Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
I'll appreciate any help with translation into English especially the part written in red ink and posted over the destination address. I assume that it was returned but have hard time to recognize hand written words to translate reason of the return using dictionary.
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The writing in red says where the recipient has moved to because he obviously was transferred to a different regiment.
I cannot read all of it, but it says:
"Zur Bestellung: Amt 15. (?) Empfänger befindet sich bei der Überwachungsstelle VI, A, ... " (It becomes unclear from that point).
So translated that would be something like:
"For delivery: Amt 15. (do not know what that means) The recipient is now assigned to control station / checkpoint VI, A, etc. etc."
The writing on the back is quite easy to read. It is addressed to Sergeant-Major Mucha and says that at two dates a certain amount of money has been paid to a lawyer, mr. N. Igra-Sasnowice. The letter is meant to inform Mr. Mucha of this.
Jan-Simon
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Thank you very much. Now I have some story to attach to this card that makes it more interesting.
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Update:
Just found out that Amt stands for "office" most likely "postamt" = post office 15
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Jan
I am usually pretty good with paleography and can translate German, but you are really awesome. Great work!
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Thank you JLupia,
German cursive script from the period before 1940-something is hard to read, but when you have a good command of the language, plus an introduction into this particular script and paleography as a whole (and patience), it is possible to decipher it. But I must say, it still is a bit of a challenge for me, and everytime I look at it I need some time to get into it. Still, it depends on how it is written and some people just have an illegible hand...
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Jan
Right. Some hands are more difficult to decipher than others. If I may, using your deciphering of the hand it might be read as :
Zur Bestellung: Amt 15. (?) Empfänger befindet sich bei der Überwachungsstelle VI, A, R.(?) bzw. Wissenbergamt,
Translated as :
Forward to Office 18.
The recipient is now assigned to control station / checkpoint VI, A. R. (?) respectively.
Wissenberg {Denmark} Office.
But this is only a guess, which I would not even had an opportunity to make without your initial groundwork. Please feel free to correct it.
Great work Jan!
John
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Hi Marek,
It is a lovely card. Just too state the obvious: registered postcards are not common. The ratio of registered letters to registered postcards can be easily 100:1 (by my estimation). Moreover, the card displays the 7 1/2 Pf postcard rate plus the 20 Pf. registration fee as a mixed franking of the 1915 "Russisch Polen" and the 1916 "Generalgouvernement Warschau" overprinted German occupation issues, which I think is just beautiful.
I have been collecting German and U.S. WWI postal history for several years now with the ultimate goal of matching up correspondence of military units facing each other during the war. Similar to the renewed interest in the Civil War due to its 150th anniversary, I expect a spike in the interest for WWI as we approach its 100th anniversary. I hope to have this exhibit done by 2017 ... it is slow going, though. The project requires tremendous research, not just on the postal history ("rate and routes") aspects, but also the military formations, locations, and movements. Currently, I am not going anywhere and may have to think of a less ambitious project potentially.
The card was mailed Oct. 30, 1916 to a Feldwebel (=Sergeant) Oskar Mucha, at the time Grenadierregiment No. 11, 2nd Ersatz (=replacement) Battallion, Verwundetenkompanie (reconvalescent company).
The Grenadierregiment 11 was a Prussian unit. Formed in 1808, its full title was "Grenadier-Regiment König Friedrich III. (2. Schlesisches (= Silesian)) Nr. 11." In peace times, the unit was garrisoned in Wroclaw, Poland (at the time Breslau, Germany).
The regiment was part of the 22nd Infantry-Brigade, which in turn was part of the 11th Infantry-Division. This Division served on the Western Front for the duration of the war.
The "ersatz" battalion was meant to replenish the unit and primarily consisted of new recruits. As we can infer from the postcard, the replacement battalion of the 11th Grenadierregiment, which was stationed at Neumarkt, Silesia (today’s Środa Śląska in Poland), also included a company of reconvalescent soldiers which apparently were ready for active, albeit not front, duty. In all likelihood, going by the date, Sergeant Mucha was wounded during the horrific battle of the Somme, in which the German 11th Division took part, and was attached to the replacement unit at home while recovering.
When the postcard reached his address, he had already been transferred, and the postcard was forwarded. The forwarding address is most interesting and it is too bad that I am unable to read it. VI. A. K. is the 6th German army corps, but the next two words I cannot read. I agree with Jan's reading of Überwachungsstelle, however. Not to get ahead of myself: I only know this word as part of the monstrous term Postüberwachungsstelle (gotta love those German compound nouns) which means postal censorship office. So, was Sergeant Mucha transferred to the censorship office? Reading mail is certainly a duty a recovering wounded soldier could do ... well, without being able to make out the rest of the address it is just a wild guess.
Collecting postmarks, actually primarily, I also should mention that the German post office at Bendzin, Poland (today: Będzin) began service May 1, 1915 and existed until the end of the war. There were a total of only about 80 German post offices instituted in the occupied Polish territories, usually at the county seats. This is a very collectible number, but once you get your Warsaw, Lodz, and Jablonna's you will find that the going gets really tough. Będzin today has a population of only 58,000, not sure what it was during WWI, but it certainly wasn't a metropolis. Collecting postmarks from smaller towns is always tough and being restricted to a three year window only does not make it any easier. Moreover, several of these German occupation post offices only served German military personnel in their area, the majority, including the one at Będzin, obviously, also served Civilians. Why were there so few? Because the German administration only transported mail between the post offices instituted in towns of size and did not provide for delivery to home addresses. This is where the various Polish local post stamps issued during WWI come into play. These local posts, operated with German permission or toleration, organized the transportation and delivery of mail to smaller nearby towns and home addresses.
Thanks for showing this interesting card,
Arno
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Arno, that is wonderful information!
I have been staring at these hard to read words again, and I think I am a step further, but that does not mean it all becomes clear now.
The forwarding address seems to read as follows: "Ãœberwachungsstelle VI, A, K, Gre.v(d),
Oberbergamt"
The "Gre.v(d)" obviously still is gibberish, but the Oberbergamt I am pretty certain of. This is a turn of events, because Mr. Mucha seems to be working for the Mining Office all of a sudden. Perhaps it is like Arno suggested, that he got a suitable position for a war invalid?
Rereading the backside I am now convinced that the letter is about a backpayment Mr. Mucha was entitled to, for the months September and October (or August and September?), which was paid to Mucha's representative, the lawyer Igra-Sasnowice.
The bottom line will probably tell where this is precisely, but it is so small and poorly written that I cannot read a single word of it.
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Jan and Arno
You are both amazing. Jan -- Oberbergamt -- I see it now, but the fact you could without any help is really an awesome feat. You should set up shop doing this professionally, or be on faculty at a museum. Very impressive.
Wishing everyone all the best,
John
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Hi John,
Our two postings actually crossed yesterday night, so this is why I was not referring to it in my answer. We must have both been writing at the same time.
I believe we can probably figure it out, but perhaps Marek can post a larger scan of the forwarding adress including the bottom line in red. Also, I would be interested in seeing a better image of the boxed marking in the center of the card.
Arno
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Marek
I cannot read Polish but there is a biography of a Polish civil engineer named Oskar Mucha who was born at Lviv (modern Ukraine). It might be him. I hope this helps better than my skills at reading this handwriting.
Cheers,
John
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Hi Arno
By boxed marking -- if you mean the blue inked rectangle it looks like the last word of the top line reads derzeit, which if correct suggest a postal marking that might be the equivalent of something like -- the addressee not found at this address at the present time.
The first word of the minuscule red inscription looks to me to read as übersenden. Maybe you or Jan can take it from here and correct or improve on it.
John
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Jan and Arno
Maybe the tiny red inscription reads -- übersiedeln nach von -- meaning that he was moved from place A to place B
Good luck.
John
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"Ãœberweisung Pellet(?) zu Wld" is what I read in that last line, but that is nonsense.
It is tempting to read the second word as "Patient" (possibly abbreviated) and Wld as Dld = Deutschland = Germany.
So that would mean: patient has been transferred to Germany.
In German one would say that this is a lot of "Hineininterpretierung", or in good English, many assumptions.
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All human communications are messages and their interpretations based on assumptions. Deciphering a handwriting to discover the original text message we use what clues we have. In this case the soldier was transferred evidenced by the postal markings and inscriptions in red ink. The cause of the transfer appears to be an assumption of his being wounded in battle. If this postcard is intended for the same Oskar Mucha (1894-1974), who was a civil engineer then according to his biography he was wounded in WWI fighting somewhere in the Carpathians and was sent to work as a technician in the Dworcowa Service Building in Lviv after he recovered during this same timeframe of the postmark. But that Oskar Mucha served in the 30 Infantry Regiment and the 56 Infantry Regiment apparently in the Austrian army so it might be two different men with the same name. See http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Mucha
The text for me is very hard to decipher and I humbly defer to your thinking before my own.
John
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Upon further reflection, and talking to a friend, I now believe that this is the complete address:
Zur Bestellung: Amt 18.
Empfänger befindet sich bei der Über-
wachungsstelle VI. A.K. Gen. Kdo.
(Oberbergamt)
I think it should be Amt (= Postamt = postoffice) 18, and not 15. I am inferring this from the Breslau 18 received marking at left. Breslau (Wroclaw) was the peace time head quarters of the German 6th army corps and also the location where its replacement units were trained. It makes sense that the PO that deliverd the card, is also the one that has to forward it. Gen. Kdo. (= General-Kommando = general headquarters) is more conjecture than legibility. I have a reference book that has an appendix of common German WWI military related acronyms. This was the only one that made any sense whatsoever. Finally, Oberbergamt, which according to google is the government agency overseeing mining (Berg = mountain).
Oberbergamt actually makes little sense, as it is not a military installation. I, thus, believe this is just meant as a helpful hint that the Ãœberwachungsstelle (= postal censorship office), where Sgt. Mucha can now be found, is housed in the building of the Oberbergamt. What leads me to believe that it might be as simple is that, is that the word Oberbergamt is in parenthesis.
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05:26:14pm
I know the Polish writing on the card but the German part is difficult to decifer especially that it is cursive.
I'll appreciate any help with translation into English especially the part written in red ink and posted over the destination address. I assume that it was returned but have hard time to recognize hand written words to translate reason of the return using dictionary.
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re: WWI German occupation of Poland forwarded postcard
The writing in red says where the recipient has moved to because he obviously was transferred to a different regiment.
I cannot read all of it, but it says:
"Zur Bestellung: Amt 15. (?) Empfänger befindet sich bei der Überwachungsstelle VI, A, ... " (It becomes unclear from that point).
So translated that would be something like:
"For delivery: Amt 15. (do not know what that means) The recipient is now assigned to control station / checkpoint VI, A, etc. etc."
The writing on the back is quite easy to read. It is addressed to Sergeant-Major Mucha and says that at two dates a certain amount of money has been paid to a lawyer, mr. N. Igra-Sasnowice. The letter is meant to inform Mr. Mucha of this.
Jan-Simon
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08:58:14pm
re: WWI German occupation of Poland forwarded postcard
Thank you very much. Now I have some story to attach to this card that makes it more interesting.
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09:25:03pm
re: WWI German occupation of Poland forwarded postcard
Update:
Just found out that Amt stands for "office" most likely "postamt" = post office 15
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re: WWI German occupation of Poland forwarded postcard
Jan
I am usually pretty good with paleography and can translate German, but you are really awesome. Great work!
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re: WWI German occupation of Poland forwarded postcard
Thank you JLupia,
German cursive script from the period before 1940-something is hard to read, but when you have a good command of the language, plus an introduction into this particular script and paleography as a whole (and patience), it is possible to decipher it. But I must say, it still is a bit of a challenge for me, and everytime I look at it I need some time to get into it. Still, it depends on how it is written and some people just have an illegible hand...
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re: WWI German occupation of Poland forwarded postcard
Jan
Right. Some hands are more difficult to decipher than others. If I may, using your deciphering of the hand it might be read as :
Zur Bestellung: Amt 15. (?) Empfänger befindet sich bei der Überwachungsstelle VI, A, R.(?) bzw. Wissenbergamt,
Translated as :
Forward to Office 18.
The recipient is now assigned to control station / checkpoint VI, A. R. (?) respectively.
Wissenberg {Denmark} Office.
But this is only a guess, which I would not even had an opportunity to make without your initial groundwork. Please feel free to correct it.
Great work Jan!
John
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re: WWI German occupation of Poland forwarded postcard
Hi Marek,
It is a lovely card. Just too state the obvious: registered postcards are not common. The ratio of registered letters to registered postcards can be easily 100:1 (by my estimation). Moreover, the card displays the 7 1/2 Pf postcard rate plus the 20 Pf. registration fee as a mixed franking of the 1915 "Russisch Polen" and the 1916 "Generalgouvernement Warschau" overprinted German occupation issues, which I think is just beautiful.
I have been collecting German and U.S. WWI postal history for several years now with the ultimate goal of matching up correspondence of military units facing each other during the war. Similar to the renewed interest in the Civil War due to its 150th anniversary, I expect a spike in the interest for WWI as we approach its 100th anniversary. I hope to have this exhibit done by 2017 ... it is slow going, though. The project requires tremendous research, not just on the postal history ("rate and routes") aspects, but also the military formations, locations, and movements. Currently, I am not going anywhere and may have to think of a less ambitious project potentially.
The card was mailed Oct. 30, 1916 to a Feldwebel (=Sergeant) Oskar Mucha, at the time Grenadierregiment No. 11, 2nd Ersatz (=replacement) Battallion, Verwundetenkompanie (reconvalescent company).
The Grenadierregiment 11 was a Prussian unit. Formed in 1808, its full title was "Grenadier-Regiment König Friedrich III. (2. Schlesisches (= Silesian)) Nr. 11." In peace times, the unit was garrisoned in Wroclaw, Poland (at the time Breslau, Germany).
The regiment was part of the 22nd Infantry-Brigade, which in turn was part of the 11th Infantry-Division. This Division served on the Western Front for the duration of the war.
The "ersatz" battalion was meant to replenish the unit and primarily consisted of new recruits. As we can infer from the postcard, the replacement battalion of the 11th Grenadierregiment, which was stationed at Neumarkt, Silesia (today’s Środa Śląska in Poland), also included a company of reconvalescent soldiers which apparently were ready for active, albeit not front, duty. In all likelihood, going by the date, Sergeant Mucha was wounded during the horrific battle of the Somme, in which the German 11th Division took part, and was attached to the replacement unit at home while recovering.
When the postcard reached his address, he had already been transferred, and the postcard was forwarded. The forwarding address is most interesting and it is too bad that I am unable to read it. VI. A. K. is the 6th German army corps, but the next two words I cannot read. I agree with Jan's reading of Überwachungsstelle, however. Not to get ahead of myself: I only know this word as part of the monstrous term Postüberwachungsstelle (gotta love those German compound nouns) which means postal censorship office. So, was Sergeant Mucha transferred to the censorship office? Reading mail is certainly a duty a recovering wounded soldier could do ... well, without being able to make out the rest of the address it is just a wild guess.
Collecting postmarks, actually primarily, I also should mention that the German post office at Bendzin, Poland (today: Będzin) began service May 1, 1915 and existed until the end of the war. There were a total of only about 80 German post offices instituted in the occupied Polish territories, usually at the county seats. This is a very collectible number, but once you get your Warsaw, Lodz, and Jablonna's you will find that the going gets really tough. Będzin today has a population of only 58,000, not sure what it was during WWI, but it certainly wasn't a metropolis. Collecting postmarks from smaller towns is always tough and being restricted to a three year window only does not make it any easier. Moreover, several of these German occupation post offices only served German military personnel in their area, the majority, including the one at Będzin, obviously, also served Civilians. Why were there so few? Because the German administration only transported mail between the post offices instituted in towns of size and did not provide for delivery to home addresses. This is where the various Polish local post stamps issued during WWI come into play. These local posts, operated with German permission or toleration, organized the transportation and delivery of mail to smaller nearby towns and home addresses.
Thanks for showing this interesting card,
Arno
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re: WWI German occupation of Poland forwarded postcard
Arno, that is wonderful information!
I have been staring at these hard to read words again, and I think I am a step further, but that does not mean it all becomes clear now.
The forwarding address seems to read as follows: "Ãœberwachungsstelle VI, A, K, Gre.v(d),
Oberbergamt"
The "Gre.v(d)" obviously still is gibberish, but the Oberbergamt I am pretty certain of. This is a turn of events, because Mr. Mucha seems to be working for the Mining Office all of a sudden. Perhaps it is like Arno suggested, that he got a suitable position for a war invalid?
Rereading the backside I am now convinced that the letter is about a backpayment Mr. Mucha was entitled to, for the months September and October (or August and September?), which was paid to Mucha's representative, the lawyer Igra-Sasnowice.
The bottom line will probably tell where this is precisely, but it is so small and poorly written that I cannot read a single word of it.
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re: WWI German occupation of Poland forwarded postcard
Jan and Arno
You are both amazing. Jan -- Oberbergamt -- I see it now, but the fact you could without any help is really an awesome feat. You should set up shop doing this professionally, or be on faculty at a museum. Very impressive.
Wishing everyone all the best,
John
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re: WWI German occupation of Poland forwarded postcard
Hi John,
Our two postings actually crossed yesterday night, so this is why I was not referring to it in my answer. We must have both been writing at the same time.
I believe we can probably figure it out, but perhaps Marek can post a larger scan of the forwarding adress including the bottom line in red. Also, I would be interested in seeing a better image of the boxed marking in the center of the card.
Arno
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re: WWI German occupation of Poland forwarded postcard
Marek
I cannot read Polish but there is a biography of a Polish civil engineer named Oskar Mucha who was born at Lviv (modern Ukraine). It might be him. I hope this helps better than my skills at reading this handwriting.
Cheers,
John
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re: WWI German occupation of Poland forwarded postcard
Hi Arno
By boxed marking -- if you mean the blue inked rectangle it looks like the last word of the top line reads derzeit, which if correct suggest a postal marking that might be the equivalent of something like -- the addressee not found at this address at the present time.
The first word of the minuscule red inscription looks to me to read as übersenden. Maybe you or Jan can take it from here and correct or improve on it.
John
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re: WWI German occupation of Poland forwarded postcard
Jan and Arno
Maybe the tiny red inscription reads -- übersiedeln nach von -- meaning that he was moved from place A to place B
Good luck.
John
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re: WWI German occupation of Poland forwarded postcard
"Ãœberweisung Pellet(?) zu Wld" is what I read in that last line, but that is nonsense.
It is tempting to read the second word as "Patient" (possibly abbreviated) and Wld as Dld = Deutschland = Germany.
So that would mean: patient has been transferred to Germany.
In German one would say that this is a lot of "Hineininterpretierung", or in good English, many assumptions.
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re: WWI German occupation of Poland forwarded postcard
All human communications are messages and their interpretations based on assumptions. Deciphering a handwriting to discover the original text message we use what clues we have. In this case the soldier was transferred evidenced by the postal markings and inscriptions in red ink. The cause of the transfer appears to be an assumption of his being wounded in battle. If this postcard is intended for the same Oskar Mucha (1894-1974), who was a civil engineer then according to his biography he was wounded in WWI fighting somewhere in the Carpathians and was sent to work as a technician in the Dworcowa Service Building in Lviv after he recovered during this same timeframe of the postmark. But that Oskar Mucha served in the 30 Infantry Regiment and the 56 Infantry Regiment apparently in the Austrian army so it might be two different men with the same name. See http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Mucha
The text for me is very hard to decipher and I humbly defer to your thinking before my own.
John
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re: WWI German occupation of Poland forwarded postcard
Upon further reflection, and talking to a friend, I now believe that this is the complete address:
Zur Bestellung: Amt 18.
Empfänger befindet sich bei der Über-
wachungsstelle VI. A.K. Gen. Kdo.
(Oberbergamt)
I think it should be Amt (= Postamt = postoffice) 18, and not 15. I am inferring this from the Breslau 18 received marking at left. Breslau (Wroclaw) was the peace time head quarters of the German 6th army corps and also the location where its replacement units were trained. It makes sense that the PO that deliverd the card, is also the one that has to forward it. Gen. Kdo. (= General-Kommando = general headquarters) is more conjecture than legibility. I have a reference book that has an appendix of common German WWI military related acronyms. This was the only one that made any sense whatsoever. Finally, Oberbergamt, which according to google is the government agency overseeing mining (Berg = mountain).
Oberbergamt actually makes little sense, as it is not a military installation. I, thus, believe this is just meant as a helpful hint that the Ãœberwachungsstelle (= postal censorship office), where Sgt. Mucha can now be found, is housed in the building of the Oberbergamt. What leads me to believe that it might be as simple is that, is that the word Oberbergamt is in parenthesis.
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