Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
06:51:50pm
As to technique, I usually place the dry stamp face down in my watermark tray (a black ceramic ashtray swiped from the Hotel Montleone in New Orleans 40 years ago - don't worry, statute of limitations has long passed, and I have reformed since then). Often, you can see the watermark without the use of fluid. If that doesn't work, I put a couple drops of fluid on the stamps, then more, if necessary until I can see the watermark.
You might get a kick out of watching this video on detecting watermarks (this guy must run through a LOT of fluid): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkGjeP_XSdQ
BTW, YouTube has videos on many aspects of stamp collecting. Just use the YouTube search box.
Login to Like
this post
have discussed this subject many times over many years, have used lighter fluid as
wm detector for 50 years. Asked Francis Ferguson, the current president of the FSDA
(Florida Stamp Dealers Association,),about it, he recommended it over wm. fluid.
At $13.00 a bottle for wm. fluid., lighter fluid is great. I also use lighter fluid
to remove self-adhesive stamps (discussed at least in several places on the discussion board, I believe they are still here, anyway). actually, my last bottle of lighter fluid burnt up in the fire and am using an old small bottle of VCR tape cleaner I found in a box of stuff as wm fluid at the present time.
Login to Like
this post
04:00:38pm
I have also taken part in several discussions here and elsewhere and explained that I have used purified rubbing alcohol, which costs $1.50 or so at the local supermarket in the first aid or baby safety products aisle.It also worked great for the new self adhesive stamps although it is necessary to use the sharp tongs/tweezers to work between the stamp and the paper.
The last time I recall discussing using rubbing alcohol I posted the following;
".... Removing self adhesive stamps from letters, paper.
Now as to the United Kingdom's attempt to defeat people who reuse stamps skips that they negligently failed to cancel in the first place, and drive honest collectors who have been diligently assembling postally used collections of British stamps for most of their lives totally crazy and into occasional bursts of tears;
*** Yes, they can be removed. ***
First some history.
Over the years the Royal Mail's converted Wheat Harvesters that are used to chip, scrape, scratch, tear and sometimes accidentally apply cancellations to envelopes placed in their care seemed to have been completely missing a very high percentage of the stamps that were applied to pay the postage. Actually, skips were so common that a cottage industry developed with folks soaking skips, assembling them into bundles by the hundred and blatantly advertising used, uncancelled stamps on sites such as eBay. Of course, some sellers were mature enough to not say for re-use and sometimes mentioned that these uncancelled lots were ideal for specialists to use to study recent used issues. Yes, and there is this bridge in Brooklyn that I have for sale ......
So RM reacted by using a sticky stuff, a direct descendent of the original "glutinous mix" proposed by Roland Hill a hundred and sixty years ago, that did not dissolve readily in water and then to be sure that stopped the cleaning for reuse process, began to place these "U" and inverted "U" shaped die cuts in pairs on both sides of the Queen's head that look like paper clips had inadvertently gotten onto the paper during the printing process.
Fooling around with these stamps carelessly in water will result in a damaged stamp and should have prevented those folks who were cleaning and reselling stamps to be reused, despite the fact that that activity is illegal in both the UK, the USA and also Canada. ..."
" .... Now for the good news.
They can be removed as can most US and even the Aussie's sticky stamps. But it does take some time, some practice and always some careful handling.
First you need a suitable work space that is well ventilated.
I use small bottles of inexpensive Rubbing Alcohol (Isopropyl Alcohol) available at pharmacies and supermarkets through out the USA. Some collectors use lighter fluid but I feel safer with the Rubbing Alcohol. I understand that in Great Britain is goes under a name like "Spirit soap" or something, but the technical name is the same.
I happen to have an eight inch square black marble block that I salvaged from a broken lamp years ago which is great for the job. Otherwise select something, such as a small watermark tray, that will not be ruined over time by the alcohol soaking into the finish.
I also have about six different stamp tongs nearby to use for different purposes. My favorites for handling stamps are very sharply pointed and in fact are called "Lethal# 908" which probably refers to the occasional collector who decided to scratch his or her nose while still absently holding these tongs. (Glasses are a good investment after all !) ...."
" .... Tongs, Showgard image
Of course I have some safer spade tips and round tips, even one old mangled tip that I proffer to the grand kids to use to do unspeakable things to tiny screws and little dolls that need repair.
But for this process I prefer the tiny ends to get the stamps loose.
I spray the Rubbing Alcohol on the front and reverse of the stamp on paper and give it a minute or two to work in. Then with the stamp face up I start to work the tip under one of the corners, usually the top away from those nasty die cuts. Once the tip is a tiny bit under the top of the stamp it can usually be slid from side to side, along the top till the stamp is almost half clear. At this point comes the tricky part, I begin to slip the tip of the tongs along one edge or the other, sometimes both sides one after another, up and down the side, still being careful not to get too close to the "U" shaped die cuts.
Finally I select one side and place the tip along the loosened edge about midway between the "U" and its inverted brother and work my way in and then up or down to loosen the area of the die cuts from the middle out.
Once one side is loose, the other has to be worked also.
Then, of course, the loose alcohol soaked stamp can be placed face down on the classified section of an old newspaper to dry.
Now sometimes the stick-um is still there and so I have an old wide bottle cap with a shot of talcum powder (Johnson & Johnson's works well) in it handy so that a little dab can be placed somewhere convenient and the dried stamp can be brushed though the little trace of talcum so that the gum molecules becomes too busy playing with the talcum to be a further problem.
Now there is one more complication. With some of the stickies (Not the British Machins so much) you will notice when you have the stamp face down that the gum has remained in a layer on the back of the stamp despite the use of the solvent. This can usually be tugged gently with the tip of the tongs and once a bit is pulled back the rest can be rolled back much like you would roll up a rug in a room. Unfortunately with some of these beasties a layer of the paper stays with the gum which makes the stamp that remains quite thin and even more delicate. Again, with care collectable used stamps can be salvaged although the stamp will have become a bit thinner.
A final note. There are some stamps, notably a few definitives of Brazil and France as well as some other nations that simply cannot be soaked and are best used in the back yard stuck to a target board at about 15 yards.
I have been collecting the Machins since their inception 45 years ago. I have spent the most time trying to acquire examples for my specialty album and so far, despite the extra work these "U" shaped die cuts have caused I have been successful. But if you are ready to try the steps that I have been attempting to describe, start with heavily cancelled common junk examples so that you get the procedure down properly before you try it with some beautiful lightly canceled stamp as I am sure that at first you will absolutely destroy the stamp and wind up with one or two oval shaped holes at the sides of the Queen's head as Royal Mail intended.
Once you are able to do that I will be glad to explain about the small mis-spellings and numbers worked into the wavy "Royal Mail" inscription in the background that provides some idea of the source, sheet, booklet, coil, or mini sheetlet and the year of issue. What looks like a simple gold or blue Machin NVI stamp actually may have ten or fifteen minor collectable varieties. (Notice the middle right hand edge the letters circled "MCM" of the Diamond Jubilee stamp I posted where the inscription is part of the word "DIAMOND", misspelled. The stamp came from a counter sheet. That can make these gold. light blue and blue NVI stamps very interesting. .... "
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
Charlie,
Very useful information. You need to publish this in the articles section.
Login to Like
this post
Most rubbing (isopropyl) alcohol is 70-95% pure, meaning it contains 5-30% water. While it may be a useful alternative to Ronsonol in identifying watermarks on used stamps, I would caution against its use on unused stamps with water-soluble gum.
Login to Like
this post
01:37:40pm
Once I have washed the gum off unused stamps the rubbing alcohol works fine.
Login to Like
this post
Agreed. With the rubbing alcohol, you can probably save yourself some time by checking for watermarks and washing the gum off at the same time.
Login to Like
this post
I don't play with watermarks, so this is an unenlightened question: Why not just use water?
Login to Like
this post
This is going to sound crazy, but the chemical composition of water makes it too think to penetrate the paper fibers to reveal the watermark.
The watermark on a large number of watermarked stamps can be easily seen by either placing it face down on a black background, or holding it facing towards a light.
Login to Like
this post
Also, watermark and other fluids evaporate within seconds, so you don't have to hassle with waiting for your stamps to dry before storing them.
Tedski
Login to Like
this post
They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
11 Feb 2013
06:51:50pm
At a local stamp club meeting I was caught by surprise when I mentioned using lighter fluid for detecting watremarks (good ol' reliable Ronsonol). About half the members had never heard of such a thing! Mostly, however, I use Prinz watermark detector because it dries much faster (and there is that fire thing).
As to technique, I usually place the dry stamp face down in my watermark tray (a black ceramic ashtray swiped from the Hotel Montleone in New Orleans 40 years ago - don't worry, statute of limitations has long passed, and I have reformed since then). Often, you can see the watermark without the use of fluid. If that doesn't work, I put a couple drops of fluid on the stamps, then more, if necessary until I can see the watermark.
You might get a kick out of watching this video on detecting watermarks (this guy must run through a LOT of fluid): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkGjeP_XSdQ
BTW, YouTube has videos on many aspects of stamp collecting. Just use the YouTube search box.
Login to Like
this post
Auctions - Approvals
re: Watermarks - techniques and materials
have discussed this subject many times over many years, have used lighter fluid as
wm detector for 50 years. Asked Francis Ferguson, the current president of the FSDA
(Florida Stamp Dealers Association,),about it, he recommended it over wm. fluid.
At $13.00 a bottle for wm. fluid., lighter fluid is great. I also use lighter fluid
to remove self-adhesive stamps (discussed at least in several places on the discussion board, I believe they are still here, anyway). actually, my last bottle of lighter fluid burnt up in the fire and am using an old small bottle of VCR tape cleaner I found in a box of stuff as wm fluid at the present time.
Login to Like
this post
Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
13 Feb 2013
04:00:38pm
re: Watermarks - techniques and materials
I have also taken part in several discussions here and elsewhere and explained that I have used purified rubbing alcohol, which costs $1.50 or so at the local supermarket in the first aid or baby safety products aisle.It also worked great for the new self adhesive stamps although it is necessary to use the sharp tongs/tweezers to work between the stamp and the paper.
The last time I recall discussing using rubbing alcohol I posted the following;
".... Removing self adhesive stamps from letters, paper.
Now as to the United Kingdom's attempt to defeat people who reuse stamps skips that they negligently failed to cancel in the first place, and drive honest collectors who have been diligently assembling postally used collections of British stamps for most of their lives totally crazy and into occasional bursts of tears;
*** Yes, they can be removed. ***
First some history.
Over the years the Royal Mail's converted Wheat Harvesters that are used to chip, scrape, scratch, tear and sometimes accidentally apply cancellations to envelopes placed in their care seemed to have been completely missing a very high percentage of the stamps that were applied to pay the postage. Actually, skips were so common that a cottage industry developed with folks soaking skips, assembling them into bundles by the hundred and blatantly advertising used, uncancelled stamps on sites such as eBay. Of course, some sellers were mature enough to not say for re-use and sometimes mentioned that these uncancelled lots were ideal for specialists to use to study recent used issues. Yes, and there is this bridge in Brooklyn that I have for sale ......
So RM reacted by using a sticky stuff, a direct descendent of the original "glutinous mix" proposed by Roland Hill a hundred and sixty years ago, that did not dissolve readily in water and then to be sure that stopped the cleaning for reuse process, began to place these "U" and inverted "U" shaped die cuts in pairs on both sides of the Queen's head that look like paper clips had inadvertently gotten onto the paper during the printing process.
Fooling around with these stamps carelessly in water will result in a damaged stamp and should have prevented those folks who were cleaning and reselling stamps to be reused, despite the fact that that activity is illegal in both the UK, the USA and also Canada. ..."
" .... Now for the good news.
They can be removed as can most US and even the Aussie's sticky stamps. But it does take some time, some practice and always some careful handling.
First you need a suitable work space that is well ventilated.
I use small bottles of inexpensive Rubbing Alcohol (Isopropyl Alcohol) available at pharmacies and supermarkets through out the USA. Some collectors use lighter fluid but I feel safer with the Rubbing Alcohol. I understand that in Great Britain is goes under a name like "Spirit soap" or something, but the technical name is the same.
I happen to have an eight inch square black marble block that I salvaged from a broken lamp years ago which is great for the job. Otherwise select something, such as a small watermark tray, that will not be ruined over time by the alcohol soaking into the finish.
I also have about six different stamp tongs nearby to use for different purposes. My favorites for handling stamps are very sharply pointed and in fact are called "Lethal# 908" which probably refers to the occasional collector who decided to scratch his or her nose while still absently holding these tongs. (Glasses are a good investment after all !) ...."
" .... Tongs, Showgard image
Of course I have some safer spade tips and round tips, even one old mangled tip that I proffer to the grand kids to use to do unspeakable things to tiny screws and little dolls that need repair.
But for this process I prefer the tiny ends to get the stamps loose.
I spray the Rubbing Alcohol on the front and reverse of the stamp on paper and give it a minute or two to work in. Then with the stamp face up I start to work the tip under one of the corners, usually the top away from those nasty die cuts. Once the tip is a tiny bit under the top of the stamp it can usually be slid from side to side, along the top till the stamp is almost half clear. At this point comes the tricky part, I begin to slip the tip of the tongs along one edge or the other, sometimes both sides one after another, up and down the side, still being careful not to get too close to the "U" shaped die cuts.
Finally I select one side and place the tip along the loosened edge about midway between the "U" and its inverted brother and work my way in and then up or down to loosen the area of the die cuts from the middle out.
Once one side is loose, the other has to be worked also.
Then, of course, the loose alcohol soaked stamp can be placed face down on the classified section of an old newspaper to dry.
Now sometimes the stick-um is still there and so I have an old wide bottle cap with a shot of talcum powder (Johnson & Johnson's works well) in it handy so that a little dab can be placed somewhere convenient and the dried stamp can be brushed though the little trace of talcum so that the gum molecules becomes too busy playing with the talcum to be a further problem.
Now there is one more complication. With some of the stickies (Not the British Machins so much) you will notice when you have the stamp face down that the gum has remained in a layer on the back of the stamp despite the use of the solvent. This can usually be tugged gently with the tip of the tongs and once a bit is pulled back the rest can be rolled back much like you would roll up a rug in a room. Unfortunately with some of these beasties a layer of the paper stays with the gum which makes the stamp that remains quite thin and even more delicate. Again, with care collectable used stamps can be salvaged although the stamp will have become a bit thinner.
A final note. There are some stamps, notably a few definitives of Brazil and France as well as some other nations that simply cannot be soaked and are best used in the back yard stuck to a target board at about 15 yards.
I have been collecting the Machins since their inception 45 years ago. I have spent the most time trying to acquire examples for my specialty album and so far, despite the extra work these "U" shaped die cuts have caused I have been successful. But if you are ready to try the steps that I have been attempting to describe, start with heavily cancelled common junk examples so that you get the procedure down properly before you try it with some beautiful lightly canceled stamp as I am sure that at first you will absolutely destroy the stamp and wind up with one or two oval shaped holes at the sides of the Queen's head as Royal Mail intended.
Once you are able to do that I will be glad to explain about the small mis-spellings and numbers worked into the wavy "Royal Mail" inscription in the background that provides some idea of the source, sheet, booklet, coil, or mini sheetlet and the year of issue. What looks like a simple gold or blue Machin NVI stamp actually may have ten or fifteen minor collectable varieties. (Notice the middle right hand edge the letters circled "MCM" of the Diamond Jubilee stamp I posted where the inscription is part of the word "DIAMOND", misspelled. The stamp came from a counter sheet. That can make these gold. light blue and blue NVI stamps very interesting. .... "
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
re: Watermarks - techniques and materials
Charlie,
Very useful information. You need to publish this in the articles section.
Login to Like
this post
re: Watermarks - techniques and materials
Most rubbing (isopropyl) alcohol is 70-95% pure, meaning it contains 5-30% water. While it may be a useful alternative to Ronsonol in identifying watermarks on used stamps, I would caution against its use on unused stamps with water-soluble gum.
Login to Like
this post
Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
14 Feb 2013
01:37:40pm
re: Watermarks - techniques and materials
Once I have washed the gum off unused stamps the rubbing alcohol works fine.
Login to Like
this post
re: Watermarks - techniques and materials
Agreed. With the rubbing alcohol, you can probably save yourself some time by checking for watermarks and washing the gum off at the same time.
Login to Like
this post
Dogs are my favorite people. I hang with this one as often as I can.
20 Jun 2013
08:58:26pm
re: Watermarks - techniques and materials
I don't play with watermarks, so this is an unenlightened question: Why not just use water?
Login to Like
this post
02:41:51am
re: Watermarks - techniques and materials
This is going to sound crazy, but the chemical composition of water makes it too think to penetrate the paper fibers to reveal the watermark.
The watermark on a large number of watermarked stamps can be easily seen by either placing it face down on a black background, or holding it facing towards a light.
Login to Like
this post
re: Watermarks - techniques and materials
Also, watermark and other fluids evaporate within seconds, so you don't have to hassle with waiting for your stamps to dry before storing them.
Tedski
Login to Like
this post