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General Philatelic/Supplies, Literature & Software : Finding The Watermarks of Stamps on Covers

 

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rtvstamps
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09 Mar 2012
03:09:39pm

Auctions - Approvals
Hello friends!

How you check the watermark in stamps adhered to the cover, specially of the Classic Era?

Regards!
Rodolfo
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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

09 Mar 2012
03:16:15pm

Auctions
re: Finding The Watermarks of Stamps on Covers

There's a device called the Morely Bright that can sometimes do this. My experience with it was spotty at best.

I works on the principle of goop falling into the crevices where the watermark is. The goop is contained in a thin flexible plastic sleeve that's placed over the stamp and rubbed until the good has settled.

In practice, this also picks up all the various undulations of paper and the rises caused by flaps, etc. And the devices have a shelf-life of about a decade before they the goop is no longer sufficiently fluid to be useful.

For stamps whose watermarks would normally be easily discernible, it sometimes picked it up on paper; for many others, it just didn't work at all.

There are also some who will remove the stamp from the envelope, immerse it in fluid, and after determining the WMK, reattach it. I can't imagine doing that myself, but it is done.

David

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michael78651

09 Mar 2012
04:41:17pm
re: Finding The Watermarks of Stamps on Covers

Yeah, not an easy thing to do. You can try to apply watermark fluid to the top of the stamp and maybe you can see a watermark. You can shine a light through the envelope and hope that that might work. Neither of these will work so well if the paper the stamp is on is thick.

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cdj1122
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..

10 Mar 2012
10:37:22am
re: Finding The Watermarks of Stamps on Covers

" .....spotty at best. ..."

Twenty years ago before the feeling in my fingers became a problem it was occasionally "spotty", for sure, I can only imagine the mess I would make with it now.

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musicman
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APS #213005

10 Mar 2012
11:02:13am
re: Finding The Watermarks of Stamps on Covers

I own a Morley-Bright Inst-a-tector watermark detector;

They make 2 types - the roll-a-tector is the other....I have not used that one.

The Inst-a-tector works well for most countries except a few, one being US;

With slow and deliberate practice you can make it work on SOME US issues, however;

I have read comments by some who attempt to use it on stamps on cover, which I can't imagine it working since the watermarks are obviously on the backs of the stamps - and I HAVE tried;

I would recommend it to anyone who wished to identify watermarks, but if you want to use it mainly for US issues I would tell you that you MUST HAVE TIME AND PATIENCE to get accustomed to its 'peculiarities';

As David mentioned earlier, the sachet with the blue fluid does tend to 'evaporate' over time - I've had mine for approx. 6 yrs. now and its time to replace the sachet (thats what they call it)....M-B sells the replacements individually;

One thing I would LIKE to try but never have - and I do not know of anyone who has owned one - is the Signo-scope...its an electronic watermark detector. If anyone here has ever used one, I would certainly be interested in hearing from you!

Hope this info helps in some way....any questions, please don't hesitate to ask me - happy to answer all!




Randy

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Tom

10 Mar 2012
01:12:47pm
re: Finding The Watermarks of Stamps on Covers

I have an Electronic water mark detector but cannot highly reccomend it. I still use lighter fluid and a water mark tray 95% of the time. When I have trouble with this method I use the electronic--I can then make out the watermark about 25% of the time..
It compresses the stamp and shines a light through it. Works good on those marks easy to see. The light has reostat that lets you change the intensity.
Final words, it works but not 100% and it is more bother than the lighter fluid methon.
Tom C

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auldstampguy
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Tim
Collector, Webmaster

10 Mar 2012
04:07:54pm
re: Finding The Watermarks of Stamps on Covers

I have had quite good success scanning the stamp with a black background. Change the color to gray scale and adjust the contrast. It makes the watermark stand out quite well.

Tim.

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Logistical1
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10 Mar 2012
08:27:18pm
re: Finding The Watermarks of Stamps on Covers

Tim does is this method work when using detector fluid or a dry stamp?

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auldstampguy
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Tim
Collector, Webmaster

10 Mar 2012
08:49:45pm
re: Finding The Watermarks of Stamps on Covers

I have only tried it with a dry stamp. I have a house full of ladies with very sensitive noses and no interest in stamps so I haven't tried the chemical approach that works for many.

Regards ... Tim.

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Stampme

18 Mar 2012
03:03:42pm
re: Finding The Watermarks of Stamps on Covers

Hi Tim,
Will you explain in a little greater detail about the scanning method you mention?

For example:

Is the stamp placed face down on the black background?

What dpi do you scan the stamp?

When you say you adjust the contrast, what does that mean specifically?

Are you doing anything else?

Thanks,
Bruce

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auldstampguy
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Tim
Collector, Webmaster

18 Mar 2012
10:26:34pm
re: Finding The Watermarks of Stamps on Covers

Hi Bruce,
I place the stamp with the back down on the glass bed of the scanner and place some black cardboard over the stamp. I set the resolution on about 300 dpi, that seems to work for me. I set the scanner on grayscale rather than color. Then after the scan is made, I adjust the contrast which adds to the black shades or takes away from the black shades. I find if I play with the contrast I can get enough of the watermark to show to enable me to work it out. Once you get part of the watermark coming out it is often a process of elimination to workout which of the watermarks it cannot be. By this I mean, if you are working with Australian stamps for example, the position of the "A" relative to the Crown or multiple Crowns will tell you what it is. The one I find the hardest to distinguish between is the Australian watermark 8 and watermark 10 (my SG album calls them Watermark A and Watermark C). They both show a single crown over a single "A". The only real different is the width of the crown relative to the "A". Very difficult if you can only get a partial watermark showing.

Hope this helps.

Regards ... Tim.

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"Isaac Asimov once said if his doctor told him he was dying, he wouldn’t lament, he would just type a little faster. "

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parkinlot
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Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org

19 Mar 2012
11:12:20am
re: Finding The Watermarks of Stamps on Covers

I have never used a Signo-scope but have asked around and got several replies on the Virtual Stamp Club, all were not good. The biggest problem I heard about is that it is very easy to damage the stamp. The device requires a lot of pressure. If you don't put the stamp in correctly it gets damaged. Also, it is not possible to put in multiples or covers.

Bob

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rtvstamps
Members Picture


20 Mar 2012
11:15:22pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: Finding The Watermarks of Stamps on Covers

Hello friends!

Thanks for your replies. I am using my old program of Corel Photo9 with the following results:

1.- watermark and cancellations - good for single stamp.

Image Not Found

Image Not Found

2.- watermark - not good over covers.

3.- cancellations - good over covers

Image Not Found

Regards!
Rodolfo

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Author/Postings
Members Picture
rtvstamps

09 Mar 2012
03:09:39pm

Auctions - Approvals

Hello friends!

How you check the watermark in stamps adhered to the cover, specially of the Classic Era?

Regards!
Rodolfo

Like
Login to Like
this post

rtvmodeler.com/Stamp ...
Members Picture
amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
09 Mar 2012
03:16:15pm

Auctions

re: Finding The Watermarks of Stamps on Covers

There's a device called the Morely Bright that can sometimes do this. My experience with it was spotty at best.

I works on the principle of goop falling into the crevices where the watermark is. The goop is contained in a thin flexible plastic sleeve that's placed over the stamp and rubbed until the good has settled.

In practice, this also picks up all the various undulations of paper and the rises caused by flaps, etc. And the devices have a shelf-life of about a decade before they the goop is no longer sufficiently fluid to be useful.

For stamps whose watermarks would normally be easily discernible, it sometimes picked it up on paper; for many others, it just didn't work at all.

There are also some who will remove the stamp from the envelope, immerse it in fluid, and after determining the WMK, reattach it. I can't imagine doing that myself, but it is done.

David

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Save the USPS, buy stamps; save the hobby, use commemoratives"

juicyheads.com/link. ...
michael78651

09 Mar 2012
04:41:17pm

re: Finding The Watermarks of Stamps on Covers

Yeah, not an easy thing to do. You can try to apply watermark fluid to the top of the stamp and maybe you can see a watermark. You can shine a light through the envelope and hope that that might work. Neither of these will work so well if the paper the stamp is on is thick.

Like
Login to Like
this post

Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
10 Mar 2012
10:37:22am

re: Finding The Watermarks of Stamps on Covers

" .....spotty at best. ..."

Twenty years ago before the feeling in my fingers became a problem it was occasionally "spotty", for sure, I can only imagine the mess I would make with it now.

Like
Login to Like
this post

".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
Members Picture
musicman

APS #213005
10 Mar 2012
11:02:13am

re: Finding The Watermarks of Stamps on Covers

I own a Morley-Bright Inst-a-tector watermark detector;

They make 2 types - the roll-a-tector is the other....I have not used that one.

The Inst-a-tector works well for most countries except a few, one being US;

With slow and deliberate practice you can make it work on SOME US issues, however;

I have read comments by some who attempt to use it on stamps on cover, which I can't imagine it working since the watermarks are obviously on the backs of the stamps - and I HAVE tried;

I would recommend it to anyone who wished to identify watermarks, but if you want to use it mainly for US issues I would tell you that you MUST HAVE TIME AND PATIENCE to get accustomed to its 'peculiarities';

As David mentioned earlier, the sachet with the blue fluid does tend to 'evaporate' over time - I've had mine for approx. 6 yrs. now and its time to replace the sachet (thats what they call it)....M-B sells the replacements individually;

One thing I would LIKE to try but never have - and I do not know of anyone who has owned one - is the Signo-scope...its an electronic watermark detector. If anyone here has ever used one, I would certainly be interested in hearing from you!

Hope this info helps in some way....any questions, please don't hesitate to ask me - happy to answer all!




Randy

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this post
Tom

10 Mar 2012
01:12:47pm

re: Finding The Watermarks of Stamps on Covers

I have an Electronic water mark detector but cannot highly reccomend it. I still use lighter fluid and a water mark tray 95% of the time. When I have trouble with this method I use the electronic--I can then make out the watermark about 25% of the time..
It compresses the stamp and shines a light through it. Works good on those marks easy to see. The light has reostat that lets you change the intensity.
Final words, it works but not 100% and it is more bother than the lighter fluid methon.
Tom C

Like
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this post
Members Picture
auldstampguy

Tim
Collector, Webmaster
10 Mar 2012
04:07:54pm

re: Finding The Watermarks of Stamps on Covers

I have had quite good success scanning the stamp with a black background. Change the color to gray scale and adjust the contrast. It makes the watermark stand out quite well.

Tim.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Isaac Asimov once said if his doctor told him he was dying, he wouldn’t lament, he would just type a little faster. "

mncancels.org
Members Picture
Logistical1

10 Mar 2012
08:27:18pm

re: Finding The Watermarks of Stamps on Covers

Tim does is this method work when using detector fluid or a dry stamp?

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
auldstampguy

Tim
Collector, Webmaster
10 Mar 2012
08:49:45pm

re: Finding The Watermarks of Stamps on Covers

I have only tried it with a dry stamp. I have a house full of ladies with very sensitive noses and no interest in stamps so I haven't tried the chemical approach that works for many.

Regards ... Tim.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Isaac Asimov once said if his doctor told him he was dying, he wouldn’t lament, he would just type a little faster. "

mncancels.org
Stampme

18 Mar 2012
03:03:42pm

re: Finding The Watermarks of Stamps on Covers

Hi Tim,
Will you explain in a little greater detail about the scanning method you mention?

For example:

Is the stamp placed face down on the black background?

What dpi do you scan the stamp?

When you say you adjust the contrast, what does that mean specifically?

Are you doing anything else?

Thanks,
Bruce

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
auldstampguy

Tim
Collector, Webmaster
18 Mar 2012
10:26:34pm

re: Finding The Watermarks of Stamps on Covers

Hi Bruce,
I place the stamp with the back down on the glass bed of the scanner and place some black cardboard over the stamp. I set the resolution on about 300 dpi, that seems to work for me. I set the scanner on grayscale rather than color. Then after the scan is made, I adjust the contrast which adds to the black shades or takes away from the black shades. I find if I play with the contrast I can get enough of the watermark to show to enable me to work it out. Once you get part of the watermark coming out it is often a process of elimination to workout which of the watermarks it cannot be. By this I mean, if you are working with Australian stamps for example, the position of the "A" relative to the Crown or multiple Crowns will tell you what it is. The one I find the hardest to distinguish between is the Australian watermark 8 and watermark 10 (my SG album calls them Watermark A and Watermark C). They both show a single crown over a single "A". The only real different is the width of the crown relative to the "A". Very difficult if you can only get a partial watermark showing.

Hope this helps.

Regards ... Tim.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Isaac Asimov once said if his doctor told him he was dying, he wouldn’t lament, he would just type a little faster. "

mncancels.org

Immediate Past President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
19 Mar 2012
11:12:20am

re: Finding The Watermarks of Stamps on Covers

I have never used a Signo-scope but have asked around and got several replies on the Virtual Stamp Club, all were not good. The biggest problem I heard about is that it is very easy to damage the stamp. The device requires a lot of pressure. If you don't put the stamp in correctly it gets damaged. Also, it is not possible to put in multiples or covers.

Bob

Like
Login to Like
this post

"APS - AFDCS - GBCC - USSS - SCC - IPDA"

www.hipstamp.com/sto ...
Members Picture
rtvstamps

20 Mar 2012
11:15:22pm

Auctions - Approvals

re: Finding The Watermarks of Stamps on Covers

Hello friends!

Thanks for your replies. I am using my old program of Corel Photo9 with the following results:

1.- watermark and cancellations - good for single stamp.

Image Not Found

Image Not Found

2.- watermark - not good over covers.

3.- cancellations - good over covers

Image Not Found

Regards!
Rodolfo

Like
Login to Like
this post

rtvmodeler.com/Stamp ...
        

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