Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Regards ... Tim :-)
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I'd love to see some advertising stuff pre-1900, in case anyone was curious what to post first.
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Click below to see my finest cover - a colonial use penny black.
Further I have done research on this cover and it's contents are mentioned in historical references in the historical texts of Queens university when they were seeking royal ascent for their constitution. Very interesting Canadiana!
http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy246/penny-auction-stamps/Canada%20Available/Canada%20Covers%20Available/PennyBlackcover-1.jpg
(Modified by Moderator on 2012-02-05 13:55:38)
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Hi Marc,
Would you consider writing up the research you have done around this article as an article to be posted in our articles area?
Regards ... Tim.
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Sure, once I find the time! Currently working on completing my Masters and with 5 kids under 11 years old, time is precious. I'll get to it though.
Marc
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Would love to have seen it, but the photo is now missing -- ?
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Well just finished my Masters program today, and I am writing up the article for BNAPS. The photo can be seen below. 
I have discussed the cover with a number of notable collectors during the last NOVAPEX in Dartmouth and a number of professional philatelists in the UK and Canada.
Attached is a scan of the cover, which possibly originated from Canada. I understand that there are between 3 and 5 recorded used of a penny black on cover from Canada but I cannot find much research on those 5 covers.
In discussions with other philatelists, I am lead to believe that there are two possibilities for this cover as follows:
1/ The cover originated in Canada and was hand carried to the UK, where a penny black was affixed; I was able to find one reference from BNAPS which had assessed a similar cover as follows:
â€GREAT BRITAIN: 1841 entire to Edinburgh, franked with 1840 1d black, Plate Eight, C-H (SG2, Spec AS46), cancelled by black Maltese Cross, endorsed on arrival "Ardargie 5" and privately hand stamped "MAR" with "1841" and
"Colonial" on reverse, back stamped boxed Perth 5.3.41 and Edinburgh 5.3.41 arrival cds, is genuine.†This cover had the same “colonial†hand stamp applied by Mr. Young, possibly for filing purposes; or the second possibility
2/ The penny black was affixed in Canada and the letter was sent to the UK into their mail system
In order to prove that this cover was from Canada, I intend to continue research and prove that the stamp was applied in Canada (by verifying the whereabouts of the sender during the postmarked date-through newspapers, or or ship registers) and by verifying cancellations. Here is some basic information I have found to date:
The Cunard mail steamships from New York arrived in Liverpool on 14 Jan and 15 Feb, 1841. Neither could have brought this letter. It would also be good to identify the whereabouts of Mr. Gillespie on the 7th of February 1941 (date of cancellation). As a prominent member of society, this would provide great insight into the cover.
Queen’s University was established by charter granted by Queen Victoria on October 16, 1841. In that same year Upper and Lower Canada were unified as the Province of Canada (Queens University Charter. 1841 http://www.queensu.ca/religion/about/policies/GovMan_A1.pdf). Queen's University, established at Kingston, Ontario in 1841 was generally modelled on the democratic ideals of the older Scottish universities. Queen's University was founded on October 16, 1841, when its first principal,Thomas Liddell, arrived in Kingston from Scotland carrying the Royal Charter of Queen Victoria, which established Queen's College as an educational institution. The Prince of Wales presented a replica of the 1841 Royal Charter granted by Queen Victoria, which had established the university; the replica is displayed in the John Deutsch University Centre (http://www.queensu.ca/secretariat/RCharter.html ).
The sender was Alex Gillespie was a Presbyterian lawyer who acted on behalf of the Queens College (Queen's University, Volume I, 1841-1914: And Not to Yield. Hilda Neatby, Frederick W. Gibson and Roger Graham, 1978).Alex Gillespie was the Earl of Minto and the Chairman of the board for the Colonial Life Assurance Company (5 Gould Square London) (Sydney’s Emigrants Journal. 1849). Further, Alex was the Ordinary director of the Board of Directors for the Bank of British North America.Est 1836, incorporated by Royal Charter in 1840 (The Bankers Magazine and Statistical Register. 1856. J. Homans Publisher. Vol 10 pp 64). Young Alex went on to become Canada Life Assurance, Hamilton, Canada West. Elected 1860.
The recipient was William Young, W.S., 55 Great King Street. Town of origin Avarroch. William Young appears to have been a member of the Philosophical Institution (in 1846 anyway) and 55 Great King Street is now the address of the studio of a professional calligrapher.
Possible contents and reference to the cover in a series of letters from Gillespie: 
Queens College Neatby, H. (1978). Queens University. Vol 1. 1841-1917.pp,27-28.
Any information on the sender, receiver or cover would be appreciated to further develop this cover and it’s historical significance. Unfortunately, Mrs. Neatby is no longer with us. Please forward this to any contacts who have an interest in the early history of Queens university for their input as well. Thank you in advance.
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Just hit a goldmine of information. Queen's university historical database has records of letters to/from Gillespie on the subject of the constitution in the same time frame.
More to follow!,
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdb.archives.queensu.ca%2Finventories%2FQ%2FQU-Queen's_Letters.xls&ei=TmeIT9e6PMTV0QH2wInOCQ&usg=AFQjCNE6b02ZHaQEyUJp06aH_Ql0q93vkg
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Brian, it is so nice to see you back.
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Just found a reference to another Penny Black cover from Canada. It can be found at page 47 of the following: http://www.rfrajola.com/mercury/DHE2.pdf
Has anyone seen/heard of another PB cover from the "colonies"?
(Modified by Moderator on 2013-09-09 20:56:41)
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Marc - I am certainly a greenhorn when it comes to cover cancellations, but looking at your Penny Black cover I noticed the actual cancellation and I had never seen this type of cancellation in Canada covers?? But as I say I am not experienced in covers and cancellations. I think your perspective of the stamp being affixed in Great Britain would be a very viable conclusion given the cancel format. I would focus on that to see if this was ever used anywhere in Canada.
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05:42:39pm
Hello Marc,
None of the postal markings appear to be Canadian. The nearly indecipherable marking top left appears to be the Edinburgh arrival postmark. The red cancellation and dater were probably London, although I could be corrected in this.
I think you will find that the sender was in England at the time, staying at a temporary address. Furthermore, it appears to me that the "return address" is positioned incorrectly, carrying over the top fold - partly on the back and partly on the front. It is much more likely to be the recipient's (or a secretary's) file notation to use for further correspondence -- and not of the return address, but rather the content or substance of the correspondence. I also appears to be in another hand - the slant and flair are all wrong.
In any case, welcome back!
Roy
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I'll keep digging for more info. Thank you for the suggestions.
Likely going to send it to auction.
Marc
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I think Roy hit this right-on the nose after I re-looking at the cover. Appears someone put the return address on the cover in the event it was un-deliverable, and it just happened to be in Canada, but it was not posted from Canada. The interesting thing is, the return address had to be put on before the actual sheet was folded, and there are 2 different hand-writers on this cover. It is very possible that someone carried this to England from Canada to have posted there for delivery. The sender did not know the actual address and asked the carrier to determine it when they got there, hence the two different hand-writings. Just another observation for consideration !!!!
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It has been a while since I've seen any pre 1900 covers in the auctions. Have we run out of them or are you guys storing them away?
Regards ... Tim :-)
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re: Penny Black used in Canada
I'd love to see some advertising stuff pre-1900, in case anyone was curious what to post first.
Login to Like
this post
re: Penny Black used in Canada
Click below to see my finest cover - a colonial use penny black.
Further I have done research on this cover and it's contents are mentioned in historical references in the historical texts of Queens university when they were seeking royal ascent for their constitution. Very interesting Canadiana!
http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy246/penny-auction-stamps/Canada%20Available/Canada%20Covers%20Available/PennyBlackcover-1.jpg
(Modified by Moderator on 2012-02-05 13:55:38)
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re: Penny Black used in Canada
Hi Marc,
Would you consider writing up the research you have done around this article as an article to be posted in our articles area?
Regards ... Tim.
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this post
re: Penny Black used in Canada
Sure, once I find the time! Currently working on completing my Masters and with 5 kids under 11 years old, time is precious. I'll get to it though.
Marc
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re: Penny Black used in Canada
Would love to have seen it, but the photo is now missing -- ?
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this post
re: Penny Black used in Canada
Well just finished my Masters program today, and I am writing up the article for BNAPS. The photo can be seen below.
I have discussed the cover with a number of notable collectors during the last NOVAPEX in Dartmouth and a number of professional philatelists in the UK and Canada.
Attached is a scan of the cover, which possibly originated from Canada. I understand that there are between 3 and 5 recorded used of a penny black on cover from Canada but I cannot find much research on those 5 covers.
In discussions with other philatelists, I am lead to believe that there are two possibilities for this cover as follows:
1/ The cover originated in Canada and was hand carried to the UK, where a penny black was affixed; I was able to find one reference from BNAPS which had assessed a similar cover as follows:
â€GREAT BRITAIN: 1841 entire to Edinburgh, franked with 1840 1d black, Plate Eight, C-H (SG2, Spec AS46), cancelled by black Maltese Cross, endorsed on arrival "Ardargie 5" and privately hand stamped "MAR" with "1841" and
"Colonial" on reverse, back stamped boxed Perth 5.3.41 and Edinburgh 5.3.41 arrival cds, is genuine.†This cover had the same “colonial†hand stamp applied by Mr. Young, possibly for filing purposes; or the second possibility
2/ The penny black was affixed in Canada and the letter was sent to the UK into their mail system
In order to prove that this cover was from Canada, I intend to continue research and prove that the stamp was applied in Canada (by verifying the whereabouts of the sender during the postmarked date-through newspapers, or or ship registers) and by verifying cancellations. Here is some basic information I have found to date:
The Cunard mail steamships from New York arrived in Liverpool on 14 Jan and 15 Feb, 1841. Neither could have brought this letter. It would also be good to identify the whereabouts of Mr. Gillespie on the 7th of February 1941 (date of cancellation). As a prominent member of society, this would provide great insight into the cover.
Queen’s University was established by charter granted by Queen Victoria on October 16, 1841. In that same year Upper and Lower Canada were unified as the Province of Canada (Queens University Charter. 1841 http://www.queensu.ca/religion/about/policies/GovMan_A1.pdf). Queen's University, established at Kingston, Ontario in 1841 was generally modelled on the democratic ideals of the older Scottish universities. Queen's University was founded on October 16, 1841, when its first principal,Thomas Liddell, arrived in Kingston from Scotland carrying the Royal Charter of Queen Victoria, which established Queen's College as an educational institution. The Prince of Wales presented a replica of the 1841 Royal Charter granted by Queen Victoria, which had established the university; the replica is displayed in the John Deutsch University Centre (http://www.queensu.ca/secretariat/RCharter.html ).
The sender was Alex Gillespie was a Presbyterian lawyer who acted on behalf of the Queens College (Queen's University, Volume I, 1841-1914: And Not to Yield. Hilda Neatby, Frederick W. Gibson and Roger Graham, 1978).Alex Gillespie was the Earl of Minto and the Chairman of the board for the Colonial Life Assurance Company (5 Gould Square London) (Sydney’s Emigrants Journal. 1849). Further, Alex was the Ordinary director of the Board of Directors for the Bank of British North America.Est 1836, incorporated by Royal Charter in 1840 (The Bankers Magazine and Statistical Register. 1856. J. Homans Publisher. Vol 10 pp 64). Young Alex went on to become Canada Life Assurance, Hamilton, Canada West. Elected 1860.
The recipient was William Young, W.S., 55 Great King Street. Town of origin Avarroch. William Young appears to have been a member of the Philosophical Institution (in 1846 anyway) and 55 Great King Street is now the address of the studio of a professional calligrapher.
Possible contents and reference to the cover in a series of letters from Gillespie:
Queens College Neatby, H. (1978). Queens University. Vol 1. 1841-1917.pp,27-28.
Any information on the sender, receiver or cover would be appreciated to further develop this cover and it’s historical significance. Unfortunately, Mrs. Neatby is no longer with us. Please forward this to any contacts who have an interest in the early history of Queens university for their input as well. Thank you in advance.
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re: Penny Black used in Canada
Just hit a goldmine of information. Queen's university historical database has records of letters to/from Gillespie on the subject of the constitution in the same time frame.
More to follow!,
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdb.archives.queensu.ca%2Finventories%2FQ%2FQU-Queen's_Letters.xls&ei=TmeIT9e6PMTV0QH2wInOCQ&usg=AFQjCNE6b02ZHaQEyUJp06aH_Ql0q93vkg
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re: Penny Black used in Canada
Brian, it is so nice to see you back.
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re: Penny Black used in Canada
Just found a reference to another Penny Black cover from Canada. It can be found at page 47 of the following: http://www.rfrajola.com/mercury/DHE2.pdf
Has anyone seen/heard of another PB cover from the "colonies"?
(Modified by Moderator on 2013-09-09 20:56:41)
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re: Penny Black used in Canada
Marc - I am certainly a greenhorn when it comes to cover cancellations, but looking at your Penny Black cover I noticed the actual cancellation and I had never seen this type of cancellation in Canada covers?? But as I say I am not experienced in covers and cancellations. I think your perspective of the stamp being affixed in Great Britain would be a very viable conclusion given the cancel format. I would focus on that to see if this was ever used anywhere in Canada.
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BuckaCover.com - 80,000 covers priced 60c to $1.50 - Easy browsing 500 categories
10 Sep 2013
05:42:39pm
re: Penny Black used in Canada
Hello Marc,
None of the postal markings appear to be Canadian. The nearly indecipherable marking top left appears to be the Edinburgh arrival postmark. The red cancellation and dater were probably London, although I could be corrected in this.
I think you will find that the sender was in England at the time, staying at a temporary address. Furthermore, it appears to me that the "return address" is positioned incorrectly, carrying over the top fold - partly on the back and partly on the front. It is much more likely to be the recipient's (or a secretary's) file notation to use for further correspondence -- and not of the return address, but rather the content or substance of the correspondence. I also appears to be in another hand - the slant and flair are all wrong.
In any case, welcome back!
Roy
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re: Penny Black used in Canada
I'll keep digging for more info. Thank you for the suggestions.
Likely going to send it to auction.
Marc
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re: Penny Black used in Canada
I think Roy hit this right-on the nose after I re-looking at the cover. Appears someone put the return address on the cover in the event it was un-deliverable, and it just happened to be in Canada, but it was not posted from Canada. The interesting thing is, the return address had to be put on before the actual sheet was folded, and there are 2 different hand-writers on this cover. It is very possible that someone carried this to England from Canada to have posted there for delivery. The sender did not know the actual address and asked the carrier to determine it when they got there, hence the two different hand-writings. Just another observation for consideration !!!!
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