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General Philatelic/Identify This? : help ID Bavaria Coat of Arms imperfs

 

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seastamp

18 Jan 2014
12:06:41am
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Hi everyone

I'm new to SoR and joined because it seems like there is a wonderful body of knowledge here. I inherited my grandfather's collection as a kid when he died in 1975, and I'm just getting back into it again. His father was an importer who immigrated from Germany in the 1870s, so the collection is rather extensive for early European stamps, especially Germany and Austria. For the first time I actually can afford my own Scott catalog (iPad app), so I'm trying to ID everything carefully.

I have three Bavarian Coat of Arms stamps of the Scott A3 type (e.g., #s 15-37): 1 kreuzer green, 3 kr rose, and 6 kr bister. Two of them (3kr and 6kr) appear to be imperforate and are clearly printed on different paper than the perf 1kr. I can't see a watermark on any of them, but I don't have the best detector (and reluctant to put solvent on them). Scott lists only 2 series of imperf stamps, at the end of the 1870-72 group, which has wmk 92, and at the end of the 1870-72 wmk 93 group. The parent group also is "without silk thread". Note that the backs of the imperfs show different paper with a red line; is this the silk thread? I was initially concerned that the 3kr stamp had the perfs simply cut off, but the paper is identical to the 6K, which to me looks like a bonafide imperforate. If these stamps are from the 1867-68 group (which don't have a watermark indicated), I don't see any mention of imperf varieties. The values listed for the imperfs are insanely high, so I'd really like to make a positive ID.

On another note, and I'll probably post this elsewhere in the general discussion, I haven't been sure what to do about the old paper hinges that many of his older stamps had. I've read posts about how it's OK to soak these very old stamps, but I haven't found specific references to these old types of hinges. They clearly have a tighter bonding adhesive than more modern ones. Any advice on whether to try to remove these or just leave them would be great. Unfortunately even many of the older mint stamps have these.

thanks!

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cdj1122
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..

18 Jan 2014
03:57:43pm
re: help ID Bavaria Coat of Arms imperfs

If there are any hinged stamps that look damaged to you and not worth collecting you could test soak them and see what happens with the hinge.
Similarly, such a stamp can be tested with watermark fluid as well. Much of stamping is testing and experimenting.

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Les
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18 Jan 2014
08:14:46pm
re: help ID Bavaria Coat of Arms imperfs

I have had good luck removing old hinges by using SuperSafe Stamp lift. Use and artist's brush and dab on the liquid. Wait a few seconds and you should be able to lift off the hinge with tongs.

Plain water daubed on the back of the hinge may also work as well. After the hinge bubbles up you should be able to remove it.

Placing the stamps in a stamplift (humidity chamber) type device is also a good technique for removing hinges. They are commercially available or you can make one. I believe the directions can be found here in earllier posts.

In any event, hinges should be removed if at all possible. The chemicals in glassine will react with the chemicals in the stamp paper and eventually (read a long time) destroy the stamp.

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biggeorge
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19 Jan 2014
08:31:59am
re: help ID Bavaria Coat of Arms imperfs

Seastamp,

Welcome to SOR!

I took a look at my Scott Classic catalog (hardcopy) and at your stamps.

First, about the hinges. The stamps are all used and I don't believe any were printed with a 'fugitive' ink, so I would recommend that you soak them in water until the hinges almost slide off the stamp. A common practice years ago was to use bits of selvedge from stamp sheets as hinges. I believe that is what your hinges are. Make sure you dry the stamps so that they do not curl - use a commercial stamp drying book or a blotter with a thin sheet of plastic. Place the stamp face towards the paper and glue side to the plastic.

The watermarks on this series are generally fairly obvious and I do not see any hint of a WM on your stamps. Once the hinges are off, you should watermark them just to confirm. What does show is the embossing of the crest. When you do watermark the stamps (I use lighter fluid and a piece of black stiff plastic) examine the stamps for other strange marks on the back. When you WM the 1 Kr, pay attention to the upper left corner as seen from the back. I think you will see that there is a crease running diagonally. Sometimes a crease cannot be seen until the stamp is being watermarked. The broken ends of the paper fiber will hold more of the fluid and as the WM fluid evaporates, you will see a faint straight line indicating the crease. Others will be visible even before evaporation begins!

6 Kreuzer Bister: I would say that this is Scott 18 with a 2013 CV of $60.00. The right side of the stamp is missing (cut off) so the market value would be considerably less than the CV.

3 Kreuzer Rose: Based on the images this is Scott 16 with a CV of $2.40. It is imperforate. I do not see any catalog listing for This stamp with silk thread and perforated. It is just cut real close! The only problem would be if there were a watermark. But it looks unwatermarked.

1 Kreuzer Green: Not seeing a WM this stamp would be Scott 23 with a CV of $1.60.

I had some time before getting ready for Church this morning and I happened to be sorting some of the same issues last night!

George (biggeorge)

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seastamp

19 Jan 2014
05:50:02pm
re: help ID Bavaria Coat of Arms imperfs

Excellent Biggeorge, thanks for clarifying. In looking at Scott again, I now realize that there is no mention of perforation at the head of the 15-22 series, meaning they are imperforate.

I found the old selvedge bits come off easily with soaking with some test stamps.

I'm posting another old German ID question, hopefully you might answer that as well!

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roy
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19 Jan 2014
05:56:01pm
re: help ID Bavaria Coat of Arms imperfs

"I now realize that there is no mention of perforation at the head of the 15-22 series, meaning they are imperforate."



Not quite. Lack of a perf description does not mean imperf. It means "keep looking at earlier listings until you find a perf or imperf description". Such a description applies to all following listings until it is changed by another listing.

In this case, since the previous series was imperforate and there was no change for 15-22, they are also imperf. For good examples, check out early New Zealand, where they keep going from imperf to perf and back again.

Roy
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Author/Postings
seastamp

18 Jan 2014
12:06:41am

Image Not FoundImage Not FoundImage Not FoundImage Not FoundImage Not FoundImage Not Found

Hi everyone

I'm new to SoR and joined because it seems like there is a wonderful body of knowledge here. I inherited my grandfather's collection as a kid when he died in 1975, and I'm just getting back into it again. His father was an importer who immigrated from Germany in the 1870s, so the collection is rather extensive for early European stamps, especially Germany and Austria. For the first time I actually can afford my own Scott catalog (iPad app), so I'm trying to ID everything carefully.

I have three Bavarian Coat of Arms stamps of the Scott A3 type (e.g., #s 15-37): 1 kreuzer green, 3 kr rose, and 6 kr bister. Two of them (3kr and 6kr) appear to be imperforate and are clearly printed on different paper than the perf 1kr. I can't see a watermark on any of them, but I don't have the best detector (and reluctant to put solvent on them). Scott lists only 2 series of imperf stamps, at the end of the 1870-72 group, which has wmk 92, and at the end of the 1870-72 wmk 93 group. The parent group also is "without silk thread". Note that the backs of the imperfs show different paper with a red line; is this the silk thread? I was initially concerned that the 3kr stamp had the perfs simply cut off, but the paper is identical to the 6K, which to me looks like a bonafide imperforate. If these stamps are from the 1867-68 group (which don't have a watermark indicated), I don't see any mention of imperf varieties. The values listed for the imperfs are insanely high, so I'd really like to make a positive ID.

On another note, and I'll probably post this elsewhere in the general discussion, I haven't been sure what to do about the old paper hinges that many of his older stamps had. I've read posts about how it's OK to soak these very old stamps, but I haven't found specific references to these old types of hinges. They clearly have a tighter bonding adhesive than more modern ones. Any advice on whether to try to remove these or just leave them would be great. Unfortunately even many of the older mint stamps have these.

thanks!

Like
Login to Like
this post

Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
18 Jan 2014
03:57:43pm

re: help ID Bavaria Coat of Arms imperfs

If there are any hinged stamps that look damaged to you and not worth collecting you could test soak them and see what happens with the hinge.
Similarly, such a stamp can be tested with watermark fluid as well. Much of stamping is testing and experimenting.

Like
Login to Like
this post

".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
Members Picture
Les

18 Jan 2014
08:14:46pm

re: help ID Bavaria Coat of Arms imperfs

I have had good luck removing old hinges by using SuperSafe Stamp lift. Use and artist's brush and dab on the liquid. Wait a few seconds and you should be able to lift off the hinge with tongs.

Plain water daubed on the back of the hinge may also work as well. After the hinge bubbles up you should be able to remove it.

Placing the stamps in a stamplift (humidity chamber) type device is also a good technique for removing hinges. They are commercially available or you can make one. I believe the directions can be found here in earllier posts.

In any event, hinges should be removed if at all possible. The chemicals in glassine will react with the chemicals in the stamp paper and eventually (read a long time) destroy the stamp.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
biggeorge

19 Jan 2014
08:31:59am

re: help ID Bavaria Coat of Arms imperfs

Seastamp,

Welcome to SOR!

I took a look at my Scott Classic catalog (hardcopy) and at your stamps.

First, about the hinges. The stamps are all used and I don't believe any were printed with a 'fugitive' ink, so I would recommend that you soak them in water until the hinges almost slide off the stamp. A common practice years ago was to use bits of selvedge from stamp sheets as hinges. I believe that is what your hinges are. Make sure you dry the stamps so that they do not curl - use a commercial stamp drying book or a blotter with a thin sheet of plastic. Place the stamp face towards the paper and glue side to the plastic.

The watermarks on this series are generally fairly obvious and I do not see any hint of a WM on your stamps. Once the hinges are off, you should watermark them just to confirm. What does show is the embossing of the crest. When you do watermark the stamps (I use lighter fluid and a piece of black stiff plastic) examine the stamps for other strange marks on the back. When you WM the 1 Kr, pay attention to the upper left corner as seen from the back. I think you will see that there is a crease running diagonally. Sometimes a crease cannot be seen until the stamp is being watermarked. The broken ends of the paper fiber will hold more of the fluid and as the WM fluid evaporates, you will see a faint straight line indicating the crease. Others will be visible even before evaporation begins!

6 Kreuzer Bister: I would say that this is Scott 18 with a 2013 CV of $60.00. The right side of the stamp is missing (cut off) so the market value would be considerably less than the CV.

3 Kreuzer Rose: Based on the images this is Scott 16 with a CV of $2.40. It is imperforate. I do not see any catalog listing for This stamp with silk thread and perforated. It is just cut real close! The only problem would be if there were a watermark. But it looks unwatermarked.

1 Kreuzer Green: Not seeing a WM this stamp would be Scott 23 with a CV of $1.60.

I had some time before getting ready for Church this morning and I happened to be sorting some of the same issues last night!

George (biggeorge)

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this post
seastamp

19 Jan 2014
05:50:02pm

re: help ID Bavaria Coat of Arms imperfs

Excellent Biggeorge, thanks for clarifying. In looking at Scott again, I now realize that there is no mention of perforation at the head of the 15-22 series, meaning they are imperforate.

I found the old selvedge bits come off easily with soaking with some test stamps.

I'm posting another old German ID question, hopefully you might answer that as well!

Like
Login to Like
this post

BuckaCover.com - 80,000 covers priced 60c to $1.50 - Easy browsing 500 categories
19 Jan 2014
05:56:01pm

re: help ID Bavaria Coat of Arms imperfs

"I now realize that there is no mention of perforation at the head of the 15-22 series, meaning they are imperforate."



Not quite. Lack of a perf description does not mean imperf. It means "keep looking at earlier listings until you find a perf or imperf description". Such a description applies to all following listings until it is changed by another listing.

In this case, since the previous series was imperforate and there was no change for 15-22, they are also imperf. For good examples, check out early New Zealand, where they keep going from imperf to perf and back again.

Roy
Like
Login to Like
this post

"BuckaCover.com - Since 2003 - Over One million covers sold - What have you been missing?"

www.Buckacover.com
        

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