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Europe/Other : Hungary: print variations in Wheat Reaping design stamps

 

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DaSaintFan
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02 Jun 2012
07:06:14pm
I think I'm giving up on Scott's catalogs altogether.. I've been working on my Hungary stuff for the past few days and there are so many variations on some stamps that Scott doesn't even look at, that I was actually getting PO'd at the catalog.

Payday rolls around, and I'm definitely going to go try to find an older set ('08 or so?) Michel batch of catalogs online somewhere...
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michael78651
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Moderator, MT Member

02 Jun 2012
07:50:42pm
re: Hungary: print variations in Wheat Reaping design stamps

You may want to try to find an older Scott Classic Catalog. Many of the variations you are finding could be in the expanded listings there.

I don't know how much more of the non-local issues you'll find listed in Michel. To me it appears to be about the same as Scott. However, I do have Michel and Gibbons to supplement the Scott catalogs, and use them quite a bit as they do come in handy. The three catalog systems together make a great combination. If you find a Michel, remember that you'll need the East "OST" Europe catalog, and that "Hungary" in German is spelled "UNGARN".

Michel also has a special 16-page pamphlet for their catalogs that is an English translation of the important terms used in the catalogs, and it explains how their catalogs are laid out. It only costs about a dollar.

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DaSaintFan
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25 Jun 2012
05:14:14pm
re: Hungary: print variations in Wheat Reaping design stamps

okay.. here's an example of one of those "variation prints" that is killing me!!

(I finally picked up a drafting table magnifier.. that is FANTASTIC in magnification, so I'm finally seeing some of the major differences in stamp types rather than just "estimating" the differences..)

Example: The Wheat Reaping (1916-1919) stamps : Where the face values on the stamps printed in different locations for the same stamp, but the perfs/watermarks are identical

Such as this one:

Image Not Found
(image link borrowed from Colnect for now until I can run a scan of my personal stuff).

The "2" on this stamp is in (on my current stamps) 3 different locations within the value box (both left and right corners).

Stamp 1: The value is fairly well centered (about 1mm from the bottom of the frame box)
Stamp 2: The value is printed almost on the bottom of the frame (about .5mm from the frame)
Stamp 3: The value floats toward the top of the stamp (I think, it's nearly 2 mm from the bottom of the frame, but it's so obvious, I didn't measure it).

Scott shows "0!" varieties....

I know Michel states there are various papers/coloration issues, but says absolutely NOTHING about those variations I just listed.

And this is just one example... the 1941 Building set is even WORSE... with coloration differences (but this may be print type differences (litho vs. typo-print)

I'll just have to do some more digging for some older catalogs...see if they work.

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michael78651
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Moderator, MT Member

25 Jun 2012
06:45:37pm
re: Hungary: print variations in Wheat Reaping design stamps

I think you meant the 1951 building set. Regarding those and the subsequent building sets, at least Scott has listed the different design sizes (large from 1951 and small from 1958). It took them decades to do that, but they finally did it. Now they still need to do that with the 1951 postage due set. There would be color differences between the two printings as they happened many years apart from each other. As you indicated, Scott does not discuss different colors.

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"Author: Seasons of Fantasies and Dreams, The Whitechapel Fog"

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DaSaintFan
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25 Jun 2012
07:25:35pm
re: Hungary: print variations in Wheat Reaping design stamps

Yes, i meant '51 Michael... I'm getting ready to head back down to the basement to figure out how the h-e-hockey sticks to try to get the rest of these Hungarian beasts sorted

I'll try to throw up some scans in a little bit (if I can get the house network working correctly).

http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p507/DaSaintFan/Hungary0002.jpg

Stamp 1: The value is fairly well centered (about 1mm from the bottom of the frame box)
Stamp 2: The left corner value floats toward the top of the stamp (I think, it's nearly 2 mm from the bottom of the frame, but it's so obvious, I didn't measure it). - plus there's the coloration change
Stamp 3: The value is printed almost on the bottom of the frame (about .5mm from the frame)

So does anyone know how these are "type" id'd in any catalogs?

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Rhinelander
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25 Jun 2012
10:26:29pm
re: Hungary: print variations in Wheat Reaping design stamps

DaSaintFan,

Hello. I do not collect Hungary (but have accumulated a bunch, which I hope to turn into a collection "some day") and I am not an expert on Hungarian stamps. Your images suggest that the stamps in the "Harvesting Wheat" design with colored numerals were printed from two plates -- one for the frame and center, and one for the changing denominations. If this is correct, you will always find variations in the registrations of the two plates which cause an ever so slight misallignment of the print. Because these are random variations in the printing process, most collecors (and standard stamp catalogs) will not consider these bona fide "varieties." Extreme misallignments may qualify as EFOs.

So my suggestion is that you try to verify that the stamps where indeed printed using two plates and if that is the case you have your answer. The Turul definitives establish that Hungary has a history of using separate plates for the denominations of definitives.

Arno


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DaSaintFan
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25 Jun 2012
11:30:25pm
re: Hungary: print variations in Wheat Reaping design stamps

That's something I didn't think about to be honest... it was probably a dual plate printing. I'll probably have to go down to my nearest dealer to have him confirm it. So yeah, it's probably a good explanation as to why the alignments are off, and why the catalogs don't have varieties/types for those.

Mark S.

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Galeoptix

06 Dec 2014
01:52:33pm
re: Hungary: print variations in Wheat Reaping design stamps

Mark,

did you check the suggestion of a key/duty plates system???

To me it is obvious that that is how it worked! The catalogues should at least mention this!

groetjes, Rein

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www.galeoptix.nl/fila/druktech.htm
HungaryForStamps
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07 Dec 2014
03:15:55am
re: Hungary: print variations in Wheat Reaping design stamps

No catalog I know show any varieties, not even the Magyar Posta catalog, including Michel, SG and Scott as well. Yellow brown would be a tricky color subject to changing, but there are slight color differences in this issue, probably due in part to wear, soaking, chemical reaction etc. Values in the frame can vary. Nothing here warrants a separate ID for variety in my opinion.

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malcolm197

07 Dec 2014
05:39:26am
re: Hungary: print variations in Wheat Reaping design stamps

I don't know much about this issue or about Hungarian stamps at all, but with respect you cannot necessarily assume that u/v or chemical issues are responsible for slight shade differences.

With long-running definitive sets with multiple printings, there can be many other factors. Changes in paper supplier, with a consequent change in the ink absorption, changes in the dyes in the printers ink, problems matching colour ( usually matching the colour with the previous printing rather than the first - which leads to a progressive lighter or darker shade with the first to the last being quite noticeably different ). You can only arrive at a conclusion after handling a quantity of stamps. Quality control, scientific knowledge and engineeering ability was not as advanced then as is now.

These changes were quite common until recently. Anyone who has had thousands of early GB decimal Machins through their hands will know what I mean.

A point worth looking at ( though not conclusive) is that changelings are not usually consistent( but vary in their fading), while a 20 or 30 of a (different) shade identical to each other is likely to be a different printing, and dated postmark copies could provide a clue.

I take the point that these differences may not be philatellically significant ( says Gibbons,Scott etc - because they are generally cheap stamps and not worth the time or money to be researched )- but I say that you decide what is philatellically significant in your collection. Philately starts where the catalogues end.

Malcolm

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HungaryForStamps
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07 Dec 2014
03:02:50pm
re: Hungary: print variations in Wheat Reaping design stamps

The harvesters were printed by typography (letter press) with a flat bed/platen containing the type. Not until the 30's was this old technology abandoned for cylindrical type. In earlier issues, the type for the numerals was separate blocks from the frame, as in the Crown and Post Horn, Turul, Officials, etc. So there were cases where the values were inverted or set with the wrong type, and location of printed value varied due to type placement. I'm not certain the harvesters were typed with separate numerals and frames - I don't know offhand of inversions or incorrect values.

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Author/Postings
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DaSaintFan

02 Jun 2012
07:06:14pm

I think I'm giving up on Scott's catalogs altogether.. I've been working on my Hungary stuff for the past few days and there are so many variations on some stamps that Scott doesn't even look at, that I was actually getting PO'd at the catalog.

Payday rolls around, and I'm definitely going to go try to find an older set ('08 or so?) Michel batch of catalogs online somewhere...

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
michael78651

Moderator, MT Member
02 Jun 2012
07:50:42pm

re: Hungary: print variations in Wheat Reaping design stamps

You may want to try to find an older Scott Classic Catalog. Many of the variations you are finding could be in the expanded listings there.

I don't know how much more of the non-local issues you'll find listed in Michel. To me it appears to be about the same as Scott. However, I do have Michel and Gibbons to supplement the Scott catalogs, and use them quite a bit as they do come in handy. The three catalog systems together make a great combination. If you find a Michel, remember that you'll need the East "OST" Europe catalog, and that "Hungary" in German is spelled "UNGARN".

Michel also has a special 16-page pamphlet for their catalogs that is an English translation of the important terms used in the catalogs, and it explains how their catalogs are laid out. It only costs about a dollar.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Author: Seasons of Fantasies and Dreams, The Whitechapel Fog"

www.hipstamp.com/sto ...
Members Picture
DaSaintFan

25 Jun 2012
05:14:14pm

re: Hungary: print variations in Wheat Reaping design stamps

okay.. here's an example of one of those "variation prints" that is killing me!!

(I finally picked up a drafting table magnifier.. that is FANTASTIC in magnification, so I'm finally seeing some of the major differences in stamp types rather than just "estimating" the differences..)

Example: The Wheat Reaping (1916-1919) stamps : Where the face values on the stamps printed in different locations for the same stamp, but the perfs/watermarks are identical

Such as this one:

Image Not Found
(image link borrowed from Colnect for now until I can run a scan of my personal stuff).

The "2" on this stamp is in (on my current stamps) 3 different locations within the value box (both left and right corners).

Stamp 1: The value is fairly well centered (about 1mm from the bottom of the frame box)
Stamp 2: The value is printed almost on the bottom of the frame (about .5mm from the frame)
Stamp 3: The value floats toward the top of the stamp (I think, it's nearly 2 mm from the bottom of the frame, but it's so obvious, I didn't measure it).

Scott shows "0!" varieties....

I know Michel states there are various papers/coloration issues, but says absolutely NOTHING about those variations I just listed.

And this is just one example... the 1941 Building set is even WORSE... with coloration differences (but this may be print type differences (litho vs. typo-print)

I'll just have to do some more digging for some older catalogs...see if they work.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
michael78651

Moderator, MT Member
25 Jun 2012
06:45:37pm

re: Hungary: print variations in Wheat Reaping design stamps

I think you meant the 1951 building set. Regarding those and the subsequent building sets, at least Scott has listed the different design sizes (large from 1951 and small from 1958). It took them decades to do that, but they finally did it. Now they still need to do that with the 1951 postage due set. There would be color differences between the two printings as they happened many years apart from each other. As you indicated, Scott does not discuss different colors.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Author: Seasons of Fantasies and Dreams, The Whitechapel Fog"

www.hipstamp.com/sto ...
Members Picture
DaSaintFan

25 Jun 2012
07:25:35pm

re: Hungary: print variations in Wheat Reaping design stamps

Yes, i meant '51 Michael... I'm getting ready to head back down to the basement to figure out how the h-e-hockey sticks to try to get the rest of these Hungarian beasts sorted

I'll try to throw up some scans in a little bit (if I can get the house network working correctly).

http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p507/DaSaintFan/Hungary0002.jpg

Stamp 1: The value is fairly well centered (about 1mm from the bottom of the frame box)
Stamp 2: The left corner value floats toward the top of the stamp (I think, it's nearly 2 mm from the bottom of the frame, but it's so obvious, I didn't measure it). - plus there's the coloration change
Stamp 3: The value is printed almost on the bottom of the frame (about .5mm from the frame)

So does anyone know how these are "type" id'd in any catalogs?

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
Rhinelander

Support the Hobby -- Join the American Philatelic Society
25 Jun 2012
10:26:29pm

re: Hungary: print variations in Wheat Reaping design stamps

DaSaintFan,

Hello. I do not collect Hungary (but have accumulated a bunch, which I hope to turn into a collection "some day") and I am not an expert on Hungarian stamps. Your images suggest that the stamps in the "Harvesting Wheat" design with colored numerals were printed from two plates -- one for the frame and center, and one for the changing denominations. If this is correct, you will always find variations in the registrations of the two plates which cause an ever so slight misallignment of the print. Because these are random variations in the printing process, most collecors (and standard stamp catalogs) will not consider these bona fide "varieties." Extreme misallignments may qualify as EFOs.

So my suggestion is that you try to verify that the stamps where indeed printed using two plates and if that is the case you have your answer. The Turul definitives establish that Hungary has a history of using separate plates for the denominations of definitives.

Arno


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this post
Members Picture
DaSaintFan

25 Jun 2012
11:30:25pm

re: Hungary: print variations in Wheat Reaping design stamps

That's something I didn't think about to be honest... it was probably a dual plate printing. I'll probably have to go down to my nearest dealer to have him confirm it. So yeah, it's probably a good explanation as to why the alignments are off, and why the catalogs don't have varieties/types for those.

Mark S.

Like
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this post
Galeoptix

06 Dec 2014
01:52:33pm

re: Hungary: print variations in Wheat Reaping design stamps

Mark,

did you check the suggestion of a key/duty plates system???

To me it is obvious that that is how it worked! The catalogues should at least mention this!

groetjes, Rein

Like
Login to Like
this post

www.galeoptix.nl/fil ...
Members Picture
HungaryForStamps

07 Dec 2014
03:15:55am

re: Hungary: print variations in Wheat Reaping design stamps

No catalog I know show any varieties, not even the Magyar Posta catalog, including Michel, SG and Scott as well. Yellow brown would be a tricky color subject to changing, but there are slight color differences in this issue, probably due in part to wear, soaking, chemical reaction etc. Values in the frame can vary. Nothing here warrants a separate ID for variety in my opinion.

Like
Login to Like
this post
malcolm197

07 Dec 2014
05:39:26am

re: Hungary: print variations in Wheat Reaping design stamps

I don't know much about this issue or about Hungarian stamps at all, but with respect you cannot necessarily assume that u/v or chemical issues are responsible for slight shade differences.

With long-running definitive sets with multiple printings, there can be many other factors. Changes in paper supplier, with a consequent change in the ink absorption, changes in the dyes in the printers ink, problems matching colour ( usually matching the colour with the previous printing rather than the first - which leads to a progressive lighter or darker shade with the first to the last being quite noticeably different ). You can only arrive at a conclusion after handling a quantity of stamps. Quality control, scientific knowledge and engineeering ability was not as advanced then as is now.

These changes were quite common until recently. Anyone who has had thousands of early GB decimal Machins through their hands will know what I mean.

A point worth looking at ( though not conclusive) is that changelings are not usually consistent( but vary in their fading), while a 20 or 30 of a (different) shade identical to each other is likely to be a different printing, and dated postmark copies could provide a clue.

I take the point that these differences may not be philatellically significant ( says Gibbons,Scott etc - because they are generally cheap stamps and not worth the time or money to be researched )- but I say that you decide what is philatellically significant in your collection. Philately starts where the catalogues end.

Malcolm

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likes this post.
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HungaryForStamps

07 Dec 2014
03:02:50pm

re: Hungary: print variations in Wheat Reaping design stamps

The harvesters were printed by typography (letter press) with a flat bed/platen containing the type. Not until the 30's was this old technology abandoned for cylindrical type. In earlier issues, the type for the numerals was separate blocks from the frame, as in the Crown and Post Horn, Turul, Officials, etc. So there were cases where the values were inverted or set with the wrong type, and location of printed value varied due to type placement. I'm not certain the harvesters were typed with separate numerals and frames - I don't know offhand of inversions or incorrect values.

Like
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