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Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
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For People Who Love To Talk About Stamps



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Sales, Swaps, Auction & Approvals/Auction Disc. : Buy Now Option

 

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lisagrant87
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It is during our darkest moments that we must focus to see the light. - Aristotle Onassis

25 May 2012
09:41:22pm
I'm posting this for feedback from Tim and SOR members. There was a thread awhile ago discussing giving a "buy now" option for options so people wouldn't have to go through the bidding process on something they really wanted. I think it's a great idea. Is it possible to do this? Are buyers and sellers interested?
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DRYER
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The past is a foreign country, they do things different there.

25 May 2012
10:41:34pm
re: Buy Now Option

Too commercial, counter-clubish.

John Derry

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roy
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25 May 2012
10:44:35pm
re: Buy Now Option

I want to say this before Tim has to. Tim has been fantastic at adding extra capability to the site, but be aware that an apparently simple request like this could add significant programming work -- it all depends on the way the current auction script would have to be modified.

It's quite different from the discussion in the other thread about bigger thumbnails -- that's a matter of changing a couple of numbers in the script. This might require a whole new module and a testing to see how it works with all the other modules. But then again, since Tim knows the program, maybe it's a quick change using current capabilities.

Just be prepared to have the answer come back either way.

Roy


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hmdlm1980

25 May 2012
10:50:35pm
re: Buy Now Option

My local stamp club enjoys doing auctions as well as buy-it-nows. Each has its own advantages. Buy-it-now is the same as purchasing from the APS circuits we receive and peruse at all club meetings.

I just love to search for and buy stuff, no matter the selling method. :-) Harley H.

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lisagrant87
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It is during our darkest moments that we must focus to see the light. - Aristotle Onassis

25 May 2012
10:50:49pm
re: Buy Now Option

Thank you Roy. That is true. I'm definitely not a computer programmer. Maybe it would be something for the future or possibly never. It was just a thought. I do appreciate the significant amount of time that Tim puts into making this site all that it is and I wouldn't want to burden him with a huge project.

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Bismark1

25 May 2012
11:14:27pm
re: Buy Now Option

This sounds like a good idea!! If it can be done without too many complex changes.

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dani20
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25 May 2012
11:44:08pm
re: Buy Now Option

Dear Lisa & Bismark1,
Heed the cautions of Roy, for he speaks wizard tongue and knows all sorts of spells and such. We know not the mystical implications of what you propose- I for one am content to be safe and protected within by the Wizard Clan, and hesitate to tire them out on things that might appear good but may be incurring demon wrath from without. Trust in the Wizard master Tim and his helpers- they have done much to keep peace within the realm- of course a gentle inquiry is always proper, but with respect, deference and caution. They do important work and must not be disturbed.
ALL HAIL TO THE CHIEF WIZARD TIM

Dan C.

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lasaboy
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Stamps are a way of life, love it

25 May 2012
11:45:40pm
re: Buy Now Option

Would this not increase the work load required of the people keeping the site up and running, in which case it could be counter-productive
Anything extra needs to be tempered with knowledge of what effects are generated, extra work by the people behind the scenes could prove negative to the site overall

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PDougherty999
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26 May 2012
08:30:49am
re: Buy Now Option

Hmmm. I have mixed emotions on this one.

I'll speak from the impatient person perspective in me first... I love Buy It Now on eBay as I don't have to wait for auctions to close. I see something, and I get it. I very rarely ever bid on stuff on eBay, 99% of everything I've gotten there is via Buy It Now. I also use the Buy It Now auctions there as a guideline for the highest i would bid on an item over here. Implementing a Buy It Now feature here would certainly curb some of my impatience.

HOWEVER, I do like the way things are run here. There is a certain romance to a good old fashioned "high tech" auction. I have grown accustomed to, and have really enjoyed the thrill of the hunt in some of the bidding wars I've gotten into here. I'm not sure if I'd like to see SOR turn into The Little eBay.

Really though, I would love to hear from some of those more seasoned larger sellers here to want to see what they think. I know that guys like Bob and Grant have their own sites where I could go to if i just want to buy something outright.

As a seller myself, if I were to utilize a Buy It Now feature, I think I might want a different set of Terms & conditions to tag into the lot as I would want to handle a Buy It Now sale differently based on what I see over at eBay. I'd have to think about that a little more.

I also acknowledge the amount of work that would need to go into the programming or reprogramming of the website as well.

---Pat

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sponthetrona2
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26 May 2012
09:34:28am
re: Buy Now Option

I'm the most impatient person in Stamporama and have lost many a stamp I've wanted however I too love the club atmosphere and the game of bidding............leave this particular thing alone, it's what makes our club different from all those "let's sell" sites. My opinion. Perry

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lpayette
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26 May 2012
10:02:28am
re: Buy Now Option

I agree with Perry

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CapeStampMan
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Mike

26 May 2012
10:32:29am
re: Buy Now Option

Personally I also like this idea, but first maybe we should determine if we want to be an auction site, or a club site, with an auction. We are definitely a great club site, but it does seem that more people are interested in the auction, instead of getting involved with the organization itself. Very similar to our local stamp club. I had a fellow member call me a couple of months ago asking when the auction was going to happen again (his words), not when the club was having it's next meeting. We have many more members that use the auction, than participate in the continued sucess of the other functions of SOR. That is just MHO, which, along with $5 will get me a cup of Starbucks.

This discussion may also be totally irrelevant if the Wizard of SOR determines that it would require way too much time and work on his part. He is also a stamp collector and would enjoy working on his collection, just as much as the rest of us. I also agree whole-heartedly with Dan, ALL HAIL THE ALMIGHTY WIZARD! LONG MAY HE REIGN!!!!!!

Mike

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StampCommune

26 May 2012
10:59:02am
re: Buy Now Option

As a programmer of websites, I know that adding this option is NOT easy. But on a selling veiw point, if the Buy It Now option were to be put in place, I think you would see a downward trend in trading. As a true stamp club the Buy It Now option should be seperated from the auction so that trading can still be offered. Trading is a big offering amoung collectors and you don't want to single them out to where they don't have a function in the club.
This is all my own personal opinion of course.
Grant ~ Stampcommune ~

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auldstampguy
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Tim
Collector, Webmaster

26 May 2012
11:17:15am
re: Buy Now Option

Hi Everyone,
The question raised here as to whether we have a "Buy Now" option in the Auction is more than a technical one. As such I have raised the question with the Volunteer Committee for discussion. One of the Volunteer Committee will let you know the result in due course.

Regards ... Tim.

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Patches
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Liz

26 May 2012
03:10:50pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: Buy Now Option

My own opinion is that I do not want to see Stamporama become an auction site with a FREE listing/selling BUY IT NOW store for sellers. I'm almost positive that the subject of a BUY IT NOW feature has been discussed in the past by the Volunteer Committee and was voted down unanimously.

If sellers want a BUY IT NOW feature, 'I' would suggest that those sellers list on some of the other paying and non-paying sites where you have to scroll through tens of thousands of repeat listings. Many of these items are never sold and just keep reappearing on their BUY IT NOW listings.

This is just my own personal opinion and not to be construed as the opinion of the Stamporama Volunteer Committee on a whole.



Liz
Stamporama Moderator

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PDougherty999
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26 May 2012
05:41:15pm
re: Buy Now Option

Well, we have heard from at least three "big sellers" and they all are pretty much of the same mind. I personally liked Grant's sentiments. Thanks for speaking up.
---Pat

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michael78651

26 May 2012
09:06:39pm
re: Buy Now Option

Liz, the perpetual buy it nows are from store items. SOR doesn't have a store option. An auction lot here with an optional buy it now would be what would fit in the present environment. With that said, when the auction lot ran its course of 7 days or whatever, if no one used the buy it now option, the lot would close, and no one could buy it after the end of the auction. Also, if someone placed a bid on the item, the buy it now function would have to be disabled for that item.

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George
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27 May 2012
01:01:15am
re: Buy Now Option

when you discuss this matter, make sure that you distinguish two clear options, both of which could be implemented independently,

(a) a store where items are listed for say 12 months after which the sale closes, and

(b) a buy-it-now price on auction items that is usually higher than the initial auction price.

i can appreciate that the store option might be unwanted because it will be flooded with items that are unlikely to sell, but personally i prefer a store option for both buying and selling because once something is bought/sold, the buyer and seller don't have to wait for days/weeks until the auction closes.

the buy-it-now option basically offers a buyer a choice, either pay a higher price now and be sure to get the item, or bid what you it's worth to you and take a chance that someone will outbid you.

assuming the resources are available to implement either option -- i haven't seen the SOR code, but i think neither are a small feat -- you need to work out whether either has a place in SOR and how it might affect the friendly atmosphere of the auction. will people be annoyed any differently if they were trumped by a higher bid or if they were trumped by a buy-it-now purchase? at least with the former they have the chance to up their bid.

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lasaboy
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Stamps are a way of life, love it

27 May 2012
02:00:21am
re: Buy Now Option

I must say I like Stamprama the way it is, the auction site should be a part, but only a small part, it should not take anything away from the great group we all share here.
And I am a dealer, I am also a director of the IPDA (Internet Philatelic Dealers Association), I also produce the Australian Online Catalogue, a free semi-official catalogue, that everyone can enjoy for nothing, you should not try to fix something that is not broken and works, to change for change sake is folly.
Larry

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elliotcreek

27 May 2012
11:21:50am
re: Buy Now Option

I agree lasaboy, "If it ain't broke don't fix it!" That also goes for some of the other threads making the rounds(Mark unread threads as read).
regards

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joelgrebin

27 May 2012
04:07:11pm
re: Buy Now Option

I would like to offer my 2cents worth. I like the buy it now feature because many is the time that I have not been able to get a particular item at a fair price because of an unusual circumstance with that item. An example is single item from a set which would not be available singly otherwise. As far as the SOR auction site, I usually scope out the items in the categories that I am working with and wait until the 24 hour posting feature is up for that item(s). The technical aspect of including it on the auction site I leave to the techies to work out or not. To date the improvements to the SOR site have been many and superlative, kudos to Tim and Roy and others I'm not aware of.

Joel

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roy
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29 May 2012
11:45:57am
re: Buy Now Option

I was going to leave this thread alone, but George's comments hit the nail on the head and I wanted to add my voice to reinforce his comments.

Personally, I would have no objection (wouldn't likely use it as buyer or seller, but no objection) to option 2 -- the "Buy it Now" option on an auction.

However, a fixed price type "Store listing" could be the end of the auction as we know it. One of the guiding principles of the auction terms we have used since I put the first on-line auction on this site -- and a principle that Tim has continued -- is "make it disappear" i.e. do not implement anything that encourages the long term listing of either auctions or fixed price listings. That is a sure way to give the site "constipation" and make it useless. That's why originally, I did not implement a relisting feature -- forcing the owner to do some work to relist, so s/he would have an investment of time in actually trying to sell the item. This has been replaced with "ok, relist is easy, but you have to drop the price" approach -- which is equally good. Since listing is free, it's absolutely critical to have SOME impediment to the continual relisting of stuff that doesn't sell.

Buy it now on an auction -- ok!
Stores -- No!

Roy

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Patches
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Liz

29 May 2012
12:18:54pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: Buy Now Option

After reading all the pros and cons on this subject I have modified my opinion to agree with Roy Lingen.

Buy it now on an auction -- ok!
Stores -- Definitely a No in my opinion!

Liz


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lisagrant87
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It is during our darkest moments that we must focus to see the light. - Aristotle Onassis

29 May 2012
05:22:23pm
re: Buy Now Option

I know this thread went in many directions, as they all do, but I wanted to clarify what I originally meant by Buy It Now. My father has a webstore that sells items in an auction format and the seller can choose if they want an auction price and higher buy it now price, or just an auction or buy it now price. When someone bids the Buy It Now is automatically disabled for fairness sake. I did not mean a separate store on SOR and it took me a minute to figure out that's what other people didn't want as well. I agree! A store would not be a good idea for SOR.

And for those of us who admit to being impatient (I'm one of them), a Buy It Now option would be a good idea if it's doable. I would hate to see Tim use the next 6 months just to make this change!!

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auldstampguy
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Tim
Collector, Webmaster

06 Jun 2012
08:25:33pm
re: Buy Now Option

Hi Everyone,
After considering the many postings on this discussion, both for and against, and discussing it in detail with David (our Auctioneer), I'm going to move forward with implementing this enhancement. As always, I'll do so with the minimum of change to the the current Auction processes. I'll post details of the changes as I implement the changes.

Regards ... Tim.

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michael78651

06 Jun 2012
10:45:27pm
re: Buy Now Option

I think that's a good decision, following Lisa's example. Of course I'll probably wind up buying more now.....I know a couple of sellers here who will be happy.....

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Stampaholic
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07 Jun 2012
08:51:49am

Auctions
re: Buy Now Option

Am feeling somewhat better. So, I put in my 2 cents worth. As I said in the old discussion; If I can get a BIN, I'll do it every time. 97% of the stuff I buy are BINS
or OBOs (just got 2 GBs {#52 & $53, cv. for about $700.00 or so} on an OBO for 26 bucks.
Been after them suckers for years.
Also I hate bidding against friends & customers, which I consider most of the gang here.
SO, I like BINS a lot. Yeehah!









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Doe
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09 Jun 2012
11:41:26am
re: Buy Now Option

This is going to be my favorite auction improvement!

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Stampaholic
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10 Jun 2012
07:08:18am

Auctions
re: Buy Now Option

I wholehearted agree. BINs-Yes Store-No. also , no 100 listings of a common stamp( such as the flag over the porch that 1 billion used are out there) I think this was mentioned earlier. If you have multiples say so in the one listing. Just a suggestion.

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Grandpa
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17 Jun 2012
10:11:52am
re: Buy Now Option

I'm going to enjoy the BIN option for those items I really really want. I think this is a GREAT enhancement to the site. As long as there are no invoicing problems with shipping charges etc between auction items one wins and BIN's all on the same day from the same seller, you hit on a gem. Great job!
Thanks!!! John D.

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auldstampguy
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Tim
Collector, Webmaster

17 Jun 2012
10:49:12am
re: Buy Now Option

Hi John,
There won't be any problems with the invoicing process, it hasn't changed. Once a lot is closed the invoicing program will pick it up whether it was closed as a normal auction or as a Buy It Now lot.

Regards ... Tim.

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CapeStampMan
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Mike

17 Jun 2012
04:30:22pm
re: Buy Now Option

Hey, that works pretty slick. I just bought a great stamp, at a great price, without having to get into a battle royale. Thank you Tim, for all of the time and effort you put forth for the wonderful SOR group.

Mike

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Grandpa
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18 Jun 2012
10:01:13am
re: Buy Now Option

A couple curiosity questions on BIN if I may. Just trying to get this all straight in my head on how it all works.

- When an item w/ the BIN option is bid on instead (via an auction offer), is the BIN option then automatically closed for that item?

- If the BIN option is still open after an auction bid, at what point is it no longer usable - when the bid offer meets/exceeds the BIN price?

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

18 Jun 2012
10:13:35am

Auctions
re: Buy Now Option

John,

BIN stays open until

1. somebody hits BIN

2. somebody bids the same amount as BIN

at which point the lot closes and it goes to the person who did 1 or 2

David

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ConnieB
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19 Jun 2012
10:16:31am

Approvals
re: Buy Now Option

I just bid the buy it now price (ex. $.25) on several listings and was unable to "bid" (ex. $.20) since the system automatically closed the listings at the BIN price although there were no other bidders and I didn't select the BIN option.

Shouldn't a bidder be able to set their maximum bid to the buy it now price (in some conditions), press the bid button and the system records their bid not at their maximum but at the bid amount?

Wondering.

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auldstampguy
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Tim
Collector, Webmaster

19 Jun 2012
11:53:51am
re: Buy Now Option

Hi Connie,
Yes, you are correct. I think you have found a scenario that I hadn't considered (in other words a bug). I'll take a look at that and get back to you.

Regards ... Tim.

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Stampaholic
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19 Jun 2012
12:01:27pm

Auctions
re: Buy Now Option

Actually most of the BIN systems I've seen kick out the Bin if someone bids on it and then it becomes a regular auction. that's appears to me to be the incentive for BINs.
But Hey!, i'm happy either way.

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StampCommune

19 Jun 2012
12:20:45pm
re: Buy Now Option

Most likely in order to keep the BIN option on with proxy bidding, there will have to be a spread between the starting bid and the BIN. It would have to to be at minimum a penny above the dollar amount increments.
Eg: Auction gets posted for 1 cent with a BIN of 6 cents.
The first bidder can put in a proxy bid of 5 cents in order to maintain control and have the proxy kick in.
(Both bidders will have to make a decision, BIN now or let it be.)
Pricing is for example only.

Grant

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roy
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19 Jun 2012
07:12:11pm
re: Buy Now Option

@ConnieB and @Tim

I think what you encountered is appropriate behaviour on the part of the program. I don't think the system should accept bids equal to or above the BIN price. Allowing it could lead to a great deal of confusion.

For example, lets say:

BIN price: $1.00
Opening bid: $0.50

Member A bids $1.10 and expects to see their bid accepted by the system at $0.50
Member B later bids $0.95
Member B is surprised when suddenly the item sells as BIN to Member A and disappears!

Alternatively, Member B clicks BIN -- who gets it for $1? The previous $1.10 bid, or B? The system might just award it to A (depending on how the algorithm is written!)

I believe the easy solution, Tim, is to reject bids greater than or equal to the BIN. Give back a warning saying the bid must be less than (not equal to)the BIN, or you can buy it now for the BIN. Anything else will inevitably lead to wonky outcomes at the BIN threshold.

Roy

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roy
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19 Jun 2012
07:40:57pm
re: Buy Now Option

It just struck me that it could also be used to "camp out" on the BIN price i.e. "I want it for less if nobody else bids, but if somebody else takes the BIN price, I want to have preference in the execution of the BIN".

Not acceptable!

Roy

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

19 Jun 2012
08:34:56pm

Auctions
re: Buy Now Option

i think that anyone who places a bid at the BIN amount wins it; for proxies to work, they must be below BIN. Right now I'm seeing many BIN lots a single increment over the opening bid, or less; that essentially means any bid a full increment above the opening wins it.

To make this more effective, sellers might want to consider expanding the difference between opening and BIN amounts, but that's up to them.

this is my opinion, and not instructions.

David, a member

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StampCommune

19 Jun 2012
11:43:38pm
re: Buy Now Option

Hi all,
I know there here somewhere but I just can't find them.

Where is the breakdown of the bidding increment levels?

Thanks
Grant

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Patches
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Liz

20 Jun 2012
01:05:52am

Auctions - Approvals
re: Buy Now Option

I can't find the bidding increment levels either.
I think it starts at increments of 10 cents but not sure when it changes to a high increment level.

Liz

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auldstampguy
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Tim
Collector, Webmaster

20 Jun 2012
09:16:49am
re: Buy Now Option

Click here for the Auction bid increments.

Regards ... Tim.

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StampCommune

20 Jun 2012
10:15:06am
re: Buy Now Option

Thank you.
Grant

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Stampme

20 Jun 2012
10:32:23am
re: Buy Now Option

I'm hoping that my posting isn't doubled. I tried to reply via my email but that didn't seem to work. Of course the email might have landed on the back of an internet snail carrier and it will arrive after this one.

I guess I just saw on here what I was curious about.

Apparently if someone places the minimum bid on an item, the BUY IT NOW option stays available? The existing bid is basically without value if Buy It Now stays active so essentially there is no auction regardless of bid placed? This seems unfair to me. And I'm saying this with the self-knowledge that I would very likely use the Buy It Now option a lot either immediately to buy or to snatch up an item with a bid that is below the buy it now price.

An auction bid should trump the buy it now option, essentially voiding the buy it now option so that an auction can proceed. Maybe I am the only person who thinks that this should be the way this thing works.

Bruce

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youpiao
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20 Jun 2012
11:12:23am
re: Buy Now Option

From what I glean, from reading these posts, when using Buy It Now, the listing is no longer an auction. It is, for all practical purposes, a set sale listing at the Buy It Now price, with an "or best offer" option.

A "Buy It Now" option is not meant as a message from the seller, saying, "This is the maximum amount I will accept for this item." It is meant as an inducement to get a quick sale. He or she is saying, "Do us both (buyer and seller) a favor. You (the buyer) can save the hassle of waiting a week or more for the result of your bid, and I, the seller, in turn am willing to accept this price if you "Buy It Now." It doesn't mean that if someone decides to take a chance, and bid a lower price, that the seller should forfeit the possibility of receiving a price higher than his original BIN price, if multiple bidders enter the fray.

Tedski

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Stampme

20 Jun 2012
11:40:41am
re: Buy Now Option

Hi Tedski,
I guess I'd have to respectfully disagree with your interpretation regarding auction versus Buy It Now as it sits here now. Why have an auction alternative then? The auction function is undermined if the Buy It Now option remains in effect once a bid is cast. The question comes to mind: Why bid if a bid can be voided by a continuoulsly active Buy It Now option? Like I said, I would use the Buy It Now option as it exists now but it doesn't seem to be fair play to be able to subvert a live bid with this function. Rather than an auction alternative to Buy It Now, then the Buy It Now offerings could have Make An Offer button or Make Your Best Price, keeping Buy It Now separate from Auctions.
Bruce

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youpiao
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20 Jun 2012
11:57:28am
re: Buy Now Option

" The auction function is undermined if the Buy It Now option remains in effect once a bid is cast. "



It doesn't sound to me as if we disagree. What you state is precisely my point. The Buy It Now function makes the listing a set sale, not an auction.

The Buy It Now function should NOT be available once a bid has been placed. If it does, you are are also undermining the purpose of BIN, which is, "You can Buy It Now" at this price, or, take a chance on bidding on the item, and risk the possibility of being outbid and, eventually, bidding more than you would have payed with BIN."

Respectfully,

Ted
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Stampme

20 Jun 2012
12:00:26pm
re: Buy Now Option

Hi Ted,
Sorry I misinterpreted your post!
Bruce

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youpiao
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20 Jun 2012
01:34:52pm
re: Buy Now Option

No problem, Bruce.

Now, all that being said, I CAN see how this would make for an interesting twist on the usual Buy It Now process. But, as it goes against the grain of the Buy It Now process, as used on every other auction site, I just wouldn't call it "Buy It Now." I would call it something like "Instant Winning Bid." And you would have to provide crystal clear instructions to both buyer and seller, how it works.

Unlike Buy It Now, where the BIN price disappears after the 1st bid is placed, and the bidding may eventually surpass the BIN price,

with Instant Winning Bid, the IWB price remains visible and the seller knows he is limiting his upside to the IWB price. And the bidders, instead of playing a regular game of leap-frog, now have to contend with the possibility of someone, at anytime, deciding to end the auction early by entering an Instant Winning Bid.

I like that.

Cheers,

Tedski


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parkinlot
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20 Jun 2012
02:51:42pm
re: Buy Now Option

A few of us disagreed with the way the BIN option would work in another thread. Check the "A Decent Proposal" in the "Auction Discussion" Topic.

Bob

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michael78651

20 Jun 2012
04:41:29pm
re: Buy Now Option

Ted, your terminology of the "Instant Winning Bid" is really what the "BIN" function here is. That is an interesting twist, and would offer intrigue. However, I don't think such a function really is meant for common stamps. What's the point of having a 25 cent stamp offered starting at a starting bid of 10 cents and give it an IWB/BIN at 20 cents (most common stamps have a market value less than 20 cents anyway)? There's nothing to that, and little incentive to either play the odds or hit the IWB/BIN button.

I think alot of confusion will be averted both now and with future new members if the term was changed from "BIN" to "IWB", just because of the wide use of the BIN and the generally accepted definition of how it works and how it functions.

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Stampme

20 Jun 2012
05:05:57pm
re: Buy Now Option

I think we should step back and think about this: There is a notation on here about a bid being a contract of sorts and a winning bid must be honored, etc. and it still doesn't seem fair that once a bid has been initiated that a Buy Now or something else under another name such as Instant Winning Bid, for example can subvert the bid made in good faith. The Buy Now option should be nullified by a bid. If people hesitate to bid, and someone comes along and snaps the item up before a bid is cast, then so be it. That seems fair. The way we are currently doing this is unfair to the initial bidder who is willing to wait.

Bruce

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Woodstock

20 Jun 2012
05:41:57pm
re: Buy Now Option

Gee, this is going well!

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Liz

20 Jun 2012
06:08:04pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: Buy Now Option

Tim I would have never thought of looking under 'Articles' for Auction Bid Increments. Can we put this under the Auction FAQ or Auction Tutorial Section too? Thanks for the information.

Liz

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Tim
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20 Jun 2012
08:09:00pm
re: Buy Now Option

Hi Liz,
That is a good idea. I'll add a link under one of the menus.

Regards ... Tim.

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21 Jun 2012
08:36:34am
re: Buy Now Option

I have to agree with Bruce and Tedski. I don't think it is fair to either the buyer or seller to continue to have the BIN after a bid is placed.

Bob

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ConnieB
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21 Jun 2012
09:48:31am

Approvals
re: Buy Now Option

I also believe it is unfair to the buyer and seller to have the BIN available after a bid is placed.

I like the BIN and may use it, but this current design has a few problems.

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saleem
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21 Jun 2012
10:57:11am
re: Buy Now Option

Things are going fine at this time, let's do a review after letting things run for a month or so and then make changes/tweaks with the input from buyers and sellers. Tim is doing a wonderful job, let's give him time to work out the best possible scenario for BIN.

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Stampme

21 Jun 2012
02:26:36pm
re: Buy Now Option

I would agree with you Saleem if this was a technical issue but rather it is in my opinion an issue of fairness. I'm bewildered why such an option which seems to run against the grain of proper auction decorum was instituted?

Tim,
Was there open discussion about allowing the Buy Now option to remain active after a bid was placed? If not, where did you get the blueprint to follow this particular course?

I am not against a Buy Now option but I do not think we should keep it active once a bid has been initiated. The auction should trump the Buy Now button.

Bruce

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alyn
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21 Jun 2012
05:38:19pm
re: Buy Now Option

I agree with Saleem, lets see how this works out after a month. My personal opinion is that our implementation of a Buy it Now function is fine.

Alyn

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21 Jun 2012
09:43:27pm
re: Buy Now Option

I am not a very active buyer (or seller) in our auction, but like that we are not just replicating other auction websites. I like the interesting twist our version of BIN offers. I do not see Bob (parkinlot) and ConnieB's point that it is unfair to the buyer and seller to have the BIN available after a bid is placed. Firstly, there is no "buyer" until the auction ends. In a real auction the first bidder can always be overbid and lose the item, may that be one bid increment over the intial bid or -- in this case -- by bidding the buy it now price. As for the seller, I am sure the person would much rather sell for the BIN price than for the first inital bid, so why would keeping BIN alive after the first bid not be in the seller's interest?

Arno

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oliver_black

22 Jun 2012
01:54:20pm
re: Buy Now Option

As presently structured, the (voluntary)BIN is the maximum price a seller can expect to receive for an item. And, subject to a prior BIN sale, the BIN is also the maximum a buyer can expect to pay for an item. I see no problem with either situation and cannot understand the previous complaints herein of potential sellers or buyers

Since use of the BIN is voluntary by Sellers, if they don't like it, they don't have to offer it. Also, if a buyer really wanted an item that offered a BIN, they could always have submitted a reserve/automatic rebid(above their initial bid) equal to the BIN.

Having the BIN disappear after an initial bid is made doesn't seem to serve anyone's purpose, either time or moneywise.

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parkinlot
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22 Jun 2012
02:26:05pm
re: Buy Now Option

I'm not 100% sure of all the details but when I first started selling on SOR, I listed the 1992 Portuguese version of the 500th Anniversary of Columbus which was a joint issue with the US, Italy, Portugal & Spain. At the time, it had a catalog value of about $6. I listed it for $2. If I were to use a BIN, I probably would have listed the set at $3 (50% of cat). I would have been happy to get $2. I would have been very happy to get $3. It sold for over $10. I actually emailed the buyer because I thought he may have thought I was selling the whole set of joint issues. He wrote me back chuckling that that issue was very difficult to find and he was willing to pay much more for it if bidding had continued. That is why, once bidding begins on an item, then the buy it now should go away.

Most of us are not masters of the stamp market. This is especially true of covers. No one knows what an item will sell for once more than one person is interested in it. This is why I don't use it under any circumstance.

I believe that the Rules and tutorial need to be updated with how this BIN specifically works so there is no confusion to the buyer or seller because it runs differently than every other website that uses BIN.

Oh by the way, the catalog seems to have caught up with the market as the set is now cataloging for about $25.

Bob




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mcrosby
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22 Jun 2012
02:30:34pm
re: Buy Now Option

I couldn't disagree more with you Oliver. As a frequent buyer on this site, I like the opportunity to purchase an item at the lowest possible price to me. If an item lists with a starting bid of $1.00 and has a BIN option for $5.00, I prefer to bid with the hopes that I can get that item for $1. But someone can come along and use the BIN and I've lost out without even a chance to bid higher. I know that's a risk I take, but I feel that once a bid is made, the BIN should disappear. If the seller wants to get a "minimum amount" for an item, just have the starting bid begin with that amount. To me, BIN is just like having a store with items for sale at a set amount.
I feel now that unless I'm constantly checking the newly listed items, I will miss out on many opportunities.

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22 Jun 2012
08:27:52pm

Approvals
re: Buy Now Option

Just to explain...

As some have said, the major problems I see with BIN remaining after a bid is placed is
1. BINs that remain in effect open the door to snarking, not by time limit, but by price. And currently buyers can't get history on items that closed, so they wouldn't know who grabbed it up. This goes against the other custom of allowing bidders (buyers) to work out the market price in the open, over time, for as long as it takes. Everyone knows who wins. It's over when it's over.

2. How BIN on SOR works is not clear to new users and members since customarily it operates differently on other sites. Someone may bid without understanding that they could still lose it by a BIN user. This is unfair to unaware buyers. As a possible solution, the Instant Winning Bid terminology someone sugggested would be more fair to the unaware.

3. A bidder on a BIN listing can't reserve the BIN price with a maximum bid. I tried and was forced to pay the BIN price even though no one else was bidding. Tim said this was a bug, but it is unclear how the system may change. There was discussion on preventing bidders from placing a maximum bid at or over the BIN.

For sellers, I think inexperienced collectors may underestimate a good BIN price and there is little chance to learn what the market can bear. If BIN prices are grabbed up quickly, they may be too low. Yes, it is a quick sale and the seller chose to price it, but I can see that it is unfortunate that once bidding starts it must be capped and prevent the seller from a potential gain.

That's what I think on this feature.

As for SOR. I like this site. I will continue to use the auction. I respect and admire the work done on the website, it's offerings, the interchanges, and the great people here. It is especially admirable that so much is done without taking a cut of the auction action. Admirable. That said. There is room for a variety of opinions.

As relatively new to stamp collecting for the last few years since I inherited a big collection, I've learned a lot here. I'm grateful.

I don't think I care that much anymore how the group or the key people go with this. I only write these things because I'm trying to help the overall group and I wonder if there is room for members to contribute ideas and observations as part of the process.

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Tim
Collector, Webmaster

22 Jun 2012
09:23:09pm
re: Buy Now Option

I have been watching this discussion thinking about the different points everyone are making. I think Roy raised some very good points about the behavior of the program when someone (like Connie) places a bid in excess of the BIN amount.

Connie, if I place a note underneath the textbox where you enter the bid amount to let people know that a bid in excess of the BIN amount will trigger the BIN purchase, would that help reduce the confusion for new members?

Bop P, you mentioned that you thought that I needed to do more documentation. I added a section about the BIN in the Auction Tutorial. I'm very happy to add more. What do you think is needed?

Regards ... Tim.

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Woodstock

22 Jun 2012
10:32:03pm
re: Buy Now Option

It strikes me as strange that a seemingly simple BIN proposal and implementation has altered the quiet, ease, and enjoyment of the SOR club auction feature.

If we continue on this path should we expect to see a note on auction lots warning: "Bid at Your Own Risk."

On the other hand, it shouldn't take too many losses attributable to the BIN system to keep buyers, including myself, from further participation in the auction.

Food for thought...

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roy
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23 Jun 2012
12:05:40am
re: Buy Now Option

I really don't understand this discussion.

"It's not fair to the seller".
If the seller is not comfortable putting a price on an item, s/he doesn't have to use BIN, and the question is moot.

"It's not fair to the bidder".
The presence of a BIN should make it clear to the bidder that s/he is free to make a bid, but if someone comes along who is willing to pay the asking price (at any time), the item sells. That's the risk of not taking the asking price and "trying" to get it cheaper. The bidder is welcome to try, but that's the risk they accept.

What's really not fair to the seller, is to allow the first bidder to "trump" the seller's maximum price offer by removing the BIN upon the first bid. There is absolutely no point for a seller to use the feature in this case, except with a minimum bid equal to the BIN, turning it into a fixed price offering.

I know I have not been a seller on Stamporama for a long time. I have been far too busy with my own website and regular weekly eBay auctions, but with these changes, and the bulk uploader, I was actually preparing a long list of items for listing, and I will eventually get to it with this system -- but I won't use BIN if any bidder can make it disappear by placing a minimum bid.

Remember, this BIN feature was requested by buyers and the enthusiasm from buyers for the feature is what led Tim to build it. So allowing the first potential buyer to remove the feature is unfair to the sellers who are willing to cap their price (presumably in exchange for increased volume) in order to offer the requested feature.

Bottom line is:
Seller's don't have to use it.
Buyers don't have to place a bid if they don't like the idea of being "snarked" and don't want to pay the BIN -- just ignore the lot if you don't like the BIN and can't stand the idea of somebody else getting it.
Making BIN's disappear upon the first bid will inevitably result in BIN's being fixed price listings (i.e. minimum = BIN), giving no opportunity for bidding at all.

So maybe these sort of listings aren't "true auction" lots anymore, but so what? Call it what you will. Invent a new name for it, but the design is in response to buyers' requests without harming sellers who are willing to use it.

Roy

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Stampme

23 Jun 2012
12:45:31am
re: Buy Now Option

Roy,
You still haven't sold me on this process and I'm not sure that anyone on here requested a BUY IT NOW feature that would essentially kill bids in an auction by its activation after one or more bids were placed. I've said I'd use it to snap up items I want but it impresses me as completely unfair to the bidder who is now shut out by my Buy It Now power.

The charm of an auction from a psychological point is that nobody really knows what an item will bring: It could benefit the seller or the buyer or both. When the current Buy It Now option is exercised, all of that is lost. It makes me feel like the game is rigged in a sense. The romance or charm of an auction has been replaced with a tool that can in essence pull the rug out from under an honest bidder who enjoys the thrill of the experience.

Buy It now, traditionally is used to fetch a higher price that is acceptable to the seller and a quick button pushing buyer who doesn't want to face the unknown playing field of an auction, before an actual first bid. That seems fair if the auction hasn't started.

But, as I've said, once the bid is placed, the auction starts and the Buy It Now feature should disappear. The paragraph that notes that a bid is a form of a contract is therefore nullified by this feature. The contract in its early stage between first bidder or any number of bidders and the seller has been broken.

Tim, what was the blueprint for introducing this type of Buy It Now feature rather than the more traditional Buy It Now that would be voided by a first bid? Who was in on the discussion to implement this type of Buy It Now? It would have been interesting to garner feedback from members about the type of Buy It Now feature proposed before implementation. Or was there discussion on here and perhaps I've missed it.

Bruce

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roy
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23 Jun 2012
01:37:22am
re: Buy Now Option

"it impresses me as completely unfair to the bidder who is now shut out by my Buy It Now power."



But he knew it was there and that it was a possibility. You prefer to give him the power to take away your right to accept the price, just because he was first? An opportunity you will never know you had, because you weren't first?

The only BIN's you will ever see in this scenario are the ones for items that nobody else wants at any price (unless you are the first to see them). If anybody else saw them, and was interested, the first thing they would do is to apply a minimum bid to kill the BIN opportunity for anybody else. If that's the scenario you want, then I stand by my prediction that the only BIN's that sellers will be willing to list will be for "fixed Price" -- i.e. BIN = minimum bid.

Roy





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Woodstock

23 Jun 2012
06:37:51am
re: Buy Now Option

"Buyers don't have to place a bid if they don't like the idea of being "snarked" and don't want to pay the BIN -- just ignore the lot if you don't like the BIN and can't stand the idea of somebody else getting it."



Yes, Roy, that's it exactly! As I have stated previously, if a buyer gets "snarked" more than a few times the odds are there will be a reluctance to bid on future lots carrying the BIN option. One possible result may be that participation in the auction actually may be less than before the BIN was added.

"Remember, this BIN feature was requested by buyers and the enthusiasm from buyers for the feature is what led Tim to build it. "



Ah...excuse me... was a poll taken of the membership on this? I have no recollection of casting a vote.

Truth be told, many members expressed dissatisfaction with the idea itself, and many others pointed out shortcomings. Knowing there was disagreement on the idea wouldn't it have been wiser to poll the membership, or is it that we do not matter?

I'm a buyer, a seller, and a participating member. Where was my opportunity to cast a vote?

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23 Jun 2012
06:52:28am
re: Buy Now Option

Tim,

There is no mention of what happens when someone places a bid on the lot, that there is still a possibility that a BIN can be used. Anyone who has used BIN at another auction website would be confused by it.

Please don't take my comments about the new BIN personal. You are doing a great job and I appreciate your efforts in making this change.

Bob

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youpiao
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23 Jun 2012
10:08:26am
re: Buy Now Option

"There is no mention of what happens when someone places a bid on the lot, that there is still a possibility that a BIN can be used. Anyone who has used BIN at another auction website would be confused by it."



That is the crux of my argument in my original post. Buy It Now is being implemented in a manner that goes agains the well-established Buy It Now feature as used on other auction sites. This will cause confusion, at best, and at worst, will result in angry buyers and negative fallout on the site.

"I really don't understand this discussion.
The presence of a BIN should make it clear to the bidder . . ."


"it should . . ." but won't, because the process is different than the one buyers have become accustomed to.

That is why I would call it something different, and provide a prominent "What is this?" link next to the button.

Neither the Buy It Now feature, where the BIN button disappears after the first bid is placed, nor the Instant Winning Bid feature (which I will call it, for the sake of discussion), where it remains available for the duration of the listing, is unfair, per se. Each has its own advantage and disadvantage, for the buyer and the seller.

BIN Advantage: Buyer can purchase item at a fair price immediately, without the hassle of waiting a week or more for the auction to end, and without fear of getting into a bidding war that might drive the final price even higher. Seller gets an immediate sale (and cash flow) at a fair price.

BIN Disadvantage: For the buyer, none. No bid has been placed yet, so an existing bidder is not disappointed. The seller loses the possibility of a windfall gain from a bidding war.

IWB Advantage: For the buyer, the possibility of trumping a bidder at any time during the life of the auction. For the seller, it's the same as with BIN.

IWB Disadvantage: For the buyer (or potential buyer), the possibility of bidding on an item, then losing it to an Instant Winner. For the seller, his upside is limited; there is no possibility of the bidding going above the price he has set.

In essence, the Instant Winning Bid system allows sniping at any point in the auction, not just at the last second. I think that adds a interesting level of excitement to the auction that is not in any way "unfair" to an existing bidder, AS LONG AS bidders know this is how the process works.

To make an analogy: Let's say you put an ad on Craig's list -- "Selling Grandpa's Stamp Collection. $1,000 or best offer. Must sell within 7 days."

You get an e-mail from someoneone offering you $100. You get another e-mail from someone else offering you $200. Then, a third e-mail arrives saying, "Sure, I'll give you a thousand dollars."

Have you just been unfair to the first 2 people who responded? Of course not. You clearly stated that you would take a lower offer only if no one met your asking price by a certain day.

To reiterate (again), I am not against the BIN feature, as implemented currently. I just think it should have a different name (maybe an or-best-offer, "OBO Sale"), and, instead of Instant Winning Bid, call it an Instant Winning Offer, so that potential buyers know this is not the traditional Buy It Now auction.

Cheers to everybody,


Tedski
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CreativeImages

23 Jun 2012
10:14:39am
re: Buy Now Option

As a collector, a seller, a trader, a buyer or as auction participator, I do not think that any unfair advantage should go to any group. While eBay might be a dirty word, their handling of Buy Now Option (BNO) or “Buy It Now” is that once a bid is made, the option goes away. So, the owner of the auctioned item decides to sell or auction the item, with a special feature of the auction to allow the first bidder or buyer to make a bid or to buy the item; either way, the Buy Now Option is gone, the auction continues or it was ended by the item being bought or sold.

I feel that this should be an auction or a store sale, not either or both. A hybrid of the two is unfair to both the buyer and the seller, and each has advantages for both. I feel that StampoRama should be providing a fair and level business playground.





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Mike

23 Jun 2012
11:08:16am
re: Buy Now Option

I'm not sure why this project became so complicated and seems to have upset the Apple cart, when it is a fairly simple process. A stamp auction is just that, a stamp auction. If you see a stamp you want and just "have to have it", then put your bid in on it, and hope you win it. On the other hand, if you "really, really, have to have it", then click on the Buy-It-Now button and auction over, you win. Let's quit crying about all the pros and cons of this new feature, that Tim obviously spent a lot of his free time on, time that he could have spent on his own stamp collection, to implement.

It's very simple folks, use it or don't use it.

Mike

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Stampme

23 Jun 2012
11:27:31am
re: Buy Now Option

Mike,
I respectfully think you miss the point: The Buy It Now option as it is being implemented (The BIN remains in effect until the auction is over and can be used at the last minute to take the item) voids an active auction. There is no option for the bidder who may return and find his item now gone; he has no opportunity to bid further which is the hallmark of an auction. After this happens a few times, I think most people will utter an unmentionable and stop participating in the auction which seems to run contrary to the spirit of Stamporama and most auctions.

Are there a bunch of sellers here who are brooding about their sales because either the item went for a minimum bid or just over? I don't think so. In fact, as was pointed out a few posts ago, most of the respondents to this thread expressed negative comments about BIN or indicated that it should go away once a bid was cast, and unless I've misread the thread, these statements appeared BEFORE the BIN was implemented.


Bruce

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Stampme

23 Jun 2012
11:45:27am
re: Buy Now Option

Roy you wrote:

"The only BIN's you will ever see in this scenario are the ones for items that nobody else wants at any price (unless you are the first to see them). If anybody else saw them, and was interested, the first thing they would do is to apply a minimum bid to kill the BIN opportunity for anybody else. If that's the scenario you want, then I stand by my prediction that the only BIN's that sellers will be willing to list will be for "fixed Price" -- i.e. BIN = minimum bid."

Your scenario does not sound like a friendly club auction; it sounds more like a seller above all and that voids the spirit of an auction. Has the auction previously been functioning the way you describe above? Have sellers been listing with high opening bids? Yes and no. Some have and some haven't. Some get their first bid. Some do not.

Sellers and buyers appeared to be satisfied with our auction without BIN the entire time I've been here anyway. I can see the introduction of BIN with its standard application (it goes away after the first bid) as fair and beneficial to both buyer and seller.

The super BIN we currently have almost seems like a buyer's dream rather than a seller's fortune. Items can be snapped up fast without the auction acting to increase the amount for the seller, especially one in play. Buyers who perhaps have sour grapes because an item had gone up too high in their past auction bidding history can now interrupt the process and grab the item from several bidders usurping the auction process. Does that really seem fair?

I want sellers to make their money but applying the minimum bid does not kill anything other than that option. If the item is something that will spark interest, then auction activity will occur, likely benefiting the seller and the happy buyer. The BIN is perhaps a hopeful expectation of a fast sale. It shouldn't be used to stop an auction in process.

Bruce

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CapeStampMan
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Mike

23 Jun 2012
11:58:04am
re: Buy Now Option

Bruce,
It would seem that you have misunderstood my point. My point being, "why must we beat this dead horse ad nauseum". If anyone doesn't like the new feature, then don't use it. It you really want the stamp, don't be afraid to BIN. It's just like the discussions we have continually about not winning the bids on regular auctions, because we don't want to bid a higher price than we think the stamp is worth, to us. If you want it, buy it, if you don't, then don't bid on it. We all have that option. It's very simple, very easy.

Mike

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Tim
Collector, Webmaster

23 Jun 2012
12:15:30pm
re: Buy Now Option

Hi Everyone,
I have added a Buy It Now Help button in the lot details screen where you place a bid. The intent is to provide information about how the Stamporama BIN function works for people who are new to it. Please let me know if it needs expanding.

Regards ... Tim.

Link to Buy It Now Help

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CreativeImages

23 Jun 2012
01:13:55pm
re: Buy Now Option

Tim, thank you for the help button, but the discussion seems to be more about the feature or function. Mike, a.k.a. CapeStampMan, seems to think that when the "BNO" is not used by most, the playing field is fair. I say that it is unethical and unfair. And, StampoRama should not favor any group its practices.

Bruce, a.k.a. Stampme, has taken time to very neutrally explain the two sides of this issue, and then adds comments about the fairness of this feature.

To me, this is an ethical issue; is the item for sale or being auctioned? “BNO” gives an option for the auction to the seller to make sales conditions more favorable for the seller. But, I do not feel that this should benefit the seller for the entire auction, because this is not a real auction.

I do not bid on auctions on StampoRama. This is one issue that bothers me. Other reputable auctions (national, region or local) do not do this. When I feel that a seller creates any unfair aspect to their auction or items, I do just what you suggest – I do not use their auction. I do not have a problem with the “BNO” function; I do not use it or the auction. I am a collector that any auction would like to have as a customer. I spend a lot of time checking about items that I am interested in, then communicating with the seller, then biding on an item. In the past month, I have sent several thousand dollars; in the past year I have purchased very close to fifteen thousand worth of new items for my collect. Once or twice I have used “But It Now” function, and I feel that I got the better of the transaction.

But, I feel it is unfair, and I normally do not use this type of auction.


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oliver_black

23 Jun 2012
02:13:41pm
re: Buy Now Option

It seems to me that if the system would permit a bidder to place a back-up bid that went as high as the "Win it now price" without triggering the immediate close of the auction/sale at that WIN price until the active bidding increments triggered the raises to the WIN price, a major problem could be solved. It is true that an advantage would exist for the first bidder to place a back-up bid at the WIN price, but the reality is, the early bird usually does get the worm. The only disadvantage might be that bidders in certain time zones would "see" the auction item available before other time zones and be able to insert their reserve WIN bid first. Given the international nature of SOR, this cannot be completely avoided, but it could be minimized by having the system set-up to go "online/live" with all newly offered items at the same arbitrary time each day irrespective of when the seller actually uploaded their new offerings to the system.


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StampCommune

23 Jun 2012
02:58:20pm
re: Buy Now Option

Oliver,
No matter when a item is posted, someone, somewhere will be in the time zone not workable for them. In the scenerio that you are proposing, what timezome would be "fair" for EVERONE. No matter when a seller posts a item, it's 12 hours "wrong" for someone else.
With the current setting with the BIN, a bidder has a opportunity to see it, bid on it, or even Buy It, after a initial bid has been placed.

Regarding BIN overall (my opinion):
It has been in use for less than a week and I'm sure there are adjustments may have to be made. Overall, matbe after a time period it will not be the best scenario for SOR and it will be dropped. BUT, as said in previous posts, you don't know until you try it.
Testing of this sort of software takes hours, days, weeks and years to implement with either many voluntees or employees. The only testing (that I am aware of) that Tim has to test SOR software is in a test enviroment that very limited (if any) users can test. Most likely, he's the only one who has access to that system, which in turn he's only one who can test it. SO unless SOR has dedicated volunteers (not the volunteer committee)that can test the test enviroment, which in my opinion would require about 20 - 25 users, the current implementation is the ONLY way to see if something works or not.
With that said...are you willing to test a test system for 10 - 15 hours a week? OR Let Tim implement the changes, let time tell if something is good or bad (for the majority of users) and make the adjustments as needed.

Tim, Roy and ALL the volunteers of SOR: THANK YOU. I TRUST YOUR OPINIONS AND FINAL DESICIONS FOR THE OPERATION OF SOR WEBSITE, NOT JUST THE AUCTION, BUT ALL THE GREAT INFORMATION YOU PROVIDE OUR HOBBY.

Grant Wagoner
~ StampCommune ~

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Mike

23 Jun 2012
06:04:43pm
re: Buy Now Option

"Once or twice I have used “But It Now” function, and I feel that I got the better of the transaction.

But, I feel it is unfair, and I normally do not use this type of auction.
"

Walt,

You're just too funny! You don't think it's fair, unless it suits you! LOL! Unfortunately that appears to be the conscensus of most things in the world today. We also have people complaining about the way the auctions are run, but admit they don't even participate in them. I would venture to guess that more than 75% of the members of SOR don't participate in the auctions either, but don't feel a need to make statements of concern about the way it is run, or not run. I'm also sure there a high percentage of members that read the discussion boards, but have no intentions of making a comment. (I'll bet there are several that wish I would just shut up and keep my comments to myself.)

Like Grant, I personally like the way the entire site is run and appeciate all that our volunteers do for us, each and every day. The auction is just a great bonus and we can either choose to participate in it, or not, which ever we choose. I don't have anyone holding a gun to my head making me place bids, but sometimes wish they would do so to stop me from buying some of the stamps I do buy.

Mike

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It is during our darkest moments that we must focus to see the light. - Aristotle Onassis

23 Jun 2012
07:36:34pm
re: Buy Now Option

Oh my goodness!! Have any of you reread your posts on this thread? Aside from Mike, Grant, Roy and Michael (maybe a couple others) I'm going to call the wwwwwambulance on all of you!! By the way, Michael, I used the wwambulance on my husband....worked like a charm and got us both laughing

Ok...let's see what you all have to say about this....
Scenario #1:
Lot listed for $0.20 starting bid, cv of $1.
Buyer #1 bids $0.20 because it looks interesting to him.
Buyer #2 sees the stamp and says "I absolutely MUST have this to complete the XYZ part of my collection" and places a max bid of $5. She assumes she won't pay this but she must have this stamp.
Over the course of the auction Buyers #1, 3, 4, and 5 all try to outbid buyer #2 who ends up, to the frustration of all the other buyers, winning the bid at $1.50.

Scenario #2:
Lot listed for $0.20 with a BIN of $1.10
Buyer #1 bids $0.20
Buyer #2 uses the BIN and buys it for $1.10
The auction is over in a day, the seller is happy, the buyer is happy, no one ends up being frustrated for 7-10 days.

Don't those scenarios seem the same except #2 caused less grief? No one had to cry or whine and the highest bidder won. If the seller picks a BIN that's lower than what the Buyer #2 would have paid, sorry but they should have made their BIN higher. No one regulates if the BIN is high, low or reasonable so sellers, knock yourselves out!

Really, as Mike said, everyone should be thankful for all the work Tim and the VC do an give this a chance. If you like it, use it. If you don't, don't use it!

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michael78651

23 Jun 2012
09:45:19pm
re: Buy Now Option

So, we have a polarization of the membership over the new BIN function. People are mad, because others don't like it and it took the programmer's volunteer time to create the programming, etc. Others are mad, because it is believed that this was thrust upon the site without any forethought. Let me offer this suggestion for the future in a "Lessons Learned" aspect:

1 - suggestion for site improvement is made

2 - SOR programmer (Tim) create a post explaining the suggestion and solicit feedback from the membership over a one week period, which should give most members a chance to read the posts and comment if they want. (I think people here claim that this is a "club", so the club membership should have a say in how things are run, right?)

3 - SOR programmer reviews all the comments and proposes one, two, three, whatever is appropriate, options for the suggested programming change.

4 - SOR membership has one week to comment and/or provide feedback regarding potential problems or missing functionality.

5 - SOR programmer provides final proposal to membership which votes yeah or nay, or votes for the option a member prefers if there are more than one options.

This process will take some time, but do you want to rush through something, change the system and have World War III? What's the rush? Of course not everyone will like the change. Can't please everyone. However, once everyone has had a chance to offer their opinion, comment further and vote for their preference, and the change was made (or not made) based on the majority, then it can be more easily said, "if you don't like it, don't use it". Of course if the people in charge want to go with the opinion, "It's our system, love it or leave it," well then in that case (and I'm not saying this is what is happening) SOR really isn't a club.

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CreativeImages

23 Jun 2012
11:47:50pm
re: Buy Now Option

Mike,

I would like to think that the conversation is about a function, and not about the work of people associated with StampoRama. I do not believe that there are any comments about poor work or poor work standards. When one is in the public view, the recognition and rewards are small for great work. Please do not add words to my comments; I can speak my opinions.

I, for one, participate in auctions, discussions and organizational meetings for organizations that I am interested in. I bring issues to light, and champion their cause. And, when I feel that the feature or issue is not fair, I do not use it.

When I used the “Buy It Now” (probably on eBay), it did not seem fair that I could end an auction that had run for several days, with several days to go; and the bidding was very close to the “Buy It Now” price; and by using the “Buy It Now”, I would not have to wait to see if I won the item, or have it bought out from under me. This happened about four years ago. Since then, I have decided for me, that is a feature that I do not feel is fair; if I know about a feature of a business that I do not like, or do not feel is fair or I do not trust; I wonder that else about the business that I have not found out about, and therefore try not to deal with that organization.

As you say, many do not read the blogs, participate in the auctions, or go on-line to buy things; but I do. I tried to point out that I am above average on my participation, and therefore not part of the group that you described as not participating. And, you are holding a gun to the membership. For some reason you feel that some people in the club (mainly you) desire an advantage to help you cheat some of the less astute members. That is not in keeping with our by-laws or and other stamp collecting groups’ ethics. Every time you explain the BNO function, you comment how you benefit. This club is not just for you. Everybody might be as sharp as you or as fast as you. I did not think that StampoRama was a blood sport.

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Les
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24 Jun 2012
01:02:49am
re: Buy Now Option

I buy and sell on here quite frequently. I have also bought and sold on eBay. eBay gets a cut on the final price and now that they forced every one to use PayPal a cut on the payment. It is to their advantage to force the item to auction by deleting the BIN on the first bid. I don't like eBay because I have lost countless items because someone would outbid me at the last minute and unlike a real auction, I could not counteroffer. On eBay the last second bid is always the IWB

SOR does not get a cut, keeps the auction open if the bid comes in just before closing, and now offers me a chance to pay a fair price for an item I might want without worrying about the last second bid. If you don't want to use the BIN then don't. As far as I can tell our BIN is much fairer than eBay's. Buy it now means you can buy it now at the price quoted.

If there is something about SOR that I dislike, then it is the discussion board. To use an old adage "opinions are like... You can finish the sentence.

Les


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parkinlot
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Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org

24 Jun 2012
10:23:04am
re: Buy Now Option

I really don't think we need to call the wwwwwambulance. People who are disagreeing are trying to give their perspective as to how they think the auction is running. I have been a member of this club for quite some time and have used the auction to both buy and sell since I started. It was one of the main reasons I joined. I have the utmost respect for our Volunteer Committee and I am very glad to call them friends who I have never met. I hope nothing in my posts disagreeing with the way the BIN is working is interpreted as a slight to the committee or Tim our programmer. As a matter of fact, being a programmer, I would think this change would be more challenging to Tim than it would be if the BIN worked like all other auction websites. All he would have to do is remove the BIN and fall into the existing auction logic. Now he has to take into consideration if the bid matches or exceeds the BIN and has to take into consideration proxy bids.

Let me just ask one question... If the BIN was implemented the way it is implemented on every other auction website, would anyone have blinked an eye? I don't think so.

Bob

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Stampme

24 Jun 2012
11:16:15am
re: Buy Now Option

I completely agree with Bob's sentiment.
Bruce

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michael78651

24 Jun 2012
11:43:40am
re: Buy Now Option

Interesting that the "core group" here likes to use the phrase "opinions are like..." when they don't like what the "newer folk" are saying. This is at least the second time I have seen this tactic used. If someone complains, they take it like an insult against "their personal kingdom" that others are permitted to venture into and by using the "opinions are like..." phrase tell them to shut up with their "love it or leave it" attitude. So whose "opinion" matters here? Like I said interesting...

Les, if the auction lot has a BIN, the lot CLOSES when the BIN price is entered or the bidder bids the BIN amount. Therefore, if the auction lot had 30 seconds to go and someone bids the BIN amount, the auction lot will close, the buyer effectively sniping the item.

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Mike

24 Jun 2012
11:56:45am
re: Buy Now Option

re: Buy Now Option

Mike,

I would like to think that the conversation is about a function, and not about the work of people associated with StampoRama. I do not believe that there are any comments about poor work or poor work standards. When one is in the public view, the recognition and rewards are small for great work. Please do not add words to my comments; I can speak my opinions.


Wow Walt,
You sure read a lot more into statements than were written. Nary a comment was made or implied about poor work or standards. It seems that the Pot is calling the Kettle black here, sir. I can get my-own-self into trouble without any help from you. I have been known to let my Alligator mouth overload my Canary ass upon more than one occaision. But I do as I say and say as I do, anytime. If I want to use the BIN feature, then it will be done. If on the other hand I just bid for a stamps, that's the way it is. What's fair for one is fair for the other. We all have a choice, "Use it, or Not". What ethical or moral complications should arise from something so simple? If one doesn't like some feature or another, then they don't have to use it. It was mentioned as an option that several people would like to see, it was implemented and now we have a simple choice to make. Many people have already used this function and are probably very happy they did. I know I am and feel good about doing so.




Mike

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GBStamps
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24 Jun 2012
12:11:57pm
re: Buy Now Option

Tim

Is there a way that I can opt out of the email notifications relating to this thread. The whole matter is becoming somewhat tedious in my view and I have enough emails arriving in my 'In Box' as it is!

Best Wishes

Tom
Dunfermline

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auldstampguy
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Tim
Collector, Webmaster

24 Jun 2012
12:18:45pm
re: Buy Now Option

Hi Tom,
You can turn the emails on or off by Topic in the Members Area. Click here.

Regards ... Tim.

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GBStamps
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24 Jun 2012
12:22:26pm
re: Buy Now Option

Many thanks Tim.

Tom

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erudite
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24 Jun 2012
12:23:17pm
re: Buy Now Option

My main objection to the BIN addition is that it starts to move the club in the direction of a commercial enterprise. The club was never designed to appease the appetites of people dealing in stamps. It was not designed as a market but philosophically as a place to build one's collection, exchange duplicates and in the auctioning a fair place to pick up reasonably priced items. The collector was the driving force.
The BIN moves the whole process clearly into the laps of the people selling, expands auctioning from a novel, fun experience into a cut throat environment. While it may be good for business, it undermines the spirit of the club. For example I was happily bidding away on an item when 'bang' it was gone......presumably by a BIN arrangement. Frankly, it left me feeling, 'Why bother with bidding?'
The BIN process simply inflates the price, devalues the ethics and spirit of the club and turns it increasingly into 'a merchant's market in the temple'. I oppose it.
Chris

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oliver_black

24 Jun 2012
01:11:01pm
re: Buy Now Option

Grant:

I guess I didn't make my "time zone" point clear enough. I am perfectly aware of the local time variations given the international time zones, and there is no getting around that reality. However, what can be avoided, if desired, is the elimination of some of the randomness that can be unfair to some in the WIN/BIN environment.

I assume, and this assumption may be all wrong, that the timing of the initial posting of item(s) offered for sale is solely under the control of the seller. That is, when they upload the offer, the system accepts it and it is immediately shown on the Auction pages.
Suppose that was changed so that irrespective of when the offer information were uploaded during the last 24 hours, the system would not display it until, say the next 2400 GMT. That way all SOR members worldwide would know that all new offers would appear on the site at a specific local (to them) time. Choosing to be online then would be an individual option, but no SOR member would have an advantage, in the WIN/BIN environment, because they lived in the same time zone as a seller.

If, as a potential buyer, I choose to not take a peek at the Auction pages when I would now know they will initially appear, well, that is my choice, freely made. As it is now, I may not ever know what I am missing.


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lisagrant87
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It is during our darkest moments that we must focus to see the light. - Aristotle Onassis

24 Jun 2012
01:28:00pm
re: Buy Now Option

Bob - the wwambulance was meant to bring levity to the situation.

As a fairly new member, I love this site and admire many of the members for dozens of reasons. I know I'm a 32 year old woman talking to many older gentlemen, but would it be possible for us to let the BIN ride for several weeks then revisit the issue? It makes me sad to see members arguing like this

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CapeStampMan
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Mike

24 Jun 2012
06:15:30pm
re: Buy Now Option

Lisa,

You are reading more into this than should be read and taking it way too seriously. Some people don't understand that they are able to use any part of the SOR site, or none of it. If they choose to use the auction fuction, they can use every part of that or none of it. So far, it's still a free country. Some like to make mountains out of mole hills. Me, I could care less what they do, or think, but do wonder how many times, or ways, it needs to be explained.

And you, young lady, why are you just chatting with "older men"? It might me necessary for me to report you to the GAA (Geriatric Association of America) for discrimination, for doing that. We have a lot of very nice younger and older ladies out there that are also enjoyable to talk to. I know, because I have chatted with several of them and actually got to meet one of them, while she was on vacation down here in the Sunshine State. I do hope you realize that I'm kidding about you just chatting with the men only. Keep up the comments and chatting, we all love to hear from you and read your messages.



Mike

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parkinlot
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Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org

24 Jun 2012
06:37:40pm
re: Buy Now Option

Lisa - I know you meant no harm. I too am sad to see that there are personal barbs going back and forth about this. It seems to me though that the members who disagree with the current BIN are considered complainers and are being told to take it or leave it. To me, this is such a radical change in the "normal" BIN process, that I can't see how anyone would think that there would not be confusion and some disagreement.

Since I have no plans to use it, I think I have said as much as I can say and we will see how this all turns out. Perhaps I have it all wrong. I still love the auction and plan to keep using it. I don't think there is a better one out there.

I have one more request for Tim. You put a filter for BIN at my request. Could you put an Aution Only filter on the searches?

Thanks,
Bob

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Woodstock

24 Jun 2012
06:46:31pm
re: Buy Now Option

Image Not Found Well said, Bob(Parkinlot). My sentiments exactly.

Tim, I would also like to see an "auction only" filter if possible.

Image Not Found

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Stampaholic
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25 Jun 2012
10:29:31am

Auctions
re: Buy Now Option

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

25 Jun 2012
10:50:28am

Auctions
re: Buy Now Option

It’s time for me to reply.

I asked the Volunteer Committee to chat further about this. When I first broached this with them, there was mixed reviews of BIN in general, and slightly less for the way I suggested it (BIN that stays open, until chosen or the BIN price is reached), but there was sufficient acceptance that I thought it worthwhile to move forward. There was not unanimous approval of BIN under either approach, although there was slightly more for the traditional BIN option. Today, the mix is roughly the same, with several in favor, several against, one of no opinion, but more for it than against.

This idea was first broached on 5.25, so we'd been talking about it for three weeks before implementing it, and we've continued more than another week post implementation.

There are mixed opinions here on the DB about it; some are enthusiastic, some hate it, some are willing to see what happens, most members have not made any comments. Some of the voices are those of people who don't participate in the auctions or who have said they don't want to use BIN in any form. I have read all the comments, and have given a lot of thought to the comments and the form their expression took. This is the fourth time I've written a comprehensive response, and the first time I'm actually posting one.

I don't believe any of us on the VC have a "take it or leave it attitude." If there are multiple approaches to a thing, someone won't get his way. That's simple math, not an ethos.

But we have given folks plenty of time to explain their positions for or against it as well as explain their ideas of the benefits of this and other systems. Tim and I have read every post; I've read many of them multiple times; and, for the most part, most commentators have stayed solely with the issue at hand and refrained from gratuitous shots, although the occasional rolling of eyes comes through just as clearly as its writer intended.

We try to build consensus, but we don’t put things to a vote. I can assure you we don’t do things unilaterally, nor do we do things cavalierly.

I know this approach to BIN is different from other auctions. Many things are different from other auctions, including our aversion to sniping, our abandoning any kind of evaluation system, the absence of any fees, its tie-in to the DB, and an auctioneer who can be contacted and responds in the event of a problem real or perceived. Not everyone likes all of these differences, with the 10H rule being the one with the greatest number of dissenters. But I, for one, like many of our differences, and I appreciate just how different we are. Of course, I have reservations about BIN myself: it’s not got universal support; and, by its very nature, mirrors an aspect of the sniping I’ve tried hard to kill. I’ve already used it as a buyer, happily so, and I’m among the most cautious (read “cheap”) bidders here.

So, I’d like to give this experiment a full month trial run. I don’t know how to measure success or failure, exactly, because there’s no controlled experiment here, no control group, and no way to determine causality. Immediately after launching the new BIN, we topped 6,000 lots for the first time ever; we’re back to our normal 2,000. The only thing I’m sure of is that BIN has caused a lot of activity on the discussion board; and I’d like to close that off for a while and just let BIN function.

David, the auctioneer

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CapeStampMan
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Mike

25 Jun 2012
06:00:20pm
re: Buy Now Option

David,

You said, we’re back to our normal 2,000. BUT you forgot to mention that Grant hadn't shown up for work yet!!!! LOL

I agree with you 100%, we must give it a fair trial, but it certainly seems like a winner so far.

Mike

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John Macco
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Astrophilatelist- Space Cover Collector

26 Jun 2012
06:24:02am
re: Buy Now Option

I have been following this discussion with great interest. I may decide to use it or I may not use it. We have choices. We have a choice. I may add in any other auction sites I've used, once BIN was chosen, lot was immediately sold.

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

26 Jun 2012
08:17:10am

Auctions
re: Buy Now Option

John, it will work the same here: when BIN is chosen, the lot is sold.

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Stampme

26 Jun 2012
11:11:38am
re: Buy Now Option

Hi John,

I'm curious, in the various auction sites you mention, was the BIN used after the auction had bids cast? This is the first time I've seen this type of BIN used that overrides existing bids.

Bruce

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Avi
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06 Jul 2012
02:14:27pm
re: Buy Now Option

Oh!!!! Please! is only just another feature in our Auction!
Why so many people with "yes","no" and profound philophies is jut a HOBBY.
Thank you to Tim and the whole staff for all the CHOICES you give memebers.
Peace and Health, when you lose either one then you know the "reality" of Life.
Just my opinbion,
Avi

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Woodstock

07 Jul 2012
11:20:28am
re: Buy Now Option

I have found that it is actually quite simple navigating in the auction as a result of the BIN notation
now showing with the listing: If it's there I skip over the lot.

No stress, no problems, no bid!

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APS #213005

07 Jul 2012
08:51:05pm
re: Buy Now Option

My opinion;

I have no problem with the option - I have used it often and no seller has complained that included it in their lot postings.

It all comes down to;

If you like it - use it.......if not - don't.

Seems simple enough.




Randy

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It is during our darkest moments that we must focus to see the light. - Aristotle Onassis
25 May 2012
09:41:22pm

I'm posting this for feedback from Tim and SOR members. There was a thread awhile ago discussing giving a "buy now" option for options so people wouldn't have to go through the bidding process on something they really wanted. I think it's a great idea. Is it possible to do this? Are buyers and sellers interested?

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25 May 2012
10:41:34pm

re: Buy Now Option

Too commercial, counter-clubish.

John Derry

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25 May 2012
10:44:35pm

re: Buy Now Option

I want to say this before Tim has to. Tim has been fantastic at adding extra capability to the site, but be aware that an apparently simple request like this could add significant programming work -- it all depends on the way the current auction script would have to be modified.

It's quite different from the discussion in the other thread about bigger thumbnails -- that's a matter of changing a couple of numbers in the script. This might require a whole new module and a testing to see how it works with all the other modules. But then again, since Tim knows the program, maybe it's a quick change using current capabilities.

Just be prepared to have the answer come back either way.

Roy


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hmdlm1980

25 May 2012
10:50:35pm

re: Buy Now Option

My local stamp club enjoys doing auctions as well as buy-it-nows. Each has its own advantages. Buy-it-now is the same as purchasing from the APS circuits we receive and peruse at all club meetings.

I just love to search for and buy stuff, no matter the selling method. :-) Harley H.

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25 May 2012
10:50:49pm

re: Buy Now Option

Thank you Roy. That is true. I'm definitely not a computer programmer. Maybe it would be something for the future or possibly never. It was just a thought. I do appreciate the significant amount of time that Tim puts into making this site all that it is and I wouldn't want to burden him with a huge project.

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Bismark1

25 May 2012
11:14:27pm

re: Buy Now Option

This sounds like a good idea!! If it can be done without too many complex changes.

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dani20

25 May 2012
11:44:08pm

re: Buy Now Option

Dear Lisa & Bismark1,
Heed the cautions of Roy, for he speaks wizard tongue and knows all sorts of spells and such. We know not the mystical implications of what you propose- I for one am content to be safe and protected within by the Wizard Clan, and hesitate to tire them out on things that might appear good but may be incurring demon wrath from without. Trust in the Wizard master Tim and his helpers- they have done much to keep peace within the realm- of course a gentle inquiry is always proper, but with respect, deference and caution. They do important work and must not be disturbed.
ALL HAIL TO THE CHIEF WIZARD TIM

Dan C.

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lasaboy

Stamps are a way of life, love it
25 May 2012
11:45:40pm

re: Buy Now Option

Would this not increase the work load required of the people keeping the site up and running, in which case it could be counter-productive
Anything extra needs to be tempered with knowledge of what effects are generated, extra work by the people behind the scenes could prove negative to the site overall

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PDougherty999

26 May 2012
08:30:49am

re: Buy Now Option

Hmmm. I have mixed emotions on this one.

I'll speak from the impatient person perspective in me first... I love Buy It Now on eBay as I don't have to wait for auctions to close. I see something, and I get it. I very rarely ever bid on stuff on eBay, 99% of everything I've gotten there is via Buy It Now. I also use the Buy It Now auctions there as a guideline for the highest i would bid on an item over here. Implementing a Buy It Now feature here would certainly curb some of my impatience.

HOWEVER, I do like the way things are run here. There is a certain romance to a good old fashioned "high tech" auction. I have grown accustomed to, and have really enjoyed the thrill of the hunt in some of the bidding wars I've gotten into here. I'm not sure if I'd like to see SOR turn into The Little eBay.

Really though, I would love to hear from some of those more seasoned larger sellers here to want to see what they think. I know that guys like Bob and Grant have their own sites where I could go to if i just want to buy something outright.

As a seller myself, if I were to utilize a Buy It Now feature, I think I might want a different set of Terms & conditions to tag into the lot as I would want to handle a Buy It Now sale differently based on what I see over at eBay. I'd have to think about that a little more.

I also acknowledge the amount of work that would need to go into the programming or reprogramming of the website as well.

---Pat

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sponthetrona2

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26 May 2012
09:34:28am

re: Buy Now Option

I'm the most impatient person in Stamporama and have lost many a stamp I've wanted however I too love the club atmosphere and the game of bidding............leave this particular thing alone, it's what makes our club different from all those "let's sell" sites. My opinion. Perry

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lpayette

26 May 2012
10:02:28am

re: Buy Now Option

I agree with Perry

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CapeStampMan

Mike
26 May 2012
10:32:29am

re: Buy Now Option

Personally I also like this idea, but first maybe we should determine if we want to be an auction site, or a club site, with an auction. We are definitely a great club site, but it does seem that more people are interested in the auction, instead of getting involved with the organization itself. Very similar to our local stamp club. I had a fellow member call me a couple of months ago asking when the auction was going to happen again (his words), not when the club was having it's next meeting. We have many more members that use the auction, than participate in the continued sucess of the other functions of SOR. That is just MHO, which, along with $5 will get me a cup of Starbucks.

This discussion may also be totally irrelevant if the Wizard of SOR determines that it would require way too much time and work on his part. He is also a stamp collector and would enjoy working on his collection, just as much as the rest of us. I also agree whole-heartedly with Dan, ALL HAIL THE ALMIGHTY WIZARD! LONG MAY HE REIGN!!!!!!

Mike

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StampCommune

26 May 2012
10:59:02am

re: Buy Now Option

As a programmer of websites, I know that adding this option is NOT easy. But on a selling veiw point, if the Buy It Now option were to be put in place, I think you would see a downward trend in trading. As a true stamp club the Buy It Now option should be seperated from the auction so that trading can still be offered. Trading is a big offering amoung collectors and you don't want to single them out to where they don't have a function in the club.
This is all my own personal opinion of course.
Grant ~ Stampcommune ~

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auldstampguy

Tim
Collector, Webmaster
26 May 2012
11:17:15am

re: Buy Now Option

Hi Everyone,
The question raised here as to whether we have a "Buy Now" option in the Auction is more than a technical one. As such I have raised the question with the Volunteer Committee for discussion. One of the Volunteer Committee will let you know the result in due course.

Regards ... Tim.

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Patches

Liz
26 May 2012
03:10:50pm

Auctions - Approvals

re: Buy Now Option

My own opinion is that I do not want to see Stamporama become an auction site with a FREE listing/selling BUY IT NOW store for sellers. I'm almost positive that the subject of a BUY IT NOW feature has been discussed in the past by the Volunteer Committee and was voted down unanimously.

If sellers want a BUY IT NOW feature, 'I' would suggest that those sellers list on some of the other paying and non-paying sites where you have to scroll through tens of thousands of repeat listings. Many of these items are never sold and just keep reappearing on their BUY IT NOW listings.

This is just my own personal opinion and not to be construed as the opinion of the Stamporama Volunteer Committee on a whole.



Liz
Stamporama Moderator

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PDougherty999

26 May 2012
05:41:15pm

re: Buy Now Option

Well, we have heard from at least three "big sellers" and they all are pretty much of the same mind. I personally liked Grant's sentiments. Thanks for speaking up.
---Pat

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michael78651

26 May 2012
09:06:39pm

re: Buy Now Option

Liz, the perpetual buy it nows are from store items. SOR doesn't have a store option. An auction lot here with an optional buy it now would be what would fit in the present environment. With that said, when the auction lot ran its course of 7 days or whatever, if no one used the buy it now option, the lot would close, and no one could buy it after the end of the auction. Also, if someone placed a bid on the item, the buy it now function would have to be disabled for that item.

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George

27 May 2012
01:01:15am

re: Buy Now Option

when you discuss this matter, make sure that you distinguish two clear options, both of which could be implemented independently,

(a) a store where items are listed for say 12 months after which the sale closes, and

(b) a buy-it-now price on auction items that is usually higher than the initial auction price.

i can appreciate that the store option might be unwanted because it will be flooded with items that are unlikely to sell, but personally i prefer a store option for both buying and selling because once something is bought/sold, the buyer and seller don't have to wait for days/weeks until the auction closes.

the buy-it-now option basically offers a buyer a choice, either pay a higher price now and be sure to get the item, or bid what you it's worth to you and take a chance that someone will outbid you.

assuming the resources are available to implement either option -- i haven't seen the SOR code, but i think neither are a small feat -- you need to work out whether either has a place in SOR and how it might affect the friendly atmosphere of the auction. will people be annoyed any differently if they were trumped by a higher bid or if they were trumped by a buy-it-now purchase? at least with the former they have the chance to up their bid.

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lasaboy

Stamps are a way of life, love it
27 May 2012
02:00:21am

re: Buy Now Option

I must say I like Stamprama the way it is, the auction site should be a part, but only a small part, it should not take anything away from the great group we all share here.
And I am a dealer, I am also a director of the IPDA (Internet Philatelic Dealers Association), I also produce the Australian Online Catalogue, a free semi-official catalogue, that everyone can enjoy for nothing, you should not try to fix something that is not broken and works, to change for change sake is folly.
Larry

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elliotcreek

27 May 2012
11:21:50am

re: Buy Now Option

I agree lasaboy, "If it ain't broke don't fix it!" That also goes for some of the other threads making the rounds(Mark unread threads as read).
regards

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joelgrebin

27 May 2012
04:07:11pm

re: Buy Now Option

I would like to offer my 2cents worth. I like the buy it now feature because many is the time that I have not been able to get a particular item at a fair price because of an unusual circumstance with that item. An example is single item from a set which would not be available singly otherwise. As far as the SOR auction site, I usually scope out the items in the categories that I am working with and wait until the 24 hour posting feature is up for that item(s). The technical aspect of including it on the auction site I leave to the techies to work out or not. To date the improvements to the SOR site have been many and superlative, kudos to Tim and Roy and others I'm not aware of.

Joel

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29 May 2012
11:45:57am

re: Buy Now Option

I was going to leave this thread alone, but George's comments hit the nail on the head and I wanted to add my voice to reinforce his comments.

Personally, I would have no objection (wouldn't likely use it as buyer or seller, but no objection) to option 2 -- the "Buy it Now" option on an auction.

However, a fixed price type "Store listing" could be the end of the auction as we know it. One of the guiding principles of the auction terms we have used since I put the first on-line auction on this site -- and a principle that Tim has continued -- is "make it disappear" i.e. do not implement anything that encourages the long term listing of either auctions or fixed price listings. That is a sure way to give the site "constipation" and make it useless. That's why originally, I did not implement a relisting feature -- forcing the owner to do some work to relist, so s/he would have an investment of time in actually trying to sell the item. This has been replaced with "ok, relist is easy, but you have to drop the price" approach -- which is equally good. Since listing is free, it's absolutely critical to have SOME impediment to the continual relisting of stuff that doesn't sell.

Buy it now on an auction -- ok!
Stores -- No!

Roy

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Patches

Liz
29 May 2012
12:18:54pm

Auctions - Approvals

re: Buy Now Option

After reading all the pros and cons on this subject I have modified my opinion to agree with Roy Lingen.

Buy it now on an auction -- ok!
Stores -- Definitely a No in my opinion!

Liz


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It is during our darkest moments that we must focus to see the light. - Aristotle Onassis
29 May 2012
05:22:23pm

re: Buy Now Option

I know this thread went in many directions, as they all do, but I wanted to clarify what I originally meant by Buy It Now. My father has a webstore that sells items in an auction format and the seller can choose if they want an auction price and higher buy it now price, or just an auction or buy it now price. When someone bids the Buy It Now is automatically disabled for fairness sake. I did not mean a separate store on SOR and it took me a minute to figure out that's what other people didn't want as well. I agree! A store would not be a good idea for SOR.

And for those of us who admit to being impatient (I'm one of them), a Buy It Now option would be a good idea if it's doable. I would hate to see Tim use the next 6 months just to make this change!!

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auldstampguy

Tim
Collector, Webmaster
06 Jun 2012
08:25:33pm

re: Buy Now Option

Hi Everyone,
After considering the many postings on this discussion, both for and against, and discussing it in detail with David (our Auctioneer), I'm going to move forward with implementing this enhancement. As always, I'll do so with the minimum of change to the the current Auction processes. I'll post details of the changes as I implement the changes.

Regards ... Tim.

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michael78651

06 Jun 2012
10:45:27pm

re: Buy Now Option

I think that's a good decision, following Lisa's example. Of course I'll probably wind up buying more now.....I know a couple of sellers here who will be happy.....

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Stampaholic

07 Jun 2012
08:51:49am

Auctions

re: Buy Now Option

Am feeling somewhat better. So, I put in my 2 cents worth. As I said in the old discussion; If I can get a BIN, I'll do it every time. 97% of the stuff I buy are BINS
or OBOs (just got 2 GBs {#52 & $53, cv. for about $700.00 or so} on an OBO for 26 bucks.
Been after them suckers for years.
Also I hate bidding against friends & customers, which I consider most of the gang here.
SO, I like BINS a lot. Yeehah!









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Doe

09 Jun 2012
11:41:26am

re: Buy Now Option

This is going to be my favorite auction improvement!

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Stampaholic

10 Jun 2012
07:08:18am

Auctions

re: Buy Now Option

I wholehearted agree. BINs-Yes Store-No. also , no 100 listings of a common stamp( such as the flag over the porch that 1 billion used are out there) I think this was mentioned earlier. If you have multiples say so in the one listing. Just a suggestion.

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Grandpa

17 Jun 2012
10:11:52am

re: Buy Now Option

I'm going to enjoy the BIN option for those items I really really want. I think this is a GREAT enhancement to the site. As long as there are no invoicing problems with shipping charges etc between auction items one wins and BIN's all on the same day from the same seller, you hit on a gem. Great job!
Thanks!!! John D.

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auldstampguy

Tim
Collector, Webmaster
17 Jun 2012
10:49:12am

re: Buy Now Option

Hi John,
There won't be any problems with the invoicing process, it hasn't changed. Once a lot is closed the invoicing program will pick it up whether it was closed as a normal auction or as a Buy It Now lot.

Regards ... Tim.

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CapeStampMan

Mike
17 Jun 2012
04:30:22pm

re: Buy Now Option

Hey, that works pretty slick. I just bought a great stamp, at a great price, without having to get into a battle royale. Thank you Tim, for all of the time and effort you put forth for the wonderful SOR group.

Mike

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Grandpa

18 Jun 2012
10:01:13am

re: Buy Now Option

A couple curiosity questions on BIN if I may. Just trying to get this all straight in my head on how it all works.

- When an item w/ the BIN option is bid on instead (via an auction offer), is the BIN option then automatically closed for that item?

- If the BIN option is still open after an auction bid, at what point is it no longer usable - when the bid offer meets/exceeds the BIN price?

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
18 Jun 2012
10:13:35am

Auctions

re: Buy Now Option

John,

BIN stays open until

1. somebody hits BIN

2. somebody bids the same amount as BIN

at which point the lot closes and it goes to the person who did 1 or 2

David

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ConnieB

19 Jun 2012
10:16:31am

Approvals

re: Buy Now Option

I just bid the buy it now price (ex. $.25) on several listings and was unable to "bid" (ex. $.20) since the system automatically closed the listings at the BIN price although there were no other bidders and I didn't select the BIN option.

Shouldn't a bidder be able to set their maximum bid to the buy it now price (in some conditions), press the bid button and the system records their bid not at their maximum but at the bid amount?

Wondering.

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auldstampguy

Tim
Collector, Webmaster
19 Jun 2012
11:53:51am

re: Buy Now Option

Hi Connie,
Yes, you are correct. I think you have found a scenario that I hadn't considered (in other words a bug). I'll take a look at that and get back to you.

Regards ... Tim.

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Stampaholic

19 Jun 2012
12:01:27pm

Auctions

re: Buy Now Option

Actually most of the BIN systems I've seen kick out the Bin if someone bids on it and then it becomes a regular auction. that's appears to me to be the incentive for BINs.
But Hey!, i'm happy either way.

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StampCommune

19 Jun 2012
12:20:45pm

re: Buy Now Option

Most likely in order to keep the BIN option on with proxy bidding, there will have to be a spread between the starting bid and the BIN. It would have to to be at minimum a penny above the dollar amount increments.
Eg: Auction gets posted for 1 cent with a BIN of 6 cents.
The first bidder can put in a proxy bid of 5 cents in order to maintain control and have the proxy kick in.
(Both bidders will have to make a decision, BIN now or let it be.)
Pricing is for example only.

Grant

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19 Jun 2012
07:12:11pm

re: Buy Now Option

@ConnieB and @Tim

I think what you encountered is appropriate behaviour on the part of the program. I don't think the system should accept bids equal to or above the BIN price. Allowing it could lead to a great deal of confusion.

For example, lets say:

BIN price: $1.00
Opening bid: $0.50

Member A bids $1.10 and expects to see their bid accepted by the system at $0.50
Member B later bids $0.95
Member B is surprised when suddenly the item sells as BIN to Member A and disappears!

Alternatively, Member B clicks BIN -- who gets it for $1? The previous $1.10 bid, or B? The system might just award it to A (depending on how the algorithm is written!)

I believe the easy solution, Tim, is to reject bids greater than or equal to the BIN. Give back a warning saying the bid must be less than (not equal to)the BIN, or you can buy it now for the BIN. Anything else will inevitably lead to wonky outcomes at the BIN threshold.

Roy

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19 Jun 2012
07:40:57pm

re: Buy Now Option

It just struck me that it could also be used to "camp out" on the BIN price i.e. "I want it for less if nobody else bids, but if somebody else takes the BIN price, I want to have preference in the execution of the BIN".

Not acceptable!

Roy

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
19 Jun 2012
08:34:56pm

Auctions

re: Buy Now Option

i think that anyone who places a bid at the BIN amount wins it; for proxies to work, they must be below BIN. Right now I'm seeing many BIN lots a single increment over the opening bid, or less; that essentially means any bid a full increment above the opening wins it.

To make this more effective, sellers might want to consider expanding the difference between opening and BIN amounts, but that's up to them.

this is my opinion, and not instructions.

David, a member

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StampCommune

19 Jun 2012
11:43:38pm

re: Buy Now Option

Hi all,
I know there here somewhere but I just can't find them.

Where is the breakdown of the bidding increment levels?

Thanks
Grant

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Patches

Liz
20 Jun 2012
01:05:52am

Auctions - Approvals

re: Buy Now Option

I can't find the bidding increment levels either.
I think it starts at increments of 10 cents but not sure when it changes to a high increment level.

Liz

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auldstampguy

Tim
Collector, Webmaster
20 Jun 2012
09:16:49am

re: Buy Now Option

Click here for the Auction bid increments.

Regards ... Tim.

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StampCommune

20 Jun 2012
10:15:06am

re: Buy Now Option

Thank you.
Grant

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Stampme

20 Jun 2012
10:32:23am

re: Buy Now Option

I'm hoping that my posting isn't doubled. I tried to reply via my email but that didn't seem to work. Of course the email might have landed on the back of an internet snail carrier and it will arrive after this one.

I guess I just saw on here what I was curious about.

Apparently if someone places the minimum bid on an item, the BUY IT NOW option stays available? The existing bid is basically without value if Buy It Now stays active so essentially there is no auction regardless of bid placed? This seems unfair to me. And I'm saying this with the self-knowledge that I would very likely use the Buy It Now option a lot either immediately to buy or to snatch up an item with a bid that is below the buy it now price.

An auction bid should trump the buy it now option, essentially voiding the buy it now option so that an auction can proceed. Maybe I am the only person who thinks that this should be the way this thing works.

Bruce

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youpiao

20 Jun 2012
11:12:23am

re: Buy Now Option

From what I glean, from reading these posts, when using Buy It Now, the listing is no longer an auction. It is, for all practical purposes, a set sale listing at the Buy It Now price, with an "or best offer" option.

A "Buy It Now" option is not meant as a message from the seller, saying, "This is the maximum amount I will accept for this item." It is meant as an inducement to get a quick sale. He or she is saying, "Do us both (buyer and seller) a favor. You (the buyer) can save the hassle of waiting a week or more for the result of your bid, and I, the seller, in turn am willing to accept this price if you "Buy It Now." It doesn't mean that if someone decides to take a chance, and bid a lower price, that the seller should forfeit the possibility of receiving a price higher than his original BIN price, if multiple bidders enter the fray.

Tedski

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Stampme

20 Jun 2012
11:40:41am

re: Buy Now Option

Hi Tedski,
I guess I'd have to respectfully disagree with your interpretation regarding auction versus Buy It Now as it sits here now. Why have an auction alternative then? The auction function is undermined if the Buy It Now option remains in effect once a bid is cast. The question comes to mind: Why bid if a bid can be voided by a continuoulsly active Buy It Now option? Like I said, I would use the Buy It Now option as it exists now but it doesn't seem to be fair play to be able to subvert a live bid with this function. Rather than an auction alternative to Buy It Now, then the Buy It Now offerings could have Make An Offer button or Make Your Best Price, keeping Buy It Now separate from Auctions.
Bruce

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youpiao

20 Jun 2012
11:57:28am

re: Buy Now Option

" The auction function is undermined if the Buy It Now option remains in effect once a bid is cast. "



It doesn't sound to me as if we disagree. What you state is precisely my point. The Buy It Now function makes the listing a set sale, not an auction.

The Buy It Now function should NOT be available once a bid has been placed. If it does, you are are also undermining the purpose of BIN, which is, "You can Buy It Now" at this price, or, take a chance on bidding on the item, and risk the possibility of being outbid and, eventually, bidding more than you would have payed with BIN."

Respectfully,

Ted
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Stampme

20 Jun 2012
12:00:26pm

re: Buy Now Option

Hi Ted,
Sorry I misinterpreted your post!
Bruce

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youpiao

20 Jun 2012
01:34:52pm

re: Buy Now Option

No problem, Bruce.

Now, all that being said, I CAN see how this would make for an interesting twist on the usual Buy It Now process. But, as it goes against the grain of the Buy It Now process, as used on every other auction site, I just wouldn't call it "Buy It Now." I would call it something like "Instant Winning Bid." And you would have to provide crystal clear instructions to both buyer and seller, how it works.

Unlike Buy It Now, where the BIN price disappears after the 1st bid is placed, and the bidding may eventually surpass the BIN price,

with Instant Winning Bid, the IWB price remains visible and the seller knows he is limiting his upside to the IWB price. And the bidders, instead of playing a regular game of leap-frog, now have to contend with the possibility of someone, at anytime, deciding to end the auction early by entering an Instant Winning Bid.

I like that.

Cheers,

Tedski


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20 Jun 2012
02:51:42pm

re: Buy Now Option

A few of us disagreed with the way the BIN option would work in another thread. Check the "A Decent Proposal" in the "Auction Discussion" Topic.

Bob

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michael78651

20 Jun 2012
04:41:29pm

re: Buy Now Option

Ted, your terminology of the "Instant Winning Bid" is really what the "BIN" function here is. That is an interesting twist, and would offer intrigue. However, I don't think such a function really is meant for common stamps. What's the point of having a 25 cent stamp offered starting at a starting bid of 10 cents and give it an IWB/BIN at 20 cents (most common stamps have a market value less than 20 cents anyway)? There's nothing to that, and little incentive to either play the odds or hit the IWB/BIN button.

I think alot of confusion will be averted both now and with future new members if the term was changed from "BIN" to "IWB", just because of the wide use of the BIN and the generally accepted definition of how it works and how it functions.

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Stampme

20 Jun 2012
05:05:57pm

re: Buy Now Option

I think we should step back and think about this: There is a notation on here about a bid being a contract of sorts and a winning bid must be honored, etc. and it still doesn't seem fair that once a bid has been initiated that a Buy Now or something else under another name such as Instant Winning Bid, for example can subvert the bid made in good faith. The Buy Now option should be nullified by a bid. If people hesitate to bid, and someone comes along and snaps the item up before a bid is cast, then so be it. That seems fair. The way we are currently doing this is unfair to the initial bidder who is willing to wait.

Bruce

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Woodstock

20 Jun 2012
05:41:57pm

re: Buy Now Option

Gee, this is going well!

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Liz
20 Jun 2012
06:08:04pm

Auctions - Approvals

re: Buy Now Option

Tim I would have never thought of looking under 'Articles' for Auction Bid Increments. Can we put this under the Auction FAQ or Auction Tutorial Section too? Thanks for the information.

Liz

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Tim
Collector, Webmaster
20 Jun 2012
08:09:00pm

re: Buy Now Option

Hi Liz,
That is a good idea. I'll add a link under one of the menus.

Regards ... Tim.

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21 Jun 2012
08:36:34am

re: Buy Now Option

I have to agree with Bruce and Tedski. I don't think it is fair to either the buyer or seller to continue to have the BIN after a bid is placed.

Bob

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ConnieB

21 Jun 2012
09:48:31am

Approvals

re: Buy Now Option

I also believe it is unfair to the buyer and seller to have the BIN available after a bid is placed.

I like the BIN and may use it, but this current design has a few problems.

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saleem

21 Jun 2012
10:57:11am

re: Buy Now Option

Things are going fine at this time, let's do a review after letting things run for a month or so and then make changes/tweaks with the input from buyers and sellers. Tim is doing a wonderful job, let's give him time to work out the best possible scenario for BIN.

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Stampme

21 Jun 2012
02:26:36pm

re: Buy Now Option

I would agree with you Saleem if this was a technical issue but rather it is in my opinion an issue of fairness. I'm bewildered why such an option which seems to run against the grain of proper auction decorum was instituted?

Tim,
Was there open discussion about allowing the Buy Now option to remain active after a bid was placed? If not, where did you get the blueprint to follow this particular course?

I am not against a Buy Now option but I do not think we should keep it active once a bid has been initiated. The auction should trump the Buy Now button.

Bruce

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alyn

webmaster for the ISWSC http://iswsc.org.
21 Jun 2012
05:38:19pm

re: Buy Now Option

I agree with Saleem, lets see how this works out after a month. My personal opinion is that our implementation of a Buy it Now function is fine.

Alyn

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Rhinelander

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21 Jun 2012
09:43:27pm

re: Buy Now Option

I am not a very active buyer (or seller) in our auction, but like that we are not just replicating other auction websites. I like the interesting twist our version of BIN offers. I do not see Bob (parkinlot) and ConnieB's point that it is unfair to the buyer and seller to have the BIN available after a bid is placed. Firstly, there is no "buyer" until the auction ends. In a real auction the first bidder can always be overbid and lose the item, may that be one bid increment over the intial bid or -- in this case -- by bidding the buy it now price. As for the seller, I am sure the person would much rather sell for the BIN price than for the first inital bid, so why would keeping BIN alive after the first bid not be in the seller's interest?

Arno

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oliver_black

22 Jun 2012
01:54:20pm

re: Buy Now Option

As presently structured, the (voluntary)BIN is the maximum price a seller can expect to receive for an item. And, subject to a prior BIN sale, the BIN is also the maximum a buyer can expect to pay for an item. I see no problem with either situation and cannot understand the previous complaints herein of potential sellers or buyers

Since use of the BIN is voluntary by Sellers, if they don't like it, they don't have to offer it. Also, if a buyer really wanted an item that offered a BIN, they could always have submitted a reserve/automatic rebid(above their initial bid) equal to the BIN.

Having the BIN disappear after an initial bid is made doesn't seem to serve anyone's purpose, either time or moneywise.

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Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
22 Jun 2012
02:26:05pm

re: Buy Now Option

I'm not 100% sure of all the details but when I first started selling on SOR, I listed the 1992 Portuguese version of the 500th Anniversary of Columbus which was a joint issue with the US, Italy, Portugal & Spain. At the time, it had a catalog value of about $6. I listed it for $2. If I were to use a BIN, I probably would have listed the set at $3 (50% of cat). I would have been happy to get $2. I would have been very happy to get $3. It sold for over $10. I actually emailed the buyer because I thought he may have thought I was selling the whole set of joint issues. He wrote me back chuckling that that issue was very difficult to find and he was willing to pay much more for it if bidding had continued. That is why, once bidding begins on an item, then the buy it now should go away.

Most of us are not masters of the stamp market. This is especially true of covers. No one knows what an item will sell for once more than one person is interested in it. This is why I don't use it under any circumstance.

I believe that the Rules and tutorial need to be updated with how this BIN specifically works so there is no confusion to the buyer or seller because it runs differently than every other website that uses BIN.

Oh by the way, the catalog seems to have caught up with the market as the set is now cataloging for about $25.

Bob




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mcrosby

Bring back the gummed stamp
22 Jun 2012
02:30:34pm

re: Buy Now Option

I couldn't disagree more with you Oliver. As a frequent buyer on this site, I like the opportunity to purchase an item at the lowest possible price to me. If an item lists with a starting bid of $1.00 and has a BIN option for $5.00, I prefer to bid with the hopes that I can get that item for $1. But someone can come along and use the BIN and I've lost out without even a chance to bid higher. I know that's a risk I take, but I feel that once a bid is made, the BIN should disappear. If the seller wants to get a "minimum amount" for an item, just have the starting bid begin with that amount. To me, BIN is just like having a store with items for sale at a set amount.
I feel now that unless I'm constantly checking the newly listed items, I will miss out on many opportunities.

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ConnieB

22 Jun 2012
08:27:52pm

Approvals

re: Buy Now Option

Just to explain...

As some have said, the major problems I see with BIN remaining after a bid is placed is
1. BINs that remain in effect open the door to snarking, not by time limit, but by price. And currently buyers can't get history on items that closed, so they wouldn't know who grabbed it up. This goes against the other custom of allowing bidders (buyers) to work out the market price in the open, over time, for as long as it takes. Everyone knows who wins. It's over when it's over.

2. How BIN on SOR works is not clear to new users and members since customarily it operates differently on other sites. Someone may bid without understanding that they could still lose it by a BIN user. This is unfair to unaware buyers. As a possible solution, the Instant Winning Bid terminology someone sugggested would be more fair to the unaware.

3. A bidder on a BIN listing can't reserve the BIN price with a maximum bid. I tried and was forced to pay the BIN price even though no one else was bidding. Tim said this was a bug, but it is unclear how the system may change. There was discussion on preventing bidders from placing a maximum bid at or over the BIN.

For sellers, I think inexperienced collectors may underestimate a good BIN price and there is little chance to learn what the market can bear. If BIN prices are grabbed up quickly, they may be too low. Yes, it is a quick sale and the seller chose to price it, but I can see that it is unfortunate that once bidding starts it must be capped and prevent the seller from a potential gain.

That's what I think on this feature.

As for SOR. I like this site. I will continue to use the auction. I respect and admire the work done on the website, it's offerings, the interchanges, and the great people here. It is especially admirable that so much is done without taking a cut of the auction action. Admirable. That said. There is room for a variety of opinions.

As relatively new to stamp collecting for the last few years since I inherited a big collection, I've learned a lot here. I'm grateful.

I don't think I care that much anymore how the group or the key people go with this. I only write these things because I'm trying to help the overall group and I wonder if there is room for members to contribute ideas and observations as part of the process.

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auldstampguy

Tim
Collector, Webmaster
22 Jun 2012
09:23:09pm

re: Buy Now Option

I have been watching this discussion thinking about the different points everyone are making. I think Roy raised some very good points about the behavior of the program when someone (like Connie) places a bid in excess of the BIN amount.

Connie, if I place a note underneath the textbox where you enter the bid amount to let people know that a bid in excess of the BIN amount will trigger the BIN purchase, would that help reduce the confusion for new members?

Bop P, you mentioned that you thought that I needed to do more documentation. I added a section about the BIN in the Auction Tutorial. I'm very happy to add more. What do you think is needed?

Regards ... Tim.

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Woodstock

22 Jun 2012
10:32:03pm

re: Buy Now Option

It strikes me as strange that a seemingly simple BIN proposal and implementation has altered the quiet, ease, and enjoyment of the SOR club auction feature.

If we continue on this path should we expect to see a note on auction lots warning: "Bid at Your Own Risk."

On the other hand, it shouldn't take too many losses attributable to the BIN system to keep buyers, including myself, from further participation in the auction.

Food for thought...

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23 Jun 2012
12:05:40am

re: Buy Now Option

I really don't understand this discussion.

"It's not fair to the seller".
If the seller is not comfortable putting a price on an item, s/he doesn't have to use BIN, and the question is moot.

"It's not fair to the bidder".
The presence of a BIN should make it clear to the bidder that s/he is free to make a bid, but if someone comes along who is willing to pay the asking price (at any time), the item sells. That's the risk of not taking the asking price and "trying" to get it cheaper. The bidder is welcome to try, but that's the risk they accept.

What's really not fair to the seller, is to allow the first bidder to "trump" the seller's maximum price offer by removing the BIN upon the first bid. There is absolutely no point for a seller to use the feature in this case, except with a minimum bid equal to the BIN, turning it into a fixed price offering.

I know I have not been a seller on Stamporama for a long time. I have been far too busy with my own website and regular weekly eBay auctions, but with these changes, and the bulk uploader, I was actually preparing a long list of items for listing, and I will eventually get to it with this system -- but I won't use BIN if any bidder can make it disappear by placing a minimum bid.

Remember, this BIN feature was requested by buyers and the enthusiasm from buyers for the feature is what led Tim to build it. So allowing the first potential buyer to remove the feature is unfair to the sellers who are willing to cap their price (presumably in exchange for increased volume) in order to offer the requested feature.

Bottom line is:
Seller's don't have to use it.
Buyers don't have to place a bid if they don't like the idea of being "snarked" and don't want to pay the BIN -- just ignore the lot if you don't like the BIN and can't stand the idea of somebody else getting it.
Making BIN's disappear upon the first bid will inevitably result in BIN's being fixed price listings (i.e. minimum = BIN), giving no opportunity for bidding at all.

So maybe these sort of listings aren't "true auction" lots anymore, but so what? Call it what you will. Invent a new name for it, but the design is in response to buyers' requests without harming sellers who are willing to use it.

Roy

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Stampme

23 Jun 2012
12:45:31am

re: Buy Now Option

Roy,
You still haven't sold me on this process and I'm not sure that anyone on here requested a BUY IT NOW feature that would essentially kill bids in an auction by its activation after one or more bids were placed. I've said I'd use it to snap up items I want but it impresses me as completely unfair to the bidder who is now shut out by my Buy It Now power.

The charm of an auction from a psychological point is that nobody really knows what an item will bring: It could benefit the seller or the buyer or both. When the current Buy It Now option is exercised, all of that is lost. It makes me feel like the game is rigged in a sense. The romance or charm of an auction has been replaced with a tool that can in essence pull the rug out from under an honest bidder who enjoys the thrill of the experience.

Buy It now, traditionally is used to fetch a higher price that is acceptable to the seller and a quick button pushing buyer who doesn't want to face the unknown playing field of an auction, before an actual first bid. That seems fair if the auction hasn't started.

But, as I've said, once the bid is placed, the auction starts and the Buy It Now feature should disappear. The paragraph that notes that a bid is a form of a contract is therefore nullified by this feature. The contract in its early stage between first bidder or any number of bidders and the seller has been broken.

Tim, what was the blueprint for introducing this type of Buy It Now feature rather than the more traditional Buy It Now that would be voided by a first bid? Who was in on the discussion to implement this type of Buy It Now? It would have been interesting to garner feedback from members about the type of Buy It Now feature proposed before implementation. Or was there discussion on here and perhaps I've missed it.

Bruce

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23 Jun 2012
01:37:22am

re: Buy Now Option

"it impresses me as completely unfair to the bidder who is now shut out by my Buy It Now power."



But he knew it was there and that it was a possibility. You prefer to give him the power to take away your right to accept the price, just because he was first? An opportunity you will never know you had, because you weren't first?

The only BIN's you will ever see in this scenario are the ones for items that nobody else wants at any price (unless you are the first to see them). If anybody else saw them, and was interested, the first thing they would do is to apply a minimum bid to kill the BIN opportunity for anybody else. If that's the scenario you want, then I stand by my prediction that the only BIN's that sellers will be willing to list will be for "fixed Price" -- i.e. BIN = minimum bid.

Roy





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Woodstock

23 Jun 2012
06:37:51am

re: Buy Now Option

"Buyers don't have to place a bid if they don't like the idea of being "snarked" and don't want to pay the BIN -- just ignore the lot if you don't like the BIN and can't stand the idea of somebody else getting it."



Yes, Roy, that's it exactly! As I have stated previously, if a buyer gets "snarked" more than a few times the odds are there will be a reluctance to bid on future lots carrying the BIN option. One possible result may be that participation in the auction actually may be less than before the BIN was added.

"Remember, this BIN feature was requested by buyers and the enthusiasm from buyers for the feature is what led Tim to build it. "



Ah...excuse me... was a poll taken of the membership on this? I have no recollection of casting a vote.

Truth be told, many members expressed dissatisfaction with the idea itself, and many others pointed out shortcomings. Knowing there was disagreement on the idea wouldn't it have been wiser to poll the membership, or is it that we do not matter?

I'm a buyer, a seller, and a participating member. Where was my opportunity to cast a vote?

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Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
23 Jun 2012
06:52:28am

re: Buy Now Option

Tim,

There is no mention of what happens when someone places a bid on the lot, that there is still a possibility that a BIN can be used. Anyone who has used BIN at another auction website would be confused by it.

Please don't take my comments about the new BIN personal. You are doing a great job and I appreciate your efforts in making this change.

Bob

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youpiao

23 Jun 2012
10:08:26am

re: Buy Now Option

"There is no mention of what happens when someone places a bid on the lot, that there is still a possibility that a BIN can be used. Anyone who has used BIN at another auction website would be confused by it."



That is the crux of my argument in my original post. Buy It Now is being implemented in a manner that goes agains the well-established Buy It Now feature as used on other auction sites. This will cause confusion, at best, and at worst, will result in angry buyers and negative fallout on the site.

"I really don't understand this discussion.
The presence of a BIN should make it clear to the bidder . . ."


"it should . . ." but won't, because the process is different than the one buyers have become accustomed to.

That is why I would call it something different, and provide a prominent "What is this?" link next to the button.

Neither the Buy It Now feature, where the BIN button disappears after the first bid is placed, nor the Instant Winning Bid feature (which I will call it, for the sake of discussion), where it remains available for the duration of the listing, is unfair, per se. Each has its own advantage and disadvantage, for the buyer and the seller.

BIN Advantage: Buyer can purchase item at a fair price immediately, without the hassle of waiting a week or more for the auction to end, and without fear of getting into a bidding war that might drive the final price even higher. Seller gets an immediate sale (and cash flow) at a fair price.

BIN Disadvantage: For the buyer, none. No bid has been placed yet, so an existing bidder is not disappointed. The seller loses the possibility of a windfall gain from a bidding war.

IWB Advantage: For the buyer, the possibility of trumping a bidder at any time during the life of the auction. For the seller, it's the same as with BIN.

IWB Disadvantage: For the buyer (or potential buyer), the possibility of bidding on an item, then losing it to an Instant Winner. For the seller, his upside is limited; there is no possibility of the bidding going above the price he has set.

In essence, the Instant Winning Bid system allows sniping at any point in the auction, not just at the last second. I think that adds a interesting level of excitement to the auction that is not in any way "unfair" to an existing bidder, AS LONG AS bidders know this is how the process works.

To make an analogy: Let's say you put an ad on Craig's list -- "Selling Grandpa's Stamp Collection. $1,000 or best offer. Must sell within 7 days."

You get an e-mail from someoneone offering you $100. You get another e-mail from someone else offering you $200. Then, a third e-mail arrives saying, "Sure, I'll give you a thousand dollars."

Have you just been unfair to the first 2 people who responded? Of course not. You clearly stated that you would take a lower offer only if no one met your asking price by a certain day.

To reiterate (again), I am not against the BIN feature, as implemented currently. I just think it should have a different name (maybe an or-best-offer, "OBO Sale"), and, instead of Instant Winning Bid, call it an Instant Winning Offer, so that potential buyers know this is not the traditional Buy It Now auction.

Cheers to everybody,


Tedski
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CreativeImages

23 Jun 2012
10:14:39am

re: Buy Now Option

As a collector, a seller, a trader, a buyer or as auction participator, I do not think that any unfair advantage should go to any group. While eBay might be a dirty word, their handling of Buy Now Option (BNO) or “Buy It Now” is that once a bid is made, the option goes away. So, the owner of the auctioned item decides to sell or auction the item, with a special feature of the auction to allow the first bidder or buyer to make a bid or to buy the item; either way, the Buy Now Option is gone, the auction continues or it was ended by the item being bought or sold.

I feel that this should be an auction or a store sale, not either or both. A hybrid of the two is unfair to both the buyer and the seller, and each has advantages for both. I feel that StampoRama should be providing a fair and level business playground.





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Mike
23 Jun 2012
11:08:16am

re: Buy Now Option

I'm not sure why this project became so complicated and seems to have upset the Apple cart, when it is a fairly simple process. A stamp auction is just that, a stamp auction. If you see a stamp you want and just "have to have it", then put your bid in on it, and hope you win it. On the other hand, if you "really, really, have to have it", then click on the Buy-It-Now button and auction over, you win. Let's quit crying about all the pros and cons of this new feature, that Tim obviously spent a lot of his free time on, time that he could have spent on his own stamp collection, to implement.

It's very simple folks, use it or don't use it.

Mike

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Stampme

23 Jun 2012
11:27:31am

re: Buy Now Option

Mike,
I respectfully think you miss the point: The Buy It Now option as it is being implemented (The BIN remains in effect until the auction is over and can be used at the last minute to take the item) voids an active auction. There is no option for the bidder who may return and find his item now gone; he has no opportunity to bid further which is the hallmark of an auction. After this happens a few times, I think most people will utter an unmentionable and stop participating in the auction which seems to run contrary to the spirit of Stamporama and most auctions.

Are there a bunch of sellers here who are brooding about their sales because either the item went for a minimum bid or just over? I don't think so. In fact, as was pointed out a few posts ago, most of the respondents to this thread expressed negative comments about BIN or indicated that it should go away once a bid was cast, and unless I've misread the thread, these statements appeared BEFORE the BIN was implemented.


Bruce

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Stampme

23 Jun 2012
11:45:27am

re: Buy Now Option

Roy you wrote:

"The only BIN's you will ever see in this scenario are the ones for items that nobody else wants at any price (unless you are the first to see them). If anybody else saw them, and was interested, the first thing they would do is to apply a minimum bid to kill the BIN opportunity for anybody else. If that's the scenario you want, then I stand by my prediction that the only BIN's that sellers will be willing to list will be for "fixed Price" -- i.e. BIN = minimum bid."

Your scenario does not sound like a friendly club auction; it sounds more like a seller above all and that voids the spirit of an auction. Has the auction previously been functioning the way you describe above? Have sellers been listing with high opening bids? Yes and no. Some have and some haven't. Some get their first bid. Some do not.

Sellers and buyers appeared to be satisfied with our auction without BIN the entire time I've been here anyway. I can see the introduction of BIN with its standard application (it goes away after the first bid) as fair and beneficial to both buyer and seller.

The super BIN we currently have almost seems like a buyer's dream rather than a seller's fortune. Items can be snapped up fast without the auction acting to increase the amount for the seller, especially one in play. Buyers who perhaps have sour grapes because an item had gone up too high in their past auction bidding history can now interrupt the process and grab the item from several bidders usurping the auction process. Does that really seem fair?

I want sellers to make their money but applying the minimum bid does not kill anything other than that option. If the item is something that will spark interest, then auction activity will occur, likely benefiting the seller and the happy buyer. The BIN is perhaps a hopeful expectation of a fast sale. It shouldn't be used to stop an auction in process.

Bruce

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CapeStampMan

Mike
23 Jun 2012
11:58:04am

re: Buy Now Option

Bruce,
It would seem that you have misunderstood my point. My point being, "why must we beat this dead horse ad nauseum". If anyone doesn't like the new feature, then don't use it. It you really want the stamp, don't be afraid to BIN. It's just like the discussions we have continually about not winning the bids on regular auctions, because we don't want to bid a higher price than we think the stamp is worth, to us. If you want it, buy it, if you don't, then don't bid on it. We all have that option. It's very simple, very easy.

Mike

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Tim
Collector, Webmaster
23 Jun 2012
12:15:30pm

re: Buy Now Option

Hi Everyone,
I have added a Buy It Now Help button in the lot details screen where you place a bid. The intent is to provide information about how the Stamporama BIN function works for people who are new to it. Please let me know if it needs expanding.

Regards ... Tim.

Link to Buy It Now Help

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CreativeImages

23 Jun 2012
01:13:55pm

re: Buy Now Option

Tim, thank you for the help button, but the discussion seems to be more about the feature or function. Mike, a.k.a. CapeStampMan, seems to think that when the "BNO" is not used by most, the playing field is fair. I say that it is unethical and unfair. And, StampoRama should not favor any group its practices.

Bruce, a.k.a. Stampme, has taken time to very neutrally explain the two sides of this issue, and then adds comments about the fairness of this feature.

To me, this is an ethical issue; is the item for sale or being auctioned? “BNO” gives an option for the auction to the seller to make sales conditions more favorable for the seller. But, I do not feel that this should benefit the seller for the entire auction, because this is not a real auction.

I do not bid on auctions on StampoRama. This is one issue that bothers me. Other reputable auctions (national, region or local) do not do this. When I feel that a seller creates any unfair aspect to their auction or items, I do just what you suggest – I do not use their auction. I do not have a problem with the “BNO” function; I do not use it or the auction. I am a collector that any auction would like to have as a customer. I spend a lot of time checking about items that I am interested in, then communicating with the seller, then biding on an item. In the past month, I have sent several thousand dollars; in the past year I have purchased very close to fifteen thousand worth of new items for my collect. Once or twice I have used “But It Now” function, and I feel that I got the better of the transaction.

But, I feel it is unfair, and I normally do not use this type of auction.


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oliver_black

23 Jun 2012
02:13:41pm

re: Buy Now Option

It seems to me that if the system would permit a bidder to place a back-up bid that went as high as the "Win it now price" without triggering the immediate close of the auction/sale at that WIN price until the active bidding increments triggered the raises to the WIN price, a major problem could be solved. It is true that an advantage would exist for the first bidder to place a back-up bid at the WIN price, but the reality is, the early bird usually does get the worm. The only disadvantage might be that bidders in certain time zones would "see" the auction item available before other time zones and be able to insert their reserve WIN bid first. Given the international nature of SOR, this cannot be completely avoided, but it could be minimized by having the system set-up to go "online/live" with all newly offered items at the same arbitrary time each day irrespective of when the seller actually uploaded their new offerings to the system.


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StampCommune

23 Jun 2012
02:58:20pm

re: Buy Now Option

Oliver,
No matter when a item is posted, someone, somewhere will be in the time zone not workable for them. In the scenerio that you are proposing, what timezome would be "fair" for EVERONE. No matter when a seller posts a item, it's 12 hours "wrong" for someone else.
With the current setting with the BIN, a bidder has a opportunity to see it, bid on it, or even Buy It, after a initial bid has been placed.

Regarding BIN overall (my opinion):
It has been in use for less than a week and I'm sure there are adjustments may have to be made. Overall, matbe after a time period it will not be the best scenario for SOR and it will be dropped. BUT, as said in previous posts, you don't know until you try it.
Testing of this sort of software takes hours, days, weeks and years to implement with either many voluntees or employees. The only testing (that I am aware of) that Tim has to test SOR software is in a test enviroment that very limited (if any) users can test. Most likely, he's the only one who has access to that system, which in turn he's only one who can test it. SO unless SOR has dedicated volunteers (not the volunteer committee)that can test the test enviroment, which in my opinion would require about 20 - 25 users, the current implementation is the ONLY way to see if something works or not.
With that said...are you willing to test a test system for 10 - 15 hours a week? OR Let Tim implement the changes, let time tell if something is good or bad (for the majority of users) and make the adjustments as needed.

Tim, Roy and ALL the volunteers of SOR: THANK YOU. I TRUST YOUR OPINIONS AND FINAL DESICIONS FOR THE OPERATION OF SOR WEBSITE, NOT JUST THE AUCTION, BUT ALL THE GREAT INFORMATION YOU PROVIDE OUR HOBBY.

Grant Wagoner
~ StampCommune ~

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CapeStampMan

Mike
23 Jun 2012
06:04:43pm

re: Buy Now Option

"Once or twice I have used “But It Now” function, and I feel that I got the better of the transaction.

But, I feel it is unfair, and I normally do not use this type of auction.
"

Walt,

You're just too funny! You don't think it's fair, unless it suits you! LOL! Unfortunately that appears to be the conscensus of most things in the world today. We also have people complaining about the way the auctions are run, but admit they don't even participate in them. I would venture to guess that more than 75% of the members of SOR don't participate in the auctions either, but don't feel a need to make statements of concern about the way it is run, or not run. I'm also sure there a high percentage of members that read the discussion boards, but have no intentions of making a comment. (I'll bet there are several that wish I would just shut up and keep my comments to myself.)

Like Grant, I personally like the way the entire site is run and appeciate all that our volunteers do for us, each and every day. The auction is just a great bonus and we can either choose to participate in it, or not, which ever we choose. I don't have anyone holding a gun to my head making me place bids, but sometimes wish they would do so to stop me from buying some of the stamps I do buy.

Mike

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23 Jun 2012
07:36:34pm

re: Buy Now Option

Oh my goodness!! Have any of you reread your posts on this thread? Aside from Mike, Grant, Roy and Michael (maybe a couple others) I'm going to call the wwwwwambulance on all of you!! By the way, Michael, I used the wwambulance on my husband....worked like a charm and got us both laughing

Ok...let's see what you all have to say about this....
Scenario #1:
Lot listed for $0.20 starting bid, cv of $1.
Buyer #1 bids $0.20 because it looks interesting to him.
Buyer #2 sees the stamp and says "I absolutely MUST have this to complete the XYZ part of my collection" and places a max bid of $5. She assumes she won't pay this but she must have this stamp.
Over the course of the auction Buyers #1, 3, 4, and 5 all try to outbid buyer #2 who ends up, to the frustration of all the other buyers, winning the bid at $1.50.

Scenario #2:
Lot listed for $0.20 with a BIN of $1.10
Buyer #1 bids $0.20
Buyer #2 uses the BIN and buys it for $1.10
The auction is over in a day, the seller is happy, the buyer is happy, no one ends up being frustrated for 7-10 days.

Don't those scenarios seem the same except #2 caused less grief? No one had to cry or whine and the highest bidder won. If the seller picks a BIN that's lower than what the Buyer #2 would have paid, sorry but they should have made their BIN higher. No one regulates if the BIN is high, low or reasonable so sellers, knock yourselves out!

Really, as Mike said, everyone should be thankful for all the work Tim and the VC do an give this a chance. If you like it, use it. If you don't, don't use it!

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michael78651

23 Jun 2012
09:45:19pm

re: Buy Now Option

So, we have a polarization of the membership over the new BIN function. People are mad, because others don't like it and it took the programmer's volunteer time to create the programming, etc. Others are mad, because it is believed that this was thrust upon the site without any forethought. Let me offer this suggestion for the future in a "Lessons Learned" aspect:

1 - suggestion for site improvement is made

2 - SOR programmer (Tim) create a post explaining the suggestion and solicit feedback from the membership over a one week period, which should give most members a chance to read the posts and comment if they want. (I think people here claim that this is a "club", so the club membership should have a say in how things are run, right?)

3 - SOR programmer reviews all the comments and proposes one, two, three, whatever is appropriate, options for the suggested programming change.

4 - SOR membership has one week to comment and/or provide feedback regarding potential problems or missing functionality.

5 - SOR programmer provides final proposal to membership which votes yeah or nay, or votes for the option a member prefers if there are more than one options.

This process will take some time, but do you want to rush through something, change the system and have World War III? What's the rush? Of course not everyone will like the change. Can't please everyone. However, once everyone has had a chance to offer their opinion, comment further and vote for their preference, and the change was made (or not made) based on the majority, then it can be more easily said, "if you don't like it, don't use it". Of course if the people in charge want to go with the opinion, "It's our system, love it or leave it," well then in that case (and I'm not saying this is what is happening) SOR really isn't a club.

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CreativeImages

23 Jun 2012
11:47:50pm

re: Buy Now Option

Mike,

I would like to think that the conversation is about a function, and not about the work of people associated with StampoRama. I do not believe that there are any comments about poor work or poor work standards. When one is in the public view, the recognition and rewards are small for great work. Please do not add words to my comments; I can speak my opinions.

I, for one, participate in auctions, discussions and organizational meetings for organizations that I am interested in. I bring issues to light, and champion their cause. And, when I feel that the feature or issue is not fair, I do not use it.

When I used the “Buy It Now” (probably on eBay), it did not seem fair that I could end an auction that had run for several days, with several days to go; and the bidding was very close to the “Buy It Now” price; and by using the “Buy It Now”, I would not have to wait to see if I won the item, or have it bought out from under me. This happened about four years ago. Since then, I have decided for me, that is a feature that I do not feel is fair; if I know about a feature of a business that I do not like, or do not feel is fair or I do not trust; I wonder that else about the business that I have not found out about, and therefore try not to deal with that organization.

As you say, many do not read the blogs, participate in the auctions, or go on-line to buy things; but I do. I tried to point out that I am above average on my participation, and therefore not part of the group that you described as not participating. And, you are holding a gun to the membership. For some reason you feel that some people in the club (mainly you) desire an advantage to help you cheat some of the less astute members. That is not in keeping with our by-laws or and other stamp collecting groups’ ethics. Every time you explain the BNO function, you comment how you benefit. This club is not just for you. Everybody might be as sharp as you or as fast as you. I did not think that StampoRama was a blood sport.

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Les

24 Jun 2012
01:02:49am

re: Buy Now Option

I buy and sell on here quite frequently. I have also bought and sold on eBay. eBay gets a cut on the final price and now that they forced every one to use PayPal a cut on the payment. It is to their advantage to force the item to auction by deleting the BIN on the first bid. I don't like eBay because I have lost countless items because someone would outbid me at the last minute and unlike a real auction, I could not counteroffer. On eBay the last second bid is always the IWB

SOR does not get a cut, keeps the auction open if the bid comes in just before closing, and now offers me a chance to pay a fair price for an item I might want without worrying about the last second bid. If you don't want to use the BIN then don't. As far as I can tell our BIN is much fairer than eBay's. Buy it now means you can buy it now at the price quoted.

If there is something about SOR that I dislike, then it is the discussion board. To use an old adage "opinions are like... You can finish the sentence.

Les


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Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
24 Jun 2012
10:23:04am

re: Buy Now Option

I really don't think we need to call the wwwwwambulance. People who are disagreeing are trying to give their perspective as to how they think the auction is running. I have been a member of this club for quite some time and have used the auction to both buy and sell since I started. It was one of the main reasons I joined. I have the utmost respect for our Volunteer Committee and I am very glad to call them friends who I have never met. I hope nothing in my posts disagreeing with the way the BIN is working is interpreted as a slight to the committee or Tim our programmer. As a matter of fact, being a programmer, I would think this change would be more challenging to Tim than it would be if the BIN worked like all other auction websites. All he would have to do is remove the BIN and fall into the existing auction logic. Now he has to take into consideration if the bid matches or exceeds the BIN and has to take into consideration proxy bids.

Let me just ask one question... If the BIN was implemented the way it is implemented on every other auction website, would anyone have blinked an eye? I don't think so.

Bob

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Stampme

24 Jun 2012
11:16:15am

re: Buy Now Option

I completely agree with Bob's sentiment.
Bruce

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michael78651

24 Jun 2012
11:43:40am

re: Buy Now Option

Interesting that the "core group" here likes to use the phrase "opinions are like..." when they don't like what the "newer folk" are saying. This is at least the second time I have seen this tactic used. If someone complains, they take it like an insult against "their personal kingdom" that others are permitted to venture into and by using the "opinions are like..." phrase tell them to shut up with their "love it or leave it" attitude. So whose "opinion" matters here? Like I said interesting...

Les, if the auction lot has a BIN, the lot CLOSES when the BIN price is entered or the bidder bids the BIN amount. Therefore, if the auction lot had 30 seconds to go and someone bids the BIN amount, the auction lot will close, the buyer effectively sniping the item.

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CapeStampMan

Mike
24 Jun 2012
11:56:45am

re: Buy Now Option

re: Buy Now Option

Mike,

I would like to think that the conversation is about a function, and not about the work of people associated with StampoRama. I do not believe that there are any comments about poor work or poor work standards. When one is in the public view, the recognition and rewards are small for great work. Please do not add words to my comments; I can speak my opinions.


Wow Walt,
You sure read a lot more into statements than were written. Nary a comment was made or implied about poor work or standards. It seems that the Pot is calling the Kettle black here, sir. I can get my-own-self into trouble without any help from you. I have been known to let my Alligator mouth overload my Canary ass upon more than one occaision. But I do as I say and say as I do, anytime. If I want to use the BIN feature, then it will be done. If on the other hand I just bid for a stamps, that's the way it is. What's fair for one is fair for the other. We all have a choice, "Use it, or Not". What ethical or moral complications should arise from something so simple? If one doesn't like some feature or another, then they don't have to use it. It was mentioned as an option that several people would like to see, it was implemented and now we have a simple choice to make. Many people have already used this function and are probably very happy they did. I know I am and feel good about doing so.




Mike

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GBStamps

24 Jun 2012
12:11:57pm

re: Buy Now Option

Tim

Is there a way that I can opt out of the email notifications relating to this thread. The whole matter is becoming somewhat tedious in my view and I have enough emails arriving in my 'In Box' as it is!

Best Wishes

Tom
Dunfermline

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auldstampguy

Tim
Collector, Webmaster
24 Jun 2012
12:18:45pm

re: Buy Now Option

Hi Tom,
You can turn the emails on or off by Topic in the Members Area. Click here.

Regards ... Tim.

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GBStamps

24 Jun 2012
12:22:26pm

re: Buy Now Option

Many thanks Tim.

Tom

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erudite

24 Jun 2012
12:23:17pm

re: Buy Now Option

My main objection to the BIN addition is that it starts to move the club in the direction of a commercial enterprise. The club was never designed to appease the appetites of people dealing in stamps. It was not designed as a market but philosophically as a place to build one's collection, exchange duplicates and in the auctioning a fair place to pick up reasonably priced items. The collector was the driving force.
The BIN moves the whole process clearly into the laps of the people selling, expands auctioning from a novel, fun experience into a cut throat environment. While it may be good for business, it undermines the spirit of the club. For example I was happily bidding away on an item when 'bang' it was gone......presumably by a BIN arrangement. Frankly, it left me feeling, 'Why bother with bidding?'
The BIN process simply inflates the price, devalues the ethics and spirit of the club and turns it increasingly into 'a merchant's market in the temple'. I oppose it.
Chris

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oliver_black

24 Jun 2012
01:11:01pm

re: Buy Now Option

Grant:

I guess I didn't make my "time zone" point clear enough. I am perfectly aware of the local time variations given the international time zones, and there is no getting around that reality. However, what can be avoided, if desired, is the elimination of some of the randomness that can be unfair to some in the WIN/BIN environment.

I assume, and this assumption may be all wrong, that the timing of the initial posting of item(s) offered for sale is solely under the control of the seller. That is, when they upload the offer, the system accepts it and it is immediately shown on the Auction pages.
Suppose that was changed so that irrespective of when the offer information were uploaded during the last 24 hours, the system would not display it until, say the next 2400 GMT. That way all SOR members worldwide would know that all new offers would appear on the site at a specific local (to them) time. Choosing to be online then would be an individual option, but no SOR member would have an advantage, in the WIN/BIN environment, because they lived in the same time zone as a seller.

If, as a potential buyer, I choose to not take a peek at the Auction pages when I would now know they will initially appear, well, that is my choice, freely made. As it is now, I may not ever know what I am missing.


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24 Jun 2012
01:28:00pm

re: Buy Now Option

Bob - the wwambulance was meant to bring levity to the situation.

As a fairly new member, I love this site and admire many of the members for dozens of reasons. I know I'm a 32 year old woman talking to many older gentlemen, but would it be possible for us to let the BIN ride for several weeks then revisit the issue? It makes me sad to see members arguing like this

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CapeStampMan

Mike
24 Jun 2012
06:15:30pm

re: Buy Now Option

Lisa,

You are reading more into this than should be read and taking it way too seriously. Some people don't understand that they are able to use any part of the SOR site, or none of it. If they choose to use the auction fuction, they can use every part of that or none of it. So far, it's still a free country. Some like to make mountains out of mole hills. Me, I could care less what they do, or think, but do wonder how many times, or ways, it needs to be explained.

And you, young lady, why are you just chatting with "older men"? It might me necessary for me to report you to the GAA (Geriatric Association of America) for discrimination, for doing that. We have a lot of very nice younger and older ladies out there that are also enjoyable to talk to. I know, because I have chatted with several of them and actually got to meet one of them, while she was on vacation down here in the Sunshine State. I do hope you realize that I'm kidding about you just chatting with the men only. Keep up the comments and chatting, we all love to hear from you and read your messages.



Mike

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Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
24 Jun 2012
06:37:40pm

re: Buy Now Option

Lisa - I know you meant no harm. I too am sad to see that there are personal barbs going back and forth about this. It seems to me though that the members who disagree with the current BIN are considered complainers and are being told to take it or leave it. To me, this is such a radical change in the "normal" BIN process, that I can't see how anyone would think that there would not be confusion and some disagreement.

Since I have no plans to use it, I think I have said as much as I can say and we will see how this all turns out. Perhaps I have it all wrong. I still love the auction and plan to keep using it. I don't think there is a better one out there.

I have one more request for Tim. You put a filter for BIN at my request. Could you put an Aution Only filter on the searches?

Thanks,
Bob

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Woodstock

24 Jun 2012
06:46:31pm

re: Buy Now Option

Image Not Found Well said, Bob(Parkinlot). My sentiments exactly.

Tim, I would also like to see an "auction only" filter if possible.

Image Not Found

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Stampaholic

25 Jun 2012
10:29:31am

Auctions

re: Buy Now Option

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
25 Jun 2012
10:50:28am

Auctions

re: Buy Now Option

It’s time for me to reply.

I asked the Volunteer Committee to chat further about this. When I first broached this with them, there was mixed reviews of BIN in general, and slightly less for the way I suggested it (BIN that stays open, until chosen or the BIN price is reached), but there was sufficient acceptance that I thought it worthwhile to move forward. There was not unanimous approval of BIN under either approach, although there was slightly more for the traditional BIN option. Today, the mix is roughly the same, with several in favor, several against, one of no opinion, but more for it than against.

This idea was first broached on 5.25, so we'd been talking about it for three weeks before implementing it, and we've continued more than another week post implementation.

There are mixed opinions here on the DB about it; some are enthusiastic, some hate it, some are willing to see what happens, most members have not made any comments. Some of the voices are those of people who don't participate in the auctions or who have said they don't want to use BIN in any form. I have read all the comments, and have given a lot of thought to the comments and the form their expression took. This is the fourth time I've written a comprehensive response, and the first time I'm actually posting one.

I don't believe any of us on the VC have a "take it or leave it attitude." If there are multiple approaches to a thing, someone won't get his way. That's simple math, not an ethos.

But we have given folks plenty of time to explain their positions for or against it as well as explain their ideas of the benefits of this and other systems. Tim and I have read every post; I've read many of them multiple times; and, for the most part, most commentators have stayed solely with the issue at hand and refrained from gratuitous shots, although the occasional rolling of eyes comes through just as clearly as its writer intended.

We try to build consensus, but we don’t put things to a vote. I can assure you we don’t do things unilaterally, nor do we do things cavalierly.

I know this approach to BIN is different from other auctions. Many things are different from other auctions, including our aversion to sniping, our abandoning any kind of evaluation system, the absence of any fees, its tie-in to the DB, and an auctioneer who can be contacted and responds in the event of a problem real or perceived. Not everyone likes all of these differences, with the 10H rule being the one with the greatest number of dissenters. But I, for one, like many of our differences, and I appreciate just how different we are. Of course, I have reservations about BIN myself: it’s not got universal support; and, by its very nature, mirrors an aspect of the sniping I’ve tried hard to kill. I’ve already used it as a buyer, happily so, and I’m among the most cautious (read “cheap”) bidders here.

So, I’d like to give this experiment a full month trial run. I don’t know how to measure success or failure, exactly, because there’s no controlled experiment here, no control group, and no way to determine causality. Immediately after launching the new BIN, we topped 6,000 lots for the first time ever; we’re back to our normal 2,000. The only thing I’m sure of is that BIN has caused a lot of activity on the discussion board; and I’d like to close that off for a while and just let BIN function.

David, the auctioneer

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CapeStampMan

Mike
25 Jun 2012
06:00:20pm

re: Buy Now Option

David,

You said, we’re back to our normal 2,000. BUT you forgot to mention that Grant hadn't shown up for work yet!!!! LOL

I agree with you 100%, we must give it a fair trial, but it certainly seems like a winner so far.

Mike

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John Macco

Astrophilatelist- Space Cover Collector
26 Jun 2012
06:24:02am

re: Buy Now Option

I have been following this discussion with great interest. I may decide to use it or I may not use it. We have choices. We have a choice. I may add in any other auction sites I've used, once BIN was chosen, lot was immediately sold.

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
26 Jun 2012
08:17:10am

Auctions

re: Buy Now Option

John, it will work the same here: when BIN is chosen, the lot is sold.

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Stampme

26 Jun 2012
11:11:38am

re: Buy Now Option

Hi John,

I'm curious, in the various auction sites you mention, was the BIN used after the auction had bids cast? This is the first time I've seen this type of BIN used that overrides existing bids.

Bruce

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Avi

06 Jul 2012
02:14:27pm

re: Buy Now Option

Oh!!!! Please! is only just another feature in our Auction!
Why so many people with "yes","no" and profound philophies is jut a HOBBY.
Thank you to Tim and the whole staff for all the CHOICES you give memebers.
Peace and Health, when you lose either one then you know the "reality" of Life.
Just my opinbion,
Avi

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Woodstock

07 Jul 2012
11:20:28am

re: Buy Now Option

I have found that it is actually quite simple navigating in the auction as a result of the BIN notation
now showing with the listing: If it's there I skip over the lot.

No stress, no problems, no bid!

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musicman

APS #213005
07 Jul 2012
08:51:05pm

re: Buy Now Option

My opinion;

I have no problem with the option - I have used it often and no seller has complained that included it in their lot postings.

It all comes down to;

If you like it - use it.......if not - don't.

Seems simple enough.




Randy

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