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Europe/Other : Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

 

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Rhinelander
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02 Feb 2013
08:18:57pm
Not really a "discussion topic." I guess I am just showing these off ... it is an inexpensive fun country to collect.

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etc. That's it up to 1918.

Here the "BOB" postage dues. You really don't see these very often:

Image Not Found
Image Not Found

Alright, hope you enjoyed the show. I think it always makes a huge difference to see the actual stamps as opposed to just the illustrations in the catalog. Especially with Scott not even picturing all stamps. Of course, the above are organized pretty much following Michel (not too much of a difference to Scott).


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02 Feb 2013
09:03:06pm
re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

Beautiful stamps

Did you do the write-ups too? I like the chronological explanations of the sets.

Kelly

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alyn
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02 Feb 2013
09:32:36pm
re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

Arno,

Those are great pages, are they your work?

Alyn

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dani20
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02 Feb 2013
10:51:32pm
re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

A lovely presentation, and you are entitled to bragging rights. How did you manage to get all those posted on the board?
Dan C.

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tuscany4me
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03 Feb 2013
09:17:20am
re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

Colorful set.. Very nice

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rickben2
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03 Feb 2013
10:10:39am
re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

Great looking pages. I especially liked the care taken in using only stamps with non-obliterating cancels. Thanks for sharing.

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Zipper
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04 Feb 2013
03:34:22am
re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

Hi,

I have a bunch of Bulgarian stamps that you can have if you want them. Don't know when they were issued, but they're not new.

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Rhinelander
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04 Feb 2013
09:46:51pm
re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

Thanks to all for your friendly comments. I had some other priority projects on my plate, so excuse the brief delay in responding to your messages.

@ Kelly / Alyn: No, I did not create the pages. The manufacturer of the pages is Behrens, who sold these under the name "Das sprechende Behrens Album," that is "The talking Behrens Album." I only have a few of these and like them quite a bit. The company went out of business in 1980. Most of my stamps are in stockbooks and varios. I also have some Lighthouse hingeless. I am not into making my own pages.

@ Dan: There is a box "Upload Image" under the area where you type your message. Click it and add an image to your messgae. Click it again and upload another one etc. Real easy. The real work is scanning the item (but even that really is not bad once you figure out what the best settings are for your scanner).

@ Rick: Thanks for noting. I collect a good number of countries. Probably too many, given that I also collect a good number of postmarks (and some postal history). So, my way to keep it "limited" is that I only collect used stamps -- I do not have any "mixed" collections -- and generally stick to vf condition (xf if I can find them). As a result, many of my collections are "slow growing."

@ Clayton: Thank you.

@ Sharyn: Thank you for your kind offer. I have the country complete to the point where I want to collect it. The two missing postage dues I actually also have. I just need to mount them yet. I never noticed (? -- how is that possible?) that I had them on a stock card at the end of the album, and not at their right place. I just hadn't looked at my Bulgaria in a long time ...

Arno

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lpayette
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04 Feb 2013
10:32:12pm
re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

Very nice
lee

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Rhinelander
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04 Feb 2013
10:40:10pm
re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

Postscript:

I believe I now remember why I did not put the J2 and J3 in their place; I believe I had doubts that they might be fake. J1-J3 with their very uncommon large lozenge perforation can be manufactured from the more common imperf. varieties J4-6. See scan.

Image Not Found

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DRYER
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The past is a foreign country, they do things different there.

04 Feb 2013
11:37:50pm
re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

Arno:

Your stamps are as intriguing as Romania, the self-seen Christian bulwark of SE Europe against Islam.

A possession of Turkey for centuries, a former ally of Germany, neighbour/friend/enemy of Greece and Romania, sympathetic to Macedonia, greatly desired by Russia, an inseparable component of the Balkans, and with Croatian, Serbian, Herzegovinian, Armenian and heaven knows what other DNA wandering in its bloodstream, it is little wonder this small country paints such a broad canvas with its postage stamps.

Although we are at opposite ends of the stamp-collecting spectrum, Arno ("good enough" vs "perfect") I thank you for your formidable presentation.

John Derry

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lisagrant87
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04 Feb 2013
11:45:32pm
re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

How would you be able to tell if the lozenge perforations were faked or real? Is there a measurement you can do to identify fakes?

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youpiao
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05 Feb 2013
03:24:30pm
re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

Nice presentation Arno. I also like those pages. I think there's a lot to be said for this layout over the standard centered-in-the-page style.

Tedski

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cdj1122
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05 Feb 2013
04:05:23pm
re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

" .... I never noticed (? -- how is that possible?) that I had them on a stock card at the end of the album, and not at their right place. I just hadn't looked at my Bulgaria in a long time ...."
This happens to me all the time. I am often delighted to find something I set side due to the pressures of the moment only to discover the items all over again as if it was something new.

RE: The re-perfing possibility. I am sure that you noticed that the perfs are not parallel with the image edge. But that may be common with known genuine examples.


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lisagrant87
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05 Feb 2013
06:22:35pm
re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

Charlie - Is the misalignment of the perfs what may cause one to believe it's a fake? How do you know it's genuine?

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lisagrant87
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It is during our darkest moments that we must focus to see the light. - Aristotle Onassis

05 Feb 2013
10:20:34pm
re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

I have done some research on lozenge rouletting and perfs. There is almost no information available about a lozenge perf. A lozenge roulette is mentioned but was only used in Madiera. Is there another name for the perfs on the Bulgaria stamps? And, I ask again, how can you tell if they have been faked or not?

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CapeStampMan
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Mike

05 Feb 2013
11:43:17pm
re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

That's funny, Lisa, I was just researching that same thing a few minutes ago, with out much sucess I might add. There is all kinds of info about the watermark and varnish, but not much about the perfs.

Mike

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Rhinelander
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05 Feb 2013
11:45:35pm
re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

@ John: Yes. Romania is an interesting country, too. I have an early development stage collection. I find it much more difficult to collect than Bulgaria.

@ tedski: I agree, I do have some Lighthouse albums, which I also like, but the symmetrical layout at times can be a little boring.

@ Charlie: I think I am not seeing it.

@ Lisa: Detecting fabricated perforations in this particular issue is not easy at all. If it was, I had it long decided. The existence of forgeries of J1-J3 made from J4-J6 is noted in the catalog; the imperforated issue has enormous margins; the perforated issue is line perforated, which is easier to fake than any other perforation, and the genuine perforation actually varies from 5 1/2 to 6 1/2 (according to Scott), and even more pronounced from 4 3/4 and 7 1/2 according to Michel. With so much slack for the forger, you just have to have your guards up. Beyond that, I can't even say now what made me suspicious about them at the time and why I did not put them in the album. So, I probably just put them in now and let my heirs worry about it.


@ Lisa / Mike: Yes. it is an uncommon separation method. Essentially the perforation needles must have been diamond shaped, instead of round, and pretty large, too. Because paper was actually removed with a strike of the perforation knife, it is perforation, and not rouletting.

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cdj1122
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06 Feb 2013
11:07:57am
re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

" ... Charlie: I think I am not seeing it. ..."

I am using the terms Peaks and Valleys to describe the components of the separation . I was looking closely at the distance between the valleys and the edge of the design.

Top edge of the 5 stotinki;
The first valley on the left seems closer than the last on the right to the edge of the design.
Along the bottom a similar difference, the left most valley looks closer than the last at the right. If both the right most are further apart than the leftmost it would indicate that the perpetrator alignments were not parallel.

On the 25 stotinki the difference along the left edge is more noticeable, at least to me,with the top valley significantly further than the bottom.

The 50 s value seems even.
Someone would have to be an expert with known genuine examples to decide if the differences are important enough especially considering the primitive printing and separation methods 130 years ago. It may be that slightly non-parallel perforation axes (Axises ???) is normal for the issue.



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lisagrant87
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06 Feb 2013
05:29:52pm
re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

Thank you Mike and Arno for your comments. I think it's odd just how little is written about this interesting perf. If anyone has any new information, please feel free to share!

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Rhinelander
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06 Feb 2013
09:33:10pm
re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

Charlie: Yes. I never paid attention to it, but now I see what you mean. I agree that it really depends on the production process if there is any significance to this variation or not. I am actually not overly concerned that the stamps shown are fakes (now). I just wanted to show the two missing stamps on the page above and speculated why they were not included. I had not looked closely at the album for perhaps ten years.

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ramanandn

07 Feb 2013
02:45:48pm
re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

Beautiful stamp issues. I've been looking for a relatively inexpensive country to collect. Looks like Bulgaria is an option as well along with some South/Central American countries.

Cheers
Ram

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Rhinelander
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21 Jun 2013
05:49:49pm
re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

I would like to retract my comment on the difficulty of detecting fabricated lozenge perforation of Bulgaria J1-3 from the imperforated varieties J4-6 and thereby also correct my answer to Lisa's question. Upon giving it some thought: It is actually not that difficult and only requires a good magnifying glass.

First off, it is correct that the imperforated varieties have wide margins and it is also correct that because legitimate copies exist with perfs 5 and 7 (rounding the difference between the Scott and Michel catalogs), "scissor artists" may have it fairly easy to fake the odd perforation of J1-3. However, here is the key -- and I apologize for not thinking clearly about this earlier: While lozenge shaped paper bits are removed between two adjacent stamps, the stamps will still be attached with connecting paper bridges. The stamps are perforated, not rouletted. Perforating means some material is removed in between stamps so that the stamps can be easily separated by ripping the remaining paper connectors. Accordingly, original stamps must show evidence of ripping at the tip ("peak" in Charlie's terms) of the perfs. If I put a perforating knife, or a pair of scissors, to an imperforated stamp, the peaks that are created will still be "cut straight" without evidence of ripped fibers. Obviously, a determined forger could rework the tips of the perforation to improve the result, but still this is where the fabrication should show.

Arno

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smaier
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Sally

21 Jun 2013
06:00:19pm
re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

So have you determined if yours are real?

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Rhinelander
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21 Jun 2013
06:27:25pm
re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

Yes, I think so, to the best of my ability.

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smaier
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Sally

21 Jun 2013
06:38:01pm
re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

That's great. Really nice presentation, thanks for sharing.

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DRYER
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The past is a foreign country, they do things different there.

21 Jun 2013
07:03:24pm
re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

You're on top of your game here, Arno. Not all of our members are quick
to retract their comments publicly.

Admired your presentation.

John Derry

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Rhinelander

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02 Feb 2013
08:18:57pm

Not really a "discussion topic." I guess I am just showing these off ... it is an inexpensive fun country to collect.

Image Not Found
Image Not Found
Image Not Found
Image Not Found
Image Not Found
Image Not Found

etc. That's it up to 1918.

Here the "BOB" postage dues. You really don't see these very often:

Image Not Found
Image Not Found

Alright, hope you enjoyed the show. I think it always makes a huge difference to see the actual stamps as opposed to just the illustrations in the catalog. Especially with Scott not even picturing all stamps. Of course, the above are organized pretty much following Michel (not too much of a difference to Scott).


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02 Feb 2013
09:03:06pm

re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

Beautiful stamps

Did you do the write-ups too? I like the chronological explanations of the sets.

Kelly

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02 Feb 2013
09:32:36pm

re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

Arno,

Those are great pages, are they your work?

Alyn

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dani20

02 Feb 2013
10:51:32pm

re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

A lovely presentation, and you are entitled to bragging rights. How did you manage to get all those posted on the board?
Dan C.

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tuscany4me

03 Feb 2013
09:17:20am

re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

Colorful set.. Very nice

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rickben2

03 Feb 2013
10:10:39am

re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

Great looking pages. I especially liked the care taken in using only stamps with non-obliterating cancels. Thanks for sharing.

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04 Feb 2013
03:34:22am

re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

Hi,

I have a bunch of Bulgarian stamps that you can have if you want them. Don't know when they were issued, but they're not new.

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Rhinelander

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04 Feb 2013
09:46:51pm

re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

Thanks to all for your friendly comments. I had some other priority projects on my plate, so excuse the brief delay in responding to your messages.

@ Kelly / Alyn: No, I did not create the pages. The manufacturer of the pages is Behrens, who sold these under the name "Das sprechende Behrens Album," that is "The talking Behrens Album." I only have a few of these and like them quite a bit. The company went out of business in 1980. Most of my stamps are in stockbooks and varios. I also have some Lighthouse hingeless. I am not into making my own pages.

@ Dan: There is a box "Upload Image" under the area where you type your message. Click it and add an image to your messgae. Click it again and upload another one etc. Real easy. The real work is scanning the item (but even that really is not bad once you figure out what the best settings are for your scanner).

@ Rick: Thanks for noting. I collect a good number of countries. Probably too many, given that I also collect a good number of postmarks (and some postal history). So, my way to keep it "limited" is that I only collect used stamps -- I do not have any "mixed" collections -- and generally stick to vf condition (xf if I can find them). As a result, many of my collections are "slow growing."

@ Clayton: Thank you.

@ Sharyn: Thank you for your kind offer. I have the country complete to the point where I want to collect it. The two missing postage dues I actually also have. I just need to mount them yet. I never noticed (? -- how is that possible?) that I had them on a stock card at the end of the album, and not at their right place. I just hadn't looked at my Bulgaria in a long time ...

Arno

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lpayette

04 Feb 2013
10:32:12pm

re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

Very nice
lee

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Rhinelander

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04 Feb 2013
10:40:10pm

re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

Postscript:

I believe I now remember why I did not put the J2 and J3 in their place; I believe I had doubts that they might be fake. J1-J3 with their very uncommon large lozenge perforation can be manufactured from the more common imperf. varieties J4-6. See scan.

Image Not Found

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The past is a foreign country, they do things different there.
04 Feb 2013
11:37:50pm

re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

Arno:

Your stamps are as intriguing as Romania, the self-seen Christian bulwark of SE Europe against Islam.

A possession of Turkey for centuries, a former ally of Germany, neighbour/friend/enemy of Greece and Romania, sympathetic to Macedonia, greatly desired by Russia, an inseparable component of the Balkans, and with Croatian, Serbian, Herzegovinian, Armenian and heaven knows what other DNA wandering in its bloodstream, it is little wonder this small country paints such a broad canvas with its postage stamps.

Although we are at opposite ends of the stamp-collecting spectrum, Arno ("good enough" vs "perfect") I thank you for your formidable presentation.

John Derry

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04 Feb 2013
11:45:32pm

re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

How would you be able to tell if the lozenge perforations were faked or real? Is there a measurement you can do to identify fakes?

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youpiao

05 Feb 2013
03:24:30pm

re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

Nice presentation Arno. I also like those pages. I think there's a lot to be said for this layout over the standard centered-in-the-page style.

Tedski

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"Ekki-Ekki-Ekki-Ekki-PTANG. Zoom-Boing. Z'nourrwringmm"

Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
05 Feb 2013
04:05:23pm

re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

" .... I never noticed (? -- how is that possible?) that I had them on a stock card at the end of the album, and not at their right place. I just hadn't looked at my Bulgaria in a long time ...."
This happens to me all the time. I am often delighted to find something I set side due to the pressures of the moment only to discover the items all over again as if it was something new.

RE: The re-perfing possibility. I am sure that you noticed that the perfs are not parallel with the image edge. But that may be common with known genuine examples.


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".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "

It is during our darkest moments that we must focus to see the light. - Aristotle Onassis
05 Feb 2013
06:22:35pm

re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

Charlie - Is the misalignment of the perfs what may cause one to believe it's a fake? How do you know it's genuine?

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"I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel. - Maya Angelou"

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It is during our darkest moments that we must focus to see the light. - Aristotle Onassis
05 Feb 2013
10:20:34pm

re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

I have done some research on lozenge rouletting and perfs. There is almost no information available about a lozenge perf. A lozenge roulette is mentioned but was only used in Madiera. Is there another name for the perfs on the Bulgaria stamps? And, I ask again, how can you tell if they have been faked or not?

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Mike
05 Feb 2013
11:43:17pm

re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

That's funny, Lisa, I was just researching that same thing a few minutes ago, with out much sucess I might add. There is all kinds of info about the watermark and varnish, but not much about the perfs.

Mike

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Rhinelander

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05 Feb 2013
11:45:35pm

re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

@ John: Yes. Romania is an interesting country, too. I have an early development stage collection. I find it much more difficult to collect than Bulgaria.

@ tedski: I agree, I do have some Lighthouse albums, which I also like, but the symmetrical layout at times can be a little boring.

@ Charlie: I think I am not seeing it.

@ Lisa: Detecting fabricated perforations in this particular issue is not easy at all. If it was, I had it long decided. The existence of forgeries of J1-J3 made from J4-J6 is noted in the catalog; the imperforated issue has enormous margins; the perforated issue is line perforated, which is easier to fake than any other perforation, and the genuine perforation actually varies from 5 1/2 to 6 1/2 (according to Scott), and even more pronounced from 4 3/4 and 7 1/2 according to Michel. With so much slack for the forger, you just have to have your guards up. Beyond that, I can't even say now what made me suspicious about them at the time and why I did not put them in the album. So, I probably just put them in now and let my heirs worry about it.


@ Lisa / Mike: Yes. it is an uncommon separation method. Essentially the perforation needles must have been diamond shaped, instead of round, and pretty large, too. Because paper was actually removed with a strike of the perforation knife, it is perforation, and not rouletting.

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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
06 Feb 2013
11:07:57am

re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

" ... Charlie: I think I am not seeing it. ..."

I am using the terms Peaks and Valleys to describe the components of the separation . I was looking closely at the distance between the valleys and the edge of the design.

Top edge of the 5 stotinki;
The first valley on the left seems closer than the last on the right to the edge of the design.
Along the bottom a similar difference, the left most valley looks closer than the last at the right. If both the right most are further apart than the leftmost it would indicate that the perpetrator alignments were not parallel.

On the 25 stotinki the difference along the left edge is more noticeable, at least to me,with the top valley significantly further than the bottom.

The 50 s value seems even.
Someone would have to be an expert with known genuine examples to decide if the differences are important enough especially considering the primitive printing and separation methods 130 years ago. It may be that slightly non-parallel perforation axes (Axises ???) is normal for the issue.



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".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "

It is during our darkest moments that we must focus to see the light. - Aristotle Onassis
06 Feb 2013
05:29:52pm

re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

Thank you Mike and Arno for your comments. I think it's odd just how little is written about this interesting perf. If anyone has any new information, please feel free to share!

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"I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel. - Maya Angelou"

lisaslunacy.com
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Rhinelander

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06 Feb 2013
09:33:10pm

re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

Charlie: Yes. I never paid attention to it, but now I see what you mean. I agree that it really depends on the production process if there is any significance to this variation or not. I am actually not overly concerned that the stamps shown are fakes (now). I just wanted to show the two missing stamps on the page above and speculated why they were not included. I had not looked closely at the album for perhaps ten years.

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ramanandn

07 Feb 2013
02:45:48pm

re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

Beautiful stamp issues. I've been looking for a relatively inexpensive country to collect. Looks like Bulgaria is an option as well along with some South/Central American countries.

Cheers
Ram

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Rhinelander

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21 Jun 2013
05:49:49pm

re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

I would like to retract my comment on the difficulty of detecting fabricated lozenge perforation of Bulgaria J1-3 from the imperforated varieties J4-6 and thereby also correct my answer to Lisa's question. Upon giving it some thought: It is actually not that difficult and only requires a good magnifying glass.

First off, it is correct that the imperforated varieties have wide margins and it is also correct that because legitimate copies exist with perfs 5 and 7 (rounding the difference between the Scott and Michel catalogs), "scissor artists" may have it fairly easy to fake the odd perforation of J1-3. However, here is the key -- and I apologize for not thinking clearly about this earlier: While lozenge shaped paper bits are removed between two adjacent stamps, the stamps will still be attached with connecting paper bridges. The stamps are perforated, not rouletted. Perforating means some material is removed in between stamps so that the stamps can be easily separated by ripping the remaining paper connectors. Accordingly, original stamps must show evidence of ripping at the tip ("peak" in Charlie's terms) of the perfs. If I put a perforating knife, or a pair of scissors, to an imperforated stamp, the peaks that are created will still be "cut straight" without evidence of ripped fibers. Obviously, a determined forger could rework the tips of the perforation to improve the result, but still this is where the fabrication should show.

Arno

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smaier

Sally
21 Jun 2013
06:00:19pm

re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

So have you determined if yours are real?

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Rhinelander

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21 Jun 2013
06:27:25pm

re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

Yes, I think so, to the best of my ability.

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smaier

Sally
21 Jun 2013
06:38:01pm

re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

That's great. Really nice presentation, thanks for sharing.

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The past is a foreign country, they do things different there.
21 Jun 2013
07:03:24pm

re: Bulgaria 1879 - 1918, showing off

You're on top of your game here, Arno. Not all of our members are quick
to retract their comments publicly.

Admired your presentation.

John Derry

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