Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Thanks!
Dave
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Hi Dave, could you show a scan of this please?
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Thanks once again! I'm attaching a scan of the front and back to this reply so you can see both.
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I don't have my catalogs available where I am right now. However, Scott has moved many of the minor varieties from the Standard Catalogs to the Scott Classic Catalog (need to justify the catalog not being just a copy of the Standard Catalogs). Have you looked there? Also, Scott doesn't list alot of minor varieties. Stanley Gibbons has a decent Russia Catalog that lists many more minor varieties than Scott.
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Michael,
No, I don't have a copy of that catalog..just the plain Jane variety Scott Volume 1. I have looked back a number of years though...and haven't found it in any of them. I did check my 1993-94 Michel catalog and it's not listed there either. Has me wondering...you know?
Thanks,
Dave
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06:01:11pm
Dave, you presented us with an interesting opportunity to study the catalog! Can't say I have looked at this Russian BOB stuff recently.
According to Scott, Russia #54 (your "base" stamp) is not included in the First China Offices set with the CHINA overprint, where it would belong. While catalogs DO make errors, and leave things out, it seems that in a clear-cut case like this, 99% of the time they are right.
So, my highest probability scenario is that the overprint is fake, and was applied by a careless faker who probably didn't care about getting the correct underlying stamp. Check to make sure that the overprint is not on top of the cancel.
Second, much lower probability, is that you actually have a lovely copy of a stamp that is not cataloged. The only solution in this case is to get the stamp into the hands of a Russian expert (i.e. at a stamp show) who has seen hundreds, both good and bad, in order to verify your opinion.
Roy
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06:05:25pm
P.S. the other responses came in while I was writing my own. I was using the 2011 Scott Classic Specialized -- the one mentioned above.
Secondly, there IS an overprinted set with horizontal laid lines, it's just that the 7r is not included. This means the 7r with a genuine overprint would be a major listing, not a minor variety.
Roy
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Hi Roy,
That's a real possibility. I did take a close look at it just now under a high power magnifying glass and the overprint is definitely under the cancellation. I'll take your advice though..and have a Russian expert look at it just to make sure.
I appreciate the info and the advice!
Thanks,
Dave
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Hi Dave,
This is an intriguing stamp. I assume it's a forged overprint as the 7 ruble laid paper isn't listed in SG or Ceresa and there are many forgeries.
Can you measure the angle of the overprint to the bottom edge of the design? It's looks too shallow to me but that might be the result of the scan.
Similarly, are the I and T letters of the overprint really leaning over to the left as they appear on my monitor? They shouldn't be.
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Hi Nigel,
It looks like the overprint is at a 45 degree angle measuring from corner to corner. I think the leaning letters is the scan...they aren't leaning on the stamp itself. It would figure...darned technology! I am thinking that maybe I will contact the APS and see if they can refer me to an expert for an opinion. It's probably fake..but you never can tell. I have a block of 4 of the Philippines Japanese Occupation Food Production semi-postals proofs on cardboard. The APS won't even discuss those....but the Philatelic Foundation issued a certificate with no problem. I guess you never can tell.
Dave
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Dr Ceresa in his handbooks says this KITAI overprint should be at 57° to the horizontal.
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07:12:59pm
Using my screen protractor (available free) I measured 50.8 degrees plus or minus 0.5 degrees.
I tried to get a screen shot of it in operation, but it's an "always on top" application, and my screen capture function ignored it. Maybe I'll figure out a way some other time.
The plot thickens ...
Roy
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Nigel and Roy,
It does indeed thicken...at any rate it's an interesting exercise. Thanks for all the interesting input on this. I really appreciate it.
Dave
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03:14:27pm
I have a copy of what, on the surface, appears to be Russia Offices in China - Scott # 22...only it has horizontally laid paper rather than the vertically laid paper it is supposed to have. I have compared it to the correct copy, which I also have. Does anyone have any idea of what the correct catalog number should be? I don't find a horizontally laid paper variety listed anyplace.
Thanks!
Dave
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re: Russia Offices in China: unlisted stamp? real?
Hi Dave, could you show a scan of this please?
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05:42:50pm
re: Russia Offices in China: unlisted stamp? real?
Thanks once again! I'm attaching a scan of the front and back to this reply so you can see both.
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05:52:53pm
re: Russia Offices in China: unlisted stamp? real?
I don't have my catalogs available where I am right now. However, Scott has moved many of the minor varieties from the Standard Catalogs to the Scott Classic Catalog (need to justify the catalog not being just a copy of the Standard Catalogs). Have you looked there? Also, Scott doesn't list alot of minor varieties. Stanley Gibbons has a decent Russia Catalog that lists many more minor varieties than Scott.
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06:00:06pm
re: Russia Offices in China: unlisted stamp? real?
Michael,
No, I don't have a copy of that catalog..just the plain Jane variety Scott Volume 1. I have looked back a number of years though...and haven't found it in any of them. I did check my 1993-94 Michel catalog and it's not listed there either. Has me wondering...you know?
Thanks,
Dave
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18 Apr 2012
06:01:11pm
re: Russia Offices in China: unlisted stamp? real?
Dave, you presented us with an interesting opportunity to study the catalog! Can't say I have looked at this Russian BOB stuff recently.
According to Scott, Russia #54 (your "base" stamp) is not included in the First China Offices set with the CHINA overprint, where it would belong. While catalogs DO make errors, and leave things out, it seems that in a clear-cut case like this, 99% of the time they are right.
So, my highest probability scenario is that the overprint is fake, and was applied by a careless faker who probably didn't care about getting the correct underlying stamp. Check to make sure that the overprint is not on top of the cancel.
Second, much lower probability, is that you actually have a lovely copy of a stamp that is not cataloged. The only solution in this case is to get the stamp into the hands of a Russian expert (i.e. at a stamp show) who has seen hundreds, both good and bad, in order to verify your opinion.
Roy
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18 Apr 2012
06:05:25pm
re: Russia Offices in China: unlisted stamp? real?
P.S. the other responses came in while I was writing my own. I was using the 2011 Scott Classic Specialized -- the one mentioned above.
Secondly, there IS an overprinted set with horizontal laid lines, it's just that the 7r is not included. This means the 7r with a genuine overprint would be a major listing, not a minor variety.
Roy
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06:08:24pm
re: Russia Offices in China: unlisted stamp? real?
Hi Roy,
That's a real possibility. I did take a close look at it just now under a high power magnifying glass and the overprint is definitely under the cancellation. I'll take your advice though..and have a Russian expert look at it just to make sure.
I appreciate the info and the advice!
Thanks,
Dave
Login to Like
this post
re: Russia Offices in China: unlisted stamp? real?
Hi Dave,
This is an intriguing stamp. I assume it's a forged overprint as the 7 ruble laid paper isn't listed in SG or Ceresa and there are many forgeries.
Can you measure the angle of the overprint to the bottom edge of the design? It's looks too shallow to me but that might be the result of the scan.
Similarly, are the I and T letters of the overprint really leaning over to the left as they appear on my monitor? They shouldn't be.
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06:36:25pm
re: Russia Offices in China: unlisted stamp? real?
Hi Nigel,
It looks like the overprint is at a 45 degree angle measuring from corner to corner. I think the leaning letters is the scan...they aren't leaning on the stamp itself. It would figure...darned technology! I am thinking that maybe I will contact the APS and see if they can refer me to an expert for an opinion. It's probably fake..but you never can tell. I have a block of 4 of the Philippines Japanese Occupation Food Production semi-postals proofs on cardboard. The APS won't even discuss those....but the Philatelic Foundation issued a certificate with no problem. I guess you never can tell.
Dave
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this post
re: Russia Offices in China: unlisted stamp? real?
Dr Ceresa in his handbooks says this KITAI overprint should be at 57° to the horizontal.
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BuckaCover.com - 80,000 covers priced 60c to $1.50 - Easy browsing 500 categories
18 Apr 2012
07:12:59pm
re: Russia Offices in China: unlisted stamp? real?
Using my screen protractor (available free) I measured 50.8 degrees plus or minus 0.5 degrees.
I tried to get a screen shot of it in operation, but it's an "always on top" application, and my screen capture function ignored it. Maybe I'll figure out a way some other time.
The plot thickens ...
Roy
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07:36:06am
re: Russia Offices in China: unlisted stamp? real?
Nigel and Roy,
It does indeed thicken...at any rate it's an interesting exercise. Thanks for all the interesting input on this. I really appreciate it.
Dave
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