Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Do you recommend wrapping each album in bubble wrap or packing paper to keep them closed and intact? Or would wrapping the albums potentially harm the stamps (humidity, heat)? I've bought large lots before and I've always found stamps that came loose when the albums were just packed 'as is' inside a box.
Also, as shipping dates are flexible, should I plan for Spring or Fall, when the weather is generally calmer and cooler, or does it matter? I'm thinking one should avoid summer and winter extreme climates.
Thanks.
Peter
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Peter, are you hauling them in your car, or having a moving company take them for you?
When I moved my collection down from New York to Texas, I had it all in my car. They were Scott International and Specialty Albums. I got good, sturdy boxes (try liquor stores for strong boxes). I placed the albums standing up in the boxes so that heat and humidity (I moved in the summer) wouldn't cause damage. I used cardboard filler (plenty of bottle slats in those liquor boxes work perfect for that) to place inside the album binders to keep the pages from shifting about, and cardboard on the outside of the binders to keep the binders from shifting around in the boxes. I did not tape the boxes shut, just folded the flaps over to close the boxes from the top. The trip lasted four days, and no harm came to the stamps or albums.
I have heard horror stories about collections being stolen by movers. If you are having it hauled for you, I'd get insurance for the collection (if you don't already have it) and notify the insurance company of what you are doing. Ask them if they have any suggestions for properly packing your collection for both protection of the stamps and safety from theft so you'll be covered in case something happens.
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Thanks Michael. I was planning on sending them ahead by UPS; would you not recommend that? I like the idea of standing the albums up; I have very sturdy packing boxes and figure my entire collection, including all items I'm selling, will take more space than I have in my car. I might just take the key collections with me and ship the rest by UPS.
edit: Odd, this post says it has six replies (including mine) but I only see Michael's. 
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Peter,
Shipping by UPS!!!! I can see your collections future. As you arrive in the northwest there's a warm September rain and there on your new front porch sit several brown water logged boxes that where at one time your stamp collection and reference material. The bottom box is complete split open under the weight of the other 4 boxes leaning slightly to the left,the 5th box is laying in mud as it has fallen off.
You contact UPS and @#$@#W@$%^^&^ look what you did to my stamp collection you owe me $$$$$$$$. They tell you to "File a Claim" then drag there feet for several months and loosing your paperwork at least once. Then UPS ask for "receipts for every item". After several months to a year you get $100.00 check as they pro-rated your collection-What do you want the stamps where used!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! UPS exclaims!!!!
Peter PLEASE find another way. My girlfriend is a claims adjuster for international packages and the stories I hear would make you go POSTAL.
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For the past 6 years my wife has shipped expensive china pieces all over the world through UPS without incident, either loss or breakage. Good packing skills are a plus.
If you go to the UPS web page and sign up for MYUPS you can schedule when you want UPS to deliver your packages, you set the day and time of delivery. UPS also offers HFPU (hold for pick up) service. UPS will send you an e-mail letting you know when your shipment has arrived so you can pick it up at their local office.
Considering the very, very, very low risk of UPS losing your packages (including crashes) I wouldn't buy the expensive insurance. Freight insurance can be tricky to collect the full amount and even if you do it will be 6 months later. Besides the risk of something bad happening while you were driving across country with a stamp collection in your car would be far greater than shipping it UPS.
If you ship your collection UPS or Fed Ex bring a wad of cash and make sure you use air service. If your albums go ground they will stop at multiple sort and consolidation centers which increases the opportunity for damage. Use heavy gauge cardboard boxes and make sure there isn't any dead air space inside the boxes.
BTW International freight claims are governed by international treaties and are different than domestic claims.
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01:43:45am
I agree about shipping unless there is certain to be someone at the receiving address who can make sure they are brought inside. And that person has to be self assured enough to take a look before accepting the boxes to note any damage.
However, if possible drag them along in a truck.
When I moved south with everything I owned in a Ryder truck I packed and sealed everything myself and with my son's help loaded and unloaded everything myself, from my albums to my extensive shop equipment. Loaded properly all arrived when I arrived and nothing of any consequence was damaged.
As to boxes for albums, I had gathered a dozen of the large square-ish gallon antifreeze boxes from one of the discount stores and a lot of imported Scotch boxes from a liquor store. They were sturdy and just the right size for albums to be packed standing in alternating directions and sealed. We drove south, 1300 miles but stopped several times along the way to let the kids enjoy the trip so the trip took almost a week.
Good luck.
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Thanks everyone! If I were to ship UPS, the advice to have them hold it for me to pick up is a great idea! Ross, that image is just too horrible to imagine, so that would be the option. Can you specify something to fly across the country versus via their trucks? I didn't know that.
The problem with bringing all boxes with me is that I will have a car, not a truck; can't put Coco dog in a truck (well I CAN but I wouldn't think that's good for Coco dog!). I've driven from Mississippi to Connecticut with a car in tow and would never do that again.
My preference would be UPS over FedEx as the latter has delayed, lost, or otherwise mismanaged too many overnight packages for me; never had a problem with the former. In fact, once FedEx sent me a gift certificate to apologize for the delayed delivery. It arrived two days after it expired! LOL!
Cheers,
Peter
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Peter,
Sounds like you will be packing your items. Definitely do NOT let UPS pack them. My husband shipped an antique stone table from Florida to Iowa. He just dropped it off at UPS and had them pack it up. It arrived in pieces. Thanfully he had insured it. They really didn't squabble much about paying up - all I had to do was get a statement of value and send it to them. While they did a terrible job packing, they were pretty responsive in customer service.
Is your car unable to tow a small uHaul trailer? If not, then you will be well served by all the advice here.
Best wishes on your move - may it go smoothly and everything arrive safely.
Sally
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Thanks Sally. My current car is a 2002 Saturn L300 sedan; love that car, and it only has 5800 miles! But it is starting to show its age and I worry about it going across the country. I might buy something like a Subaru Outback but I'm still not crazy about towing anything but maybe a small trailer might be easier.
Cheers,
Peter
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Peter,
We have two Subaru Outbacks. Nothing but good things to say: excellent gas mileage for an all wheel drive car, they will go almost anywhere ( takes 4 wheel drive to get to our house), and the newer ones are very comfortable. Would highly recommend them. How can a 2002 Saturn only have 5800 miles?
Sally
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Sorry Sally, that should be 58,000 miles! LOL! Still, not bad for 2002. That's about 5200 miles a year or about 14 miles a day.
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I moved from north (Michigan) to south (Florida) 14 years ago. I kind of had the same problem and after getting a lot of shipping estimates, I decided the best option was to rent a big panel truck and a car hauler trailer. I packed everything myself and loaded too. I also filled up the car with boxes after loading on the trailer and headed out. Obviously there is always a chance of an accident, but packing properly is the most important aspect and use a lot of tie down straps. I arrived with Zero damage and no worry about where anything was and what condition it was going to arrive in. I was going to be driving a vehicle to Florida, so it might as well be a truck. 2 birds with 1 stone as they say.
Parking at motels for the night and getting into gas stations was a challenge, but a experience I will never forget. Well worth the aggravation.
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Thanks DC; unfortunately, a moving truck is not an option for me with a dog to bring along; she can't site on the bucket set in the front, and besides, I don't think they'll allow dogs on the rental truck anyway.
Careful packing seems to be the key no matter how it is transported. I'm now thinking of double boxing (Ross' image of soaked boxes still haunts my dreams!). I was going to pack my books and computer equipment into a moving pod to be transported on its own, and the computer equipment was going to be double boxed with corner padding. So I can do something similar with the stamp boxes. I might line the inside box with clear wrap around the outside too. Thoughts?
Peter
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08:11:53am
One side note, Peter. Many motels now accept pets, but for my money, I would try to stick with La Quinta - very comfortable and VERY pet friendly!
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Peter - I think you are on the right track. No matter how you end up shipping, proper packing will give you the comfort of making your stamps safe. The POD approach is good because you get to pack the POD and put things where you want them and with proper packing materials, blankets, etc. around items to keep them from getting damaged from jostling around. Most of the shipping trucks have Air Ride suspensions, but things do get shuffled around and over the long haul start settling and can start mushing stuff down. Make sure you put heavy on bottom and light weight on top. Also, most the POD's are equipped for battens to keep your stuff from shifting with sudden stops. It is good to use them when available and use strapping to tie objects down. A cheap packing material is the high density foam insulation panels you can buy at any home improvement center. They usually are in 4'x8' sheets and can be cut down to any size very easy with a knife. I have used this to line the inside of boxes for shipping heavier objects for added protection. Would be perfect for packing your books. Home Depot also sells Heavy Duty packing boxes with cardboard that is about twice as heavy as their regular packing boxes.
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Thanks for the tips!!
I didn't know about La Quinta Inns but I did know Best Western took pets; I'll check out all options.
Cheers,
Peter
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Peter,
I thought maybe your Saturn was such a special car that you only drove it on Sundays, haha. Will you be moving your coin collection with your stamps? Can't imagine shipping that UPS......Sally
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Hi Sally. I'm thinking to coins and QV stamp collection will accompany me in the new more spacious Subaru Outback (I'm convincing myself here). Depending on how paranoid I get about it, I might even lug the boxes into the hotel with me at each stop over too. Other than these, and my laptop, and Coco dog, there won't be anything of value left in the parked car overnight.
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Sounds like a plan. You might get quite a workout depending on how many nights you end up carrying all that into a hotel.... Best of luck. Sally
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Peter,
You may have already thought of this, but you may wish to take a few albums or pages with you personally. If I were shipping my entire stamp collection across the country I would probably take the first binder of definitives, the first binder of commemoratives, the airmail binder and the BOB binder with me personally. I would also pull the Legends of the West error sheet from binder 6. At the very least I would pull the pages for the Columbus stamps, Trans-Mississippi, White Plains Souv. sheet, Legends error, Zeppelins, and State Department Officials to take with the first 20 pages or so of the first definitive album. That would all fit in a single binder.
Lars
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Never mind. Looks like that's already been discussed. If I left anything in the car it would be in the trunk, and I would ALWAYS take the most valuable stuff with me to the room each night but lock in the trunk when I left the room (e.g. going to breakfast). Try to make your car a very unattractive target by not leaving anything in view (like a radar detector or GPS) and park under a light if possible. If they don't break in in the first place they won't accidentally stumble upon the goodies!
Lars
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Thanks Lars; you've reinforced what I thought I should do, in terms of bringing the more treasured of the collection with me. Maybe I can get Coco dog to lug it around in a little back pack? Just kidding!!!
That may be one advantage of the Saturn with its locked trunk versus the Subaru Outback, which is a wagon and has a more open trunk/storage area.
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the outback wagon has a cover that conceals what's in there. incidentally, consider the legacy, which is the lower priced, lower sitting car of the same make. contact me privately if you want to chat Subarus, which have graced our gravel for 15 years without break.
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Thanks Dave; didn't even think of the Legacy.
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I have used the cover for the cargo area in the Outback several times. It does conceal things nicely. Under the floor in the back is a small area where items can be hidden and you don't even need the cover. You wouldn't be able to keep big albums there, but boxes of coins or something small would fit. If you are serious about a new car, you should test out several Subaru models; each has something good to offer. (I do not work for Subaru, haha)...
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Sally, that's a good suggestion; there are about four Subaru dealers not far from me in metro Atlanta, but unfortunately they have limited stock of Legacy and some better equipped Outbacks.
What do you think of the Forester?
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Well, I don't think it rides as nicely as an Outback but am probably biased. Forestors are a little less expensive. If you have back problems, the newer Outbacks have such good lumbar support in the driver's seat that I don't even need to use the little back support thingy that I have to use in our 2006. Outback owners tend to be fiercely loyal - once you have one, you don't want anything else. We have a good friend who finally traded in his first Outback once it hit 328,000 miles. He only got a new one because the interior was too worn out, it still ran great. Feel free to email me if you want more information.....Sally
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08:28:12am
I'm seeking advice on how best to pack a collection of about 40 albums for shipment across the country. These will be primarily stock books but there will be some three ring binders (including some Scott International) too.
Do you recommend wrapping each album in bubble wrap or packing paper to keep them closed and intact? Or would wrapping the albums potentially harm the stamps (humidity, heat)? I've bought large lots before and I've always found stamps that came loose when the albums were just packed 'as is' inside a box.
Also, as shipping dates are flexible, should I plan for Spring or Fall, when the weather is generally calmer and cooler, or does it matter? I'm thinking one should avoid summer and winter extreme climates.
Thanks.
Peter
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03:52:52pm
re: Advice for packing a large collection to ship across the country
Peter, are you hauling them in your car, or having a moving company take them for you?
When I moved my collection down from New York to Texas, I had it all in my car. They were Scott International and Specialty Albums. I got good, sturdy boxes (try liquor stores for strong boxes). I placed the albums standing up in the boxes so that heat and humidity (I moved in the summer) wouldn't cause damage. I used cardboard filler (plenty of bottle slats in those liquor boxes work perfect for that) to place inside the album binders to keep the pages from shifting about, and cardboard on the outside of the binders to keep the binders from shifting around in the boxes. I did not tape the boxes shut, just folded the flaps over to close the boxes from the top. The trip lasted four days, and no harm came to the stamps or albums.
I have heard horror stories about collections being stolen by movers. If you are having it hauled for you, I'd get insurance for the collection (if you don't already have it) and notify the insurance company of what you are doing. Ask them if they have any suggestions for properly packing your collection for both protection of the stamps and safety from theft so you'll be covered in case something happens.
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06:11:16pm
re: Advice for packing a large collection to ship across the country
Thanks Michael. I was planning on sending them ahead by UPS; would you not recommend that? I like the idea of standing the albums up; I have very sturdy packing boxes and figure my entire collection, including all items I'm selling, will take more space than I have in my car. I might just take the key collections with me and ship the rest by UPS.
edit: Odd, this post says it has six replies (including mine) but I only see Michael's.
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To error is human -to really fowl things up takes a computer
30 Aug 2013
08:25:30pm
re: Advice for packing a large collection to ship across the country
Peter,
Shipping by UPS!!!! I can see your collections future. As you arrive in the northwest there's a warm September rain and there on your new front porch sit several brown water logged boxes that where at one time your stamp collection and reference material. The bottom box is complete split open under the weight of the other 4 boxes leaning slightly to the left,the 5th box is laying in mud as it has fallen off.
You contact UPS and @#$@#W@$%^^&^ look what you did to my stamp collection you owe me $$$$$$$$. They tell you to "File a Claim" then drag there feet for several months and loosing your paperwork at least once. Then UPS ask for "receipts for every item". After several months to a year you get $100.00 check as they pro-rated your collection-What do you want the stamps where used!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! UPS exclaims!!!!
Peter PLEASE find another way. My girlfriend is a claims adjuster for international packages and the stories I hear would make you go POSTAL.
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re: Advice for packing a large collection to ship across the country
For the past 6 years my wife has shipped expensive china pieces all over the world through UPS without incident, either loss or breakage. Good packing skills are a plus.
If you go to the UPS web page and sign up for MYUPS you can schedule when you want UPS to deliver your packages, you set the day and time of delivery. UPS also offers HFPU (hold for pick up) service. UPS will send you an e-mail letting you know when your shipment has arrived so you can pick it up at their local office.
Considering the very, very, very low risk of UPS losing your packages (including crashes) I wouldn't buy the expensive insurance. Freight insurance can be tricky to collect the full amount and even if you do it will be 6 months later. Besides the risk of something bad happening while you were driving across country with a stamp collection in your car would be far greater than shipping it UPS.
If you ship your collection UPS or Fed Ex bring a wad of cash and make sure you use air service. If your albums go ground they will stop at multiple sort and consolidation centers which increases the opportunity for damage. Use heavy gauge cardboard boxes and make sure there isn't any dead air space inside the boxes.
BTW International freight claims are governed by international treaties and are different than domestic claims.
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31 Aug 2013
01:43:45am
re: Advice for packing a large collection to ship across the country
I agree about shipping unless there is certain to be someone at the receiving address who can make sure they are brought inside. And that person has to be self assured enough to take a look before accepting the boxes to note any damage.
However, if possible drag them along in a truck.
When I moved south with everything I owned in a Ryder truck I packed and sealed everything myself and with my son's help loaded and unloaded everything myself, from my albums to my extensive shop equipment. Loaded properly all arrived when I arrived and nothing of any consequence was damaged.
As to boxes for albums, I had gathered a dozen of the large square-ish gallon antifreeze boxes from one of the discount stores and a lot of imported Scotch boxes from a liquor store. They were sturdy and just the right size for albums to be packed standing in alternating directions and sealed. We drove south, 1300 miles but stopped several times along the way to let the kids enjoy the trip so the trip took almost a week.
Good luck.
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07:33:52am
re: Advice for packing a large collection to ship across the country
Thanks everyone! If I were to ship UPS, the advice to have them hold it for me to pick up is a great idea! Ross, that image is just too horrible to imagine, so that would be the option. Can you specify something to fly across the country versus via their trucks? I didn't know that.
The problem with bringing all boxes with me is that I will have a car, not a truck; can't put Coco dog in a truck (well I CAN but I wouldn't think that's good for Coco dog!). I've driven from Mississippi to Connecticut with a car in tow and would never do that again.
My preference would be UPS over FedEx as the latter has delayed, lost, or otherwise mismanaged too many overnight packages for me; never had a problem with the former. In fact, once FedEx sent me a gift certificate to apologize for the delayed delivery. It arrived two days after it expired! LOL!
Cheers,
Peter
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re: Advice for packing a large collection to ship across the country
Peter,
Sounds like you will be packing your items. Definitely do NOT let UPS pack them. My husband shipped an antique stone table from Florida to Iowa. He just dropped it off at UPS and had them pack it up. It arrived in pieces. Thanfully he had insured it. They really didn't squabble much about paying up - all I had to do was get a statement of value and send it to them. While they did a terrible job packing, they were pretty responsive in customer service.
Is your car unable to tow a small uHaul trailer? If not, then you will be well served by all the advice here.
Best wishes on your move - may it go smoothly and everything arrive safely.
Sally
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11:46:49am
re: Advice for packing a large collection to ship across the country
Thanks Sally. My current car is a 2002 Saturn L300 sedan; love that car, and it only has 5800 miles! But it is starting to show its age and I worry about it going across the country. I might buy something like a Subaru Outback but I'm still not crazy about towing anything but maybe a small trailer might be easier.
Cheers,
Peter
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re: Advice for packing a large collection to ship across the country
Peter,
We have two Subaru Outbacks. Nothing but good things to say: excellent gas mileage for an all wheel drive car, they will go almost anywhere ( takes 4 wheel drive to get to our house), and the newer ones are very comfortable. Would highly recommend them. How can a 2002 Saturn only have 5800 miles?
Sally
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02:07:21pm
re: Advice for packing a large collection to ship across the country
Sorry Sally, that should be 58,000 miles! LOL! Still, not bad for 2002. That's about 5200 miles a year or about 14 miles a day.
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re: Advice for packing a large collection to ship across the country
I moved from north (Michigan) to south (Florida) 14 years ago. I kind of had the same problem and after getting a lot of shipping estimates, I decided the best option was to rent a big panel truck and a car hauler trailer. I packed everything myself and loaded too. I also filled up the car with boxes after loading on the trailer and headed out. Obviously there is always a chance of an accident, but packing properly is the most important aspect and use a lot of tie down straps. I arrived with Zero damage and no worry about where anything was and what condition it was going to arrive in. I was going to be driving a vehicle to Florida, so it might as well be a truck. 2 birds with 1 stone as they say.
Parking at motels for the night and getting into gas stations was a challenge, but a experience I will never forget. Well worth the aggravation.
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07:28:22am
re: Advice for packing a large collection to ship across the country
Thanks DC; unfortunately, a moving truck is not an option for me with a dog to bring along; she can't site on the bucket set in the front, and besides, I don't think they'll allow dogs on the rental truck anyway.
Careful packing seems to be the key no matter how it is transported. I'm now thinking of double boxing (Ross' image of soaked boxes still haunts my dreams!). I was going to pack my books and computer equipment into a moving pod to be transported on its own, and the computer equipment was going to be double boxed with corner padding. So I can do something similar with the stamp boxes. I might line the inside box with clear wrap around the outside too. Thoughts?
Peter
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
01 Sep 2013
08:11:53am
re: Advice for packing a large collection to ship across the country
One side note, Peter. Many motels now accept pets, but for my money, I would try to stick with La Quinta - very comfortable and VERY pet friendly!
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re: Advice for packing a large collection to ship across the country
Peter - I think you are on the right track. No matter how you end up shipping, proper packing will give you the comfort of making your stamps safe. The POD approach is good because you get to pack the POD and put things where you want them and with proper packing materials, blankets, etc. around items to keep them from getting damaged from jostling around. Most of the shipping trucks have Air Ride suspensions, but things do get shuffled around and over the long haul start settling and can start mushing stuff down. Make sure you put heavy on bottom and light weight on top. Also, most the POD's are equipped for battens to keep your stuff from shifting with sudden stops. It is good to use them when available and use strapping to tie objects down. A cheap packing material is the high density foam insulation panels you can buy at any home improvement center. They usually are in 4'x8' sheets and can be cut down to any size very easy with a knife. I have used this to line the inside of boxes for shipping heavier objects for added protection. Would be perfect for packing your books. Home Depot also sells Heavy Duty packing boxes with cardboard that is about twice as heavy as their regular packing boxes.
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10:28:55am
re: Advice for packing a large collection to ship across the country
Thanks for the tips!!
I didn't know about La Quinta Inns but I did know Best Western took pets; I'll check out all options.
Cheers,
Peter
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re: Advice for packing a large collection to ship across the country
Peter,
I thought maybe your Saturn was such a special car that you only drove it on Sundays, haha. Will you be moving your coin collection with your stamps? Can't imagine shipping that UPS......Sally
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08:11:09am
re: Advice for packing a large collection to ship across the country
Hi Sally. I'm thinking to coins and QV stamp collection will accompany me in the new more spacious Subaru Outback (I'm convincing myself here). Depending on how paranoid I get about it, I might even lug the boxes into the hotel with me at each stop over too. Other than these, and my laptop, and Coco dog, there won't be anything of value left in the parked car overnight.
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re: Advice for packing a large collection to ship across the country
Sounds like a plan. You might get quite a workout depending on how many nights you end up carrying all that into a hotel.... Best of luck. Sally
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re: Advice for packing a large collection to ship across the country
Peter,
You may have already thought of this, but you may wish to take a few albums or pages with you personally. If I were shipping my entire stamp collection across the country I would probably take the first binder of definitives, the first binder of commemoratives, the airmail binder and the BOB binder with me personally. I would also pull the Legends of the West error sheet from binder 6. At the very least I would pull the pages for the Columbus stamps, Trans-Mississippi, White Plains Souv. sheet, Legends error, Zeppelins, and State Department Officials to take with the first 20 pages or so of the first definitive album. That would all fit in a single binder.
Lars
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re: Advice for packing a large collection to ship across the country
Never mind. Looks like that's already been discussed. If I left anything in the car it would be in the trunk, and I would ALWAYS take the most valuable stuff with me to the room each night but lock in the trunk when I left the room (e.g. going to breakfast). Try to make your car a very unattractive target by not leaving anything in view (like a radar detector or GPS) and park under a light if possible. If they don't break in in the first place they won't accidentally stumble upon the goodies!
Lars
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12:34:56pm
re: Advice for packing a large collection to ship across the country
Thanks Lars; you've reinforced what I thought I should do, in terms of bringing the more treasured of the collection with me. Maybe I can get Coco dog to lug it around in a little back pack? Just kidding!!!
That may be one advantage of the Saturn with its locked trunk versus the Subaru Outback, which is a wagon and has a more open trunk/storage area.
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re: Advice for packing a large collection to ship across the country
the outback wagon has a cover that conceals what's in there. incidentally, consider the legacy, which is the lower priced, lower sitting car of the same make. contact me privately if you want to chat Subarus, which have graced our gravel for 15 years without break.
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01:40:48pm
re: Advice for packing a large collection to ship across the country
Thanks Dave; didn't even think of the Legacy.
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re: Advice for packing a large collection to ship across the country
I have used the cover for the cargo area in the Outback several times. It does conceal things nicely. Under the floor in the back is a small area where items can be hidden and you don't even need the cover. You wouldn't be able to keep big albums there, but boxes of coins or something small would fit. If you are serious about a new car, you should test out several Subaru models; each has something good to offer. (I do not work for Subaru, haha)...
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08:16:39am
re: Advice for packing a large collection to ship across the country
Sally, that's a good suggestion; there are about four Subaru dealers not far from me in metro Atlanta, but unfortunately they have limited stock of Legacy and some better equipped Outbacks.
What do you think of the Forester?
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re: Advice for packing a large collection to ship across the country
Well, I don't think it rides as nicely as an Outback but am probably biased. Forestors are a little less expensive. If you have back problems, the newer Outbacks have such good lumbar support in the driver's seat that I don't even need to use the little back support thingy that I have to use in our 2006. Outback owners tend to be fiercely loyal - once you have one, you don't want anything else. We have a good friend who finally traded in his first Outback once it hit 328,000 miles. He only got a new one because the interior was too worn out, it still ran great. Feel free to email me if you want more information.....Sally
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