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Europe/Other : French Colonies general issue forgeries

 

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Rhinelander
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15 Nov 2013
11:55:01am
I have problems with identifying the Fournier forgeries of the last general issue for the French colonies. This forgery is well documented. Still, I am unable to tell the difference, because I cannot visualize the written description in Serrane.

Here is a copy, overprinted for Obock, that I am certain is a Fournier fake, mainly because I know that the cancel is fake.

Image Not Found

Here is one, overprinted for Madagascar, that I hope to identify. Specifically, I have a chance to buy, but will do so only if I am convinced it's real:

Image Not Found

If someone can walk me through the steps to identify these abundant fakes, I would be extremely grateful. These have frustrated me many times.

Fournier forged the basic stamps, but mostly upgraded them with fake overprints for the various individual colonies issues. Fake overprints on genuine stamps also exist, but looking at the characteristics of the basic stamp is an essential starting point.

Both of these images I lifted off the internet, so I cannot provide enlarged images. If someone (Jere?) has a good pair of a genuine stamp vs. Fournier forgery of this issue, that would be wonderful.

Arno
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rrraphy
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Retired Consultant

15 Nov 2013
04:04:11pm
re: French Colonies general issue forgeries

Forgeries are now a rampant problem on French related o/p. The sellers, many I suspect are themselves the forgers producing a number of rubber or metal stamps to apply to legitimate new or canceled stamps...week after week after week. They get around the ebay guideline by using the following wording (google it if you must):

"" N° 25* neuf garanti authentique
Surcharge non garantie authentique"

No marking on the back...so the next seller may do anything and the buyer...you and me.... Beware!
rrr....

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"E. Rutherford: All science is either physics or stamp collecting."
Jeredutt3

18 Nov 2013
08:21:00pm
re: French Colonies general issue forgeries

Checked the collection and sorry Arno I don't have either one of those stamps :-(

Will let ya know if I acquire them anytime soon... always on the lookout :-)

Jere

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khj
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18 Nov 2013
08:31:18pm
re: French Colonies general issue forgeries

Rather than type it myself and mark on your pics, I've decided to "borrow" and quote from...

...Klaseboer:

"Genuine stamp has:
1) Perfect perforation in the corners
2) unbroken line to the left of the R
of REPUBLIQUE in bottom tablet.
3) unbroken pole where it touches forehead wreath.
4) No dark dash in lines under right edge of N of COLONIES
5) U shape in right arm buckle.

Forgery has some of the following (maybe not all):
1) Perforation in corners does 'not match'
2) Broken line to the left of the R of REPUBLIQUE in bottom tablet.
3) Broken pole where it touches forehead wreath.
4) Dark dash in lines under right edge of N of COLONIES
5) Line in right arm buckle. "



...Claghorn:

"Genuine stamp has:
unbroken line to the left of the R of REPUBLIQUE in bottom tablet.
unbroken pole where it touches forehead wreath.
No dark dash in lines under right edge of N of COLONIES
U shape in right arm buckle.

Forgery has some (maybe not all):
broken line to the left of the R of REPUBLIQUE in bottom tablet.
broken pole where it touches forehead wreath.
Dark dash in lines under right edge of N of COLONIES
line in right arm buckle."



Hope that was helpful.

k

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khj
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18 Nov 2013
08:33:38pm
re: French Colonies general issue forgeries

I concur, the cancel in the top Obock stamp is fake.

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Rhinelander
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18 Nov 2013
09:05:25pm
re: French Colonies general issue forgeries

khj & Jere,

I don't need an pix of these exact stamps. Any large scan of a genuine plus one forged in this design would do. Of course, ideally with the various differences marked Happy.

A similar description of the differences is also included in Serrane and I assume in other works, since all the authors appear to have copied from each other. My issue is that a description in words does not help me. For instance, the pole is always "broken" where it disappears behind the head. What do the authors mean with a broken pole? Similar for the dash under the N etc. Or a line in the arm buckle? What arm buckle? There are all kinds of lines! In other words, I need to see an illustration with and without these differences to visualize what is meant. Perhaps the descriptions are sufficient for you guys (if so -- you tell me, is the second stamp real, or not?), but I admit that I just can't figure it out.

I have stared at the second of the two stamps for a long time now trying to figure out if the dash under the N is similar to the top copy, which I presume to be a forgery, or not. Of course, that the cancel obscures some of the essential detail does not help either.

In any event, these are extremely common forgeries. The forged basic stamp was used for large quantities of the lower values as well as for superb rarities. The Obock stamp is perhaps a $5.00 stamp. At Fournier's time it was probably $0.10, and it was nevertheless worth faking, because the originals are just so hard to come by. I believe that the catalog values for many of the numerous French colony overprinted stamps in this design are greatly depressed just because so many fakes pass as originals.

I ordered another forgery book last week, which presumably covers this issue as well. Hope it has an illustration, if so, will post here.

Arno

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khj
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18 Nov 2013
09:17:55pm
re: French Colonies general issue forgeries

Arno,

Most of my French Colonies is archived in boxes somewhere, not mounted. I'll see if I can dig them up before the end of the month. Got a lot on my plate through Thanskgiving.

My problem is I collect used stamps. It's hard to find a stamp that has a majority of the tests unobscured. For example, in your Obock stamp, the break in the pole is obscured by the cancel. It's a roughly horizontal line that goes from the tip of the wreath to the right edge of the pole. Your Madagascar stamp does not appear to have the break, but it is hard to say for sure since the resolution is limited as a seller pic.

Hopefully someone has some French Colony stamps handy. If not, I'll try to look for mine in the next 2 weeks, but no promises.

k

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khj
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18 Nov 2013
09:22:29pm
re: French Colonies general issue forgeries

Yes, in the Obock stamp, the dash you see near the right end of the white line separator is indicative of forgery. On your Madagascar stamp, there appears to be some inclusion or something that partially distorts, so I can't say for sure either.

The right arm buckle is in the upper arm, and unfortunately is largely obscured by the right forearm and often by the cancel as well.

Hopefully I can find my stamps (suitable ones) and post some pics later this month.

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Author/Postings
Members Picture
Rhinelander

Support the Hobby -- Join the American Philatelic Society
15 Nov 2013
11:55:01am

I have problems with identifying the Fournier forgeries of the last general issue for the French colonies. This forgery is well documented. Still, I am unable to tell the difference, because I cannot visualize the written description in Serrane.

Here is a copy, overprinted for Obock, that I am certain is a Fournier fake, mainly because I know that the cancel is fake.

Image Not Found

Here is one, overprinted for Madagascar, that I hope to identify. Specifically, I have a chance to buy, but will do so only if I am convinced it's real:

Image Not Found

If someone can walk me through the steps to identify these abundant fakes, I would be extremely grateful. These have frustrated me many times.

Fournier forged the basic stamps, but mostly upgraded them with fake overprints for the various individual colonies issues. Fake overprints on genuine stamps also exist, but looking at the characteristics of the basic stamp is an essential starting point.

Both of these images I lifted off the internet, so I cannot provide enlarged images. If someone (Jere?) has a good pair of a genuine stamp vs. Fournier forgery of this issue, that would be wonderful.

Arno

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
rrraphy

Retired Consultant
15 Nov 2013
04:04:11pm

re: French Colonies general issue forgeries

Forgeries are now a rampant problem on French related o/p. The sellers, many I suspect are themselves the forgers producing a number of rubber or metal stamps to apply to legitimate new or canceled stamps...week after week after week. They get around the ebay guideline by using the following wording (google it if you must):

"" N° 25* neuf garanti authentique
Surcharge non garantie authentique"

No marking on the back...so the next seller may do anything and the buyer...you and me.... Beware!
rrr....

Like
Login to Like
this post

"E. Rutherford: All science is either physics or stamp collecting."
Jeredutt3

18 Nov 2013
08:21:00pm

re: French Colonies general issue forgeries

Checked the collection and sorry Arno I don't have either one of those stamps :-(

Will let ya know if I acquire them anytime soon... always on the lookout :-)

Jere

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
khj

18 Nov 2013
08:31:18pm

re: French Colonies general issue forgeries

Rather than type it myself and mark on your pics, I've decided to "borrow" and quote from...

...Klaseboer:

"Genuine stamp has:
1) Perfect perforation in the corners
2) unbroken line to the left of the R
of REPUBLIQUE in bottom tablet.
3) unbroken pole where it touches forehead wreath.
4) No dark dash in lines under right edge of N of COLONIES
5) U shape in right arm buckle.

Forgery has some of the following (maybe not all):
1) Perforation in corners does 'not match'
2) Broken line to the left of the R of REPUBLIQUE in bottom tablet.
3) Broken pole where it touches forehead wreath.
4) Dark dash in lines under right edge of N of COLONIES
5) Line in right arm buckle. "



...Claghorn:

"Genuine stamp has:
unbroken line to the left of the R of REPUBLIQUE in bottom tablet.
unbroken pole where it touches forehead wreath.
No dark dash in lines under right edge of N of COLONIES
U shape in right arm buckle.

Forgery has some (maybe not all):
broken line to the left of the R of REPUBLIQUE in bottom tablet.
broken pole where it touches forehead wreath.
Dark dash in lines under right edge of N of COLONIES
line in right arm buckle."



Hope that was helpful.

k

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this post
Members Picture
khj

18 Nov 2013
08:33:38pm

re: French Colonies general issue forgeries

I concur, the cancel in the top Obock stamp is fake.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
Rhinelander

Support the Hobby -- Join the American Philatelic Society
18 Nov 2013
09:05:25pm

re: French Colonies general issue forgeries

khj & Jere,

I don't need an pix of these exact stamps. Any large scan of a genuine plus one forged in this design would do. Of course, ideally with the various differences marked Happy.

A similar description of the differences is also included in Serrane and I assume in other works, since all the authors appear to have copied from each other. My issue is that a description in words does not help me. For instance, the pole is always "broken" where it disappears behind the head. What do the authors mean with a broken pole? Similar for the dash under the N etc. Or a line in the arm buckle? What arm buckle? There are all kinds of lines! In other words, I need to see an illustration with and without these differences to visualize what is meant. Perhaps the descriptions are sufficient for you guys (if so -- you tell me, is the second stamp real, or not?), but I admit that I just can't figure it out.

I have stared at the second of the two stamps for a long time now trying to figure out if the dash under the N is similar to the top copy, which I presume to be a forgery, or not. Of course, that the cancel obscures some of the essential detail does not help either.

In any event, these are extremely common forgeries. The forged basic stamp was used for large quantities of the lower values as well as for superb rarities. The Obock stamp is perhaps a $5.00 stamp. At Fournier's time it was probably $0.10, and it was nevertheless worth faking, because the originals are just so hard to come by. I believe that the catalog values for many of the numerous French colony overprinted stamps in this design are greatly depressed just because so many fakes pass as originals.

I ordered another forgery book last week, which presumably covers this issue as well. Hope it has an illustration, if so, will post here.

Arno

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
khj

18 Nov 2013
09:17:55pm

re: French Colonies general issue forgeries

Arno,

Most of my French Colonies is archived in boxes somewhere, not mounted. I'll see if I can dig them up before the end of the month. Got a lot on my plate through Thanskgiving.

My problem is I collect used stamps. It's hard to find a stamp that has a majority of the tests unobscured. For example, in your Obock stamp, the break in the pole is obscured by the cancel. It's a roughly horizontal line that goes from the tip of the wreath to the right edge of the pole. Your Madagascar stamp does not appear to have the break, but it is hard to say for sure since the resolution is limited as a seller pic.

Hopefully someone has some French Colony stamps handy. If not, I'll try to look for mine in the next 2 weeks, but no promises.

k

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
khj

18 Nov 2013
09:22:29pm

re: French Colonies general issue forgeries

Yes, in the Obock stamp, the dash you see near the right end of the white line separator is indicative of forgery. On your Madagascar stamp, there appears to be some inclusion or something that partially distorts, so I can't say for sure either.

The right arm buckle is in the upper arm, and unfortunately is largely obscured by the right forearm and often by the cancel as well.

Hopefully I can find my stamps (suitable ones) and post some pics later this month.

Like
Login to Like
this post
        

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