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General Philatelic/Identify This? : Sudan overprint of Egyptian stamps: real or fake

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Jansimon
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14 Oct 2013
05:49:44am

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The Scott catalogue mentions "Counterfeits of Nos. 1-8 are plentiful.".
Unfortunately it does not help by pointing out what to look for in order to recognise the real thing.

Does anyone know if the stamps shown below are real or forged?

Image Not Found

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timbres
14 Oct 2013
10:43:17am
re: Sudan overprint of Egyptian stamps: real or fake

Hi Jansimon,

I have a copy (PDF) of the "Sérane" for fake and forgery" if you can find a copy of this book, in page "53" in "SOUDAN" they give some clue but no image... the also tell to look in the "French Colonies" for the same type of false overprint. I try to copy and paste my PDF but I am not able to do it., I have to leave the house but in few hours I will have time to copy it in this discusion board... if you still need it...

see you later,

Jacques

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TheBlueDude
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To error is human -to really fowl things up takes a computer
14 Oct 2013
11:13:23am
re: Sudan overprint of Egyptian stamps: real or fake

This overprint is listed in the Fournier Album but no details. Here's a link to the page.

http://www.geocities.com/claghorn1p/FournierAlbum/164.htm

Ross

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rrraphy
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Retired Ap. Book Mod. Retired Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Retired consultant
14 Oct 2013
03:54:57pm
re: Sudan overprint of Egyptian stamps: real or fake

Image Not FoundI have the same problem, but at least I can identify the blatant fakes..here the two Inverted O/P. In the second photo, there is a mix of real and counterfeit, by my opinion, and I look at the spacing between letters (U and D in particular) and the spacing between arabic and latin characters, as well as the alignment of the two lines. My guess; my #4 and #5 are fakes, and the others are probably genuine (#2 is doubtful).
Image Not Found
But there are really good fakes as well!
rrr...

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"C. Hitchens — 'That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.'"
timbres
14 Oct 2013
04:25:10pm
re: Sudan overprint of Egyptian stamps: real or fake

Jansimon, can you read easely the french language ?? if so I will copy the "Sérane" text about the SUDAN, if not I can try to translate....

Jacques

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timbres
14 Oct 2013
04:39:10pm
re: Sudan overprint of Egyptian stamps: real or fake

As I understand the "SÉRANE" explanation, it's by comparing the stamps.... that you can see the differences,the main thing said in this book is that the false overprint have been made at GENEVA on original used stamps with Egypt cancellation....

In French, we read:

"SOUDAN ÉGYPTIEN
1897. Surchargés SOUDAN nos. 1 à 8. Fausses surcharges : comparaison nécessaire. Toute la série existe faussement surchargée à Genève sur timbres originaux oblitérés d’Égypte."

hope it's help a little....

Jacques

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Jansimon
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14 Oct 2013
05:50:34pm

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re: Sudan overprint of Egyptian stamps: real or fake

Hi Jacques,
Merci beaucoup! I understand French enough to read it. Speaking is more difficult. I suppose the real challenge with these overprints is finding real ones that can be used as a benchmark...

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meostamps
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14 Oct 2013
06:01:19pm
re: Sudan overprint of Egyptian stamps: real or fake

Jan and all...Here is an image of a good one auction # 3933, to compare to.

http://stampauctionnetwork.com/rs/rs101157.cfm


Mike in NC / meostamps

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meostamps
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14 Oct 2013
06:06:22pm
re: Sudan overprint of Egyptian stamps: real or fake

This stampboard posting has a page from an old catalogue with info on the overprint

http://www.stampcommunity.org/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12129&whichpage=2


Mike in NC / meostamps

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khj
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14 Oct 2013
11:32:47pm
re: Sudan overprint of Egyptian stamps: real or fake

This is a set that remains on my list of "things to look into later".

Several different fakes exist. The fakes outnumber the genuine, but as with the Persian stamps, you can usually expect a mix of genuine and fakes in the same batch (my opinion, no statistical evidence to back it up).

You have to be little careful when comparing to a known genuine stamp. You might be able to confirm it is genuine, but just because it doesn't look exactly the same doesn't mean it is a fake. Genuine overprints come in 6 types, and there is more than one setting, not to mention varieties that have been confirmed as genuine. If you really want to get into it (I wish I had the time and the health), you might want to consider the Sudan Study Group.

Happy k

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khj
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14 Oct 2013
11:44:32pm
re: Sudan overprint of Egyptian stamps: real or fake

On Ralph's stamps, I agree #4 and #5 are fakes, in addition to the 2 inverted overprints. I would say #1 is likely a fake as well (or maybe a genuine type/variety I am unaware of), and #2 looks suspicious. On those 2 stamps (and on cancelled stamps in general), you can check to see if the cancel is over or beneath the overprint. My non-expert opinion, as I haven't really studied these overprint/fake history in detail.

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Jansimon
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15 Oct 2013
03:57:39am

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re: Sudan overprint of Egyptian stamps: real or fake

Ralph's #2 has a cancel "...OUM" - that might be KHARTOUM in the Sudan. I think this is very difficult and confusing.

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rrraphy
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Retired Ap. Book Mod. Retired Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Retired consultant
15 Oct 2013
12:54:27pm
re: Sudan overprint of Egyptian stamps: real or fake

Thanks Kim:
Not sure about #2...but also not sure about #1, since the cancellation is on top of the O/P..so I still think "genuine"...but I do hear you!
#3 seems to be the only clearly genuine one...and I happen to have 2 samples, with the second one clearly a counterfeit, as the o/p sit visibly on top of the cancellation...I just did not post a picture, but can if anyone is intrigued.
I have been looking for the 1-8 Sudan stamps for a while, but won't pay the price without a certificate, and most of what I see at auction and on the internet is just worth nothing like the asking prices (unless you specialize in counterfeit).

This brought me back to some Lebanon stamps I labeled as fakes, but now I think it may be a paper variety, post world war II, but there is no mention of it in my sources... I will start a new thread on the topic, and would appreciate any comments.
Rrr...

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"C. Hitchens — 'That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.'"
youpiao
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22 Mar 2016
01:43:45pm
re: Sudan overprint of Egyptian stamps: real or fake

Since the fake overprints are applied to previously cancelled stamps, I wonder: Are any of the affordably-priced USB microscopes of high enough resolution to be able to discern if the overprint ink lies atop the cancellation ink?

Ted
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stampchi
20 May 2016
08:48:42pm
re: Sudan overprint of Egyptian stamps: real or fake

I would say that the 1st 13 stamps are genuine. They are reasonably common and there are several settings. The postmarks, when reasonably clear, give a good indication. They are listed in standard catalogues.

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