Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
12:41:33pm
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12:55:17pm
Possibly William Dennis if that is a lower case 'd' Served 11/20/1912 through 7/11/1920 or William Cameron Edwards who served 3/17/1903 through 9/17/1921. Both died while in office.
Bob
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Wilfrid Laurier? http://english.turkcebilgi.com/Canadian+federal+election%2c+1917
Doesn't look like his sample signature though
http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?_adv_prop=image&fr=ytff1-&va=signature+of+sir+wilfrid+laurier
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How about either William Roche or William Benjamin Ross both of Nova Scotia who were in the Senate at the time?
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I'm with Nigel. Looks like WR to me.
TIm.
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Just for fun I googled the name and address for the A.D. Cummins and Co., there is a reference to this name and address in a book published in 1917: Record of American and foreign shipping
See http://books.google.com/books?id=kJZRAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA912&lpg=PA912&dq=127+Walnut+St.+Philadelphia+cummins+co&source=bl&ots=7Xu-V9yp0c&sig=JWrLUefEeCPN9Y3ZoytR4czaCyA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=v8zfT46jKufY0QHo6JTSCg&ved=0CEYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=127%20Walnut%20St.%20Philadelphia%20cummins%20co&f=false.
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09:52:11pm
I agree, looks like "WR" to me.
It was normal for Canadian Senators to die in office. Until 1965, the appointment was for life. After 1965, until age 75.
Roy
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11:13:58pm
I can now see that it is possibly (Probably) an "R". Thanks for the responses.
Bob
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Cool piece, Bob.
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There is a reference in the Black Diamond, vol. 56, to an A. B. Cummins, the well-known transportation man from 127 Walnut St. (Philadelphia), circa 1917. Text is available on free Google books online.
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I too think that the initials are "W.R."
Nice cover alright
Chimo
Bujutsu
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Might it be a WgL ?
Dan C.
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I think I might have found what you are looking for regarding A. D. Cummins & Co. I see a few have pointed out to you already that he was a transportation man in Philadelphia. He owned several ships that sailed around the nation and throughout the world. There is an article, "American Seaman Drowned" in the Freeman Courier dated June 7, 1917, on page 6, that relates how one of Cummins' ships, Frances M., was attacked on May 18, 1917 by German gunfire endangering his 9 man crew. Only 4 of the crew were Americans. They all safely landed at Cadiz. The publication of the report coincides with your postmark and may suggest a relationship between the two events, possibly Canadian crew members or cargo being hauled for the Canadian government at Ottawa. Although merely speculative it fits neatly into the timeframe.
http://fre.stparchive.com/Archive/FRE/FRE06071917P06.php
I hope this is found to be useful to you.
John
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08:39:13am
John,
Thank you for that link. Very interesting. I will add it to my research on this cover. Actually every article in that paper. on that page is fascinating. There are articles on WWI, the Russian Revolution. Draft Dodgers and Navy Dirigibles.
Bob
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Bob
The senator who mailed the cover can only be one of 15 possibilities, i.e., there were 15 senators of Toronto with the first name beginning with "W" serving on Parliament #14, from June 29, 1914 to September 23, 1919, who could have mailed this from the capital at Ottawa. They are William Torrence Allen; William David Black; Wellington David Cargill; William Clarke Chambers; Walter Renwick Ferguson; William Henry Fraser; William John Hanna; William Howard Hearst; William Henry Hoyle; William Jaques; William James Lowe; William McDonald; William David McPherson; William Herbert Price; William Proudfoot.
I see a few agree that the initials are WR. But, I did not think that was right because of the paleography of the hand. It looks to me like WP with a squiggly connector possibly forming either the middle initial or the abbreviation of William as Wm. Consequently, WP or possibly WmP = William Proudfoot. Otherwise, it could be the squiggly connector is the middle name rendered as the initial H using the ascender of the P and the descender of the squiggly line to form it. In which case WHP = William Herbert Price.
For the link with the complete list
http://www.ontla.on.ca/web/members/members_all_list.do?locale=en&parlID=14
Best regards,
John
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Hi Bob
I miswrote when I said Toronto. It should read Ontario. Sorry about the mix-up.
The main problem with the identification is that we do not have enough examples of the writers hand. Consequently, when he scribbles his initials it is in a hand of a different character than when he is writing more formally like the name and address of the addressee.
You just have to write down all 15 sets of initials and compare them to see what makes the best fit to what you see. The problem with that is interpretation. Tracing out the handwriting of another is not so easy. The Ascender of the S of "Senator" overlaps with the descender of the P, or, perhaps it is an R. You have to try your best to objectively recreate what the writer actually did and see if a clearer picture emerges to help identify just exactly which letters were inscribed as his initials.
Best wishes with your work on this.
John
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Hi Bob
One last caveat, I did not distinguish between the Senate and the House of Commons members of Parliament on that list. Obviously, I am not a Canadian historian, obviated by my misspeaking about Ontario and writing Toronto instead. The only Ottawa Senators I've ever heard of are members of an ice hockey team. Although, your cover is a bit outside my field I appreciate the difficulty identifying people with the covers they generated or received. I run into this same problem everyday dozens of times working on my covers. I have some that take many hours to catalog and others less than 5 minutes. So I appreciate how it is when you run across a tough one. Out of empathy I am only trying to be helpful to a fellow collector. My main philatelic collection is primarily US covers. I hope some of this info I thought was salient might actually prove to be of use to you in your investigation and research on your cover.
John
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08:55:04am
John,
While your analytical techniques are impressive, the source of your data is incorrect.
The site you link to above is an Ontario Legislature site (equivalent to a State Legislature in the US.) MPP stands for Member of Provincial Parliament. This Legislature sits in Toronto, not Ottawa.
This cover was written by a federal Senator, from the Parliament in Ottawa, and I believe that the earlier responders to this thread (it has been a while now, so my memory may be faulty) were working from equivalent lists of Senators at the Federal level. These Senators are appointed, not elected, and at the time, sat for life once appointed.
Roy
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Roy
Thank you for your very gracious reply. As I have already said, I am not a Canadian historian and my peccadilloes seem to be mounting writing, or should I more correctly say attempting to write about that subject. Since you are a Canadian you are obviously in a better position to research this correctly. I would like very much to call on you when I work on that portion of my cover collection that contains Canadian mail. Out of curiosity is there a chronological list of the federal senate available online?
Thanks again,
John
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My guess is W P with a 2 over it. William Herbert Price son of the father with the same name. Just a wild guess, in a very exciting and facinating topic.
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Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
18 Jun 2012
12:41:33pm
I'm trying to figure out which Canadian Senator mailed this free frank cover. Searching Wikipedia for all the senators who were serving on June 6, 1917 who's first initial is "W". I'm not sure what the other letters in the initials are. I'm not even 100% sure that the first initial is "W". The closest name I came across was William Owens who was a Senator from 1/2/1896 through 6/8/1917 (Died in office). If that is the case then he died 2 days after mailing this letter. I also am not finding anything on the recipient. I believe it is A.D. Cummins and Co.
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Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
18 Jun 2012
12:55:17pm
re: Trying to Figure Out Who Mailed This Cover
Possibly William Dennis if that is a lower case 'd' Served 11/20/1912 through 7/11/1920 or William Cameron Edwards who served 3/17/1903 through 9/17/1921. Both died while in office.
Bob
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01:05:58pm
re: Trying to Figure Out Who Mailed This Cover
Wilfrid Laurier? http://english.turkcebilgi.com/Canadian+federal+election%2c+1917
Doesn't look like his sample signature though
http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?_adv_prop=image&fr=ytff1-&va=signature+of+sir+wilfrid+laurier
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re: Trying to Figure Out Who Mailed This Cover
How about either William Roche or William Benjamin Ross both of Nova Scotia who were in the Senate at the time?
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re: Trying to Figure Out Who Mailed This Cover
I'm with Nigel. Looks like WR to me.
TIm.
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Approvals
re: Trying to Figure Out Who Mailed This Cover
Just for fun I googled the name and address for the A.D. Cummins and Co., there is a reference to this name and address in a book published in 1917: Record of American and foreign shipping
See http://books.google.com/books?id=kJZRAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA912&lpg=PA912&dq=127+Walnut+St.+Philadelphia+cummins+co&source=bl&ots=7Xu-V9yp0c&sig=JWrLUefEeCPN9Y3ZoytR4czaCyA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=v8zfT46jKufY0QHo6JTSCg&ved=0CEYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=127%20Walnut%20St.%20Philadelphia%20cummins%20co&f=false.
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BuckaCover.com - 80,000 covers priced 60c to $1.50 - Easy browsing 500 categories
18 Jun 2012
09:52:11pm
re: Trying to Figure Out Who Mailed This Cover
I agree, looks like "WR" to me.
It was normal for Canadian Senators to die in office. Until 1965, the appointment was for life. After 1965, until age 75.
Roy
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Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
18 Jun 2012
11:13:58pm
re: Trying to Figure Out Who Mailed This Cover
I can now see that it is possibly (Probably) an "R". Thanks for the responses.
Bob
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01:06:45am
re: Trying to Figure Out Who Mailed This Cover
Cool piece, Bob.
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Approvals
re: Trying to Figure Out Who Mailed This Cover
There is a reference in the Black Diamond, vol. 56, to an A. B. Cummins, the well-known transportation man from 127 Walnut St. (Philadelphia), circa 1917. Text is available on free Google books online.
Login to Like
this post
re: Trying to Figure Out Who Mailed This Cover
I too think that the initials are "W.R."
Nice cover alright
Chimo
Bujutsu
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re: Trying to Figure Out Who Mailed This Cover
Might it be a WgL ?
Dan C.
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re: Trying to Figure Out Who Mailed This Cover
I think I might have found what you are looking for regarding A. D. Cummins & Co. I see a few have pointed out to you already that he was a transportation man in Philadelphia. He owned several ships that sailed around the nation and throughout the world. There is an article, "American Seaman Drowned" in the Freeman Courier dated June 7, 1917, on page 6, that relates how one of Cummins' ships, Frances M., was attacked on May 18, 1917 by German gunfire endangering his 9 man crew. Only 4 of the crew were Americans. They all safely landed at Cadiz. The publication of the report coincides with your postmark and may suggest a relationship between the two events, possibly Canadian crew members or cargo being hauled for the Canadian government at Ottawa. Although merely speculative it fits neatly into the timeframe.
http://fre.stparchive.com/Archive/FRE/FRE06071917P06.php
I hope this is found to be useful to you.
John
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Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
16 Sep 2012
08:39:13am
re: Trying to Figure Out Who Mailed This Cover
John,
Thank you for that link. Very interesting. I will add it to my research on this cover. Actually every article in that paper. on that page is fascinating. There are articles on WWI, the Russian Revolution. Draft Dodgers and Navy Dirigibles.
Bob
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this post
re: Trying to Figure Out Who Mailed This Cover
Bob
The senator who mailed the cover can only be one of 15 possibilities, i.e., there were 15 senators of Toronto with the first name beginning with "W" serving on Parliament #14, from June 29, 1914 to September 23, 1919, who could have mailed this from the capital at Ottawa. They are William Torrence Allen; William David Black; Wellington David Cargill; William Clarke Chambers; Walter Renwick Ferguson; William Henry Fraser; William John Hanna; William Howard Hearst; William Henry Hoyle; William Jaques; William James Lowe; William McDonald; William David McPherson; William Herbert Price; William Proudfoot.
I see a few agree that the initials are WR. But, I did not think that was right because of the paleography of the hand. It looks to me like WP with a squiggly connector possibly forming either the middle initial or the abbreviation of William as Wm. Consequently, WP or possibly WmP = William Proudfoot. Otherwise, it could be the squiggly connector is the middle name rendered as the initial H using the ascender of the P and the descender of the squiggly line to form it. In which case WHP = William Herbert Price.
For the link with the complete list
http://www.ontla.on.ca/web/members/members_all_list.do?locale=en&parlID=14
Best regards,
John
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re: Trying to Figure Out Who Mailed This Cover
Hi Bob
I miswrote when I said Toronto. It should read Ontario. Sorry about the mix-up.
The main problem with the identification is that we do not have enough examples of the writers hand. Consequently, when he scribbles his initials it is in a hand of a different character than when he is writing more formally like the name and address of the addressee.
You just have to write down all 15 sets of initials and compare them to see what makes the best fit to what you see. The problem with that is interpretation. Tracing out the handwriting of another is not so easy. The Ascender of the S of "Senator" overlaps with the descender of the P, or, perhaps it is an R. You have to try your best to objectively recreate what the writer actually did and see if a clearer picture emerges to help identify just exactly which letters were inscribed as his initials.
Best wishes with your work on this.
John
Login to Like
this post
re: Trying to Figure Out Who Mailed This Cover
Hi Bob
One last caveat, I did not distinguish between the Senate and the House of Commons members of Parliament on that list. Obviously, I am not a Canadian historian, obviated by my misspeaking about Ontario and writing Toronto instead. The only Ottawa Senators I've ever heard of are members of an ice hockey team. Although, your cover is a bit outside my field I appreciate the difficulty identifying people with the covers they generated or received. I run into this same problem everyday dozens of times working on my covers. I have some that take many hours to catalog and others less than 5 minutes. So I appreciate how it is when you run across a tough one. Out of empathy I am only trying to be helpful to a fellow collector. My main philatelic collection is primarily US covers. I hope some of this info I thought was salient might actually prove to be of use to you in your investigation and research on your cover.
John
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this post
BuckaCover.com - 80,000 covers priced 60c to $1.50 - Easy browsing 500 categories
19 Sep 2012
08:55:04am
re: Trying to Figure Out Who Mailed This Cover
John,
While your analytical techniques are impressive, the source of your data is incorrect.
The site you link to above is an Ontario Legislature site (equivalent to a State Legislature in the US.) MPP stands for Member of Provincial Parliament. This Legislature sits in Toronto, not Ottawa.
This cover was written by a federal Senator, from the Parliament in Ottawa, and I believe that the earlier responders to this thread (it has been a while now, so my memory may be faulty) were working from equivalent lists of Senators at the Federal level. These Senators are appointed, not elected, and at the time, sat for life once appointed.
Roy
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re: Trying to Figure Out Who Mailed This Cover
Roy
Thank you for your very gracious reply. As I have already said, I am not a Canadian historian and my peccadilloes seem to be mounting writing, or should I more correctly say attempting to write about that subject. Since you are a Canadian you are obviously in a better position to research this correctly. I would like very much to call on you when I work on that portion of my cover collection that contains Canadian mail. Out of curiosity is there a chronological list of the federal senate available online?
Thanks again,
John
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re: Trying to Figure Out Who Mailed This Cover
My guess is W P with a 2 over it. William Herbert Price son of the father with the same name. Just a wild guess, in a very exciting and facinating topic.
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