Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
10:12:37pm
I am having trouble with a couple things and I know you all can help!
My first question is what is the difference between car rose and rose as referred to in the Scott catalog? Are there pictures someone can post for me or pictures already on this site that I can refer to that will help?
My second question is about rouletted perfs. I think I know the difference between those and the common punched hole perfs but does anyone have a picture so I know for sure? Are there certain countries and/or time periods that generally contain stamps with rouletted perfs?
Thank you all in advance!
P.S. I'm not a fan of the different subtle color varieties! It's a difficult task!
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11:15:00pm
Hi Lisa,
Here are two stamps Scott calls "Dark Carmine" on the left, and "Carmine Rose" on the right.
Canada Scot #241 and 241a respectively.
Here is one of my favourite sets of rouletted stamps.
The essence of rouletting is that no paper is removed. The paper is just slit in "dashes" for standard rouletting. See this lovely block:
There is also "serpentine" roulette, which is less common, but early Finland is a good example, where the slicing of the paper is done in waves, rather than straight lines.
This pair shows it even better -- look between the stamps:
Finland is an extreme example. Other serpentine roulettes do not show as extravagant waves".
A third type of roulette is the "Serrate Roulette". This can be found on German inflation issues of 1923:
Note the pattern like pinking shears.
Hope that helps.
Roy
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Good questions Lisa, and excellent job Roy with the explanation. I must say I find the carmine and carmine rose very hard to tell the difference, especially on older warn stamps when you don't have a good example to compare it to.
Regards ... Tim.
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Let's not forget early Mexico stamps... they couldn't print a stamp on a piece of paper worth it's value (I can't tell you how many of my Mexican stamps are so BADLY faded due to the crappy printing processes they used early on.. many of my older ones are nearly beyond recognition.), and apparently they wanted to protect the stamps so much that they did nothing more than put "pinholes" in for their rouletting style performations... which really makes a mess of their stamps when you get their hands on stamps that were separated and used via mail.
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I guess I'm getting old because I really don't see a difference in color between the two of those stamps.
---Pat
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06:43:09am
@DaSaintFan
Mexico issued a lot of rouletted stamps too. Thanks for reminding me of one of my favourite covers in my Mexico collection (see below). But just to keep philatelic terms straight for our newbies, the type of separation that is a series of pin-pricks through the paper is known as a "pin perf". And you are right, it is probably one of the worst separation methods ever invented for maintaining the integrity of the stamp! (But ranks after the serpentine roulette of Finland).
I don't have a good Mexican example, but Barbados and Trinidad used it on their early stamps:
Now here's the Mexican cover I haven't thought of in a while:
Thanks for giving me a reason to let it see the light of day again!
Roy
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06:50:32am
@PDougherty999
There is definitely a difference, but this is why I keep trying to send the message that collectors shouldn't try to differentiate shades, or slight differences in colour from the description in catalogues until they have actually seen the differences, in person, between two properly identified stamps.
I did a search for "Canada 241*" on eBay, and found several examples of 241 (dk. carmine) being offered as 241a (rose carmine), and vice versa.
Once you know the difference (and I have handled enough of this particular stamp to be able to tell the difference at a glance, even before my morning coffee), you can even differentiate from a good scan. (accent on "good").
If you have some "unknowns", scan the two stamps together in the same scan, and post them here. We'll give it a shot!
Roy
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I forgot there was a "pin perf" term... I'd only ever seen them named as "roulettes" as well..
(of course, for me the issue is identify "engraved" vs. "printed" stamps... those my eyes aren't so good as identifying...)
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OK, on my laptop at work I doo see a slight difference. Maybe I should turn up the brightness on my screens at home.
---Pat
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09:13:42am
I will say that the difference to my eye, in person, is greater than I see in the results from the scanner. Again, it confirms that the scanner does not "see" the same as eyes! (and not everybody's eyes see the same thing.)
Roy
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Roy,
Your examples are outstanding and easy to identify and very informative. Several members I know are color blind and this could be a nightmare for them. I have a color chart which is not as accurate as your examples.........Thanks.
Perry
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I can barely make out a difference. The one on the left looks a tiny bit redder, the one on the right a tiny bit pinker. But if I wasn't told there was a difference, I wouldn't have noticed.
A scanner's "sight" is trichromatic just like the human eye, and a good scanner is designed to try to match the human eye's response, but it's not a perfect match. Likewise, the RGB of a monitor is meant to mimic the eye's three receptors, but it's extremely approximate, and colour fidelity on a monitor is very difficult to achieve.
Personally, I used to be interested in shade differences, but I lost interest a long time ago. It's more trouble than it's worth IMO.
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09:24:19pm
Roy,
That is a fabulous tutorial! Thank you so much!! I can tell the difference between the two shades and you cleared up a lot of my perf issues. These Greek stamps that I'm trying to identify are a Serrate Roulette, right? I never would have known this without you! Please excuse the poor quality of my stamps as they picture taken with my phone and not a scan.
I will add your post to my collection of tutorials and ID helpers that I have found on SOR. Thank you again!!
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You are correct. The stamps are serrate rouletted.
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10:09:11pm
You're right -- that's what they are, although I can't be sure from the picture, the red airmail overprint could be the perf 13.5x12.5 version of the stamp. Can't tell from the picture for sure, but the perfs look a little different. You will certainly be able to tell close up.
I'm glad I included the German example, because that's not the first thing people think of when they think "roulette". Normally, one thinks only about the straight line version of the Chile and Mexico examples.
Roy
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No, Roy, the airmail stamp is rouletted as well.
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"Personally, I used to be interested in shad[quote]e differences, but I lost interest a long time ago. It's more trouble than it's worth IMO."
it actually depends to me George... there are certain stamps where there's a slight difference.. (the Belgium Lion/coat of arms/drapery stamp for instance, is an example) where I really want all the shades I can find
fortunately there are only a few that are truly different, or at least according to my eyes.) (the 50 blues for instance, although it may be more of a printing style difference?)...
http://www.csgdesign.com.au/uploads/treasures/stamps/Belgium/BEL002c.jpg
and then there are other stamps like the one above (even from the same country - different value than the one in the link) that I really could care less about....
but I know the 1'50F of the above had a couple of "close" shades... (and I only know this because I managed to get a pair of them at some point) but I'll be honest... I really have never been in the mood to getting all the shades.
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Lisa,
I picked up a color guide from a stamp dealer for about $6. Scott also has a specialized color guide for United States Stamps. Color guides are certainly not the perfect solution to the problem, but they can help. In the case of US stamps, Scott's color naming convention is really a copy of the Bureau of Engraving and Printing names given to the inks used in the production.
If you have a potentially valuable stamp that can only be differentiated by color, you should have it expertized. Otherwise, just compare it to known examples. You might want to consider building a reference collection using damaged copies of stamps known to have that particular shade.
My rule of thumb is to use perforations, size, watermarks and then color to differentiate stamps that have the same faces.
Hope this helps.
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Scott's color guide for US stamps is very limited in scope for just a few stamps from the 19th century. However, it does include a color chip for Pigeon Blood Pink!
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It is during our darkest moments that we must focus to see the light. - Aristotle Onassis
26 Apr 2012
10:12:37pm
Hi all,
I am having trouble with a couple things and I know you all can help!
My first question is what is the difference between car rose and rose as referred to in the Scott catalog? Are there pictures someone can post for me or pictures already on this site that I can refer to that will help?
My second question is about rouletted perfs. I think I know the difference between those and the common punched hole perfs but does anyone have a picture so I know for sure? Are there certain countries and/or time periods that generally contain stamps with rouletted perfs?
Thank you all in advance!
P.S. I'm not a fan of the different subtle color varieties! It's a difficult task!
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BuckaCover.com - 80,000 covers priced 60c to $1.50 - Easy browsing 500 categories
26 Apr 2012
11:15:00pm
re: Newbie help Identifying Colours/Shades and Perforation types
Hi Lisa,
Here are two stamps Scott calls "Dark Carmine" on the left, and "Carmine Rose" on the right.
Canada Scot #241 and 241a respectively.
Here is one of my favourite sets of rouletted stamps.
The essence of rouletting is that no paper is removed. The paper is just slit in "dashes" for standard rouletting. See this lovely block:
There is also "serpentine" roulette, which is less common, but early Finland is a good example, where the slicing of the paper is done in waves, rather than straight lines.
This pair shows it even better -- look between the stamps:
Finland is an extreme example. Other serpentine roulettes do not show as extravagant waves".
A third type of roulette is the "Serrate Roulette". This can be found on German inflation issues of 1923:
Note the pattern like pinking shears.
Hope that helps.
Roy
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re: Newbie help Identifying Colours/Shades and Perforation types
Good questions Lisa, and excellent job Roy with the explanation. I must say I find the carmine and carmine rose very hard to tell the difference, especially on older warn stamps when you don't have a good example to compare it to.
Regards ... Tim.
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re: Newbie help Identifying Colours/Shades and Perforation types
Let's not forget early Mexico stamps... they couldn't print a stamp on a piece of paper worth it's value (I can't tell you how many of my Mexican stamps are so BADLY faded due to the crappy printing processes they used early on.. many of my older ones are nearly beyond recognition.), and apparently they wanted to protect the stamps so much that they did nothing more than put "pinholes" in for their rouletting style performations... which really makes a mess of their stamps when you get their hands on stamps that were separated and used via mail.
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re: Newbie help Identifying Colours/Shades and Perforation types
I guess I'm getting old because I really don't see a difference in color between the two of those stamps.
---Pat
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BuckaCover.com - 80,000 covers priced 60c to $1.50 - Easy browsing 500 categories
27 Apr 2012
06:43:09am
re: Newbie help Identifying Colours/Shades and Perforation types
@DaSaintFan
Mexico issued a lot of rouletted stamps too. Thanks for reminding me of one of my favourite covers in my Mexico collection (see below). But just to keep philatelic terms straight for our newbies, the type of separation that is a series of pin-pricks through the paper is known as a "pin perf". And you are right, it is probably one of the worst separation methods ever invented for maintaining the integrity of the stamp! (But ranks after the serpentine roulette of Finland).
I don't have a good Mexican example, but Barbados and Trinidad used it on their early stamps:
Now here's the Mexican cover I haven't thought of in a while:
Thanks for giving me a reason to let it see the light of day again!
Roy
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this post
BuckaCover.com - 80,000 covers priced 60c to $1.50 - Easy browsing 500 categories
27 Apr 2012
06:50:32am
re: Newbie help Identifying Colours/Shades and Perforation types
@PDougherty999
There is definitely a difference, but this is why I keep trying to send the message that collectors shouldn't try to differentiate shades, or slight differences in colour from the description in catalogues until they have actually seen the differences, in person, between two properly identified stamps.
I did a search for "Canada 241*" on eBay, and found several examples of 241 (dk. carmine) being offered as 241a (rose carmine), and vice versa.
Once you know the difference (and I have handled enough of this particular stamp to be able to tell the difference at a glance, even before my morning coffee), you can even differentiate from a good scan. (accent on "good").
If you have some "unknowns", scan the two stamps together in the same scan, and post them here. We'll give it a shot!
Roy
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re: Newbie help Identifying Colours/Shades and Perforation types
I forgot there was a "pin perf" term... I'd only ever seen them named as "roulettes" as well..
(of course, for me the issue is identify "engraved" vs. "printed" stamps... those my eyes aren't so good as identifying...)
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re: Newbie help Identifying Colours/Shades and Perforation types
OK, on my laptop at work I doo see a slight difference. Maybe I should turn up the brightness on my screens at home.
---Pat
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BuckaCover.com - 80,000 covers priced 60c to $1.50 - Easy browsing 500 categories
27 Apr 2012
09:13:42am
re: Newbie help Identifying Colours/Shades and Perforation types
I will say that the difference to my eye, in person, is greater than I see in the results from the scanner. Again, it confirms that the scanner does not "see" the same as eyes! (and not everybody's eyes see the same thing.)
Roy
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re: Newbie help Identifying Colours/Shades and Perforation types
Roy,
Your examples are outstanding and easy to identify and very informative. Several members I know are color blind and this could be a nightmare for them. I have a color chart which is not as accurate as your examples.........Thanks.
Perry
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this post
re: Newbie help Identifying Colours/Shades and Perforation types
I can barely make out a difference. The one on the left looks a tiny bit redder, the one on the right a tiny bit pinker. But if I wasn't told there was a difference, I wouldn't have noticed.
A scanner's "sight" is trichromatic just like the human eye, and a good scanner is designed to try to match the human eye's response, but it's not a perfect match. Likewise, the RGB of a monitor is meant to mimic the eye's three receptors, but it's extremely approximate, and colour fidelity on a monitor is very difficult to achieve.
Personally, I used to be interested in shade differences, but I lost interest a long time ago. It's more trouble than it's worth IMO.
Login to Like
this post
It is during our darkest moments that we must focus to see the light. - Aristotle Onassis
27 Apr 2012
09:24:19pm
re: Newbie help Identifying Colours/Shades and Perforation types
Roy,
That is a fabulous tutorial! Thank you so much!! I can tell the difference between the two shades and you cleared up a lot of my perf issues. These Greek stamps that I'm trying to identify are a Serrate Roulette, right? I never would have known this without you! Please excuse the poor quality of my stamps as they picture taken with my phone and not a scan.
I will add your post to my collection of tutorials and ID helpers that I have found on SOR. Thank you again!!
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09:36:18pm
re: Newbie help Identifying Colours/Shades and Perforation types
You are correct. The stamps are serrate rouletted.
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BuckaCover.com - 80,000 covers priced 60c to $1.50 - Easy browsing 500 categories
27 Apr 2012
10:09:11pm
re: Newbie help Identifying Colours/Shades and Perforation types
You're right -- that's what they are, although I can't be sure from the picture, the red airmail overprint could be the perf 13.5x12.5 version of the stamp. Can't tell from the picture for sure, but the perfs look a little different. You will certainly be able to tell close up.
I'm glad I included the German example, because that's not the first thing people think of when they think "roulette". Normally, one thinks only about the straight line version of the Chile and Mexico examples.
Roy
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12:23:25am
re: Newbie help Identifying Colours/Shades and Perforation types
No, Roy, the airmail stamp is rouletted as well.
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re: Newbie help Identifying Colours/Shades and Perforation types
"Personally, I used to be interested in shad[quote]e differences, but I lost interest a long time ago. It's more trouble than it's worth IMO."
it actually depends to me George... there are certain stamps where there's a slight difference.. (the Belgium Lion/coat of arms/drapery stamp for instance, is an example) where I really want all the shades I can find
fortunately there are only a few that are truly different, or at least according to my eyes.) (the 50 blues for instance, although it may be more of a printing style difference?)...
http://www.csgdesign.com.au/uploads/treasures/stamps/Belgium/BEL002c.jpg
and then there are other stamps like the one above (even from the same country - different value than the one in the link) that I really could care less about....
but I know the 1'50F of the above had a couple of "close" shades... (and I only know this because I managed to get a pair of them at some point) but I'll be honest... I really have never been in the mood to getting all the shades.
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re: Newbie help Identifying Colours/Shades and Perforation types
Lisa,
I picked up a color guide from a stamp dealer for about $6. Scott also has a specialized color guide for United States Stamps. Color guides are certainly not the perfect solution to the problem, but they can help. In the case of US stamps, Scott's color naming convention is really a copy of the Bureau of Engraving and Printing names given to the inks used in the production.
If you have a potentially valuable stamp that can only be differentiated by color, you should have it expertized. Otherwise, just compare it to known examples. You might want to consider building a reference collection using damaged copies of stamps known to have that particular shade.
My rule of thumb is to use perforations, size, watermarks and then color to differentiate stamps that have the same faces.
Hope this helps.
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02:29:04pm
re: Newbie help Identifying Colours/Shades and Perforation types
Scott's color guide for US stamps is very limited in scope for just a few stamps from the 19th century. However, it does include a color chip for Pigeon Blood Pink!
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10:49:21am
re: Newbie help Identifying Colours/Shades and Perforation types
bump
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