed and burdened with the information age of today!

Oh well. it was fun and thrilling for the time. Then even returned to report. Thanks.

Can anyone state the range of lengths of the fiber, as in __mm to __mm ?

Like
Login to Like
this post
        

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