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Canada/Covers & Postmarks : Trying to Figure Out Who Mailed This Cover

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parkinlot
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President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
18 Jun 2012
12:41:33pm
I'm trying to figure out which Canadian Senator mailed this free frank cover. Searching Wikipedia for all the senators who were serving on June 6, 1917 who's first initial is "W". I'm not sure what the other letters in the initials are. I'm not even 100% sure that the first initial is "W". The closest name I came across was William Owens who was a Senator from 1/2/1896 through 6/8/1917 (Died in office). If that is the case then he died 2 days after mailing this letter. I also am not finding anything on the recipient. I believe it is A.D. Cummins and Co.

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parkinlot
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President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
18 Jun 2012
12:55:17pm
re: Trying to Figure Out Who Mailed This Cover

Possibly William Dennis if that is a lower case 'd' Served 11/20/1912 through 7/11/1920 or William Cameron Edwards who served 3/17/1903 through 9/17/1921. Both died while in office.

Bob

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Liz
18 Jun 2012
01:05:58pm

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re: Trying to Figure Out Who Mailed This Cover

Wilfrid Laurier? http://english.turkcebilgi.com/Canadian+federal+election%2c+1917

Doesn't look like his sample signature though
http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?_adv_prop=image&fr=ytff1-&va=signature+of+sir+wilfrid+laurier


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nigelc
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18 Jun 2012
03:07:17pm
re: Trying to Figure Out Who Mailed This Cover

How about either William Roche or William Benjamin Ross both of Nova Scotia who were in the Senate at the time?

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auldstampguy
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Just one more small cover .....
18 Jun 2012
07:57:16pm
re: Trying to Figure Out Who Mailed This Cover

I'm with Nigel. Looks like WR to me.

TIm.

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ConnieB
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18 Jun 2012
08:56:23pm
re: Trying to Figure Out Who Mailed This Cover

Just for fun I googled the name and address for the A.D. Cummins and Co., there is a reference to this name and address in a book published in 1917: Record of American and foreign shipping

See http://books.google.com/books?id=kJZRAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA912&lpg=PA912&dq=127+Walnut+St.+Philadelphia+cummins+co&source=bl&ots=7Xu-V9yp0c&sig=JWrLUefEeCPN9Y3ZoytR4czaCyA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=v8zfT46jKufY0QHo6JTSCg&ved=0CEYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=127%20Walnut%20St.%20Philadelphia%20cummins%20co&f=false.

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roy
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18 Jun 2012
09:52:11pm
re: Trying to Figure Out Who Mailed This Cover

I agree, looks like "WR" to me.

It was normal for Canadian Senators to die in office. Until 1965, the appointment was for life. After 1965, until age 75.

Roy

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parkinlot
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President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
18 Jun 2012
11:13:58pm
re: Trying to Figure Out Who Mailed This Cover

I can now see that it is possibly (Probably) an "R". Thanks for the responses.

Bob

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michael78651
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19 Jun 2012
01:06:45am
re: Trying to Figure Out Who Mailed This Cover

Cool piece, Bob.

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ConnieB
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19 Jun 2012
10:27:51am
re: Trying to Figure Out Who Mailed This Cover

There is a reference in the Black Diamond, vol. 56, to an A. B. Cummins, the well-known transportation man from 127 Walnut St. (Philadelphia), circa 1917. Text is available on free Google books online.

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Bujutsu
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11 Sep 2012
08:13:13pm
re: Trying to Figure Out Who Mailed This Cover

I too think that the initials are "W.R."

Nice cover alright

Chimo

Bujutsu

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dani20
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11 Sep 2012
09:58:08pm
re: Trying to Figure Out Who Mailed This Cover

Might it be a WgL ?
Dan C.

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JLupia
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15 Sep 2012
10:05:25pm
re: Trying to Figure Out Who Mailed This Cover


I think I might have found what you are looking for regarding A. D. Cummins & Co. I see a few have pointed out to you already that he was a transportation man in Philadelphia. He owned several ships that sailed around the nation and throughout the world. There is an article, "American Seaman Drowned" in the Freeman Courier dated June 7, 1917, on page 6, that relates how one of Cummins' ships, Frances M., was attacked on May 18, 1917 by German gunfire endangering his 9 man crew. Only 4 of the crew were Americans. They all safely landed at Cadiz. The publication of the report coincides with your postmark and may suggest a relationship between the two events, possibly Canadian crew members or cargo being hauled for the Canadian government at Ottawa. Although merely speculative it fits neatly into the timeframe.

http://fre.stparchive.com/Archive/FRE/FRE06071917P06.php

I hope this is found to be useful to you.

John

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parkinlot
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President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
16 Sep 2012
08:39:13am
re: Trying to Figure Out Who Mailed This Cover

John,

Thank you for that link. Very interesting. I will add it to my research on this cover. Actually every article in that paper. on that page is fascinating. There are articles on WWI, the Russian Revolution. Draft Dodgers and Navy Dirigibles.

Bob

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JLupia
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17 Sep 2012
09:43:56am
re: Trying to Figure Out Who Mailed This Cover

Bob

The senator who mailed the cover can only be one of 15 possibilities, i.e., there were 15 senators of Toronto with the first name beginning with "W" serving on Parliament #14, from June 29, 1914 to September 23, 1919, who could have mailed this from the capital at Ottawa. They are William Torrence Allen; William David Black; Wellington David Cargill; William Clarke Chambers; Walter Renwick Ferguson; William Henry Fraser; William John Hanna; William Howard Hearst; William Henry Hoyle; William Jaques; William James Lowe; William McDonald; William David McPherson; William Herbert Price; William Proudfoot.

I see a few agree that the initials are WR. But, I did not think that was right because of the paleography of the hand. It looks to me like WP with a squiggly connector possibly forming either the middle initial or the abbreviation of William as Wm. Consequently, WP or possibly WmP = William Proudfoot. Otherwise, it could be the squiggly connector is the middle name rendered as the initial H using the ascender of the P and the descender of the squiggly line to form it. In which case WHP = William Herbert Price.

For the link with the complete list
http://www.ontla.on.ca/web/members/members_all_list.do?locale=en&parlID=14


Best regards,
John

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JLupia
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17 Sep 2012
09:04:05pm
re: Trying to Figure Out Who Mailed This Cover

Hi Bob

I miswrote when I said Toronto. It should read Ontario. Sorry about the mix-up.

The main problem with the identification is that we do not have enough examples of the writers hand. Consequently, when he scribbles his initials it is in a hand of a different character than when he is writing more formally like the name and address of the addressee.

You just have to write down all 15 sets of initials and compare them to see what makes the best fit to what you see. The problem with that is interpretation. Tracing out the handwriting of another is not so easy. The Ascender of the S of "Senator" overlaps with the descender of the P, or, perhaps it is an R. You have to try your best to objectively recreate what the writer actually did and see if a clearer picture emerges to help identify just exactly which letters were inscribed as his initials.

Best wishes with your work on this.

John

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JLupia
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18 Sep 2012
09:24:16am
re: Trying to Figure Out Who Mailed This Cover

Hi Bob

One last caveat, I did not distinguish between the Senate and the House of Commons members of Parliament on that list. Obviously, I am not a Canadian historian, obviated by my misspeaking about Ontario and writing Toronto instead. The only Ottawa Senators I've ever heard of are members of an ice hockey team. Although, your cover is a bit outside my field I appreciate the difficulty identifying people with the covers they generated or received. I run into this same problem everyday dozens of times working on my covers. I have some that take many hours to catalog and others less than 5 minutes. So I appreciate how it is when you run across a tough one. Out of empathy I am only trying to be helpful to a fellow collector. My main philatelic collection is primarily US covers. I hope some of this info I thought was salient might actually prove to be of use to you in your investigation and research on your cover.

John

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roy
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19 Sep 2012
08:55:04am
re: Trying to Figure Out Who Mailed This Cover

John,

While your analytical techniques are impressive, the source of your data is incorrect.

The site you link to above is an Ontario Legislature site (equivalent to a State Legislature in the US.) MPP stands for Member of Provincial Parliament. This Legislature sits in Toronto, not Ottawa.

This cover was written by a federal Senator, from the Parliament in Ottawa, and I believe that the earlier responders to this thread (it has been a while now, so my memory may be faulty) were working from equivalent lists of Senators at the Federal level. These Senators are appointed, not elected, and at the time, sat for life once appointed.

Roy

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JLupia
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19 Sep 2012
09:26:54am
re: Trying to Figure Out Who Mailed This Cover

Roy

Thank you for your very gracious reply. As I have already said, I am not a Canadian historian and my peccadilloes seem to be mounting writing, or should I more correctly say attempting to write about that subject. Since you are a Canadian you are obviously in a better position to research this correctly. I would like very much to call on you when I work on that portion of my cover collection that contains Canadian mail. Out of curiosity is there a chronological list of the federal senate available online?


Thanks again,
John

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glennswan
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20 Sep 2012
03:50:31am
re: Trying to Figure Out Who Mailed This Cover

My guess is W P with a 2 over it. William Herbert Price son of the father with the same name. Just a wild guess, in a very exciting and facinating topic.

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